EMD and GE - Why so much anti GE feeling on the list? Light the blue touchpaper and retire

[Anonymous]

Ed......England is one thing...but Scotland and Wales.....truly once in a lifetime....Kodak will have to give dad some stock options HEHE......I would never have Amtrak would held for a yard transfer...I always thought they had the highball green straight through....priorty you know.....anyway thanks for the info..If you don't mind, I'll prolly come up with another Houston rail question in the future....Laterz....jon

[Anonymous]

Dear Kevin,
I must say that I resent your comments on Alco products. Firstly, they were little more than an inncacurate generaization of Alco products, just as is saying all EMD locomotives are shining examples of the locomoitve craft. Being an Alco fan, I greatly thank jhhtrainsplanes for his comments. Alco built the Big Boy, the FEF, the Challenger, the RS-3 (a locomotive preferred by one railroader who wrote a very good article in a Kalmbach publication, which I am sure you have read), the Century, and the PA (the PA's were not that bad--if theyhad been the railroads would have retired them), and much more.

In addition, I know some people who harbor anti-EMD sentiment as opposed to the sadly prevalent anti-GE sentiment. If railroads dislike GE locomotives so much, then why is the Dash-9 quickly becoming a new kind of pseudo-standard on many lines???? And if GE products are so bad, then why is the Dash-9 on the top ten list of locomotives in the Trains Magazine motive power issue?

Respectfully yours,
Daniel

[Anonymous]

I'm sorry Trainjunky if you resent my comments, But they stand. Period. End of sentance.

Selling 200 locomotives and Change? Thats Terrible! If Ford only Sold 300 Mustangs a year to people, they would Scrap the project. I looked up ALCO in the Dictionary and this is the definition

Railraods Coast to coast, Joe Welsh, Printed in 2003, published first Edition 1999


ALCO, American Locomotive Corporation, Builder of Train locomotives, Came out with Various types of locomotives, and I'm not going to name them all, but this is the important part.

QUOTE:
ALCO PA -
were highly acclaimed for their good looks, HOWEVER, Good looks are not everyhting ((Editors note: isn't it amazing how the real world comes to play in Trains and locomotives?)) The locomotive's sometimes troublesome power plant dogged ALCO, and only less then 300 PA's and Booster PB's were EVER sold. Though a Few could be found Opperating a US passenger Train into the late 70's

So what does that tell you right there? Like i said, It obviously was not you putting in orders for these Locomotives, and yes they may look good and swell and evedently looks count for everyhting in your world, which is fine- and I have no beef with that, But when people start having a craze over big Jalopys then it is time to you know, get wise.

I know in Montreal, the commuter serice to this date, STILL RUNS an EMD F series, number 1304, the Pride and Joy of the force, over all of its service years it has needed very little repairs, just updating. We pride GM's up here, Give me a GM any day, like i Said, if theres an GE at the head of the train, I'll take the day off.

If theres an ALCO at the heasd end of the train, Provided its not in a miliion peces, i'd drive that thing home! I'd just be careful not to sneeze while im in it in case it falls to bits.

So, Perhaps you can answer this then.. Why do we still have GMS from the 50's up here, but every single Alco we have is either A) rotting B) Busted C) unrepairable D) Just plain old JUNK.. Why arent those ones still around like John F is still around? Oh yeah we named the F John.

Actually, I never hear much praise about Baldwins, they had a pretty good DR series, although never showed up in montreal for the commuter service, Can't you all praise that one?

I'm sorry for those of you who attend mass at the church of Alco, But i'm entitled to what I think, and not only what I think, the evidence I have to back up my opinion.

If you purchased locomotives for a major Train company and you don't like my opinion, Or you still have an ALCO in service,....... Stop laughing thats not a joke... No really it wasn't... Please then you can pull me up..

Want to hear some ALCO jokes?

Whats the difference between a person who lacks money and an ALCO.. None, they are both broke.

Class 1 Railroads: ALCO SUCKS!!
Railfans: ALCO RULES!!

And perhaps thats the mere point i'm trying to illustrate.

Don't believe everyhting you hear, next thing you know someone will have you believing that smoking is good for you, Kind of like what the Tobbaco companies are saying.. don't tell me youre going to fall for that one?

Just doin't believe everyhting you see/hear.

Hear any GE's lately?

have a good night.

[Anonymous]

Oh and to answer your Next Question Ge's are mass produced Junk, that are produced way to fast, and are kind of like Windows Millenium Edition, Buggy and laggy.. They are Cheap, Possibly because maybe they are made of Cheap parts, and they break down way to much

Maybe GE should start making Cosmetics with its new LExan, but it should back out of the Locomotive industry while it's pride is intact, and the way thats going, it won't be much longer.

[Anonymous]

Mark-

Can we take from this that you owned (in whole or part) a short line?

Tell us more details...(please)

LC

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark W. Hemphill

Dear Kevin:

Actually I DID own EMDs. And GEs. And Alcos. (A long time ago, to be sure.) I bought them all, I sold them all, I worked on them all, I thought they were all interesting, I learned something from everyone of them, and they all had their place.

I hope not to offend you by saying this, but one has to be very practical in these matters, and to me, at the time, it was all an economic equation. My company preferred EMDs because they were common, inexpensive, easy, and customers liked them. But make no mistake: Alco made a very good product for some applications, particularly switch engines (ask Relco), and GE came to make a very good product too (ask any Class I).

Let me repeat this: no one in the railroad business who has their job on the line would be so foolish as to allow any known bias in the selection of locomotives. People can and do make mistakes of judgement. But who would be so stupid as to throw money off a bridge -- on purpose? Because that is what a bias is!

Please introduce me to that person, so I can catch the money. I need it!

[wabash1]

The Guys I know who drive and work on them trains, and who I get to talk to make it sound like there is no clear winner.


I would like to know how you drive a train? all i hear you saying is what somebody else is saying. and that you dont have first hand knowladge of how each loco is differant. or how each loco runs. the dash 9 was bought because of a power shortage and when you could buy 2 ge locos for the price of 1 emd the bean counters chose that route. the railroads are now buying emd units to replace the ge units that are done after only 5 years service. but yet i am still running 1974 model emd sd 40s. and making it in . but as kevin says if i have a ge on the point it is a long day and ussually get a emd off another train to get in with.

[Anonymous]

I like GE more than EMD. Why? I don´t know!
Possible: My first model was a GE!

When I start with US models and railroads in the mid 90´s the GE´s (last -8 and -9) looks very modern, the EMD´s looks older. Okay, for myself.

Now after years I realized that I like, and unlike, only railroads!

Today my biggest modelfleet are the EMD SD70´s in many variations (spartan cab (a Conrail unit - one of five eastcoast models I have), M-cab, I-cab (ATSF SD75I) and the MAC`s! And I have absolute more EMD´s then GE´s!
Each manufactor has his history. And when a manufactor was gone it becomes often a gloryous shine.

Alco is such a firm - as a builder of steamengines, Alco is my No.1 Bigboy, Challenger, FEF-3, yeah! - as a Dieselbuilder: No thanks! I have some UP Alco diesel but Alco isn´t such a glory for me!

So I agree with the article in th January issue of Trains magazine. The Also PA´s are overrated!!! It´s a nice locomotive but succesful?
And I don´t like the Pennsy paintschemes.

I hate the new EMD cab with that new nose. But when there´s a good model of a UP GE SD90AC-II I will buy this too! This engine is part of the modern UP history! And when I model the modern UP history this model is a must.
But I have no GP7 or GP9!

Okay this are models and in 1:1 I like each train that climbs Tehachapi or Cajon! Powered with GE or EMD. It´s impressive and wonderful

But the sound of a twocycle SD40 of 45 engine that starts a train in a siding at the UP line above Cajon was better san the four cicle 7FDL16 in a GE!

This only the sound!

[ironhorseman]

I don't think I can contribute anything to this debate which has turned into a farce. I think the origional question was "Why so much anti GE feeling...?"

Well, I'm only a train watcher. (I don't think I can call myself a railfanatic anymore, Kevin seems to be fanatical lately.) I do not build trains, repair trains, or drive trains. I haven't ever been apart of any railroad. Therefore, I don't know the inner-workings of locomotives and can't tell you which is better and why. But I can tell you the why there is so much anti-feeling for any particular brand of locomotive. It's called politics. I'm not talking about elected officials or the president. Politics is all about bias. Why one thing promoted over another for sentimental reasons is politics. When the question is asked: "which do like?" and the answer is "EMD" (for example) and when asked "why?" and the answer is: "just because," that's politics.

When other railfans are biased toward certain brands and they've never had any experience with other than hearing rumors that's politics. It's also rediculous. C'mon... who sits around and pours over railroad books full locomotive statistics and logistics? I can tell you I've tried to look at the raw data and I can't make heads or tails of it. How can I get a clear picture based on numbers alone? How can I make a fair assesment on numbers alone? I can't and I can't understand the person who does.

I base my likes on what I know and what I've been around. I liked the Santa Fe only because it was the railroad I saw the most in my life. I also like the BNSF now. I don't see how and don't expect a person who was born and raised in, let's say, upstate Maine to have any opinion or likes of the Santa Fe or BNSF.

I also like the Dash 9s because that's what's most frequently seen here everyday. And I also like that they're LOUD! I don't care if they're GE. I wouldn't care if they were built by EMD, Alco, or even Baldwin for that matter. You get my drift?

Part of the influence for buying Microsoft Train Simulater was because of that big orange BNSF Dash 9 on the cover.

I also bought Sandpatch because I like those Chessie colors. Also, they have a GE B30-7 and I don't know how accurate the model is, but I love the way it sounds. It seems to purr like a cat. Now I'm biased for the B30-7 for that reason alone when before I knew nothing about it, but I don't expect and don't care if anyone else is or isn't.

But you see, Kevin, looks DO count for more than what you think they do. People DO buy the best looking car. They buy the best looking cell phone with the most neat looking features. People go crazy of differnet looking computers. Turn on any TV show and only the good looking people get the acting jobs. Look at the reality shows. Only the good looking people get on there. Even the Avarage Joe show. There were more ugly looking candidates that didn't make the final cut. And winner is usually the best looking of all.

As far as locomotives are concerned I couldn't tell you the difference between and SD90MAC or an SD70M or an SD70MAC or an SD90M. You put all four of these together and beats the heck outta me which is which. Same way with the Dash 9 and Dash 8. I could care less. I do like the non-cab version of the Dash 8 but only because it's unusally. It's differnt from the same old thing everyday. I like Alcos probably for cosmetic appearances alone. I mean who doesn't like the RS-3? It was the most produced of their diesels1 and the longest lasting2. Trains.com had something on here a couple years ago of Alco RS-2/3s still in action today. I don't think I saved the video because I couldn't find it on m computer anywhere, but I did find the sounds of the RS-3 I saved.

It seems to me, Kevin, you are harboring some kind of hatred. I don't think you were high or drunk when you made those comments because your grammer and spelling were correct and intelligible, so it's gotta be something else.

Probably the reason for the breakdowns stems from the same reasons that applies to any machine: poor maintainence and failure to properly take care of the machine. It's not so much the manufactuer's fault as it is the user's fault.

I'm not from Missouri but I've adopted their slogan: SHOW ME. Show me, Kevin, why GE so full of junk off the factory floor. You just telling me it's so doesn't make it so. Where's your stats? Where's your data? What are your sources? What is your proof? Show me your references. I've learned in college you are no good unless you can prove what your saying. I know, I've written countless research papers every semester I was there. I also have a degree in criminal justice. In court you are worthless unless you can prove what you saying is true. Otherwise, Kevin, you'd make a great political science major.

1(The Encyclopedia of Trains & Locomotives, C. J. Riley, 2000.)
2(video and article from trains.com)

[dharmon]

Ahh yes...a day without an emotional GE vs. EMD vs. Alco vs. Lima vs. Baldwin vs Morris Kanoedson vs. Godzilla vs. Megalon debate is a like a day without air........

Heck, I could just stand in the hallway at work and hear the exact same argument, except its....

Chevy vs. Ford
McDonalds vs. Burger King
Coke vs. Pepsi...

The list goes on and on.....

So since none of y'all have produced empirical, un deniable evidence that one is better than another ..the collective y'all can borrow one of Ed's clean socks and stuff it.........

And for the record...Lockheed makes the best planes and Allison makes the best engines, but Hamilton Standard can keep thier stinkin props...

[Mookie]

And Mookie is still wondering what "Light the blue touchpaper and retire" means!

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

And Mookie is still wondering what "Light the blue touchpaper and retire" means!

Oh yeah...thanks, I meant to ask that too.....

....cause I want to go burn alot of it if it means I can retire now!

[Mookie]

you can't retire - you are way behind me and I ain't goin' yet!

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

you can't retire - you are way behind me and I ain't goin' yet!

5 years 4 months and when I leave today, 18 days.

Then I may have to go find a real job......Walmart maybe ..."do you want a sticker little kiddie?"[:)]

Might go to the airlines...thinking about getting a teaching certificate........who knows

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

you can't retire - you are way behind me and I ain't goin' yet!

5 years 4 months and when I leave today, 18 days.

Then I may have to go find a real job......Walmart maybe ..."do you want a sticker little kiddie?"[:)]

Might go to the airlines...thinking about getting a teaching certificate........who knows

I could use a "good humor" man!

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie

you can't retire - you are way behind me and I ain't goin' yet!

5 years 4 months and when I leave today, 18 days.

Then I may have to go find a real job......Walmart maybe ..."do you want a sticker little kiddie?"[:)]

Might go to the airlines...thinking about getting a teaching certificate........who knows

I especially like the Wal-Mart man - or - my next job - a professional train watcher - keep every thing on the straight and narrow!

[rrnut282]

dharmon
Airlines? The enemy! Are you crazy?? The only thing worse than working for a RR is an airline. The only thing seniority at an airline tells you is how far you have to drive the U-haul to your job tomorrow. And it hasn't improved since I left.

[Anonymous]

Well, I fully intend to post a Brief post mortum on this subject before i Give up, because this subject has become more then tiresome.

Apparently a lot of you like things that break down a lot. Being a Railfan, I suppose, and it makes perfect sense too, That when a locomotive breaks down, you really couln't care, And I understand that!

But as a Railfan, Yuo van't base everyhting you do on looks, Or you can't believe everythign you hear, If you choose to personally Believe in Propoganda, thats Great! Really- I don't care, But it's your lose when the truth comes to surface, you can either agree or deny it, which most of you have chosen option B

Again, Alcos are dead, and I'm not here to pull a Lazerous special. Anyhting that breaks down in my mind isn't worth a Tin shaza. I have a 2001 Chevy Impala, white. It has never broken down. My Girlfriend has a 2001 Chevy Malibu, white. It has never broken down, although I just changed the break pads. GM has more then proven itself to me.. Ge make Blenders of Locomotives.. they always sound like they are dying.. Alcos, although i'm not sure what they sounded like.. Just died

I'm not sure how much longer I want to go on my post mortum, so i'll quickly bring it to a hault, and then after I won't even look at this thread anymore,. because the people who have time to answer this statement, really have too much time. on their hands. I can't be bothered with hearing this anymore, Beleive what you want to believe in, and thats what it boils down too, i'll withdraw before the name calling starts.

I've heard what you have to say, I wasn't drunk or stoned, and I can't even believe i'm dignifying that statement with a response! So really, theres no pojnt in arguing anymore.

Post mortum finished, 10-4 over and out.

[Anonymous]

Wanna hear a story of why G.E.'s are peices of junk?
Ok, Amtrak train 303, the "Anne Rutlage" from Chicago to St. Louis to Kansas City, MO had G.E. Gennesis P42-9 #65 on the point. Just outside of Chicago their G.E. crapped out on 'em! Their air compressor was malfunctioning, this caused the brakes on the P42-9 to lock up, then the computer system started to freak out, almost shut down the entire locomotive! They kept the computer from shutting the unit down to keep the HEP running for the passengers, then they had to isolate the P42-9. Finally they had to bring in an Ex. Mo-Pac, Union Pacific GP38-2, this unit was on the point almost the entire time from Chicago. The 303 showed up 5 hours late in St. Louis! But, at least it showed up, thanks to an EMD. Once again an EMD comes to the rescue of a G.E. They switched locos at St. Louis, and once again were off to KCMO with an Amtrak unit (another P42) on the point. And that folks, is why G.E.'s are peices of JUNK!![}:)][}:)][;)][banghead][soapbox]

[Anonymous]

And at another time a GE rescue an EMD powered train............

Fact is: The director of motive power in the head office of UP or BNSF made a decision for a model because of pure facts. Not the look or the sound or the "love" of someone for a GE or EMD are the reasons.

The facts the regulate the decision are:

Price
Life circle costs
Power
Tractive effort
Reliable
Replace existing locomotives (lets say 2 new replace 3 older)

So in one time GE is the winner and in another time EMD!

UP lease the SD70M´s not because of the look or the sound and BNSF do the same with the Dash 9´s! And the opposite side is NS with the huge fleet of the unique 4.000 hp Dash 9´s

GE and EMD, as BLI, build good locomotives and a locomotive that will have no problems ever is the "MISSION IMPOSSIBLE"!

[Anonymous]

Mookie

Light the blue touch paper and retire is the warning printed on fireworks in the UK - we kinda use it as a shorthand to say I've made a controversial statement, now I'm gonna stand back and watch the bang. (By the way, the controversial statement was the one about locos - the other subject just came up on the news as I was posting and for those of you with no sense of humour fireworks has nothing to do with the sub thread that developed - please don't even think about flaming me for that)

[Anonymous]

mookie,

Sorry, half an explanation - retire is in the sense of step backwards - I think they probably call it a negative advance in the army but when you retire you are retreating)

[Mookie]

I like that! Not a big fan of fireworks, but do like the warning! And it does seem appropriate for the subject! Plus it keeps the forum from getting to stale! A good, friendly go-at 'em keeps this from being just a Martha Stewart get together!

Mookie

[edblysard]

Hey,
Dont pick on Martha, she make a really mean chocolate cake!
Ed[:D]

[Anonymous]

Ironhorseman - I look down on your attempts to get me aggrivcated. Clearly in your post, you tried to get me rilled up, But thats the old Kevin, and after recent battles, I swore not to get involoved in stuff like that. Your post is as if we were in a bar room, and you jsut pushed me and told me to "get mad." No I won't, I have some sort of self control these days. You should be ashamed for even trying to get me angry, because your attempts have done nothing but fail. I will not push back, I will solely walk away.

I pitty you if this is all you spend your time doing.

Maybe in the future, you wouldn't mind being a little less credulant.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Hey,
Dont pick on Martha, she make a really mean chocolate cake!
Ed[:D]

And today on Martha Stewart Living, we'll be learning how to make weponry from ordinary items you might find in your cell.....and how to dress up that cell for spring on a limited budget.....

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 45144

Mookie

Light the blue touch paper and retire is the warning printed on fireworks in the UK - we kinda use it as a shorthand to say I've made a controversial statement, now I'm gonna stand back and watch the bang. (By the way, the controversial statement was the one about locos - the other subject just came up on the news as I was posting and for those of you with no sense of humour fireworks has nothing to do with the sub thread that developed - please don't even think about flaming me for that)

You know, all the time I've spent drinking beer and carrying guns with Brits ...not usually at the same time..but sometimes....I've never heard that expression....especially since it was a Brit (sigs guys coincidently) that taught me how to make my first MRE heater bomb to annoy the French troops.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

how to make my first MRE heater bomb to annoy the French troops.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jhhtrainsplanes

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

how to make my first MRE heater bomb to annoy the French troops.

Dan [8D]


Hmmm, interesting, send me an email, I need to know more.