simon1966 wrote:First of all, this is really not a kids hobby.
First of all, this is really not a kids hobby.
I currently have a 12' x 20' modular plywood pacific. It allows me to run trains while I construct my planned layout which will fill a 30' x 60' basement.
As I construct my layout I will invite friends over for construction and operating sessions. I will use the operating sessions to determine if I have enough industries, passing siding, staging tracks.... It may be a while before I have any scenery, but I have an operating layout.
JIM
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.
CNJ
I often agree with your posts, but not this time. By the measures you cite, I guess I'm not a real MR, although I've been enjoying the hobby off and on since 1968, and have been an MR suscriber since 1962. I've handlaid my track on a 4x8 and a 4x6, I've also built 5 Lionel layouts in that timeframe, and constructed basic scenery on the 4x6. My goal is to "complete" my next layout the day before I die or become too feeble to do any more. Not counting some trainsets that were garage sale gifts from my wives, 4 of my 6 HO and 2 of my 3 HOn3 locomotives were/are being assembled from kits. All my rolling stock with one exception was/is being assembled from kits, and all my structures were/are. My expenditures for model railroading was $25/month in the '70s, $25/month from 1988 to 2005 (most of which went to 3 rail O) and $50/month in the past year. My final layout, when and if I ever get the space and time, will consist of a 5x8 and 3-4 8ft shelves. The first step will be a 2x8 ft HOn3 shelf layout.
A "Plywood Central" is a fine starting point, and as posted, out can reach an attractive and fun stage in the owner's eyes for less than $1,000. Of course Model Railroader and the other hobby media want to see great numbers of large, completed layouts. Those are the layouts and the owners (who do spend over $1000 per year) that support the hobby businesses. The large layouts also feed the RTR movement because the owners don't have time to build everything from kits, just as I will never have time build a large layout because I do so much model building. I don't provide enough $$ to the hobby to support the fine selection and quality that is available today. And I'm really grateful to those of you who do because I benefit from the increased selection.
My real point is that a newcomer doesn't have to spend thousands per year to have fun at the hobby. If you are willing to accept learning new skills and building for yourself as part of the journey, than you can opt out of the RTR movement with its attendant price tag. But no matter which group you fall into, you are still a model railroader - and model railroading should be fun!
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
alco_fan wrote: CNJ831 wrote:Please don't take offense but if you haven't any scenery started yet, you don't have a "layout" and that is why your cost so far is relatively low. A 4x8 Plywood Pacific can most definitely be put together for under $1,000 but that's far from being a real layout in most any serious hobbyist's book. You are going to find that reasonably completing your 3x9 will likely run you a further several thousand dollars, at least if you want it to look likely anything worth a second glance. Wow.. an answer that's both elitist _and_ factually incorrect. Nice two-fer. Even if adding scenery _was_ necessary to make a layout, it could be done for a fraction of the several thousand dollars blithely thrown out here. Paint, plaster, cardboard strips, maybe some styrene or Strathmore for streets. That's a couple hundred bucks (US _or_ Canadian) at most. Lay in some scratchbuilding supplies and you're set for years of fun for not a lot more cash. Jon
CNJ831 wrote:Please don't take offense but if you haven't any scenery started yet, you don't have a "layout" and that is why your cost so far is relatively low. A 4x8 Plywood Pacific can most definitely be put together for under $1,000 but that's far from being a real layout in most any serious hobbyist's book. You are going to find that reasonably completing your 3x9 will likely run you a further several thousand dollars, at least if you want it to look likely anything worth a second glance.
Wow.. an answer that's both elitist _and_ factually incorrect. Nice two-fer.
Even if adding scenery _was_ necessary to make a layout, it could be done for a fraction of the several thousand dollars blithely thrown out here. Paint, plaster, cardboard strips, maybe some styrene or Strathmore for streets. That's a couple hundred bucks (US _or_ Canadian) at most. Lay in some scratchbuilding supplies and you're set for years of fun for not a lot more cash.
Jon
Jon - Sorry but, even though the newbies and wantabee hobbyists would like it to be otherwise, a bare sheet of plywood or a set of raw boards around the wall with track on them (that typically never progresses beyond that stage) is nothing more than a train set to anyone who's done any serious modeling. Do you consider junvenile fingerpainting to be an example of fine arts? The difference in the level of execution is about the same as between a bare plywood train set and a completed quality layout. Believe me, the sooner you wake up to that fact, the better off you'll be in this hobby. Since the 1950's, MR has published time and again that THE objective of this hobby is to build a finished and operating (in the sense that it runs, not operations) layout...nothing more, nothing less...read the MR editorials of years gone by.
In addition, try fully scenicking your layout, if of any real size, for a couple of hundred bucks and the results will be just as laughable as that $500, throw-back to the 1950's, "layout" that was in MR a couple of years ago. I've built a number of finished layouts over the years and no matter how conservative I was, the final bill was always in the multiple thousands. Are you another guy whose never seen the $50-$100 per square foot rule that's appeared repeatedly in all the hobby publications for decades? Amazing that so many with experience could be so wrong for so long, huh?
Incidentally, the word elitist, when used on this forum, more often than not refers to someone who actually knows about hands-on modeling and model railroading, as compare to the no-can-do dabblers.
CNJ831
I've got $43.82 in my pocket. Cash. Now can we stop nit-picking and whining, PUHLEEEZE! Believe it or not, the more people you bring into the hobby, the lower the prices will get, in the long run.
I'm in the market for about 130 feet of flextrack and a few turnouts. Cork, scenicing materials, etc. I guess if I spend all my money at once, I can always mortage my future to pay for it. Or I can be patient, upgrade my ancient rolling stock and tinker with the track plan. Or just hang out in the swimming pool, play some pool, play with the babies, or even, spend time with the wife!
canazar wrote: IRONROOSTER wrote: Railphotog wrote: ... Do you know the easiest way to commit suicide in the US? Get really sick and don't have an expensive health care plan! Too true. To add insult to injury the bill is 2 1/2 to 5 times higher for those without insurance.Paul Actually, I have found quite oppisite is true. I am self employed and havent had health insurance for almost 9 years. Being slef employed and getting health insurance can be a quite a drag. There have been a few times when something has come up and I needed professional help. Here is a great example, I needed blood work done at a lab.. Sir, that will be 160.00, do you have yoru insurance card?" "Well, how about cash? Any discount?" "Oh yes, that will 95.00 then." I have found smaller practices and even the urgent care centers like cash (Plastic works too) much better than insuarnce. As one doctor explained to me they wait forever for money to roll in from the insuance companies. Plus, the more often than not, can lose some of the money due to charges. (Sometimes taking 3-6 months to get the money) When someone offers good old cash, they are more than happy to take it and usually offer great discounts. That being said, I do plan on getting insuarnce but for only major stuff. High premuim and such. In case somthien catostrophic happens, such as cut off finger at work or a organ fails. Just cheaper to pay anythign under 4000-5000.00 out of pocket. Typical insurance for me would have been around 100 a month, times 8.5 years is 10,200. So far, I am way ahead of the game. Also, as far the original subject, as soon as you think this hooby is getting $$$, take alook at golf clubs. Makes my 180 dollar sound equipped engine look pretty cheap. Plus, it wont be out of date next year either.
IRONROOSTER wrote: Railphotog wrote: ... Do you know the easiest way to commit suicide in the US? Get really sick and don't have an expensive health care plan! Too true. To add insult to injury the bill is 2 1/2 to 5 times higher for those without insurance.Paul
Railphotog wrote: ... Do you know the easiest way to commit suicide in the US? Get really sick and don't have an expensive health care plan!
...
Do you know the easiest way to commit suicide in the US?
Get really sick and don't have an expensive health care plan!
Actually, I have found quite oppisite is true. I am self employed and havent had health insurance for almost 9 years. Being slef employed and getting health insurance can be a quite a drag. There have been a few times when something has come up and I needed professional help. Here is a great example, I needed blood work done at a lab..
Sir, that will be 160.00, do you have yoru insurance card?"
"Well, how about cash? Any discount?"
"Oh yes, that will 95.00 then."
I have found smaller practices and even the urgent care centers like cash (Plastic works too) much better than insuarnce. As one doctor explained to me they wait forever for money to roll in from the insuance companies. Plus, the more often than not, can lose some of the money due to charges. (Sometimes taking 3-6 months to get the money) When someone offers good old cash, they are more than happy to take it and usually offer great discounts.
That being said, I do plan on getting insuarnce but for only major stuff. High premuim and such. In case somthien catostrophic happens, such as cut off finger at work or a organ fails. Just cheaper to pay anythign under 4000-5000.00 out of pocket. Typical insurance for me would have been around 100 a month, times 8.5 years is 10,200. So far, I am way ahead of the game.
Also, as far the original subject, as soon as you think this hooby is getting $$$, take alook at golf clubs. Makes my 180 dollar sound equipped engine look pretty cheap. Plus, it wont be out of date next year either.
brothaslide wrote: CNJ831 wrote: skiloff wrote: I haven't started scenery yet, but I don't need scenery to run trains. Total cost - $773 if my math is correct. BUT, had I not wanted the Unitrack for the above mentioned reasons, it would easily be $250 less for Atlas flex track and turnouts. So, thats $525 to go Atlas, $775 to go with Unitrack and I have a working 3x9 layout. Is that expensive? Please don't take offense but if you haven't any scenery started yet, you don't have a "layout" . . . CNJ831 So when do you have a layout? I really enjoy the articles on Eric Broomans Utah Belt and his scenery is not finished yet; does that mean he does not have a layout? If, in your opinion, the Utah Belt is a layout, then what percentage of scenery needs to be completed before you can consider your layout - a layout?
CNJ831 wrote: skiloff wrote: I haven't started scenery yet, but I don't need scenery to run trains. Total cost - $773 if my math is correct. BUT, had I not wanted the Unitrack for the above mentioned reasons, it would easily be $250 less for Atlas flex track and turnouts. So, thats $525 to go Atlas, $775 to go with Unitrack and I have a working 3x9 layout. Is that expensive? Please don't take offense but if you haven't any scenery started yet, you don't have a "layout" . . . CNJ831
skiloff wrote: I haven't started scenery yet, but I don't need scenery to run trains. Total cost - $773 if my math is correct. BUT, had I not wanted the Unitrack for the above mentioned reasons, it would easily be $250 less for Atlas flex track and turnouts. So, thats $525 to go Atlas, $775 to go with Unitrack and I have a working 3x9 layout. Is that expensive?
Please don't take offense but if you haven't any scenery started yet, you don't have a "layout" . . .
There are also additional long term expenses. Mainly all the nice loco’s & rolling stock that catch your eye once you’re bored of what you have, detail items, layout add-ons, additional structures you found will look good on your layout, ripping out and redoing areas because you have a better idea, DCC upgrades, the latest signal system, ..
Well, as you can see it can be an endless and expensive process. But lots of fun!
Fellas, let's not get into a contest here trying to decide what is a layout "A Layout"
Sure you spend 800 dollars on the 3x9 but it seems focused and well done in planning. That is what I am talking about when I think about costs other than Locomotives and Rolling stock.
I think by the time you finish the structures you will probably be a few hundered more.
I was taught that scenery is like 5 dollars a shake on some bottles and it's best to improvise and make do where possible.
CNJ831 wrote: skiloff wrote: I haven't started scenery yet, but I don't need scenery to run trains. Total cost - $773 if my math is correct. BUT, had I not wanted the Unitrack for the above mentioned reasons, it would easily be $250 less for Atlas flex track and turnouts. So, thats $525 to go Atlas, $775 to go with Unitrack and I have a working 3x9 layout. Is that expensive? Please don't take offense but if you haven't any scenery started yet, you don't have a "layout" and that is why your cost so far is relatively low. A 4x8 Plywood Pacific can most definitely be put together for under $1,000 but that's far from being a real layout in most any serious hobbyist's book. You are going to find that reasonably completing your 3x9 will likely run you a further several thousand dollars, at least if you want it to look likely anything worth a second glance. CNJ831
Please don't take offense but if you haven't any scenery started yet, you don't have a "layout" and that is why your cost so far is relatively low. A 4x8 Plywood Pacific can most definitely be put together for under $1,000 but that's far from being a real layout in most any serious hobbyist's book. You are going to find that reasonably completing your 3x9 will likely run you a further several thousand dollars, at least if you want it to look likely anything worth a second glance.
There are guys with no scenery that have 10 times the layout I have because they can operate it like a real railroad. Jerry Britton's PRR Eastern Region is an example. It's triple-decked in N scale. No scenery, but he can handle a typical 1954 day on the then-busiest railroad in the world. That's a layout in my book, scenery or not.
http://jbritton.pennsyrr.com/
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
BTW, Athearn still makes the non-detailed locos of yesteryear at reasonable prices. Why don't you buy them? They have a bunch of locos under $50. And if they don't have your road name, I guess you better learn how to paint & decal like I did.
========================================================
Sorry Paul,but the BB engines are hard to come by locally and on line except for the odd SD40-2 and S12 here there and yonder.Yes even the old F7,GP7 and other fat bodies are hard to find these days at any price-I do not count e bay because its not a B/M hobby shop or on line hobby shop but a auction site /dumping ground..Also the SW7,SW1000 and SW1500 are hard to find these days..The good news is the better looking BB RTR engines such as the F7 A/B GP38-2,GP40-2, and SD40-2 can be had around $50-55.00 on line.The newer RTR units isn't that much higher in costs
Let's be fair and add the Atlas Trainman GP38-2 that can be had around $53.00.
Now,let's look deeper at the other discounts. I have seen Atlas GP7s around $65.00,The ALCO switchers for $59.99,RS11s for $65.00..Other units from $69.00-99.00.
Would you believe that Atlas locomotives are cheaper then P2K at discount?
The Robber Baron prices are still out there IF one is willing to buy at those prices..However,smart shoppers will buy at the best possible prices.
Whoa! We are actually agreeing.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Best Regards, Big John
Kiva Valley Railway- Freelanced road in central Arizona. Visit the link to see my MR forum thread on The Building of the Whitton Branch on the Kiva Valley Railway
RMax1,There is no way that P1K F3's were $20 to $40 each at MSRP, and please don't bring in sale prices because there's no proof. I can say that I bought P2K PA-1's and E8A's for $40 ea. at a train show (and I did)...but how would you know that I did?
Would it be fair for me to say, "One time, I bought a P1K RDC-2 for $20. Now they want $75 for a new one. That's a $55 increase! That's not fair!" Puh-leaze (the MSRP of the RDC-2's was $65). That RDC-2 was being blown out at a train show by my club's white elephant table, where I got a member discount, too. The new RDC-1's were being sold full MSRP at a hobby shop. Is that a fair comparison?
How soon people forget what it was like 15 years ago, when there was little selection and what was there was some real junky stuff. If you were a NH fan in 1991, good luck finding anything. Only Atlas C-425's, RS-11's, RS-1's & RS-3's, Stewart U25B's & RS-3's were any good. Of course, you could buy those lovely "shorty" rubber band RDC's, nonsense F7's, and ridiculous SDP40's from Athearn. Oh, the joy of being a NH fan then, where if you wanted a passenger engine, you had to buy brass or custom paint a loco or two.
I'm sorry, but I can't complain about a "limited run" system that has provided me with $75 DL109's in 2 NH paint schemes and 4 numbers, full length geared RDC's for under $80, PA-1's in 3 NH schemes in 6 numbers, NH RS-3's for $90, 2 different NH S-1's, NH S-2's, 2 different NH FA's in 4 schemes, 2 different NH RS-11's, NH RS-1's in 2 schemes, NH RS-2's in 2 schemes and 4 numbers, H16-44's in two styles with 2 schemes, NH EF-4's (E-33's), etc. Even CPA25-5's are coming soon in NH paint for $150.
Now, do I have all these locos? No, I don't. But I know, when I have the money, that they are out there to be had...which is a lot more than I could say in 1991.
Paul A. Cutler III*************Weather Or No Go New Haven*************
RMax1,Like I mention the BEST PRICE BUSTER we have is sitting before us..Our computers.
I am medically retired and live on a fixed retirement plan from the company and union I once toil for. Saying that let me assure you I buy at the BEST DISCOUNT PRICE I can find on the net and only buy the items I need or truly want.
Also detail parts is available for detailing locomotives..Its one of the most relaxing facets of the hobby that many modelers over look in todays "Gotta have Now And It Best Be 110% Correct Hobby".
Railphotog wrote:... Do you know the easiest way to commit suicide in the US? Get really sick and don't have an expensive health care plan!
rtpoteet1 wrote:skiloff;Question: Do you know the easiest way to commit suicide in Canada?Answer: Make a doctor's appointment and then wait for the doctor to be born.
Bob Boudreau
CANADA
Visit my model railroad photography website: http://sites.google.com/site/railphotog/
Safety Valve,Remember, if it wasn't for limited runs, do you think that dock scene would ever have been produced in plastic? Walthers has made the Steel Mill, the Paper Mill, the Waterfront, the Auto Plant, the Loco Facility, and the Dairy. If they did the long production runs of yesteryear, they'd still be cranking out Steel Mills (Walther's first "theme").
Is it disappointing when you can't find a model you are after that used to be common? Absolutely (seen any plastic pellet silos recently from Walthers?). But at least they made them and, if you're lucky, you may find them at a train show or LHS or eBay, or they may even re-release it. It may take you a while, but they can be had...which would be a lot more difficult if they hadn't made it in the first place.
CNJ831 wrote: whitman500 wrote: I'd be really surprised if the manufacturers are making a lot of money despite the high prices. A couple in Europe have recently gone bankrupt and the consolidation of the industry in the US reflects an industry under pressure. I think what we are seeing is the result of the industry's conscious decision to abandon the mass market and shift model railroading into the high-end, niche category. The biggest factor in the cost of a locomotive isn't oil but rather the size of production run. A design that sells 1,000 units is going to cost a lot more than one that sells 10,000 units. However, with declining interest from children in model railroading, I think manfacturers have given up on trying to produce a $30 engine that they can sell in Toys R US (which, unlike 15 years ago, no longer stocks model railroad products) to lots of people. Instead, they are opting for the speciality market where people will pay more for better details, etc. and can afford a high-end engine that has a limited production run. Amazing! There are actually at least a few folks here who understands and appreciate what's truly driving prices ever higher and where the market is going. Congratulations, Whitmann500! CNJ831
whitman500 wrote: I'd be really surprised if the manufacturers are making a lot of money despite the high prices. A couple in Europe have recently gone bankrupt and the consolidation of the industry in the US reflects an industry under pressure. I think what we are seeing is the result of the industry's conscious decision to abandon the mass market and shift model railroading into the high-end, niche category. The biggest factor in the cost of a locomotive isn't oil but rather the size of production run. A design that sells 1,000 units is going to cost a lot more than one that sells 10,000 units. However, with declining interest from children in model railroading, I think manfacturers have given up on trying to produce a $30 engine that they can sell in Toys R US (which, unlike 15 years ago, no longer stocks model railroad products) to lots of people. Instead, they are opting for the speciality market where people will pay more for better details, etc. and can afford a high-end engine that has a limited production run.
I'd be really surprised if the manufacturers are making a lot of money despite the high prices. A couple in Europe have recently gone bankrupt and the consolidation of the industry in the US reflects an industry under pressure. I think what we are seeing is the result of the industry's conscious decision to abandon the mass market and shift model railroading into the high-end, niche category. The biggest factor in the cost of a locomotive isn't oil but rather the size of production run. A design that sells 1,000 units is going to cost a lot more than one that sells 10,000 units. However, with declining interest from children in model railroading, I think manfacturers have given up on trying to produce a $30 engine that they can sell in Toys R US (which, unlike 15 years ago, no longer stocks model railroad products) to lots of people. Instead, they are opting for the speciality market where people will pay more for better details, etc. and can afford a high-end engine that has a limited production run.
Amazing! There are actually at least a few folks here who understands and appreciate what's truly driving prices ever higher and where the market is going. Congratulations, Whitmann500!
They do that by the threat of limited run.
Yes you can get a nicer engine today but you have to order it before the deadline if you want a copy. That is what is hurting the hobby. I point to the Walthers Barge and Float Dock Kit as an example. They were produced several years ago at what... 30-50 dollars retail?
I had a set that had no room for on my layout, a week of intense bidding on ebay produced a winning big for both kits for about 3-5 times the retail value. In the same time MR releases harbor articles about docks, ships and barges while everyone scrambled to find walthers tugs, floats and barges that were out of production.
While Im not picking too much on walthers as an example of an out of production item Im saying the people are getting squeezed into either ordering the item on the spot unseen or do without because it will be sold out with the entire run allocated to pre-orders and no or little chance of additional sales unless a second run was made.
To tell you the truth, I as a customer have NO idea about how many units were produced, how many orders were made, cost to make, cost to sell to retail and profit margins. All of that are trade secrets.
I think that the pressure from the Manufactors is getting too hot, I have a fixed hobby budget that is pretty good but takes time to acquire some of the higher ticket items. I usually do without and focus on things like structures, scenery and control systems that are always availible.
I say that the internet saved the hobby. To be able to get a list of hobbyshops that acquired a Out-of-production item from a Walthers Catalog webpage and email each hobby shop looking for in stock items and to recieve several responses with a cost including shipping usually produces a desired item.
Without the internet I suppose I will be running a loop of track with a few things that may or may not fit the era Im trying to model.
I began this thread after hearing two teenagers chatting in a hobby shop. The gist of their conversation was that the ever-rising costs were making modeling life difficult for them and one youngster told the store clerk he'd probably not continue the hobby. He simply couldn't afford it.That prompted me to write the opening comment to this thread. I wasn't whining as one respondent inferred. Merely stating an assertion, based on my observations.
I have a friend -- who like me -- is on a fixed income, and must save for several months before he can update his equipment. He tends to rearrange his layout, spending considerable time rebuilding terrain and tracks. Now he slowing down because certain items, not all, will take time to purchase.
When I was 13, I started out with a Lionel train layout that began as the traditional circle, eventually transformed into a figure eight, and eventually one track over another with spurs and turn outouts. This wasn't done over night but over many years. I cut grass, shoveled snow and deliverd magazines and newspapers to satisfy my need to be creative using model railroad trains as my tools. That was 62 years ago.
I moved to HO when that scale became vogue and have stayed with that scale. But I change my layout often, removing certain terrain and rebuilding new ones, using multi levels, etc. I also like traction thus have seven trolleys that travel within and around my railroad.
Sure, there are plenty of folks who can afford this hobby, and that has become evident in the comments in this thread. Yes, most hobbies are expensive -- a relative term.There's much to be said about this hobby other than gratification in building somerthing constructive that can produce entertainment, challenge, know-how and pleasure. My statements were not focused on those with money to spare, but about those planning to enter this hobby and hoping to achieve the level where pleasure and joy become reality. Most of us in this hobby have been there.
My focus, unfortunately not clearly stated, was also aimed at those on an already tight budget who may become frustrated by rising costs and may cut short their goal of producing something that satisfies their need to be creative and to remain a working member of the MRR community.
The response to me comments are overwhelming. I'm glad I was able to start an exchange of thoughts and ideas.
GGB
The concerning thing is that this trend is likely to continue, inexorably, if the hobby continues to decline in popularity. And when the Baby Boomers pass away, what happens then with no young hobbyists because the manufacturers abandoned the mass market? Buy as much as you can now because I fear that prices will only rise over the long run.