WOW!!!! cnj831 you better than me, and I good : ) Almost fell for it being real till I blew it up, car well done also, do you do this for a living, by the way how dose one cheak someones profile.
CNJ831 wrote: Chuck - In a sense, I agree completely with you from an old-timer's standpoint. Indeed, a lot of money can be saved by doing-it-yourself-from-scratch. But the unfortunate fact is that probably 90% of the newer people in the hobby don't have or never acquired the modeling talents/construction skills necessary to do so. You have an awful lot of (relatively) younger fella's today that never were taught how to build anything from their dad's or other sources when growing up and that's a big part of the reason expensive RTR has become such a large part of the marketplace in recent years. I learned how to build stuff from my dad, who was a model railroader starting way back in the 1930's and was also a passable carpenter, electrician, etc., as were most dads back then. How many fella's can say that today? Below is a shot of one of my scratchbuilt model structures. How many folks under 50 here do you think can do the same? Darn few, I expect and not because I'm so good or anything like that but simply because they've never had exposure to or learned the skills necessary. Plus, there no longer is any place to learn them from (the magazines certainly don't teach it anymore)...save through trial and error, which is an awful approach. So, you have perhaps 90% of newer modelers locked into buying, not building, and that fact simply can't be changed to any significant degree. Incidentally, when talking savings, I built the structure below for about $35. The commercial FSM kit that builds into essentially the same factory runs $500+ on eBay...built-up examples even more. CNJ831
Chuck - In a sense, I agree completely with you from an old-timer's standpoint. Indeed, a lot of money can be saved by doing-it-yourself-from-scratch. But the unfortunate fact is that probably 90% of the newer people in the hobby don't have or never acquired the modeling talents/construction skills necessary to do so. You have an awful lot of (relatively) younger fella's today that never were taught how to build anything from their dad's or other sources when growing up and that's a big part of the reason expensive RTR has become such a large part of the marketplace in recent years. I learned how to build stuff from my dad, who was a model railroader starting way back in the 1930's and was also a passable carpenter, electrician, etc., as were most dads back then. How many fella's can say that today? Below is a shot of one of my scratchbuilt model structures. How many folks under 50 here do you think can do the same? Darn few, I expect and not because I'm so good or anything like that but simply because they've never had exposure to or learned the skills necessary. Plus, there no longer is any place to learn them from (the magazines certainly don't teach it anymore)...save through trial and error, which is an awful approach.
So, you have perhaps 90% of newer modelers locked into buying, not building, and that fact simply can't be changed to any significant degree. Incidentally, when talking savings, I built the structure below for about $35. The commercial FSM kit that builds into essentially the same factory runs $500+ on eBay...built-up examples even more.
CNJ831
CNJ - I believe you have a pretty accurate evaluation of the current general state of the hobby. Very few kids (especially boys) today - at least in my neck of the woods, known as the land of f**its (censored by PC speech code), nuts and flakes - are taught to build anything or to work with their hands. Even simple things such as changing the oil in your own car at home gets you reported to the environmental police as an oil spill waiting to happen. And the neighborhood beautification committee is ready and willing to drop a law suit on you for building a tree fort or climbing structure of scrap lumber with and for your kids - you've got to buy a mega-thousand $$ commercial model, have it commercially installed and fenced in, and post proof of insurance and multiple warning signs. So how does a kid learn about working with his/her hands?
A quick story - my Dad grew up in London, son of a dentist (a professional). Basically same story for him - there was no instruction on the use of tools, doing things with hands, etc. But when he came to the US with little money, the best he could do for his family was to build stuff himself. He learned the hard way about cheap tools in finishing out an attic for additional bedrooms and building a kit boat, and learned lots fixing second hand Lionel trains and bicycles on Christmas Eve (he couldn't afford to buy us new ones). Later, he almost completed his NMRA Master Modeler before his health gave out, teaching himself to modify cheap plastic structures into beautiful models. Lessons - if the will is there most of the skills to kit-bash and scratch-build are fairly easily learned. The first time is always the hardest. And invest in good tools for the task.
Another way to keep the cost of the hobby reasonable is to keep the scope small. It's a hobby for me, and I get enough team-building and forced interaction at work to more than satisfy this introvert. Not knocking the clubs and club-like layouts - it's just not for me. But in praise of smaller layouts, I come up with:
- tighter focus. Because there isn't room for everything, having a model of everything doesn't make much sense. Two or three selected scenes tends to naturally focus era, region, and prototype inspiration to some extent.
- short trains. Short trains require less rolling stock, and if you can only run 2 at a time, what are you doing with more than 5 locos and 2-3 dozen cars? Collecting? If collecting is the real hobby, than these suggestions on how to save are not valid! Converting to Kadees or replacing plastic wheel sets is not so formidable (and self-defeating) when you only have a dozen cars to do.
- time to see accomplishments. You can "complete" a small layout in less than a decade or before your next move - whichever comes first. Taking on a small shelf layout, even though I know I'm moving next summer, doesn't sound unreasonable or a waste.
- time to build (or learn to build) things. Because you don't have a large layout, and only a few cars, you can take the time to build a locomotive kit, tune it, detail it, paint it, weather it without pushing layout completion back years. The same with scratching structures, building cars, and hand laying track. Several folks have bandied about 4 hrs/week as a typical amount of time for the hobby, a figure that seems reasonable to me. Given that amount of time, I can hand lay the track (without jigs or tie strips, but rail painted, ballast applied, and feeders hanging under the layout) for a fairly complex 4x8 with 10 turnouts in less than 3 months (and I am no speedster).
And of course, costs are far less. With a small layout, there is less of everything, and you can buy cheaper stuff because you have the time to upgrade it as you see fit.
my thoughts, your choices
tomikawaTT wrote: MAbruce wrote: There seem to be two basic camps when this subject comes up: Camp One: The hobby is too expensive and it's getting worse. Camp Two: This hobby has always been expensive so get over it. I’ve come to the conclusion that both camps are right. Call me a contrarian, but I belong to a third camp - the one labeled, There is always a less expensive way to get what you want! I don't mean E-bay! I mean go back to the roots of this hobby and build from prototype plans, photos and raw materials. Once upon a time MRR published a couple of construction projects for locos with wooden boilers and homemade detail parts to go over the least expensive mechanisms available. I have taken to building passenger and freight stock needed to fill out my roster from card stock and sheet styrene. Maybe these methods don't produce the museum-quality detail of a $50 box car or a $499 locomotive, but at normal viewing distance who can tell?
MAbruce wrote: There seem to be two basic camps when this subject comes up: Camp One: The hobby is too expensive and it's getting worse. Camp Two: This hobby has always been expensive so get over it. I’ve come to the conclusion that both camps are right.
There seem to be two basic camps when this subject comes up:
Camp One: The hobby is too expensive and it's getting worse.
Camp Two: This hobby has always been expensive so get over it.
I’ve come to the conclusion that both camps are right.
Call me a contrarian, but I belong to a third camp - the one labeled, There is always a less expensive way to get what you want!
I don't mean E-bay! I mean go back to the roots of this hobby and build from prototype plans, photos and raw materials. Once upon a time MRR published a couple of construction projects for locos with wooden boilers and homemade detail parts to go over the least expensive mechanisms available. I have taken to building passenger and freight stock needed to fill out my roster from card stock and sheet styrene. Maybe these methods don't produce the museum-quality detail of a $50 box car or a $499 locomotive, but at normal viewing distance who can tell?
Chuck - In a sense, I agree completely with you from an old-timer's standpoint. Indeed, a lot of money can be saved by doing-it-yourself-from-scratch. But the unfortunate fact is that probably 90% of the newer people in the hobby don't have or never acquired the modeling talents/construction skills necessary to do so. You have an awful lot of (relatively) younger fella's today that never were taught how to build anything from their dad's or other sources when growing up and that's a big part of the reason expensive RTRs of all types have become such a large part of the marketplace in recent years. I learned how to build stuff from my dad, who was a model railroader starting way back in the 1930's and was also a passable carpenter, electrician, etc., as were most dads back then. Can most younger fella's say that today? Below is a shot of one of my scratchbuilt model structures. How many folks under 50 here do you think can do the same? Darn few, I expect and not because I'm so good or anything like that but simply because they've never had exposure to or learned the skills necessary. Plus, there no longer is any place to learn them from (the magazines certainly don't teach it anymore)...save through trial and error, which is an awful approach.
So, you have perhaps 90% of newer modelers locked into buying, not building, and that fact simply can't be changed to any significant degree. Incidentally, when talking savings, I built the structure below for about $35. The commercial FSM kit that builds into essentially the same factory runs $400+ on eBay...built-up examples even more.
I don't mean E-bay! I mean go back to the roots of this hobby and build from prototype plans, photos and raw materials. Once upon a time MRR published a couple of construction projects for locos with wooden boilers and homemade detail parts to go over the least expensive mechanisms available. I have taken to building passenger and freight stock needed to fill out my roster from card stock and sheet styrene. Maybe these methods don't produce the museum-quality detail of a $50 box car or a $499 locomotive, but at normal viewing distance who can tell? (There's also the fact that you may end up wth the only model of Podunk and Northern #10 in the known universe.)
Do I hand lay track? Yes, when it's less expensive than buying commercial products, but not when I can get satisfactory results with flex track (bought as damaged goods, for less than half price. The rail that was on damaged tie strip now becomes raw material for specialwork.)
Do I obsess over the fact that my models won't look perfect in photos, or when examined with a magnifying glass. No! If you do, you have to pay for the greater fidelity you demand. If you don't, why DO you pay for more detail than you need to satisfy your requirements?
One last thing. While all the people who use DCC swear it is wonderful, they also have to concede that DCC can easily double the cost of a really cheap locomotive. Unless your trackwork is really complex and you want to run a dozen trains at once, DC wiring is less expensive than DCC command stations and boosters.
Model railroading can be as expensive as we let it be, or as inexpensive as our ingenuity will allow.
Chuck
I find it comical that people ignore Athearn Blue box and look at the most expensive HO engines and cars and use the prices as a benchmark of what this hobby costs. Good God. You can spend $150,000 on a Porsche. Does this mean it costs $150,000 to buy an automobile???
What is really happening is the price of the hobby increases as our tastes become more discriminating.
Seeing all ive seen so far on this, ive made a few of my own judgements and opions on this:
1. MRR is not really all that expensive, I buy used Loco's at show and refurbish them. They work better that new for less.
2. One hobby I see is left out: Antique Tractor Restoration, another one of my hobbies, cost more, depending what needs done and you goals
3. Houses may be expensive, but out here you can get a 2500 sq. Ft. house (5 bedrooms, 2.5 baths) for only $130,000! This includes 4 acres (about 4 fooball fields) and several outbuildings
4. There are a lot of whiners on here!
5. R/C car racing can be expensive (raced for 2 years)
6. One hobby that DOES cost more: Dirt Track Racing
Even though I only read to page 3 of this, this here sums up all I feel about it.
Couple other things to point out: first, John Allen didn't spend all that much on his layout perhaps because there was not the wealth of ready-made products available back then. When you are forced to scratchbuild or somehow otherwise create a lot of your layout, expenses can be relatively low.
Plus I wanted to mention something else about the manufacturers and the "price gouging." Anyone in the hobby sees Atlas, Athearn, Bachmann, Walthers, etc as BIG companies. But remember in the general business climate, those companies are actually tiny. They are only big in our little hobby, not in the real world. I think some of you would be quite surprised to hear how small some of the production runs are for our trains and when you factor in all the expenses of R&D, die making etc (as has been mentioned) it all adds up fast for a limited market.
It took me getting into the evil LHS business to figure that out myself, and I realize as part of the price-gouging conspiracy what I say here will have little effect...but remember these three words: priorities, compromise and perspective. And as my parents and the Rolling Stones told me a 1000 times growing up, You Can't Always Get What You Want.
DavidH wrote: While I don't know the exact number, I know it was mentioned many times over the years that John Allen spent very little on commercial products. Pretty much everything, other than some of his locos, was scratchbuilt. He even made his own figures, shaping and carving wax over wire armatures! I know that I am financially better off than most people, but, honestly, when I read some of these threads I am left with the impression that the average modeler is eating out of dumpsters and living under bridges! David
While I don't know the exact number, I know it was mentioned many times over the years that John Allen spent very little on commercial products. Pretty much everything, other than some of his locos, was scratchbuilt. He even made his own figures, shaping and carving wax over wire armatures!
I know that I am financially better off than most people, but, honestly, when I read some of these threads I am left with the impression that the average modeler is eating out of dumpsters and living under bridges!
David
Living under a bridge would be a luxury for me. I spent the past week on my in-laws sofa.
OK I have a deal for you. I will pay for your model railroad and all it costs you is the major 30,000 mile tune up on my car.
What a deal, trains, track, scenery, building materials. And All it costs you is the major 30,000 mile tune up on my car.
Oh yea the car is a 1988 Ferrari Testarossa and the tuneup is ONLY $30,000.00
See it is all in what you CHOSE to spend your money on. Remeber that this is a HOBBY, not you LIFES WORK. A John Allen switching puzzle will keep you going for years. My neighbors son wants to buy my Porsche in the worst way. Saves every sent he can, does not waste money on other hobbies, he wants that car. Sad thing is after he gets the car he will not be ablle to afford the insurance, maintenance (he does not do any auto work) or the speeding tickets. Kid + 185mph top speed = 300+hp= TICKET.
You have a choice to either pay for what you CAN AFFORD and enjoy it OR complain that you can not afford anything and be upset. Me when times where bad and $5.00 was a lot of money I FOUND ways to make the $2.50 item look like a $5.00 item.
CurtMc wrote: Making stuff in China still costs peanuts. Prices going up are not because of costs there just more profit for the US company which blames those costs and people believe them Sort of like the oil companies say the price of crude is why their profits are so high it is all just a big game but it works because people believe them.
Making stuff in China still costs peanuts. Prices going up are not because of costs there just more profit for the US company which blames those costs and people believe them
Sort of like the oil companies say the price of crude is why their profits are so high it is all just a big game but it works because people believe them.
Like others have said before, there are many factors that go into how much a model RR product costs, not just how cheap it may be to assemble the product itself. Like it or not, companies are in business to make a profit, but I don't think anyone in the MR business is on the Fortune 500 list (I could be wrong, though). As others have suggested, if it is true that MR companies are price-gouging their customers, then someone could make a killing by going into the MR business and underselling everyone else.
Does it really cost "peanuts" to manufacture anything in China - especially today since they have experienced rapid growth in industry and standard of living over the past 10-15 years? What are the real costs involved with getting that Bachmann Spectrum loco from the factory in China into your hands?
I suggest that some real financial market research is in order before making any sweeping generalizations about conspiracy theories of MR executives living high on the hog at the expense of John Q. Modeler (ditto for criticizing oil company profits, for that matter).
Stepping off the
JBSteamer wrote:... Demand drives up the prices! When I first started flying (60s) things were a lot cheaper. You could buy a Sterman biplane for $5000. Today that same airplane would bring around 100 grand!!
JB, you are right, demand does have something to do with prices, but I suspect it's not as big a factor in brand-new MR products as one might think. It would be more of a factor in older products that are no longer in production (see eBay). That's why the Stearman was so inexpensive in the 60's as compared with the astronomical price today. How many more airworthy Stearmans were available in the 60's as compared to today. Also, the point was made earlier that Americans have more disposable income nowadays, so they can afford to shell out a relatively larger amount of money for things like vintage Stearmans. So in this case, the price increase does not reflect simple inflation, but is more of a function of supply & demand.
Dan Stokes
My other car is a tunnel motor
andrechapelon wrote:So what? How much did John Allen's Gorre & Daphetid cost in inflation adjusted dollars? Allen was working on the last version of the G&D for nearly 20 years prior to his death, so the cost was spread out. The only way a layout will cost you thousands up front would be if you had one built by a professional layout builder.
So do you know how much John Allen actually spent on his layout? And how much of that cost was he able to spread out? Just checking - since you just used it as an example... I certainly don't.
Many hours of labor? Sheesh, and I thought model railroading was supposed to be fun. I will grant you that some tasks are more enjoyable than others, but to refer to the whole enterprise as hours of labor makes it sound like a chore..
I never suggested that MRR is not fun. I was only comparing the labor requirements of this hobby to others like RC Airplanes. But now that you brought it up, I think one of the other issues this hobby faces (besides cost) is that it fails to satisfy a culture that is seeking instant gratification. I personally like putting in the time to build something, but many others don't. They want plug-and-play.
CurtMc wrote: Making stuff in China still costs peanuts. Prices going up are not because of costs there just more profit for the US company which blames those costs and people believe them Sort of like the oil companies say the price of crude is why their profits are so high it is all just a big game but it works because people believe them. HEdward wrote: CurtMc wrote: The profits from china goods are massive. It costs nothing to get stuff made there, the high prices go into the pockets of US train companies. The hobby prices are closing stores weekly. huh? No economics lesons from me again until someone explains that one to me.
HEdward wrote: CurtMc wrote: The profits from china goods are massive. It costs nothing to get stuff made there, the high prices go into the pockets of US train companies. The hobby prices are closing stores weekly. huh? No economics lesons from me again until someone explains that one to me.
CurtMc wrote: The profits from china goods are massive. It costs nothing to get stuff made there, the high prices go into the pockets of US train companies. The hobby prices are closing stores weekly.
The profits from china goods are massive. It costs nothing to get stuff made there, the high prices go into the pockets of US train companies.
The hobby prices are closing stores weekly.
huh?
No economics lesons from me again until someone explains that one to me.
Display layout in economic logic!
Oil company profits are not actually at all time highs when you look at the profit margin. And since when is profit a swear word anyway? If Walther's retail prices are so high, then why are the LHSs having trouble? Our hobby has traditionally had very resilient properties. I've purchased one F-b unit and one Mogul in the past five years. Other than the Danbury RR Museum rolling stock, I've bought three USED freight cars and TWO used passenger cars in that time. The only reason I even bought so much track for the last layout was that the brass track was stored in a damp basement and took way too much effort to clean up. The best thing for you to do if you like your LHS is to show off your layout and spark interest in the hobby in others. Don't blame low labor cost in China for high prices here. If there wasn't a market for $1,000 Big Boys in HO, then they wouldn't make them, anywhere. The train store in Lebanon PA is only open part time. How can he pay the rent? I don't know. Maybe he owns the building outright. I never asked. The point is that the business world is always changing. Look at the MR advertisers. Tons of stuff at near cost. The LHS needs return business, but if even a cheap Bachman loco can run for 35 years, how is he going to get that business? There is no simple answer, but remember, if a company isn't in business to MAKE a profit, then there wouldn't be a business.
This hobby is one of the most affordable EXCEPT for those that have to have it ALL NOW.
What ever happened to doing things a little at a time?
The layout I am working on now covers 2200 sq ft. I did not just purchase all of it yesterday. I have been in this hobby all of my life. So the cost has been spread out over 45 years or so.
I just can’t understand why everyone today has to have it all right now!
Good things come to those that wait, only because you are spending a little at a time instead of a LOT all at once!
BOB H – Clarion, PA