Who can continue to pay for this hobby?

[Anonymous]

James, I have to agree with you and Half the fun of a hobby is getting there.

 To be fair to CNJ i don't think he's trying to say  that someone who can only afford plywood and some scatch built  scenery isn't a model railroader, The impression I am getting from him is that to be involved with a hobby involves effort and being content to just throw some track down and run a couple of trains and say "I'm done, see what a great modeler I am" is that person Truly a modeler . If that's the point then I agree but CNJ could have been nicer about it.

[BRAKIE]

CNJ831,I haven't read such malarkey since the great HO vs N scale debate of years ago where some oaf suggested if you didn't model in HO then you wasn't a real model railroader but just another tinplater...I had high hopes we advanced farther then those narrow minded days but,I see its still alive and well.

[james saunders]

Sooo....
You can't call yourself a modelrailroader until you have a finished fully scenicked and detailed layout?
I'm still In the building stage of my Model Railroad half is scenicked the other half isn't so am I only half a model railroader? I plan on scenicking and detailing the whole layout so can I call myself a Model Railroader? Or can't I because i'm a teenager?
I'm sure when you started out way back when, you didn't have perfect scenery or trackwork etc...

CNJ, I admire your modelling, I just don't agree with your opinions, which everyone is entitled to.

[CNJ831]

CNJ 831

Isn't a model railroad a miniature phyical represention of a real railroad?  You never mentioned the phrase, "model railroad," even once in you diatribe.  You did mention, "model railroading," twice.  It seems, at least to me, that, "model railroading," is a miniature representation of the operations of a real railroad.  That  doesn't require scenery, although without it the operations would certainly be boring.  Yet there are more than a few who don't seem at all interested in, "completing," their layouts and are content just to operate.  I would tend to agree with you that they do not have a model railroad, but none-the-less, I would have to say that they are engaged in model railroading, and more power to them. My HO layout has scenery and is operational, but it's only 2' x 8' with a fiddler yards at each end.  I hope in your book I don't have to have a layout that fills a basement in order to escape your pigeon-holing me as a, "hobby fringe expert."   

While I said that I was through responding to this thread, I think it worthwhile to clear up this often mistaken impression. The hobby is "model railroading", about the creation of a representation of a railroad and its surrounding enviroment in miniature. The hobby is not, nor ever has been, called "modeling railroad operations". This is a distinctly different concept which only a small faction (generally polled at around 15%-20%) within the hobby seriously does on their layouts. Be advised that while recommended by a some authors, it has never been spelled out anywhere to my knowledge as a final goal of the hobbyist, only as an adjunct to running your trains once you've completed your layout. Read the MR (and other magazine) editorials over the past 70 years regarding what they indicate is the supposed intent or goal in "model railroading". It surely isn't operations on bare plywood. Operations is simply a facet of the hobby, like locomotive fabrication or structure building, not an ultimate goal. And, yes, I do operations myself, fairly often, but it was never what I, nor most older more experienced  hobbyists, ultimately were striving toward. A finished layout and running trains for my enjoyment was my aim and historically that's been true for most modelers down through the years.

For those few whose sole interest inthe hobby is indeed running model trains on time schedules and with car cards on bare plywood with track tacked to it, that's fine with me if that's what floats your boat. But appreciated that, if true, it is opposite to the goals of every other craftsman scale modeling hobby, where it is always the objective to recreate physical reality in miniature in as rich detail as one can. I'd say operating on bare plywood has more in common with a computer game than classical model railroading.

Regarding those who brought up and revel in David Barrow's revolutionary so-called "minimalist" modeling style, you should be aware that this "style" is nothing but a throw-back to the way the average modeler was forced to work in the years between the late 1930's and the very early post-war period...simply for lack of adequate kits and scenicking materials. It was then considered the "Lionel on a board at Christmas" style. The question was also posed if I considered Barrows a model railroader because of his track on plywood "layout". And I'll say, in a word, no, partly for an additional reason. In exchanges with past MR staffers I have been told that he does not even build his own layouts but rather has them built for him...including the last one. His involvement is nothing more than in the design work. If that is all one is capable of in this hobby, then they are not a model railroader in my book. Incidentally, I was also told that his "minimalist" design was so unsatisfactory and unsatisfying that the "layout" lasted only a relatively short time before being dismantled.

Finally, before someone goes off on a further unintended tangent regarding my statements, let me say that in my book there is absolutely nothing wrong with having an as yet incomplete/partially finished layout, as long as you are continuing to regularly progress toward finishing it. My quams are with the seemingly increasing acceptance of the concept of reaching the track-on-bare-plywood stage and halthing your work indefinitely. That's where I split off the train set folks from the model railroaders.

With that food for thought, I'll retire back into the shadows..

CNJ831

 

[selector]

7-Anyone complaining that I skipped number 6 will be ignored.  I felt like it and that's all there is to it.

That made me smile, thanks....

For my meagre input on this secondary topic with-in the topic see my signature quote........

 

As for who can afford the hobby anymore topic, there are two types of  threads which should be interlocked... The first being that of complaints about the (percieved) rising costs  of the hobby (to which I dont agree) linked to the second type being "how many cars do you have?" or "how many unfinished/started kits?"  Many people in the hobby have far more equipment then they will ever use, or even take out of that dust covered box, that was a 'must have' item when bought. Most of us probably have months worth of 'work' we could do with existing kits in our possession, without spending a dime, maybe its like giving a kid your credit card and sending them to Toys-R-Us, they will undoubtedy buy things they dont really need or want that much just because they can.

Some of the modellers who complain the hobby is too expensive in one thread go on to another thread and state how many hundreds of cars they have, how many BB car kits not even built, or structures and other kits in boxes in closets for years unbuilt.  To a degree I admit to doing this, I have quite a few unbuilt kits that I have had for over 12months, yes I will get to them, but I could have used my money more wisely and not bought them untill I was ready to assemble them.

Have fun & be safe
Karl.

Hear, hear!

[CrazyDelmar]

1-I refuse to model a specific prototype, time, place or fret over minutia.

2-I am using whatever I've randomly collected over the years and working the layout around what I have.

3-The main change between the past layouts(Plywood Atlantic branch lines) is this one will be cookie cutter and cardboard mesh and wired with a change to DCC in mind.  Room for increasing the operational aspects is there and a continuous run option is a major feature.

4-My carpentry and scenicing skills are untested.  In other words, even tho I've loved my trains for 40 years, I'm not an expert modeler.  If you want to be critical of me, do so in a polite fashion. 

5-Nobody on earth should be complaining about the price of anything unless a large part of that price is taxes.  If you need an explanation, I would suggest you take a basic economics class or attend my political discussions on another site. 

7-Anyone complaining that I skipped number 6 will be ignored.  I felt like it and that's all there is to it.

8-Now go play trains and don't get arrested.  I'm not bailing anyone out this weekend.goes double for Phil and Nora

 

I agree, espicially with No.8!

[ukguy]

7-Anyone complaining that I skipped number 6 will be ignored.  I felt like it and that's all there is to it.

That made me smile, thanks....

For my meagre input on this secondary topic with-in the topic see my signature quote........

 

As for who can afford the hobby anymore topic, there are two types of  threads which should be interlocked... The first being that of complaints about the (percieved) rising costs  of the hobby (to which I dont agree) linked to the second type being "how many cars do you have?" or "how many unfinished/started kits?"  Many people in the hobby have far more equipment then they will ever use, or even take out of that dust covered box, that was a 'must have' item when bought. Most of us probably have months worth of 'work' we could do with existing kits in our possession, without spending a dime, maybe its like giving a kid your credit card and sending them to Toys-R-Us, they will undoubtedy buy things they dont really need or want that much just because they can.

Some of the modellers who complain the hobby is too expensive in one thread go on to another thread and state how many hundreds of cars they have, how many BB car kits not even built, or structures and other kits in boxes in closets for years unbuilt.  To a degree I admit to doing this, I have quite a few unbuilt kits that I have had for over 12months, yes I will get to them, but I could have used my money more wisely and not bought them untill I was ready to assemble them.

Have fun & be safe
Karl.

[MickEnright]

I have taken $800 brass locomotives and cut them apart and re-soldered major components to get them to look "just right". I've painstakingly painted and weathered models to recreate specific portotypes.

But I refuse to believe that I am any more or less of a modeler than someone who opens boxes and puts models directly on their code 100 track (I do that, too!) on a plywood shelf, or enjoys this hobby in whatever way they do. The fact that there are so many ways and so many levels of participation in this hobby is what makes it great. As long as we all are getting a kick out of what we are doing, we are successful, IMHO.

Best regards,

 

Mick

[rayw46]

CNJ 831

Isn't a model railroad a miniature phyical represention of a real railroad?  You never mentioned the phrase, "model railroad," even once in you diatribe.  You did mention, "model railroading," twice.  It seems, at least to me, that, "model railroading," is a miniature representation of the operations of a real railroad.  That  doesn't require scenery, although without it the operations would certainly be boring.  Yet there are more than a few who don't seem at all interested in, "completing," their layouts and are content just to operate.  I would tend to agree with you that they do not have a model railroad, but none-the-less, I would have to say that they are engaged in model railroading, and more power to them. My HO layout has scenery and is operational, but it's only 2' x 8' with a fiddler yards at each end.  I hope in your book I don't have to have a layout that fills a basement in order to escape your pigeon-holing me as a, "hobby fringe expert."   

[HEdward]

1-I refuse to model a specific prototype, time, place or fret over minutia.

2-I am using whatever I've randomly collected over the years and working the layout around what I have.

3-The main change between the past layouts(Plywood Atlantic branch lines) is this one will be cookie cutter and cardboard mesh and wired with a change to DCC in mind.  Room for increasing the operational aspects is there and a continuous run option is a major feature.

4-My carpentry and scenicing skills are untested.  In other words, even tho I've loved my trains for 40 years, I'm not an expert modeler.  If you want to be critical of me, do so in a polite fashion. 

5-Nobody on earth should be complaining about the price of anything unless a large part of that price is taxes.  If you need an explanation, I would suggest you take a basic economics class or attend my political discussions on another site. 

7-Anyone complaining that I skipped number 6 will be ignored.  I felt like it and that's all there is to it.

8-Now go play trains and don't get arrested.  I'm not bailing anyone out this weekend.goes double for Phil and Nora

[Anonymous]

Juveniles lay track on bare plywood and call it a layout...one would hope for something far better from supposedly talented adults.  

I would hardly call David Barrow a juvenile. While his current minimalist approach to modeling a layout doesn't especially float my boat, I am perfectly happy to take the "big tent" view and call what he is doing model railroading too. In fact I sat on a tour bus with David in 2004 and spoke at length with him about his minimalist modeling. He related to me how many of the old line modelers have labeled him almost a heretic for taking such a contrary approach. I think it's darn clever, even though it's not how I like to do a layout.

Long story short, the hobby changes and adapts to the times. In today's microwave generation, quick is in. Rather than labeling the new approach as "heresy", I'm happy to call those who are taking this different approach my fellow modelers as well.

I guess I'm just not into "us" and "them" hairsplitting. The more the merrier, if you ask me.

Not really off topic, so bear with me.

Anyone who knows the rules can play chess.  Even people who don't know the rules can play chess.  Chess can be played on a finely-crafted board decorated with expertly-executed carvings and mother-of-pearl inlays, using pieces cast from solid gold and silver, or on a lined-off piece of paper using bottlecaps, pull-tabs and other odds and ends.  It's all chess, and all of the people who play are called chess players.

Likewise, model railroading can be carried out on a finely crafted, supurbly detailed layout, using only museum-quality rolling stock, with every (DCC equipped, of course) locomotive fitted with a sound system that produces not only all the bells and whistles but all the compressor chuffs, generator whine and stoker rattle of that specific prototype.  Model railroading can also be carried out on track laid on a sheet of plywood supported on saw horses (or the dining room table) using sectional track and train-set rolling stock in whatever gauge.  It's all model railroading, and all of the people who follow the hobby with any degree of seriousness are model railroaders.

Chuck (who has been operating one module since 1980, and has yet to ballast the tracks on it)

Aww now I was going to stay away until you brought up Chess. That is one of the games I have a passion for. I sent my chessboard to Iraq for the Soldiers in 2003 along with some other things to take thier mind off the fighting. I havent touched chess since.

My board is really a 10 dollar wooden set made for Kaybee stores or something similar. We have had great games on it with some good people over the years.

I say it's about friends who enjoy trains of all kinds instead of the mega detailed/completed layout. I myself have ambition to advance well beyond the workbench stage now that the home is almost free and clear but that will take time.

Let me get out of this thread with drinks for everyone and best wishes and good cheer.

BTW I used to play chess by telephone to a friend who was a very good player on the east coast. The games were very good as long as we both carefully confirmed the moves with pauses to check the game boards 1200 miles apart.

[tomikawaTT]

Juveniles lay track on bare plywood and call it a layout...one would hope for something far better from supposedly talented adults.  

I would hardly call David Barrow a juvenile. While his current minimalist approach to modeling a layout doesn't especially float my boat, I am perfectly happy to take the "big tent" view and call what he is doing model railroading too. In fact I sat on a tour bus with David in 2004 and spoke at length with him about his minimalist modeling. He related to me how many of the old line modelers have labeled him almost a heretic for taking such a contrary approach. I think it's darn clever, even though it's not how I like to do a layout.

Long story short, the hobby changes and adapts to the times. In today's microwave generation, quick is in. Rather than labeling the new approach as "heresy", I'm happy to call those who are taking this different approach my fellow modelers as well.

I guess I'm just not into "us" and "them" hairsplitting. The more the merrier, if you ask me.

Not really off topic, so bear with me.

Anyone who knows the rules can play chess.  Even people who don't know the rules can play chess.  Chess can be played on a finely-crafted board decorated with expertly-executed carvings and mother-of-pearl inlays, using pieces cast from solid gold and silver, or on a lined-off piece of paper using bottlecaps, pull-tabs and other odds and ends.  It's all chess, and all of the people who play are called chess players.

Likewise, model railroading can be carried out on a finely crafted, supurbly detailed layout, using only museum-quality rolling stock, with every (DCC equipped, of course) locomotive fitted with a sound system that produces not only all the bells and whistles but all the compressor chuffs, generator whine and stoker rattle of that specific prototype.  Model railroading can also be carried out on track laid on a sheet of plywood supported on saw horses (or the dining room table) using sectional track and train-set rolling stock in whatever gauge.  It's all model railroading, and all of the people who follow the hobby with any degree of seriousness are model railroaders.

Chuck (who has been operating one module since 1980, and has yet to ballast the tracks on it)

[IRONROOSTER]

Juveniles lay track on bare plywood and call it a layout...one would hope for something far better from supposedly talented adults.  

I would hardly call David Barrow a juvenile. While his current minimalist approach to modeling a layout doesn't especially float my boat, I am perfectly happy to take the "big tent" view and call what he is doing model railroading too. In fact I sat on a tour bus with David in 2004 and spoke at length with him about his minimalist modeling. He related to me how many of the old line modelers have labeled him almost a heretic for taking such a contrary approach. I think it's darn clever, even though it's not how I like to do a layout.

Long story short, the hobby changes and adapts to the times. In today's microwave generation, quick is in. Rather than labeling the new approach as "heresy", I'm happy to call those who are taking this different approach my fellow modelers as well.

I guess I'm just not into "us" and "them" hairsplitting. The more the merrier, if you ask me.

Qualifications to be a model railroader:
If U think U R 1, then U R

I know the NASG to which I belong makes a point of being for everyone in S - collectors, hi rail, American Flyer, scale, narrow gauge.  This has always seemed to me to be the best approach.

Enjoy
Paul

[Tommy0218]

Hi to all,

I have to agree that this thread has gotten far off the beaten path and is now becoming extremely boring to say the least, however I think the term "model railroading" is taken by some members within this forum (who claim they are experts) that you must have museum appearance layouts with high level weathered buildings, plants, vehicles, figures, ballast on tracks and the artistic level of an accomplished MMR to qualify for a model railroader! I just have to disagree as I think that is a very poor excuse on their part because 1 locomotive on 1 section of track is model railroading since the loco and tracks are miniature models of the real thing! I think the best way is not to discourage individuals, but rather encourage them regardless of their talent. I once knew someone who bought only micro-metakit (ho) model steam locomotives starting at $1,700 a piece and his idea was to lay bare track on a desktop in his office. He was proud to be a part of  "model railroading" community.

Thanks and God Bless !!

[HEdward]

CNJ831,Wake up and smell the coffee..ALL we are doing is PLAYING with TOY TRAINS period..If you think you're not then you are sadly mistaken.

A layout can be without scenery..Look at the layout by David Barrow.Notice he is using cardboard mock ups for industrial buildings on plywood..According to YOU he isn't a "REAL" model railroader because he doesn't have scenery??

That my friend is a very wide judgmental brush you are painting with.

 

See my post on the modeler's license thread.  Thank you.

Ed

 

   Ed,Nice reply in the mention thread....

 

Thanks, sometmes I get it right.  Today is tease Phil day.  Poor guy has been naughty.  Naughty Phil, naughty!

[jfugate]

Juveniles lay track on bare plywood and call it a layout...one would hope for something far better from supposedly talented adults.  

I would hardly call David Barrow a juvenile. While his current minimalist approach to modeling a layout doesn't especially float my boat, I am perfectly happy to take the "big tent" view and call what he is doing model railroading too. In fact I sat on a tour bus with David in 2004 and spoke at length with him about his minimalist modeling. He related to me how many of the old line modelers have labeled him almost a heretic for taking such a contrary approach. I think it's darn clever, even though it's not how I like to do a layout.

Long story short, the hobby changes and adapts to the times. In today's microwave generation, quick is in. Rather than labeling the new approach as "heresy", I'm happy to call those who are taking this different approach my fellow modelers as well.

I guess I'm just not into "us" and "them" hairsplitting. The more the merrier, if you ask me.

[BRAKIE]

CNJ831,I understand your views.However..Let's us NOT forget that every modeler may not have the skills needed and may never learn the skills due to various reasons.

Now,if the model is below par,I try to look at the modelers skills,age and limitions before commenting..IF the fore mention is unknown like on a forum then I do not make a comment good or bad unless it looks good..

Now..Know and understand I can find fault with anybodies models including yours.I will find some items overlooked or are dead wrong as far as safety,operation etc.Am I a "expert" or "elitists?? No!!! I just been around railroads and the hobby long enough to see these "glitches" that many over look or are ignorant of..Do I include these "glitches" in my modeling..NO! I do know they are there but,I ignore them simply because this is a hobby-a past time where one is free to model the way that pleases them and NOT others.And that my friend is the MOST IMPORTANT PART..After all if you can't please yourself with your chosen modeling style then who can you please?

[Pruitt]

Sadly, it seems almost impossible to have a real debate on this forum without folks starting to throw rocks. Snide comments and provocative labels don't help the discussion at all, but they do seem to be the inevitable end to any discussion where people have closely-held and diverse viewpoints.

Oh, well, another good topic bites the dust...

[CNJ831]

I'll add just one final response to my critics from the viewpoint of "elitist", as has been pronounced upon me, and then walk away from this thread and let the newbie and hobby-fringe "experts" prevail in their opinions.

After decades in the hobby, in recent years I've become increasingly aware of the low grade efforts of its newer members. Model railroading today seems to be the only "modeling" hobby  where crude, slipshod, woefully insufficient and incomplete work is hailed by its participants as something of a standard and that such a stage of development need not be improved upon or taken any further toward completion.

Be advised the same average level of effort/craftsmanship demonstrated in model ship building, aircraft, militaria, etc. would either be simply dismissed by other hobbyists or be laughed right out the door! What in the world is the matter with so many model railroaders that they will not commit themselves to doing the best job they can and bringing their "layout" closer to completion than just track on plywood? Juveniles lay track on bare plywood and call it a layout...one would hope for something far better from supposedly talented adults.  

Now don't get me wrong here, I am all for encouraging folks new to the hobby in developing their talents and in their understanding of things related to model railroading. But this does not include applauding those who do a half-a** job not even worthy of a 10 year old, stop at the bare plywood stage, and then claim they are a "model railroader" with a layout to prove it. Laying track on a board and then halting your efforts does not earn you the title of "model railroader" in my book, or in that of any serious hobbyist I know.

Now you can have at my statements as you please and I appologize to the originator of this thread for the tangent it has taken because of some of my earlier posts.   

CNJ831   

 

 

[Anonymous]

Bob Boudreau;

Since the gist of this topic is how to make ends meet in this hobby this is not entirely off topic but I will end my participation in this direction with this post;

We get a lot of "Snowbirds" down here in Arizona and a significant number of them are from the "great white north"; do you know the last thing they do before they head back for Canada in the Spring?  They go to a doctor!  Do you know the first thing they do when they show back up here in the Fall?  Boy, that didn't take any prompting at all, did it?

Americans may go North of the border to get drugs and pharmacuticals; they don't storm the border seeking medical care.  According to the Department of Commerce guess what constitutes the largest single expenditure made by Canadians on this side of the border?  Boy, now that sure didn't take any prompting at all, did it?

[BRAKIE]

CNJ831,Wake up and smell the coffee..ALL we are doing is PLAYING with TOY TRAINS period..If you think you're not then you are sadly mistaken.

A layout can be without scenery..Look at the layout by David Barrow.Notice he is using cardboard mock ups for industrial buildings on plywood..According to YOU he isn't a "REAL" model railroader because he doesn't have scenery??

That my friend is a very wide judgmental brush you are painting with.

 

See my post on the modeler's license thread.  Thank you.

Ed

 

   Ed,Nice reply in the mention thread....

[HEdward]

I've always lived in the east coast states.  For me it's always been the Plywood Atlantic.

Or the Plywood Gulf. Erk!

No wait.. Plywood Delta?... you get the idea.

Plywood Central for you sir?

[Anonymous]

I've always lived in the east coast states.  For me it's always been the Plywood Atlantic.

Or the Plywood Gulf. Erk!

No wait.. Plywood Delta?... you get the idea.

[HEdward]

CNJ831,Wake up and smell the coffee..ALL we are doing is PLAYING with TOY TRAINS period..If you think you're not then you are sadly mistaken.

A layout can be without scenery..Look at the layout by David Barrow.Notice he is using cardboard mock ups for industrial buildings on plywood..According to YOU he isn't a "REAL" model railroader because he doesn't have scenery??

That my friend is a very wide judgmental brush you are painting with.

 

See my post on the modeler's license thread.  Thank you.

Ed

[BRAKIE]

CNJ831,Wake up and smell the coffee..ALL we are doing is PLAYING with TOY TRAINS period..If you think you're not then you are sadly mistaken.

A layout can be without scenery..Look at the layout by David Barrow.Notice he is using cardboard mock ups for industrial buildings on plywood..According to YOU he isn't a "REAL" model railroader because he doesn't have scenery??

That my friend is a very wide judgmental brush you are painting with.

 

[HEdward]

I've always lived in the east coast states.  For me it's always been the Plywood Atlantic.

[selector]

We can reduce this to a lone functioning locomotive on a piece of EZ-Track clipped to a 9v battery.  I would not call it a layout, nor would I say it is a model in any way.  The loco, itself, is an elaborate toy, and not suitable, for the most part, for children under the age of, say, 8 years of age.

Add another piece of track, and you still have essentially the same thing.  But, as you add complexity and the variety of model structures, scenery, and other rolling items, you begin to enter the wide range of appearance and function that the majority of us would agree is a layout.

A plywood pacific is a beginning.  It is a childhood, of sorts, that may extend for some time until the subject is prepared, and capable of, growth as he/she defines it.  To the extent that one other person is at some point willing to call it a layout, it is!  It may be with the addition of a single "fir tree", all six inches of it.

The majority of us agree that, effectively and philosophically, a layout is never really finished.  So, if you accept that sentiment, none of us has a layout.  We are all building an idea, and some of us are further along than others.  I only have about 40 trees to place on my layout, which is currently unable to accept the trees due to its stage of construction.  Notice, however, that I called it a layout, and you were willing to accept that label without question.

Please, God, let there be more plywood pacifics in this hobby.  We could sure use the critical mass, the zeal, the interest, the few dollars that come here and there, and the changes and experience that will help the hobby to stay vital.

 

All that for

[HEdward]

I'll see your two cents and raise you, oh wait, if I lose I won't have enough money to play trains with!

[pandabear]

Bravo! If anything will drive the hobby down it is attitudes like CNJ's that unless you spend massive amounts of money and count every rivet, it's not a "model" railroad. Goodness, it's a wonder a mob with torches and pitchforks didn't descend on Tony Koester's home when he dared to build a G-guage layout! The best way to grow the hobby is to embrace every aspect of it, scale, tinplate, 3-rail, Thomas/Brio/Wood, scratchbuilder, RTR, just as long as it's trains! Spend as little or as much as you want to or can afford.

[skiloff]

Well said, Fred. I understand CNJ's point, but I don't think he understands mine. My startup costs to get trains running and have fun with the kids is going to be about $500. Over the next year, I'll add in more sidings and a yard and more rolling stock, probably another $400. Then I'll add the final areas of the yard, more rolling stock and some buildings. Basically, I'll be spending on average $30-35 per month, or three packs of smokes in my area or one dinner out. Will I spend thousands of dollars to "finish" it? Of course I will, but it will take me years to do it. My point is (and a number of others) is the initial startup can be as little as $500 (and I think somewhat cheaper in some cases), just like many other hobbies. And, just like many other hobbies, you'll spend more as you go. I may never be a "real" modeler in your eyes, but I really don't care. I just want to have a fun hobby that I can do with my kids (and hopefully get my wife involved).