Perhaps to understand the distaste so many oldtimers feel toward what they view as the Johnny-come-lately, RTR crowd, the newer folks should step back and appreciate what the hobby has been all about up until recently.
For more than seventy years model railroading has been based almost totally on craftsmanship, developed skills, and creativity. Participants were proud of what they themselves could accomplish without excessive outside help or through purchasing. Except among those who bought brass, it was never a hobby about collecting and buying, in spite of what a few may claim. Traditionally, if you wanted to gain respect among fellow hobbyists, it was a matter of do-it-yourself. Very few, if any, ever bought their way in in the past.
The longtime modelers see the recent influx of folks who increasingly wish to only purchase RTR locos, cars, structures and even scenic elements, as an aberation and totally unrepresentative of what the hobby has always been about. These RTR newcomers are looked down upon as little more than model train collectors, seemingly unwilling to develop the skills viewed as necessay to go much beyond the track-on-plywood level of modeling on their own.
Is it any wonder, then, that RTRers are looked upon scornfully by oldtimers? This displeasure is further enhanced by the fact that the manufacturers are increasingly aiming their products at the RTR group because they are willing to expend far more cash on and purchase in greater volume, products over the course of a much smaller time interval than their more creative hobbyist cousins. To the manufacturers it is, naturally, a matter of getting the greatest return on investment in the shortest time, not a matter of who represents the dominant segment of the hobby.
I expect that folks here fail to appreciate, perhaps even realize, this situation exists simply because the vast majority here are indeed newbies, RTRers, and mostly those who have yet to develop much in the way of advanced modeling skills. This is simply what this forum caters to...the entry-level folks. You have to admit that, in spite of the several tens of thousands of rostered members, this forum displays very little evidence of more than a handful of participants modeling with highly advanced level skills and having superior layouts. But believe me, these sorts of folks are still the great majority of the model railroading community.
The question of whether all-encompassing RTR is the hobby's future and savior, or will simply become a distinctly separate spin-off from those whose hobby is modeling in the traditional manner, is still very much in question. So, in the meantime, try to understand and appreciapte both sides of the matter and don't unjustly become hot under the collar too quickly.
CNJ831
Good post CNJ831...I happen to agree with you for the most part, as a middle-aged timer who has done a little scratchbuilding in the past, a little detailing and a little painting and decaling...
What I've never understood is why the different folks at different levels cannot just peacefully co-exist in the same world.
And that is a two way street...for all the venom I hear spewed toward the RTR crowd, I hear just as much from the RTR bunch toward the "rivet counters and the nitpickers."
I know some of the swipes are just in good fun, but why not let folks enjoy this hobby to the extent that they wish to enjoy it and in whatever manner they choose?
And it's not just old-timers who look down at the RTR people, there are some younger people who are into scratchbuilding and detailing, and they lament the current situation also.
As for the business side of it, I would dearly love to sell more scratchbuilding supplies and detail parts...but they do not sell like they did in the past.
The common thread is folks are working more hours than ever, to get even more money...and they "don't have the time" to put a kit together so they buy RTR. It's like a dog chasing his tail, but that is the refrain.
Maybe I am more tolerant because I most definately see ALL the different levels of this hobby and I welcome them all in my store just the same...and I don't have a problem with an experienced modeler trying to help a newbie get better skills (as we see on this forum) but I still don't understand why there has to be the animosity involved at times.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
Things change. Some move with it, some demure, some fall back. I understand what CNJ831 says...his message is oft repeated. What we should not also "fail to realize" is that those who are buying RTR now are paving the future of the hobby, not its past. This trend shows no signs of reversal, and if anything is growing by leaps and bounds. The demand is there, and it is defining the hobby.
I admire those who have done great self-development and skills-building in earlier times because it obviously set the stage for the hobby. The previous generations have had their giants, and so will this one. In time, we'll also be supplanted by a new cachet, style, and technology, and we'll try to convince the newcomers how easy they have it.
Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose.
CNJ831,I am a long time modeler and have no qualms about buying RTR cars and engines after all Atlas been RTR for years so,its just not the new modeler..Look closer and you will find old timers are buying RTR if they want Atlas,Genesis,P1K,P2K or Athearn.
You see I been around long enough to know RTR isn't any thing new under the sun as many like to think.
Want proof?
RTR dates back to the 50s with factory painted brass engines.Then in the 60s we had tons of RTR cars and locomotives!
http://www.hoseeker.net/]
From the 50s to 2007 RTR has been around in one form or the other.
The only difference is today its widely accepted.
So,Why the hubbub over nothing but,market demand set by all modelers regardless of skill level or age?
Its hypocrisy at work if these "advanced" modelers are buying Atlas,Genesis,Overland,P2K or Athearn locomotives or cars since these are RTR while looking down their long noses at those that only buy RTR...
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
davidmbedard wrote: 4884bigboy wrote:I'm getting really sick of people putting down RTR equiptment. Just the other day I was looking at getting an Athearn RTR SD60 and the 3 guys I was talking with gave me a dirty look and said "Don't go wasting your time on that Athearn or Kato or Atlas***, buy a kit and build it yourself". This made me lose it. I replied "Well, I don't really have the time to build kits, not to mention locomotive kits are usually somewhat challenging, and the RTR is way better looking than I could ever make it look". They were infuriated by this and yelled "How are you ever going to know if you don't do it yourself!?" After that they made a quick leave. What's the big deal with RTR locomotives and rolling stock? They offer a quick way to get your trains running and look great. I would consider Kato locomotives RTR, too, even if you do have to apply the detail parts. Most people including myself just don't have the time, the skills or the patience to build kits. And mind you I'm just talking locomotives (kit rolling stock is fun, but RTR is nice once in a while). So lay off, pro-kit builders.Anyone else feel the same way as me?If it doesnt ring true, it probably isnt. This story seems to me to be "too out there" to be true.I think you need thicker skin. To get into an arugument over kits is just stupid.David B
4884bigboy wrote:I'm getting really sick of people putting down RTR equiptment. Just the other day I was looking at getting an Athearn RTR SD60 and the 3 guys I was talking with gave me a dirty look and said "Don't go wasting your time on that Athearn or Kato or Atlas***, buy a kit and build it yourself". This made me lose it. I replied "Well, I don't really have the time to build kits, not to mention locomotive kits are usually somewhat challenging, and the RTR is way better looking than I could ever make it look". They were infuriated by this and yelled "How are you ever going to know if you don't do it yourself!?" After that they made a quick leave. What's the big deal with RTR locomotives and rolling stock? They offer a quick way to get your trains running and look great. I would consider Kato locomotives RTR, too, even if you do have to apply the detail parts. Most people including myself just don't have the time, the skills or the patience to build kits. And mind you I'm just talking locomotives (kit rolling stock is fun, but RTR is nice once in a while). So lay off, pro-kit builders.Anyone else feel the same way as me?
If it doesnt ring true, it probably isnt. This story seems to me to be "too out there" to be true.
I think you need thicker skin. To get into an arugument over kits is just stupid.
David B
I'm a big kitbasher and have built about 1/2 my loco fleet, and advocate for people to give it a whirl, but I have no biased against anyone who would prefer to roll it out of the box onto the layout.
I do alot of bashing because in my scale (large scale) there is still a huge dearth of whats avalable so we still have to build alot, but heck I know kit building let alone kitbashing isnt easy and can intimidate the hell out of people, so if they prefer to pass, fine with me.
I have RTR stuff on my roster also, I find the snobby attitude described in the initial post to be a real detriment to the hobby, but the knuckleheads are in every hobby unfortunatly, and no matter what you do, someone will find fault in it, so you just learn to ignore these various snobs (weathering snobs, scale snobs, era snobs, detail snobs, etc) and focus on your own interests and skills.
PS my reply to these guys would have been " Who da hell are you to tell me what ta buy? Have you seen my roster?, have you seen my layout? so you know how much of my stuff is bashed and how much much is RTRs? Shut the pie-hole and mind yer own biz, buttmunch!"
PSPS I had a similar experience also in my very early HOn30 days, so it does exist out there
Have fun with your trains
jeffrey-wimberly wrote: davidmbedard wrote: 4884bigboy wrote:I'm getting really sick of people putting down RTR equiptment. Just the other day I was looking at getting an Athearn RTR SD60 and the 3 guys I was talking with gave me a dirty look and said "Don't go wasting your time on that Athearn or Kato or Atlas***, buy a kit and build it yourself". This made me lose it. I replied "Well, I don't really have the time to build kits, not to mention locomotive kits are usually somewhat challenging, and the RTR is way better looking than I could ever make it look". They were infuriated by this and yelled "How are you ever going to know if you don't do it yourself!?" After that they made a quick leave. What's the big deal with RTR locomotives and rolling stock? They offer a quick way to get your trains running and look great. I would consider Kato locomotives RTR, too, even if you do have to apply the detail parts. Most people including myself just don't have the time, the skills or the patience to build kits. And mind you I'm just talking locomotives (kit rolling stock is fun, but RTR is nice once in a while). So lay off, pro-kit builders.Anyone else feel the same way as me?If it doesnt ring true, it probably isnt. This story seems to me to be "too out there" to be true.I think you need thicker skin. To get into an arugument over kits is just stupid.David BDon't sell it off as far-fetched simply because you've never seen it happen. I have seen it and I've run into narrow minds just like those described. Be thankful they haven't crossed your path with their 'my way is the only way' attitude. I have a neighbor who's exactly the same way. I really pee'd in his Cheerios one day when I spied him bringing home a pre-assembled Amtrak loco. That shut him up, but good!
Absolutely! I seen it myself and there is no call for such uppity comments from folk like that!
BRAKIE wrote: CNJ831,I am a long time modeler and have no qualms about buying RTR cars and engines after all Atlas been RTR for years so,its just not the new modeler..Look closer and you will find old timers are buying RTR if they want Atlas,Genesis,P1K,P2K or Athearn.You see I been around long enough to know RTR isn't any thing new under the sun as many like to think.Want proof?RTR dates back to the 50s with factory painted brass engines.Then in the 60s we had tons of RTR cars and locomotives!http://www.hoseeker.net/]From the 50s to 2007 RTR has been around in one form or the other.The only difference is today its widely accepted.So,Why the hubbub over nothing but,market demand set by all modelers regardless of skill level or age?Its hypocrisy at work if these "advanced" modelers are buying Atlas,Genesis,Overland,P2K or Athearn locomotives or cars since these are RTR while looking down their long noses at those that only buy RTR...
Honestly, in my circle of modelers I don't find the fellas rushing out to buy the latest RTR locos or anything else RTR. Here and there we may pick up something that goes straight to the layout but in general we continue to purchase what we always did, building mainly kits of one description or another, airbrushing, decaling and weathering them, ourselves. Certainly, I can't speak for your circle.
I certainly don't need any proof about the early existance of RTR. In fact, it can be traced back further than you suggest, almost to the very beginnings of model railroading...back to the pre-war custom builders (Lobaugh, Stock, et al.). Even Mantua Metal Products offered a few of their pre-war engines RTR...at a price. However, this was a decidedly minority situation. And, yes, occasional painted brass was to be found on some small minority of layouts in the 1950's but, as we both know, rare was the situation when the owner hadn't completely disassembled and reworked them almost totally after purchase, like some unique craftsman kit. Most early brass didn't run very well and was often inaccurate. Those who bought John English, PennLine, Mantua, et al. RTR also generally modified and customized them. Endless books and articles instructing you how to convert them to this or that prototype were around. That's clearly different from today's RTR, that goes from the box to the track untouched.
Selector says things change and RTR is paving the way to the hobby's future. To which I'll repeat that one should not go by what they see/read here as being representative across the hobby because of this forum's make-up. I would, however, suggest that hobbyists keep an eye out for a possible schism in the hobby somewhere down the road, with traditional modelers going one way and those heavily into RTR another. If one looks carefully at the current major magazines they'll already detect such leanings. I do recall it happening in the 1950's, when increasingly sophisticated HO totally divorced itself from Hi-rail and O tin-plate, which once were considered as much a viable part of the hobby as HO. MR and then RMC totally bannished them from their pages for nearly 40 years. And most of you probably aren't aware that there were even two distinct levels HO model railroading back during the 1950's. So just keep in mind that history has a strange way of repeating itself...
CNJ831 wrote:... To which I'll repeat that one should not go by what they see/read here as being representative across the hobby because of this forum's make-up... CNJ831
... To which I'll repeat that one should not go by what they see/read here as being representative across the hobby because of this forum's make-up...
I was not able to appreciate the truth of this statement until I was recently invited to participate in a forum where I am very much out of my element, and where, as CNJ831 states, there are clear demarkations in ability and skill over the heavy majority of posters here. Except for my self-intro back about two months ago, I have remained absolutely still...and silent.
Lurking is good.
CNJ831,I fully agree there are difference in clubs and modelers in other areas.Tis the way it has always work.Sadly I agree we will see a split in the hobby even though there is no need for such as long as advanced modelers buys RTR locomotives and cars.You see the hypocrisy I was talking about in my statement? Advance /serious modelers looking down at the RTR modelers while buying RTR Atlas,P2K,Genesis and Kato.Another split I see is the so called "serious" modeler/operator breaking off from the good enough/close enough modelers and where will that leave the casuals?? I suspect in their own camp.
I also feel that RTR,Prebuilt structures,weathered cars and custom built layouts will become the norm.
CNJ831,I don't know what the hobby will be like in 5 or 10 years but,I expect it will be quite the ride getting there.
I don't mind about RTR vs Kits; to each his own! I do prefer to build kits but much of the modern cars exist only as RTR so I bought them anyway. But I would like to see every item issued as RTR be also available as a kit.
Martin
Québec City
BRAKIE wrote: jeffrey-wimberly wrote: davidmbedard wrote: 4884bigboy wrote:I'm getting really sick of people putting down RTR equiptment. Just the other day I was looking at getting an Athearn RTR SD60 and the 3 guys I was talking with gave me a dirty look and said "Don't go wasting your time on that Athearn or Kato or Atlas***, buy a kit and build it yourself". This made me lose it. I replied "Well, I don't really have the time to build kits, not to mention locomotive kits are usually somewhat challenging, and the RTR is way better looking than I could ever make it look". They were infuriated by this and yelled "How are you ever going to know if you don't do it yourself!?" After that they made a quick leave. What's the big deal with RTR locomotives and rolling stock? They offer a quick way to get your trains running and look great. I would consider Kato locomotives RTR, too, even if you do have to apply the detail parts. Most people including myself just don't have the time, the skills or the patience to build kits. And mind you I'm just talking locomotives (kit rolling stock is fun, but RTR is nice once in a while). So lay off, pro-kit builders.Anyone else feel the same way as me?If it doesnt ring true, it probably isnt. This story seems to me to be "too out there" to be true.I think you need thicker skin. To get into an arugument over kits is just stupid.David BDon't sell it off as far-fetched simply because you've never seen it happen. I have seen it and I've run into narrow minds just like those described. Be thankful they haven't crossed your path with their 'my way is the only way' attitude. I have a neighbor who's exactly the same way. I really pee'd in his Cheerios one day when I spied him bringing home a pre-assembled Amtrak loco. That shut him up, but good!Absolutely! I seen it myself and there is no call for such uppity comments from folk like that!
You could have just as well have run into these guys in Wal-Mart while you were looking for an oil filter for your car..You would probably get the same type response...
These three guys could be some of the best craftsmen in the state, but their behavoir is not doing THEIR hobby any favors with their lack of good-will.
I think it should be noted that this concept of kits for freight cars and locos a-la Athearn is somewhat of an American phenomenon. Growing up in the UK, all the MRR rolling stock that I purchased was R-to-R, I am not sure if it was even possible to get rolling stock in kit form? In my experience this has been the situation with the vast majority of European model RR manufacturers.
I happen to enjoy kits and scratchbuilding, especially for structures. I also like to build simple freight car kits with my two sons. As long as my needs are being met, I could care less what everyone else wants to do with their hobby dollars.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
The nice thing about RTR is that you can buy or build. While I have scratchbuilt and kit built in the past, I don't have the time right now to do that and still get a layout going. So I use as much RTR as I can. I buy kits that I like because they have a way of not being around later on, but I won't be building most of them until I retire in a couple of years.
Way back when, people looked down on kit builders, then they looked down on plastic kit builders, now it's RTR.
I think what RTR's popularity reflects (at least partly) is the desire to have a model railroad bigger than a sheet or two of plywood; but not enough time to build everything. 40 years ago RTR was available, but was looked down because the detail wasn't there except in brass which was too expensive for most. Now the detail is there, affordable for many, and you can focus on building the layout. Actually, the layout is like a huge scratchbuilding/parts building project It's just that the parts are engines, switches, flex track. But you still have to plan it, lay it out, and build it.
What's interesting is the way the toy train people were split off from the hobby year ago, but now the two camps are closer together. Most of the S market is the same except for wheels, couplers, and track. The two largest S producers sell their line to both the scale and the toy train markets - just the wheels and couplers are different (Showcase line actually sells everything but steam locomotives set up for hi rail, but with scale wheels included and mounting pads for kadees). In O the same thing is happening with Atlas and others. And some of the hirailers are scratchbuilding or kitbuilding structures for their layouts.
As for the snobbery, that will always be there in some form or another. There is this desire people have to say "I'm better than you". But I ignore it, life's too short and I have a railroad to build.
Enjoy
Paul
Being that I model modern day Southern Railway, there is a little amount of RTR stuff out there that I could buy. I myself like to detail things so the RTR stuff is fine as long as buy a detail kit if it's not detailed enough.
-Smoke
I guess I see things a little differently. 2 years ago, I decided I wanted to get into HOn3 as well as 1900-era HO. Then, the HOn3 motive power situation was somewhat bleak. Used brass was more than I was willing to pay at the time. The old kit standbys - the MDC 2-8-0s, and the MDC and Keystone Shays were going out of production. Low-end brass - the FED and Ken Kidder - were soaring over the $100 mark, even though they generally required a complete rebuild to work well. Nevertheless, I planned my free-lance prototype roster around these kits and low-end brass, and started buying them on eBay. Cars would be built from a variety of craftsman kits.
In the past year, MicroTrains, Blackstone, and MMI have come out with affordable (relatively) RTR locos and cars. They run very well and are all detailed well beyond what my limited, but improving, skills could hope to accomplish. So the question becomes, for instance, do I hold off on doing an FED 4-4-0 rebuild (total cost with remotor/regear and extra details about $250), or wait and hope that Blackstone or MMI comes out with a superior RTR 4-4-0 in the next 2-3 years for about $350?
What I am saying backs up what CNJ and some others are saying. In the past, I had no choice. Now, thanks to a better income and RTR, I can choose how to spend my modeling time. But at what cost to my nascent modeling skills? Will the hobby be as interesting to me if I am not forced to stretch myself, but can instead buy myself out of tasks that appear challenging to me? And finally, when I can no longer buy locomotive kits (very rapidly approaching), will I be up to the challenge of real scratchbuilding?
just my thoughts
Fred W
For some of us, our choice of scale/prototype combination leaves us with less RTR than we'd like, and so kitbashing or scratchbuilding becomes necessary. For example, PRR steam in N is not available RTR, so we must take matters into our own hands.
Trust me, I'd run RTR steam if it were available in PRR in N. I have a PCM PRR M1b 4-8-2 on pre-order.
One's choice of modeling style is dictated by many things. Each modeler answers only to his/herself as to what those things are. In other words, debate on this subject is silly, because none of us model under the same set of circumstances.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Ted Marshall wrote: What inspired on30francisco to dig up this thread after a year and a half of dormancy? Anybody else notice? I'm getting a lil' annoyed here. LOL
What inspired on30francisco to dig up this thread after a year and a half of dormancy?
Anybody else notice?
I'm getting a lil' annoyed here. LOL
For real...Let's move on and bury this thread already. Please?
Ted M.
got trains?™
See my photos at: http://tedmarshall.rrpicturearchives.net/
Some people need to separate the general population into smaller and smaller subgroups so they can attach themselves to the (in their perception) 'superior' group and look down on everyone else. The more insecure they are, the more apt they are to make the subgroups smaller and place greater emphasis on the differences that make them 'superior.' Hence, the idea that using RTR equipment, or employing professional layout builders, somehow lessens one's ability to be considered a 'real' model railroader.
OTOH, people who are secure and comfortable with themselves accept that different folks will do things differently, and that one size does NOT fit all.
As for me, I will continue to enjoy the work of all of my fellow model railroaders, and will give what help I can to all who ask for advice. I sincerely hope that they all are having as much fun as I am with my off-the-shelf, RTR, kit-built, kitbashed and scratchbuilt track and rolling stock.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Bear "It's all about having fun."
consider I can handlay track and build a skillz required wooden kit interurban full of loose wooden piecese, I bought PCM's 2-6-6-4 RTR.
I thought about bashing RR Y6B to make one but since PCM did it, YAY!!!
I'd been working on remotoring the RR Y6B but the remade it quality with sound. YAY!!! me want one.
If a kit is available, I dont mind building and save bucks. This hobby is about having fun...so have fun.
What is bothering me about today's market is not the RTR - I'm glad it's there. And there are still quite a few very capable scratch builders, although they tend to be a little quieter than the RTR folks, at least on this forum. But there are fewer and fewer kits, particularly locomotives, to bridge the gap in skills. Most skilled scratch builders didn't start out that way. They progressed through some kits on their way to becoming master craftsmen. I still wish for the variety of locomotive kits that were available in the past.
Luckily for me, the vast majority of kits never get built. So older, out of production, can still be found on eBay. But it would be exciting to see some new locomotive kits that could be built into something to rival today's plastic RTR in both detail and running ability with reasonable skills.
LD357 wrote: I WANT! I WANT! I WANT! GIMMEGIMMEGIMME!! Jeesh!! There are so many produscts out there now that Walthers needs A Sears & Roebuck size catalog to list them and now you want more?? With the amount of super detail and company specific detail kits why in the world do you want the manufacturers to make an even more extensive line of products? and you want the entire BNSF and UP rosters? GET REAL!!! If you want a particular piece of equipment and for some odd reason you can't find it at Walthers or one of the hundreds of other retailers...make it yourself!! It's sad that people today are so lazy and inept that they can't even make simple scratchbuilt pieces and want someone else to make obscure one-of-a-kind equipment just for them.
I WANT! I WANT! I WANT! GIMMEGIMMEGIMME!! Jeesh!! There are so many produscts out there now that Walthers needs A Sears & Roebuck size catalog to list them and now you want more??
With the amount of super detail and company specific detail kits why in the world do you want the manufacturers to make an even more extensive line of products? and you want the entire BNSF and UP rosters? GET REAL!!! If you want a particular piece of equipment and for some odd reason you can't find it at Walthers or one of the hundreds of other retailers...make it yourself!!
It's sad that people today are so lazy and inept that they can't even make simple scratchbuilt pieces and want someone else to make obscure one-of-a-kind equipment just for them.
Case in point.
I'm one of the "like to run'um" guys. So RTR is fine by me. Besides, by the time you put in and program a decoder, replace and adjust the cuplers, adjust/repair some details (that always seem to get damaged in shipping) and maybe add some weathering, RTR isn't all that "Ready" after all....
Tilden
I couldn't agree more.