EMD and GE - Why so much anti GE feeling on the list? Light the blue touchpaper and retire

[Anonymous]

Hi again good people,
I see many BNSF grain trains go by the house West bound there is an uphill grade
I do not no what percent but I notice if two dash eights or nines are on the point
there are always two of the same on the rear.
But if there are two SD 70m's or SD 70 MAC's on the front there is never any
helpers/pushers/DPU's on the tailend.
I also see that if there are two dash eight's or nine's plus an SD 40-2 or an OAKWAY
SD 60 on the front there is very seldom any power at the rear.
These trains all average 111 to 114 cars each.

[M636C]

Guys,

Look at the GE Transportation Website!

GE can sell you almost any EMD spare part, from a complete, new 645F engine ("better than the original" they say -although that would be necessary) to an export type D31 traction motor (a type proposed by EMD but never sold).

GE have faced up to the fact that their locomotives can't be rebuilt, owing to inherent design features in the FDL engine. The cast crankcase can't be rewelded like EMD (and Alco) crankcases, and must be replaced. Heavy users (like Hamersley Iron) have already replaced the crankcases in their Dash 9 units.

But many early SD40s are still around, and can be upgraded at relatively low cost, and GE will do that for you, because it's good business.

Looking at the GE Rail website, it struck me that if GM sold EMD to GE, not much would change at Erie. They might offer a 710 engine option in the Evolution series, for those who prefer it! They can already support that engine! It might be necessary to modify either the engine or the GE alternator for compatibility.

GE locomotives may never replace all the EMD locomotives, which have a longer potential operating life due to their design, mainly the engine. But if you know that most customers don't want to rebuild your locomotives, why build them to last that long?

Peter

[Anonymous]

Oh yeah, Well I like Kangoroos Better then Llamas

Her's other Topics for debate we can start

Brown Soil Vs. Red Soil
Tulips Vs. Pansies
Green Grass Vs. Forest Green Grass
Louis Vuitton Vs. Van Deutch
PCB's Vs. Magnesium
Keopectate Vs. Immodium

Anyhting Esle i'm forgetting?

[Anonymous]

If you look on Thomson's web site under history you will find that they purchased the GE and RCA consumer electronics business from GE in 1988. Even though your DVD player has GE on it, it is not produced or marketed by General Electric. Unfortunately this is very common today, the brand name has no relation to the company actually producing the item.

[tree68]

Only slightly off-topic:

I'm fond of saying that the reason that Ford is the best selling American truck is because you have to replace them more often....

Don't know if that applies to GE locomotives or not....

[Anonymous]

2 responses: 1: GE vs. EMD and 2: Wabash vs. Toyota
I ,personally, have leaned towards GE based on several factors. The first encounter I had with GE was with their turbine engines that I worked on and flew with in the Blackhawk helo. Second would be with railfanning and not only the look, but the sound of a Dash-9. Third would be the vision of Jack Welsch which to me is just awesome.
As for the latter, you have to be ignorant or misinformed these days to think that if you buy an 'Amercan' car that it is actually built in America and that the price paid stays or (more so- comes back) to 'us'. This is a train forum and I don't want to turn it into something else but I will defend the truth. Toyota pumps millions into our economy- very little of which goes back to the 'homeland'. From research and developement at CALTY and Detroit to manufacturing plants all over the East, Midwest, Texas, Cali, Toronto to the thousands of jobs and suppliers these create and the quality produced by American workers to place Toyota at #2 really says something. I worked for GM before I came to Toyo and I couldn't believe the difference in quality. Though GM has tried to catch-up and has made great strides they still lack in many areas.
Having said that- if EMD is anything like it's car company then I'll take a GE any day!

[Anonymous]

GE Is JUNK I'll take an EMD anyday

THANK YOU VERY MUCH

DOGGY

[Kozzie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Limitedclear

Boy, this discussion has sure gone off on a tangent. The good news is an EMD is still worth 3 GEs in the global marketplace...LOL....

And I can back that UP!!

LC

Hey Limitedclear, thanks for pulling the thread back on track [:)]

Why don't GE get savvy and emulate EMD designs were possible? Seems to happen in the auto industry - although I realise that is a different ball game altogether..

Kozzie

[Anonymous]

Boy, this discussion has sure gone off on a tangent. The good news is an EMD is still worth 3 GEs in the global marketplace...LOL....

And I can back that UP!!

LC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by railwayray

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd

GE is NOT owned by Thomson. Thomson manufactures TVs and other consumer electronics for GE who sells them with the GE and RCA brands. GE is an American company , headquartered in Stamford Connecticut, with world-wide business.

This is similar to how the Ford Festiva and Aspire were manufactured by Kia of Korea and sold by Ford or the Chevy Tracker was made for GM by Suzuki.

Well then I was missinformed by a newspaper article I read about eight years ago that Thomson
Electric was baught by the French and two years later that same paper said Thomson Electeic baught GE and RCA and cosolidated them into one company but kept the respective names.
I Stand corrected, and apologize. Thank you for the info, and I'm not out to smeer anyone I
love everybody, I don't love some of the things we do but I have to be forgiving.
railwayray
Sagle Idaho

No your right- If you buy a GE DVD player- It sais GE Thomson, so does their website.

If you buy an RCA Walkman, it Says RCA Thompson, So does my Boom Box.

If you buy a Really High end stereo, it will Say GE RCA thomson,

Ge is the father compny that owns RCA, And Thomson is the multimedia Division of both of those companies.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by oltmannd

GE is NOT owned by Thomson. Thomson manufactures TVs and other consumer electronics for GE who sells them with the GE and RCA brands. GE is an American company , headquartered in Stamford Connecticut, with world-wide business.

This is similar to how the Ford Festiva and Aspire were manufactured by Kia of Korea and sold by Ford or the Chevy Tracker was made for GM by Suzuki.

Well then I was missinformed by a newspaper article I read about eight years ago that Thomson
Electric was baught by the French and two years later that same paper said Thomson Electeic baught GE and RCA and cosolidated them into one company but kept the respective names.
I Stand corrected, and apologize. Thank you for the info, and I'm not out to smeer anyone I
love everybody, I don't love some of the things we do but I have to be forgiving.
railwayray
Sagle Idaho

[oltmannd]

GE is NOT owned by Thomson. Thomson manufactures TVs and other consumer electronics for GE who sells them with the GE and RCA brands. GE is an American company , headquartered in Stamford Connecticut, with world-wide business.

This is similar to how the Ford Festiva and Aspire were manufactured by Kia of Korea and sold by Ford or the Chevy Tracker was made for GM by Suzuki.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by railwayray

QUOTE: Originally posted by Colin

GE is not French owned. I am sure that there are french investors in GE. Because it one of the best manged and profitable companies in the world.

But i question you saying it "French" owned because it sounds like a smear tactic given are very "strained" relation with the French government at this time.

Sorry to burst your bubble but GE and RCA are both owned by Thomson Electric, and
Thomson Electric is a French owned company!

Thompson Electric Inc is an Ohio electrical contractor who has done work for General Electric. They do not own GE nor are they French.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Colin

GE is not French owned. I am sure that there are french investors in GE. Because it one of the best manged and profitable companies in the world.

But I question you saying it "French" owned because it sounds like a smear tactic given are very "strained" relation with the French government at this time. Remember this company has contributed mightly to the advancement of railroad technology and founded by that great American Hero, Thomas Alva Edison.

Back that Train up, Mister

How did GE Found Thomas Edison?

And if your Implying about the lightbulb, GE helped produe the light bulb, but the idea was stolen, so to say, by a man named Carl or George or whatever Westinghouse.

Ge and Westinghouse were among the first producers of the Light bulb.

Ge still produces light bulbs today

Westinghouse Still produces lightbulbs today..

So i'm not sure how GE founded Thomas Edison, because if Ge hadn't.. Westinghouse would have been the sole make of lightbulbs..

I agree that Ge has been the inventor of many things;
It invented the Fluorescent light in 1936, and I eblieve they had a hand in inventing the Metal-arc lamo, the first HIDF lamps available lit the streets of Boston.

But how Did GE found Thomas Edison?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Colin

GE is not French owned. I am sure that there are french investors in GE. Because it one of the best manged and profitable companies in the world.

But i question you saying it "French" owned because it sounds like a smear tactic given are very "strained" relation with the French government at this time.

Sorry to burst your bubble but GE and RCA are both owned by Thomson Electric, and
Thomson Electric is a French owned company!

[Anonymous]

GE is not French owned. I am sure that there are french investors in GE. Because it one of the best manged and profitable companies in the world.

But I question you saying it "French" owned because it sounds like a smear tactic given are very "strained" relation with the French government at this time. Remember this company has contributed mightly to the advancement of railroad technology and founded by that great American Hero, Thomas Alva Edison.

[Anonymous]

GE is not French owned. I am sure that there are french investors in GE. Because it one of the best manged and profitable companies in the world.

But i question you saying it "French" owned because it sounds like a smear tactic given are very "strained" relation with the French government at this time.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lrcrocker

One point that all are missing is that EMD is not made in America, GE is made in Erie Pennsylvania, Let's keep some employment in this country and American Railroads that buy equipment that is not made in the U.S.A should look to non-american frieght shippers. Don't forget even Toyota is made in the U.S.A. but Lionel Trains is not.

I said it once and I'll say it again, GE is French owned! Where do the prfits go?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lrcrocker

One point that all are missing is that EMD is not made in America, GE is made in Erie Pennsylvania, Let's keep some employment in this country and American Railroads that buy equipment that is not made in the U.S.A should look to non-american frieght shippers. Don't forget even Toyota is made in the U.S.A. but Lionel Trains is not.

[edblysard]

Well, not quite true.
Toyota has assembly plants here, but not manufactoring plants. The sheet metal, seats, tires, engine block, windshield, almost every single piece on all of their vehicels are made over seas or in Mexico, shipped here, and then assembled. Pop the hood on your Iroc, and take a hard look, almost every metal casting in made in Mexico, and just about every plastic fitting is made in China or Taiwan.
Went looking at Harleys a few weeks ago with a buddy.
Guess what, just about every part on the Great American Motorcycle is made everywhere but in America.
The thing was a piece of junk.
Bud ended up buying a Honda 1800.
Built better, finished better, and at least they were up front about where it was made.
Ed

QUOTE: Originally posted by lrcrocker

One point that all are missing is that EMD is not made in America, GE is made in Erie Pennsylvania, Let's keep some employment in this country and American Railroads that buy equipment that is not made in the U.S.A should look to non-american frieght shippers. Don't forget even Toyota is made in the U.S.A. but Lionel Trains is not.

[M636C]

One of the problems Mt Newman had in 1975 was that they needed locomotives, but the builder wasn't responsive to complaints. If you say to MLW, for example, "you must do something about your engines, and stiffen up the camshaft mounts, and by the way can we have six more units by December?", they will give you the six units and think "the camshaft mounts can't be that bad or they wouldn't reorder".

What choice did Mt Newman have. To get the 3600 HP from EMD you had to buy a 20-645E3, about which everyone had heard bad stories. GE was pretty much an unknown quantity in Australia, with only a few Cooper-Bessemer engined units all dating from the early 1950s. I asked Max Ephraim from EMD if we could drop his new 645F into an Alco, and he was not keen on the idea, not the least having to tie it to a GE alternator. If we bought an AR16 as well, it would cost a lot more. And after all that we'd have an Alco with the mechanics of an SD50 (although at the time we thought that would be an improvement). Again, Hamersley took the risk and bought five SD50s (In fact short SD50S units), but they weren't much better, if at all than the Alcos, and they all migrated to Utah and were painted Red and Grey. (They were built in Australia, so it was their first visit to the USA). (I must visit them for old time's sake, and see how Soldier Summit compares to the Chichester Range)

Now, GE is king, and Dash9-44CWs are arriving all the time, so often that we don't know if there is a new order or if someone doubled up on the listing. But the road numbers just climb higher and higher.

But as Ed said, if we hadn't done anything, MLW would have kept sending us the same stuff. If we'd been really patient, MLW might have stayed in business, and we might be buying "Second Century" units. The GEs seem resistant to the engine room fires that the 636s tended to have from time to time, which left lasting marks on the paintwork (so you can tell they aren't happening) and the occasional unit that came in dead covered in its own oil after failing a turbocharger bearing seal doesn't seem to happen any more. It is all much more orderly, and probably cheaper to run, and the motive power superintendent can sleep at night without having to wake and plan a strategy to get the dead units off the main at 0300.

I think I'd buy GE now, just as I tried to in 1975, unless EMD could show that their units were more reliable and cheaper to run. They obviously convinced UP!

Peter

[Anonymous]

Now let me say I am not really trying to start a Ford vs. Chevy war. But I used those two knowing that someone would counter with just the opposite example. The same can be said with any company producing a product. Some products will be fine while others will be bad. Some of those products will slip by Q C and make it to market. Then people will base their opinion of the whole company upon one bad product. Only we are talking about railroads and locomotives.

[mudchicken]

Amen!, Ed.....[bow]

I have encountered GE reps and EMD folks, both with test locomotives & dynamometer cars. The GE folks left me with a bad taste in my mouth (excuses, hardly pro-active), the EMD folks were class acts. The EMD folks let us "in" on the new radial trucks while they were still in the initial design evaluationin the mid-1980's - Absolutely fascinating stuff.

Mudchicken

[edblysard]

Peter just touched on a point no one bothered to mention.
Ever meet a Alco rep, or a GE service rep?
Bet not.
Call EMD, and one will be on your property next day, ready to answer any question you have, from how to get the best mileage out of your motor, to what parts your diesel shop should and shouldnt keep on hand.
Need a tech manual?
Overnighted.
Ever have a GE service rep ride with you?
In seven years, three EMD reps have ridden on my job, one last year to check out how the "new" GP 15 and GP 20s (MK1500 and MK2000Ds, built by MK under license)worked on switching
duty.

EMD even sent a video to us on their SD70 to help train our engineers, because they knew we would be using UP power a to work UP"s grain trains.

Dosnt sound like a lot, but some times the small stuff does make a difference.
Ed

[M636C]

In 1975, I was working for Mt Newman Mining in Western Australia. The company had six locomotives on order from Commonwealth Engineering, the Australian MLW licensee. At that time we had 45 units, all C636 or M636C types (an M636C is an M636 with Alco Hi-Ad trucks and a bigger radiator). Engine reliability was poor, and in fact we took three of the new engines to keep the 45 existing units running, meaning that the new units were coming into service with rebuilt engines.

In desperation, I rang Goninan, and asked if they would sell us three GE 7FDL-16 engines for the last three new units. In fact they would not, but GE mounted a sales campaign you would not believe, and Hamersley Iron then bought three C36-7s, the first in the world, and hand built with experts from Erie on the floor in Broadmeadow.

When these arrived, I was really keen to see them. But they were like the comments that the US engineers have been making. They were pretty much standard US units, with big, but not that big, radiators. On these units, the dynamic brakes were mounted under the radiators like older U-boats. This might be fine in New England in winter, but in tropical Western Australia in summer, you must be joking. So they arrange to drain the radiators during dynamic operation so the water wasn't heated up. To achieve this, they fitted another little radiator up forward over the air intake, where it could be cooled by the blower.

In the cab, the air conditioner projected so far down that they fitted it with padding. Being 6'4'' tall, I got to know the GE air conditioners quite well.

Later units were better, and now there are only a few changes required of Dash-9s and similar to work in WA. But the Alco and MLW units had nearly everything we wanted back in 1975, including GE dynamic brakes with their own fan motors, but the 251 could not take the beating at 3600HP.

Nearly all those Alcos and MLWs are still running, but with 7FDL-16s and complete Dash 8 hoods on the old frame. But the GE engine can't be rebuilt if cracks appear in the casting, so although it is more reliable, it might not cost less than the Alco.

If GE approach the US market as badly as they first did in Australia, the reason for unhappiness is clear.

Peter

[Anonymous]

Wabash [:)]

Thanks for your comments. This is EXACTLY what I am trying unsuccessfully to get Kevin to see. Every company has a product they are not especially fond of and some that are good. We consistently hear of the poor quality of GE locos. Yet they are selling them. Even though the product is not a leader in quality they are a leader in sales. They are selling a poor quality product but are still in business. Just doesn't make any sense does it?
If Alco had been around the last few years they would have been selling locos and could have probally sold a ton of them. I remember being at the Arkansas Railroad Museum in the 90s and seeing the "Rent-A-Wrecks" that SP was using because they could not get hold of all the locos they needed. I remember they had trains setting in yards because they didn't have and couldn't get enought locos to pull them. Would Alco have sold locos in that time frame. Yes they would, if they were still here to sell them. But we had only 2 companies making locos then and they both were "backs to the walls" pushing them out the doors. Was GE a quality product then? A majority of the railroad engineers say "No". Is GE a quality product now? Again, a majority of the railroad engineers say "No". So why hasn't GE stopped making locos and closed its doors. Because railroads are buying them. Because railroads are buying them does that make GE a quality product? NO, it just means the railroads have only 2 choices and need something now. So they buy what they can get a hold of and use it. If a company closes its doors does that mean that is it a bad company or produced bad products. Again, NO. Alco sales were not great during the last years of operations but there were other problems within the company not related to sales. Some of the last locos Alco produced were excellent machines. Many are still around today doing the job they were intended to do, and doing it well. The Alco Century line of locos is a greately sought after prize amoung short lines and regionals. Why, because they were built well and do the job, and they are cheaper to buy. (And let's not forget the Century line was a good looking loco.)

[tree68]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevinstheRRman

OK So i stop saying ALCO in a bad way...

What was their best locomotive? and what was their worst locomotive...?.

Where did the PA fall in?

Funny you should ask - slide on over to this thread:
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6853
All About ALCOs!

[Anonymous]

OK So i stop saying ALCO in a bad way...

What was their best locomotive? and what was their worst locomotive...?.

Where did the PA fall in?

[tree68]

Jim pretty well summed up the ALCO issue - there have been reams written about it, but I don't want to spend the time rooting through my old magazines, etc.

The "long memory" explanation probably covers the "right product" point. Look at the problems EMD is still having as a result of the GP50. One bad product makes the whole line look bad. If you're hung up on the 50s problems, then EMD is not the right product, no matter how good the rest of the line may be.

The fact that ALCO quit on their own likely means they weren't making enough money to keep the plant open. If just a few more railroads had enough faith in the line to buy more, we might still be talking about the "big three" loco manufacturers, and not necessarily in the same order.