eBay continues to be a fairly good source for model railroad equipement. But, it's like anything that you buy from a private seller. Caveat emptor - let the buyer beware. I've had good luck, and will only deal with people that have a very high percentage of positive feedback. Developing a good relationship with a LHS that specializes in trains has helped immensely, as well. They give a bigger discount to regular customers. The downside is that they are about 60 miles away. I've developed the relationship to the point that when I need something, I just call and since they have my debit card information on file, they just bill it and ship it.
The other points about the high cost of the hobby are true, sadly. A lot of it is the high cost of oil, which is used to make everything in our hobby. And if it's not made from oil, it's shipped using oil. But, my advice is, shop around. If you're talking about a high end locomotive, treat as if you were buying an expensive appliance or TV. Great deals can also be found from vendors at train shows. A lot of them buy in bulk from the manufacturers, so many times they are noticeably cheaper than MSRP.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
One good hobby is sufficient. The rest are just creative ways to enjoy a leisure time.
beegle55 wrote:This post is really getting big.
It is a fact that very few of us can have what we desire most. The wise among us desire less and less as they learn what it all means.
You can be content with your lot, or you can choose to be miserable and envious. If you want happiness in life, and certainly in this hobby, you should work hard to enjoy what you have.
My mother taught me that.
Safety Valve wrote: It seems that MR may be failing it's customer base by not indicating the cost overall of a "Finished" layout or perhaps the cost needed to get one train rolling. Perhaps there needs to be some articles produced to remind the new Hobbyists who want to participate the idea of roughly how much it will cost in the first year. I think we should be working on that a little more. Too many articles and videos are full of an attitude that we can throw down a stack of lumber (Few hundred dollars), spools of wire, decoders, track, switches, switch machines etc etc etc etc etc before actually getting a complete train to run. Let's see if we can use a sort of a "ABC" guide to those who may not enjoy a strong financial position in life shall we?
It seems that MR may be failing it's customer base by not indicating the cost overall of a "Finished" layout or perhaps the cost needed to get one train rolling. Perhaps there needs to be some articles produced to remind the new Hobbyists who want to participate the idea of roughly how much it will cost in the first year.
I think we should be working on that a little more. Too many articles and videos are full of an attitude that we can throw down a stack of lumber (Few hundred dollars), spools of wire, decoders, track, switches, switch machines etc etc etc etc etc before actually getting a complete train to run.
Let's see if we can use a sort of a "ABC" guide to those who may not enjoy a strong financial position in life shall we?
While I concur with this thought, I suspect that the editors of MR are afraid of publishing any honest figures (beyond the occasionally quoted $50-$100 per square foot) for fear of scaring most of the newbies away. After that simply awful, throw-back to the 1950's, "$500 Layout" article in MR a few years ago, I don't think they really want to illustrate the high basic costs of finishing out a conventional 4x8 plan to a reasonable level of quality. Even using something like a set of WS 4x8 layout kits necessitates a cash outlay of at least $1000 up front...and maybe a couple of thousand more before it can really look good. Go to the next size up and, as I've pointed out here earlier, your in the ten grand range before you know it. Little wonder that you see so few hobbyists get beyond the basic Plywood Pacific stage.
I've actually been in the LHS when a newbie came in, MR in hand, and asked how much it would cost him to replicate the 4x8 project layout that was carried in that particular issue. The owner kinda hemmed and hawed but the guy insisted on a total price for all materials. I think the owner quoted a least $1,500 and the guy, visibly shocked, stood still in silence for a moment or two, then turned on his heels and left without another word.
CNJ831
Don't feel bad about a few mistakes, Squeaky. I graduated from MIT, and I fried a couple of decoders before I got the whole thing figured out, too.
It's not a short learning curve. I suppose that "paying for this hobby" includes the time invested, too. Despite my background, I've found that the things which give me the most satisfaction are the parts of the hobby least related to my background - scenery and weathering. I'm having a blast with some rock molds and a big jar of Hydrocal. I've now got a workroom full of tiny paintbrushes (hmmm, I first typed "painbrushes") and artists' acrylics. I've swapped e-mails with the people who make Instant Rust, a superb product for MR. Today, I never powered up the layout, but I spent a while shaping foam and making a card-stock mockup of a truck shed for my "Motley Fuels" company off in the corner of the layout. It will be months before this is a genuine model, but that's what hobbies are for.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
SqueakyWheels wrote:From DC, to DCC, and back now to DC. Yes, strange isn't it?Bout ready to throw in the towel.Last Christmas my mother and sister (I am 47 by the way) decided to buy me a train set so I would have something to do, since I am kind of retired (mental problems).They bought me the Model Power Twilight Express, I think that is what it was.I didn't have the heart to tell them that they bought me a box full of junk. Anyway, I pursued. With having NO money, mom popped for some of the things I needed, like plywood and lumber to build a 4X8 layout for the railroad. She never realized how expensive this was going to be.In the meantime, I did come into some money, and decided to go with DCC. Not only am I having problems with things I caused myself, but with decoders, and locomotive problems- BOY, I'll tell 'ya. Anyway, I am back to running just straight DC, until I get parts/decoders for the DCC equipped stuff.And the greif is getting to me. How much money is to be wasted? Guess I need to learn about growing plants, and give up HO railroad.It is something that I don't absoulutely have to have.Where is the fun? Writing a check for another $100.00?Am on the verge of just breaking it all up, calling it a loss, and forgetting about the whole deal.Who Cares?
It is not a hobby where you "Instantly" finish a trainset on one night and running the next.
DCC is a small computer using binary language to communicate with other small computers onboard locomotive, switches and the like. Once you study and learn what goes where and why (How) you will understand it. Takes alot of time.
I myself in the hobby for 30+ years since that first trainset at christmas and I gotta tell ya, if I had a dollar back for all the junk or problem purchases I made in all that time I'll be rich.
It's not about the money. It's about finding good place for the train, buying the trains you want and learning skills such as carpentry and scenery.
Ultimately the hobby should be a pleasurable journey and one that keeps you free from stress and out of the hospital. When you go towards the train room you should be filled with anticipation and ready to "Play" for a short while or a evening; not experiencing negative feelings or considering getting out all together.
Today's prices im paying for the trains is monster. But where I am with a supportive spouse and a few good hobby stores along with the net I think these are the best of times. I am constantly planning, construction and working on a operations plan.
Yes I have that expensive DCC super chief, but I dont want to buy another DCC system again, if ever. I learned the other day with the limitations of my power (Digitrax 20 amp) I will have three districts, 8 amp on the main, two 5 amps one for yard and other for branch line to coal mine eventually.
The power example I show here took me about 4 months to decide upon and set in stone for the future layout. It did not happen overnight and came with some anxiety regarding the capacity of house wiring in my home.
You are an elder and I should be minding my manners, with that in mind; if you cannot handle the heat during the meal you are cooking, consider another less stressful meal.
Try to start with one 4x8 of good quality, a locomotive that you like capable of taking 22" radius, quality rolling stock... maybe 8 with a caboose or so... decent power pack and some scenery. If you looked to keep metal wheels, kaydee couplers and adjusted the rolling stock/track to reduce derailments you might actually enjoy the humble beginning of a empire as I did.
Best of luck!
andrechapelon wrote:Does your friend insist on buying everything new? I know a boat for sale with a Chevy 350 in/outboard for $1200 (it's not mine). It's used, but it works. It's right across the road from our cabin.
His wife's a dentist, and the whole array of nautical equipment looked pretty new to me. The engine compartment was cleaner than my kitchen. The Zodiac, by the way, was actually a hand-me-down from a relative, and he got it for the bargain price of 1 kilobuck. He was talking about the store price for these things. In fact, the 3K figure was for a clone, not a genuine Zodiac.
andrechapelon wrote: I did quite a detailed analysis of 80's pricing compared to today (and earlier years) and tried to post it. Unfortunately, my internet connection went down and I lost everything. I AM not going to redo the whole thing. Prices today are not out of line. Without going into detail, the Santa Fe 3751 4-8-4 (BLI) I bought in 2004 cost roughly $143 in constant dollars (1982-84 being the base and $270 being the actual price paid). A Spectrum 2-8-0 cost me the equivalent of $38 and a Spectrum USRA light 4-8-2 the equivalent of $55 plus change.. I did quite a bit of price checking. Yeah, there was some cheap stuff back then, but most of it was junk (as is most cheap stuff today). As far as Athearn goes, AHC, in 1979 (May RMC) was selling GP-9's for the current equivalent of around $37. Athearn's current MSRP is $44.50 and that's comparing a discounted 1979 price to MSRP. A PFM SP M-4 2-6-0 was going at J&M for $99.95 (1979 price) or the equivalent of around $269 today. They actually sell for less on eBay generally. I paid $135 for a Westside GS-8 around 1975. The current equivalent price would be around $490 ($220 over the price of the BLI loco). GS-8's generally go now for between $350 and $400. The problem is not prices. The problem is that there is at least an order of magnitude more stuff available now than then. I've said it before and I'll say it again. This is the golden age. Enjoy it while it lasts. Incidentally, you can still get a low (really low) end steamer today in HO for $25. It's a piece of , but if you insist your trains be cheap, be my guest. Harry Truman said, "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen". If people can't stand the prices, they can always stay out of the hobby. I had a paper route in the late 50's/early 60's. Netted about $30/month. A Varney Casey Jones cost me 1/2 a months pay. I have no sympathy for the whiners.
I did quite a detailed analysis of 80's pricing compared to today (and earlier years) and tried to post it. Unfortunately, my internet connection went down and I lost everything. I AM not going to redo the whole thing.
Prices today are not out of line. Without going into detail, the Santa Fe 3751 4-8-4 (BLI) I bought in 2004 cost roughly $143 in constant dollars (1982-84 being the base and $270 being the actual price paid). A Spectrum 2-8-0 cost me the equivalent of $38 and a Spectrum USRA light 4-8-2 the equivalent of $55 plus change..
I did quite a bit of price checking. Yeah, there was some cheap stuff back then, but most of it was junk (as is most cheap stuff today). As far as Athearn goes, AHC, in 1979 (May RMC) was selling GP-9's for the current equivalent of around $37. Athearn's current MSRP is $44.50 and that's comparing a discounted 1979 price to MSRP. A PFM SP M-4 2-6-0 was going at J&M for $99.95 (1979 price) or the equivalent of around $269 today. They actually sell for less on eBay generally.
I paid $135 for a Westside GS-8 around 1975. The current equivalent price would be around $490 ($220 over the price of the BLI loco). GS-8's generally go now for between $350 and $400.
The problem is not prices. The problem is that there is at least an order of magnitude more stuff available now than then.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. This is the golden age. Enjoy it while it lasts.
Incidentally, you can still get a low (really low) end steamer today in HO for $25. It's a piece of , but if you insist your trains be cheap, be my guest.
Harry Truman said, "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen". If people can't stand the prices, they can always stay out of the hobby.
I had a paper route in the late 50's/early 60's. Netted about $30/month. A Varney Casey Jones cost me 1/2 a months pay. I have no sympathy for the whiners.
Andre - You are throwing out a lot of numbers but few seem to correspond to the real ad prices (CPI adjusted or otherwise) I am coming up with and the period MR magazines are right in front of me! Your Athearn GP-9 in 1979 went for under $10 and, according to the CPI figures for then and now, should currently sell for about $26. In fact, the entire Athearn line, which was then the standard of the industry and certainly not considered junk, sold for between $9.69 and $9.99 !
You compared high-end BLI's steamers with prices adjusted backwards to the early 1980's and claimed parity...but there was no high-end steam back then selling for around $150. Save for Rivarossi, they were all far cheaper. Steam engines by Mantua and Bowser, which again were pretty much the industry standards of the time, were all priced at $50-$60 or less.
As to brass, you simply can not compare the original issue prices against second hand resale. That's apples against oranges. Be honest here and try comparing the original purchase price of your 30 year old Westside GS-8, adjusted by the CPI to todays' value, to that of some similar 2006 model of the same size and wheel arrangement. I'm willing to bet that the current issue price will probable be in the $1200-$1500 range.
Concerning the order of magnitude more items available today, yes, the selection is far greater but my guess is that the total numbers available are way down. Runs consisting of just a few thousand individual items, at most, are done purposely so that demand will exceed supply. Within a few weeks they become unavailable. In the past, if I wanted a particular locomotive I could usually find it available through the LHS for at least several years.
Regarding the Truman quote, be assured that there are a lot of fellas both leaving the hobby or passing on joining it because of current pricing. Many of my hobbyist friends have all but ceased to make new purchases and I haven't bought anything significant, myself, in over a year. We are all working from our stored-up stock of models bought in the past. For years brass had the same battle cry, "If you can't afford it, step asside!" Do you see where brass is today? Watch out or in the not too distant future you'll look around and find the hot kitchen all but empty. This may be the Golden Age, or it may just be the early evening twilight of the hobby.
MisterBeasley wrote:Yesterday, I was out on a friend's boat. We got to talking about prices. He mentioned three thousand dollars, and that was just for the little rubber Zodiac that takes you from his boat in shore to the beach. No thanks, I'll stick to my more economical hobby.
Does your friend insist on buying everything new? I know a boat for sale with a Chevy 350 in/outboard for $1200 (it's not mine). It's used, but it works. It's right across the road from our cabin.
Tell your friend to try Uncle Henry's http://www.unclehenrys.com/ . Boat ads: http://www.unclehenrys.com/Classifieds/Search/Results.aspx?SearchID=12026491&isHistoricSearch=N. Boat prices are all over the place depending on age.
They also have weekly book of printed ads. Uncle Henry's is a New England tradition (at least since 1969 ) and you can find just about anything you want (just like at Alice's Restaurant - 'cepting Alice of course).
To keep this thing on topic, one could buy brass junkers/near junkers or just old and recondition them like this guy: http://markschutzer.com/ . Enjoyment with everlasting challenge.
Andre
skiloff wrote:CNJ, you also failed to account for my example from 1988 or 1989. I bought my first "high end" engine for $90 (I remember it well, it took me three months to save up for it working at the fast food joint). I just purchased a brand new Kato for $75ish. Obviously the new Kato is WAY better than that old thing that drove me crazy trying to keep it from stalling. Some things may be different, but others aren't. And I think most people would agree that the quality has gone way up.
CNJ also seems to forget that, in the last 5 years especially, there has been an incredible explosion in the variety of new items offered. I mean really new items, not just the same thing in a new paint scheme. Not only that, but as you say, the quality has gone way up.
As an example, old timers like myself remember the clunky Walthers heavyweight passenger cars, which were a combination of stamped and cast metal sides and ends with wooden floors and roofs (the ends of which needed to be shaped by hand). Contrast them to the new plastic heavyweights. Walthers also makes lightweights, which they didn't back in the "good old days".
There's more, but I'll let others point it out (like BLI/PCM singlehandedly revolutionizing the locomotive market).
CNJ831 wrote: andrechapelon wrote: dieselfreak500 wrote:I agree,the prices are getting out of hand. I well remember buying Athearn locos for 20 to 30 dollars each and not all that long ago. Now there going for what 50 or 60? If the quality goes up sure i'll pay more but a lot of stuff isn't. Mike H. You wuz ROBBED at $20-30. My first Athearn engine was a Hi-F (rubber band) drive F-7. Cost me all of $6.95 plus tax. That was in 1957. A BB (actually the boxes were yellow way back then) box car kit was $1.29. 'Course that F-7 ran like , was equipped and with those worthless horn-hook couplers. IIRC, the geared GP-9 sold for about $10 (about $70 or so in today's dollars). So Athearn locos (exclusive of Genesis) go for $50-60? Near as I can figure factoring in inflation, the new Athearn RTR locos would have cost about $7-8 in 1957 had they been available. The BB (they were yellow, IIRC, back then) box car kit cost a bit over $8 in todays dollars. Interestingly enough, an Athearn BB 40 ft. steam era boxcar kit currently carries a $7.25 MSRP. I'll admit the RTR equivalent steam era boxcars go for about double, but then you're paying for someone else to assemble it. Let's suppose we go top shelf. Sound equipped Genesis. The first HO loco I ever bought with my own money was that POS F-7 in SP Black Widow and it cost me $6.95. We'll call it $7. The MSRP on the sound equipped Genesis SP F-7 A unit is $205 (well, actually it's $204.98, but why quibble?) http://www.athearn.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATHG10271. That's $29.50 in 1957 dollars, or about $10 less than a PFM brass Santa Fe 1950 class 2-8-0 was going for at the time. The problem with many of the folks is that they are attempting to make things look like relative pricing hasn't increased much, if at all over the years. In doing so, some are quoting prices from 40-50 years back without researching what actually happened with hobby pricing in the intervening years. The fact is that the early 1980's marked the historical low ebb in HO pricing, if those interested in the subject would only look into it more seriously. In the 1950's, prices were still coming down from their historical peak of just before the war. But twenty years ago you could buy any Athearn locomotive for $16.00 or even $12.00 if you didn't care about road name, while Athearn freight cars ran as little as $1.99 . By example, see AHC & Standard Hobby ads in the Dec. '85 MR and note, as well, that even cheaper prices prevailed just a couple of years earlier. In 1985 low-end steamers could be had for $25-$35 and, save for the always outrageous Rivarossi's, even the best widely available examples commanded less than $100 , with many brass steamers no more than double that figure (I know, I bought them!). So, when attempting to make a case for today's pricing only being in step with inflation, these are the figures you should go by, not those of half a century ago. Now I don't know about the rest of you but salaries in my region sure haven't tripled or quadrupled for the average man in the past 20 years. CNJ831
andrechapelon wrote: dieselfreak500 wrote:I agree,the prices are getting out of hand. I well remember buying Athearn locos for 20 to 30 dollars each and not all that long ago. Now there going for what 50 or 60? If the quality goes up sure i'll pay more but a lot of stuff isn't. Mike H. You wuz ROBBED at $20-30. My first Athearn engine was a Hi-F (rubber band) drive F-7. Cost me all of $6.95 plus tax. That was in 1957. A BB (actually the boxes were yellow way back then) box car kit was $1.29. 'Course that F-7 ran like , was equipped and with those worthless horn-hook couplers. IIRC, the geared GP-9 sold for about $10 (about $70 or so in today's dollars). So Athearn locos (exclusive of Genesis) go for $50-60? Near as I can figure factoring in inflation, the new Athearn RTR locos would have cost about $7-8 in 1957 had they been available. The BB (they were yellow, IIRC, back then) box car kit cost a bit over $8 in todays dollars. Interestingly enough, an Athearn BB 40 ft. steam era boxcar kit currently carries a $7.25 MSRP. I'll admit the RTR equivalent steam era boxcars go for about double, but then you're paying for someone else to assemble it. Let's suppose we go top shelf. Sound equipped Genesis. The first HO loco I ever bought with my own money was that POS F-7 in SP Black Widow and it cost me $6.95. We'll call it $7. The MSRP on the sound equipped Genesis SP F-7 A unit is $205 (well, actually it's $204.98, but why quibble?) http://www.athearn.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATHG10271. That's $29.50 in 1957 dollars, or about $10 less than a PFM brass Santa Fe 1950 class 2-8-0 was going for at the time.
dieselfreak500 wrote:I agree,the prices are getting out of hand. I well remember buying Athearn locos for 20 to 30 dollars each and not all that long ago. Now there going for what 50 or 60? If the quality goes up sure i'll pay more but a lot of stuff isn't. Mike H.
You wuz ROBBED at $20-30. My first Athearn engine was a Hi-F (rubber band) drive F-7. Cost me all of $6.95 plus tax. That was in 1957. A BB (actually the boxes were yellow way back then) box car kit was $1.29.
'Course that F-7 ran like , was equipped and with those worthless horn-hook couplers. IIRC, the geared GP-9 sold for about $10 (about $70 or so in today's dollars).
So Athearn locos (exclusive of Genesis) go for $50-60? Near as I can figure factoring in inflation, the new Athearn RTR locos would have cost about $7-8 in 1957 had they been available. The BB (they were yellow, IIRC, back then) box car kit cost a bit over $8 in todays dollars. Interestingly enough, an Athearn BB 40 ft. steam era boxcar kit currently carries a $7.25 MSRP. I'll admit the RTR equivalent steam era boxcars go for about double, but then you're paying for someone else to assemble it.
Let's suppose we go top shelf. Sound equipped Genesis. The first HO loco I ever bought with my own money was that POS F-7 in SP Black Widow and it cost me $6.95. We'll call it $7. The MSRP on the sound equipped Genesis SP F-7 A unit is $205 (well, actually it's $204.98, but why quibble?) http://www.athearn.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATHG10271. That's $29.50 in 1957 dollars, or about $10 less than a PFM brass Santa Fe 1950 class 2-8-0 was going for at the time.
The problem with many of the folks is that they are attempting to make things look like relative pricing hasn't increased much, if at all over the years. In doing so, some are quoting prices from 40-50 years back without researching what actually happened with hobby pricing in the intervening years.
The fact is that the early 1980's marked the historical low ebb in HO pricing, if those interested in the subject would only look into it more seriously. In the 1950's, prices were still coming down from their historical peak of just before the war. But twenty years ago you could buy any Athearn locomotive for $16.00 or even $12.00 if you didn't care about road name, while Athearn freight cars ran as little as $1.99 . By example, see AHC & Standard Hobby ads in the Dec. '85 MR and note, as well, that even cheaper prices prevailed just a couple of years earlier. In 1985 low-end steamers could be had for $25-$35 and, save for the always outrageous Rivarossi's, even the best widely available examples commanded less than $100 , with many brass steamers no more than double that figure (I know, I bought them!).
So, when attempting to make a case for today's pricing only being in step with inflation, these are the figures you should go by, not those of half a century ago. Now I don't know about the rest of you but salaries in my region sure haven't tripled or quadrupled for the average man in the past 20 years.
1. I usually camp in a 6' x 6' Dome tent. Have done several thousand backpacks over the years. Up til a couple years ago was out camping with Scouts, family, and Church groups an average of 65 nights a year. I still laugh at people who drive those monsters with AC, satelite computer and TV connections, get a beer from the fridge and sit under the patio canope watching the idiot box while talking on the cell phone and say they are camping.....
Above posted by howmus.
Thanxs for the kind words Howmus! I am 13 so i obviously do not own a moterhome but My parents do. We go "camping" (we laugh about calling it camping though) In our Moterhome. Yes we have 2 fridges. 2 TVs inside and we bring a portable one to wathc the news by the camp fire with. We have A/C and Direct TV. We also go out to eat but we still bring our grill. My dad uses his cellphone if it has service. Bottom line its not per say original camping but we always enjoy are time together as a family (My Mom Dad and Me and sometimes my Cousin comes to) Oh ya my pull out couch is a hell of a lot more comfterable then your rocks on the ground. lol I guess diffrent strokes for diffrent strokes. Tim
When I was younger I remember sitting at the dinner table with my ex wifes grandfather talking about money. He went and got a box of papers ( he saved everything). He showed me the receipt from when he bought his wifes wedding ring ( and it had a big fat rock on it too). It cost 60.00 and it took him 4 months to save up for it. He also Showed me some paycheck stubs where he got paid .25 an hour and that was concidered good money at the time.
Yes prices have gone up but so have wages. My kid cant believe it when I tell her that when I started work out of high school all I got was 2.65 an hour.
RMax1 wrote:I buy cheap freight cars and work them over, rarely buy new high end locos, look for great sales, modify broken things, build from scratch. The people that want to sell expensive locos and cars can keep them. If they are happy selling me one loco every year and a half instead of 5 to 10 so be it. I can find or make what I need in most cases.RMax1
You get what you pay for. CHEAP IS CHEAP and doesn't last. The more you pay the better the quality is and it will last longer.
4x8 are fun too!!! RussellRail
This an example HOW to AFFORD this HOBBY:
I bought an IHC GG1 at the train show for $35.00. Just bought a DZ123 decoder for $15.95. A little paint, decals and I have a DCC GG1.
Did I have to do it that way NO! I could just as easy ordered a TRIX GG1 and just ran it. BUT I wanted to do it to show that ANYONE can afford this hobby, period. I did not NEED sound, the TRIX name or all the details that are on it. So for $50.95 I have a GG1 that will work just fine. Later on I MAY put sound in it but that will only be another $80.00.
Remember PLEASE that is is a HOBBY and not a FULL TIME JOB. If your train is not a PERFECT REPLICA and does not SOUND LIKE the REAL THING you will still be able to:
EAT, LIVE IN DOORS, GET UP FOR WORK (unless you are like me and retired) and ENJOY LIFE JUST THE SAME.
The SIMPLE ANSWER to this LONG THREAD is: ANYONE CAN AFFORD THIS HOBBY.