Anybody else getting annoyed........

[TrainFreak409]

I'm all for Ready to Run locomotives. I feel that I don't have the skill to build them yet. Nor do I have the space. I don't have a workbench, and I'd rather not do it at the kitchen table with dogs and brothers running around. Nor do I want to do it at my computer desk. And I'm N scale, and there aren't many loco kits in my scale. Before I work on locomotive kits, I'm going to start with kitbashing and playing around with building stuff.

I wish Athearn had an N scale blue box series, because I loved opening a blue box and building the HO models.[:D]

[Anonymous]

i love RTR engines and freight cars but i'm willing to buy either RTR or kits to get what i want- i'm in this hobby beacause i want to run trains, not to build kits (although i'm willing to build them if neccesary)

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy

I'm getting really sick of people putting down RTR equiptment. Just the other day I was looking at getting an Athearn RTR SD60 and the 3 guys I was talking with gave me a dirty look and said "Don't go wasting your time on that Athearn or Kato or Atlas***, buy a kit and build it yourself". This made me lose it. I replied "Well, I don't really have the time to build kits, not to mention locomotive kits are usually somewhat challenging, and the RTR is way better looking than I could ever make it look". They were infuriated by this and yelled "How are you ever going to know if you don't do it yourself!?" After that they made a quick leave. What's the big deal with RTR locomotives and rolling stock? They offer a quick way to get your trains running and look great. I would consider Kato locomotives RTR, too, even if you do have to apply the detail parts. Most people including myself just don't have the time, the skills or the patience to build kits. And mind you I'm just talking locomotives (kit rolling stock is fun, but RTR is nice once in a while). So lay off, pro-kit builders.

Anyone else feel the same way as me?[V][?]

My thought as I read this was what business is it of theirs how you enjoy your hobby? Ignore them.

[RedGrey62]

Its your money and your time, do what you want. I've done both and I have to say that if I can get an RTR loco with the paint scheme and features I want, I'm going to get it. Better yet, my wife is going to get it, happily, cause she won't see it on the "kit shelf" and she won't hear me grumble when I 1) lose a part, 2) need a tool I don't have (like the right size bit for the pin vise), and 3) I figure out how to screw it up!

There are alot of "holier than thows" out there. I have another term for them, "haters", no matter what, they'll hate something. Have fun.

Rick

[UNIONPACIFIC4018]

I didnt realize everything was avaiable in kit form. Well unles you are doing PRR then Bowser has most of them. I mean 90% of locomotives are assembled, you should of asked them how many brass locos they had.
Those seem to show up assembled.

[Anonymous]

I get annoyed whenever someone tells someone else what they should do or believe. (except you really cannot divide by zero)

I get annoyed that there are not N scale kits so I can at least try one.

[railroadyoshi]

I am all for RTR locos. I just don't have the skill for Loco building. Heck, i don't have the skill for maintaining RTR locos. However, I don't buy RTR rolling stock or structures.

I don't push my belief on anyone else, and I expect they won't push on me. And that applies far beyond railroading.

[elauterbach]

Love running them, hate building them! That is why I buy mostly RTR.
Eric

[fievel]

I'm glad there are plenty of RTR locos and freight cars, as it gives me more
time to build structure kits. I built several n scale Roundhouse kits ( rolling
stock ). They were all right, but RTR seems to not wobble around as much.
I'm not sure if it's my fault, or MDC's, but I do prefer RTR. Maybe it'll cost me
a little more, but it usually runs well.

[Anonymous]

All of my Locos and much of my rolling stock is RTR. I get great satisfaction out of assembling structure kits, scratch building trees and scenery and painting and weathering.

But assembling a loco is a little much for me. If I mess up a part on a building, I can usually "weather it" away or, move the building to a not so obvious location. If I messed something up on a loco, I wouldn't be able to forgive myself!

[howmus]

I have built locos from kits, and I have RTR. At this point in my life, I prefer to buy locos ready to set on the track and run. Of course I will still have to add a decoder, do some minor changes, add some details, and weather and decal the locomotive for my road. The only person you have to pease is you! I let stuff like that go in one ear and right out the other. I often nod my head approvingly, say thank you, and then go home call my son and say, "You should have seen the jerk I was talking with at the LHS..... What an @$$hole!".

Have fun with you're trains!

[tangerine-jack]

I don't see what right anybody has to tell somebody else how to enjoy something. I have mostly RTR, and a few kits, but I don't understand what all the fuss is about. I simply tell the close minded idiots where exactly on their anatomy a kit or RTR will fit with the proper forcing. Do these knuckle draggers (on BOTH sides of the non existent argument) have no lives? Do they really get a kick out of controlling what other people want to do?

I buy what I want, when I want, and from whom I want. I tell the naysayer to get stuffed and just enjoy my hobby.

[tigerstripe]

Just tell them that you are following prototypical practice, I think they get all of their loco's from GE & EMD, RTR. Sometimes they even get them "undec" primer grey or without stripes and numbers. I have seen a few that came from "kits" from EMD and assembled by Conrail. But the vast majority are ready to run.

[bwftex]

Not me...............

I recently bought an RTR Trainman boxcar that I was really pleased with. It’s the first RTR car I've bought since I was a kid. It’s a very good-looking, very well made and painted model. Even the cast on detail is excellent.

I've got nothing against RTR. I'm only a little disappointed. Even though I live not far from one of the better model train stores in the country car kits have almost completely disappeared from the shelves, locomotive kits have completely disappeared, and scratch building supplies are fewer every time I visit. The store has a massive inventory but it's almost all RTR, scenery supplies, built ups, and Walthers plastic kits. The one hobby shop in our area that did have almost everything for a person who likes to build his own stuff closed a few years ago. Fortunately it’s easy to find supplies and parts on the Internet.

I think that some guys get upset that things are changing in the way people and manufactures approach model railroading. They miss the old ways of sharing the same interests and goals as most everyone else in the hobby. A few don’t seem to understand that some folks are not interested in building models, don’t have a 20 + year collection of tools and skills or simply have not reached a point where they are ready to bash and scratch locomotive’s, cars or structures. Unfortunately it appears a few can't project their feelings in an articulate and non-abrasive fashion either.

People such as myself who take a more craftsman type approach to the hobby are few. We typically spend less, nit pick more and are not the main group supporting the hobby. People who approach the hobby from an operational or collecting interest are much greater and now dominate the hobby. But every one loves trains and we can all still pursue our individual interests even if we **** off each other once in awhile. I remember about 40 years ago when I was about 10 some guys bashing RTR and telling me that my little Docksider was junk. In retrospect it was junk but it was exactly what I wanted then and it served me well. Thirty years ago I visited a club that was starting up and brought along my HOn3 models to see if they might be interested in possibly having a narrow gauge branch. They laughed me out of the room. You can still say “narrow gauge” and some folks will look at you like you’re a leper.

Some things change some don't. I wouldn't worry about it much or get too annoyed, as there is little benefit in it.

Bruce

[Anonymous]

Kinda torques me off, too. I really enjoy scratch building things, but had it not been for Bachmann's Spectrum RTR On30 series locomotives, I likely would not have gotten into that scale. Now, I have scratch built several On30 locomotives. I'll buy at least one or two more RTR locos, and I'm sure a lot of my rolling stock will be RTR. I think people need to mind their own beeswax.

[Don Gibson]

'LOCOMOTIVE (and other) KIT'S have alway's been 'minority' items for the hobby. LaBelle, Ambroid, and Intermountain's 'Craftsman' kit's primary appeal is to those with ''Look what I Built" motivation ... or possibly a hidden Masochistic streak - so what is wrong with that? ATHEARN's longtime popularity has been based on 'Shake the box' kit's that were cheap. (I wonder if there are still Athearn engine's running without their railing's that required soldeing?).

Dealer's have to stock what SELLS - if they want to stay in business.

If WE want to pay someone to assemble our product's for us (Chinese labor) that's our option. For those choosing to do their own, there is BOWSER, INTERMOUNTAIN, and other small specialty companies - but only if you hurry. Does anybody remember when car kit's were a block of wood or stripwood?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy
[What's the big deal with RTR locomotives and rolling stock?

I must claim that I am in the Kit Building Camp.

Here are my bones of contention with ready to run/ready to install model railroad items.

1. They are more expensive than kits of similarly detailed items.

2. They are harder to customise because if you want to change something. You have to dissassemble it in order to re work it. While this isn't that big a deal on Rolling Stock. Ready to Install buildings it causes serious problems, Instead of changing them on the sprue, It has to done another way.

3. All the "Fun" is gone.

4. I personally have terrible luck with ready to run purchases. Every piece of RTR equipment that I was given or have broke down and purchased. (Just for sake of comparison. I am only discussing "New" items) Have had what I deem to be serious quality control issiues.

5. If everything goes to ready to run. Who is going to put the Model in Model railroading? We will have to change it to Miniature Railroading.

Just how I feel about it.

James

[Train 284]

I agree with you brother all the way! I would never even think of building my own loco. That guy is just a big dumb s***

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

'LOCOMOTIVE (and other) KIT'S have alway's been 'minority' items for the hobby. LaBelle, Ambroid, and Intermountain's 'Craftsman' kit's primary appeal is to those with ''Look what I Built" motivation ... or possibly a hidden Masochistic streak - so what is wrong with that? ATHEARN's longtime popularity has been based on 'Shake the box' kit's that were cheap. (I wonder if there are still Athearn engine's running without their railing's that required soldeing?).

Don, locomotive (and other) kits have always been minority items in the hobby? I'm not sure where you've been but let's face facts, from the 1930's up through the mid 1980's our hobby was all about kits of every kind! For many years the only RTR stuff was mainly low end junk that no serious modeler even wanted...or very expensive brass.

What I think folks have to appreciate is that the craftsmanship is slowly going out of the hobby and this is what may have upset those two guys in the hobby shop. The current excuse is that the hobbyist has less time to build locos and cars, needing it to work on his layout. But an ever increasing range of RTR structures, roadbed, trees, etc. are becoming the standard and I'm sure finished commercial layout modules will be commonplace and popular before this decade is out. We are clearly moving away from the older craftsman's hobby that dominated for so many years and toward one of simple collecting and it is this that many established modelers resent.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

I think it is up to each individual and their own talents, and of course I agree time. Never enough time. I buy ready to run and some kits, but if I had a choice it would be all ready to run items.

[wctransfer]

I love RTR locomotives. the reason is most of the time the company gets the details correct, does well with the font and color. I dont have and airbrush,workbench, any of that. The only thing i have is glue! I even get satisfaction of glueing some details on, it may sound stupid , but thats all i have. For looks i go RTR, but if i want to do something , and i have a lot of time, i get a kit. I buy a lot of RTR stuff, and am pleased with them all. Some guys think too highly of themselves, and all i say is shove it.

Alec

[Anonymous]

my athearn b-b gp38-2 is missing the handrailings and #boards and i'm happy w/ the detail, it's one of my favorite engines

[selector]

Here's to RTR. May they populate every layout where they are needed and/or desired. I spend enough time on things trains, thank-you very much, and I don't need to get my skin alabaster white by staying indoors any longer than I already do by taking up train building. I'll leave that to others who are so inclined. Me, I like the turn-key approach....turn the key and the loco approaches. [:D]

[BRAKIE]

RTR engines isn't anything new..They have been around as long as I care to remember.You ever of PFM/United? Tenshodo? Balboa? Trains Inc ? Alco Models? Hallmark and other brass locomotive companies? Varney,Athearn and Mantua all had RTR engines..Companys like AHM,Lionel and Cox had RTR Engines and cars..
Nope nothing new under the sun here except todays RTR models are highly detailed.
As for me I love RTR engines and cars..I no longer want to look at a kit.After all I started building engine and car kits at the age of 10.

Now..I hope you have notice the influx of prebuilt structures..

RTR and prebuilt structures are the future of the hobby..

[dwRavenstar]

Some will criticize for the sake of criticism.

If you're not into railroad modelling you should be, if you're a modeller and run RTR you should scratch build everything, if you try your hand at scratching your talents are never going to be good enough. The guys who were messing with BigBoy would never run out of room for their own attacks.

It's a Hobby, a Past time, something to do that delivers personal enjoyment. Just as water finds its own level so do modellers. Do what satisfies YOU and revel in the satisfaction and enjoyment of your efforts and participation. Tell the nay-sayers to catch the next freight to a warmer climate.

dwRavenstar

[Anonymous]

I buy blue boxes. I buy RTR loco's. Will I buy RTR rolling stock. If the price is right you bet I will. As had already been stated. This is a fun hobby not a " I can out do you" hobby. Another thing to consider is age. Sooner or later the eyes and hands fail. Its your railroad, your money and what you spend it on is your business and yours alone. Phil

[bwftex]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

'LOCOMOTIVE (and other) KIT'S have alway's been 'minority' items for the hobby. LaBelle, Ambroid, and Intermountain's 'Craftsman' kit's primary appeal is to those with ''Look what I Built" motivation ... or possibly a hidden Masochistic streak - so what is wrong with that? ATHEARN's longtime popularity has been based on 'Shake the box' kit's that were cheap. (I wonder if there are still Athearn engine's running without their railing's that required soldeing?).

Dealer's have to stock what SELLS - if they want to stay in business.

If WE want to pay someone to assemble our product's for us (Chinese labor) that's our option. For those choosing to do their own, there is BOWSER, INTERMOUNTAIN, and other small specialty companies - but only if you hurry. Does anybody remember when car kit's were a block of wood or stripwood?

Don,
Most of the craftsman type kits from the companies you mentioned are not particularly difficult or painful to build. Unless following directions is difficult or painful. And the Intermountain’s are plastic stick on the parts type kits, you don’t have to make or form anything. One of the reasons folks build theses kits is because they fit the era and or prototype they are modeling because little else is available. Older steam era cars are poorly represented by RTR. One of the reasons these kits especially those in wood aren’t stocked much is because after you’ve built several you know how a car goes together and in what sequence so you don’t need any kits just some plans and some material. Some folks have fun building stuff, some don't. But how is a guy who builds craftsman kits a masochistic opposed to a guy doesn’t. Some folks get a lot of pleasure having a "look what I built " mentality, probably just as much as those who have a "look what I bought mentality". Bruce

[Anonymous]

I would buy a RTR any day of the week before I would buy a kit. Why spend the money on the kit and mess it up and make it look like crap. I'm also sure the resale value of a RTR is alot higher than one of a kit build. Just my thoughts.

[jrbernier]

You should ask the 'kit builder' just where he is going to buy a good HO diesel model(RTR or kit) if not from Kato, Athearn, P2K, Stewart or Spectrum. If I want a SD60 or a GP9 ph1, who do I get a 'kit' from? The kind of folks who make these statements have done no real modeling in years(or at least purchased model engines in the past 10 years).
Myself, a good undec 'kit' of any of the above engines would be nice, but I doubt if the price will be any better. Back in the 70's, I kitbashed Athearn GP7's into Milw GP9's, detailing/painting/decaling them. Those old engines do not compare with fleet of P2K engines I now have, and the P2K engines have correct paint jobs/numbers!
I attend a lot of flea markets/train shows and still see a lot of old stuff that the owners are trying to sell off(usually at prices too high for the market). The marketplace has changed, and we have to adjust to it.

Jim

[Anonymous]

I got no problem with RTR, theres so many RTR models on the market today that are just as detailed as any kit.

[BRAKIE]

Locomotive kits? Bowser and BearLocomotive has all the metal kits you want.

http://www.bowser-trains.com/holocos/holocos.htm

http://www.bearlocomotive.com/product/K001

http://www.bearlocomotive.com/product/K002

I built my fair share over the years so,ENJOY!!

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

(except you really cannot divide by zero)

Actually, there is one exception to that rule, where you can divide by zero. Anybody know what that exception is, and what the resultant value is (besides me, I mean)?
[:D]

[ICRR1964]

RTR are fine if people desire them, BRAKIE is so right on that there have been RTR around for years, but now we have all the details added instead of doing them ourselves. Its up to the person and what they desire and want. I don't bad mouth modelers who want these RTR units. Some people have more time than others, with the way the world is now with jobs and kids and other things that come up. I have never bought a new RTR run unit yet, but I thought about it after BRAKIE pointed out all the stuff that was made years ago and is still being made today, we all have bought a RTR unit one time or another.

Now if you want to build a Keystone Shay with a NWSL powering kit, thats allot of work and time. Just about done with mine, hate to think how many hours I got in it so far. To each his own I say!

[Todd McWilliam]

I once was a big BB locomotive kit builder. It took me a year to get them done, and they still did not look as good as a rtr. I only buy rtr stufff and finish detailing them out. My job and family keep me from building kits.

[twhite]

Jonathan--you were looking at a specific diesel and these toads told you to get a KIT of it? Did they offer in their infinite wisdom just exactly WHERE you were going to find a kit of this particular locomotive? Seems to me that THEY need the Reality Check, certainly no you.
Ignore them, they'll mutter a while and then go back to their Ivory Tower. They're probably the kind of 'experts' that hang around hobby shops and put everyone else down, but if the truth were known, their own Model Railroads are where they've been for years and will in all probability remain--in their imaginations.
Tom [banghead][banghead]

[ezielinski]

I started with the Athearn BB kits for engines, but now appreciate the realism and details of the RTR engines from Atlas, Bachmann (Spectrum), Kato and Life-Like (Proto 2000).

I've always preferred to build my my own rolling stock than to buy RTR. The RTR rolling stock if often over/underweighted and the couplers aren't set at the right height, so I have to take it apart and rebuild it anyway.

Just let what they say flow in one ear and out the other. Choose how YOU enjoy your hobby.

[icmr]

I like RTR a lot.



Victor

Happy Railroading.[swg][swg]

[TrainFreak409]

Another [2c] from me.

I think that Ready to Run does more to attract new members into this hobby than kits do. Especially in the current generation. We aren't called the Lazy Generation for nothing. (Eww...I hate including myself in that...)

Now, I may be making an assumption here, but, what would today's child want more...
a) A completely Ready to Run set that, once set up, can provide instant gratification?

Or

b) A bunch of kits, seperate track, power pack, et cetera, that must first be assembled before running?

I think that with today's children, they would want a Ready to Run set because they are so used to just opening a box and enjoying, and not aware of the feeling of accomplishment that a kit can provide.

So, a possible scenario being: Little Johnny is with his mom in Boscov's. He sees a small LifeLike starter set. Nothing fancy, and not expensive either. His mom purchases it for him. He goes home, sets up everything with some parental help, and runs his little locomotive around and around, constantly rearranging the signs, toy cars, and mountain that came with the set. Time passes, and soon, that oval is on a piece of plywood. His father comes home one day with a new boxcar for him. But the next week, his father brings him a new box; A Blue Box kit. Johnny and his father assemble the kit rather quickly, and find great pride in seeing the boxcar they built go around the loop.
A few months later, Johnny has built so many Blue Box kits, that he no longer needs his father's help, and has even purchased some of his own. His collection is growing steadily, and he is becoming quite confident in his abilities. His built-up structures are being replaced with kits he is starting to build. But then...His little LikeLike locomotive sputters out after months and months of running. So, he goes to the LHS, and finds a nice Blue Box F7, and he easily assembles it.
"Hey, that's a nice locomotive," Johnny said to himself, "And if wasn't all that challenging to build, either. Maybe I'll try a more complicated one next time..."

And it continues as such, were little Johnny progresses from RTR, to Blue Box, to full blown kits.

Now, playing devil's advocate here, kits could bring in more experienced hobbyists from maybe auto modeling, or model airplane builder/flyers. It could go either way, but I think RTR is what brings in most younger model railroaders. It brought me in to this hobby, in a very similar way as "Little Johnny."

[DALCruiser]

I have built my fair share of BB kits. I enjoy the hands-on work, but time is an issue some times and RTR is a real blessing. I also get a little pived when I run into the rich guys visiting the LHS and saying " Your not a REAL model railroader unless you buy BRASS kits or ready to finish BRASS models". I for one don't have that kind of discretionary mony to spend just on motive power.

I enjoy the Steam Era and I buy mostly Spectrum DCC ready RTR when I can and an occasional Atlas. As I get older, the old eye sight becomes an issue when assembling fine detail that some models require, thus RTR is a great way to get the detailed models I wish I could build.

Dave

[SpaceMouse]

They don't make either RTR or kits for either the California Western or the Northwestern Pacific in the 1917 era. So if I want something I have to customize it. Kits are easier to customize. I have nothing against RTR, but I have no use for them either.

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

(except you really cannot divide by zero)

Actually, there is one exception to that rule, where you can divide by zero. Anybody know what that exception is, and what the resultant value is (besides me, I mean)?
[:D]

Could it be zero divided by zero equals 1?

[ngartshore350]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

(except you really cannot divide by zero)

Actually, there is one exception to that rule, where you can divide by zero. Anybody know what that exception is, and what the resultant value is (besides me, I mean)?
[:D]

Could it be zero divided by zero equals 1?

You can divide by zeroand any number divided by zero is infinity! (Pure Mathematics) Sorry Engineer coming out[:D]

[davekelly]

Am I annoyed by folks putting RTR down? Yup. Even though I prefer to build kits and would love to scratchbuild everything I need - if I had the time and the talent, there is a place for RTR. Just like there is a place for kits, scratchbuilt, kitbash etc etc. There's a place for fine running highly detailed brass engines and a place for Tyco (yeah I know - someone will say the trash heap). There's a place for DCC and DC.

What annoys me are the folks that think everything other than what they personally use/do is somehow less than model railroading. Why is it that it is not "model" railroading unless the locomotive is a kit? Why can that person be a model railroader when he/she uses RTR track under the locomotive built from a kit? Isn't the track the essence of what defines a railroad? Where can we find the reference which says how much RTR you are allowed to have before you are not a model railroader? In that regard - what is a locomotive kit? Bowser? Athearn? Proto? Is sticking on grab irons enough to qualify a model as a kit or does one have to go so far as to actually wind the wire on the armature of the motor? Where is the dividing line? I think what will be found is that those that say that you have to build kits in order to be a model railroader will say that the "kits" they assemble are kits and anything with a lesser number of parts is not.

Who is more a "model railroader" - the guy that builds only Bowser type locomotive kits and uses RTR track, shake the box rolling stock and structures, or the guy who uses RTR locomotives and rolling stock but handlays every inch of track, scratchbuilds every building and concentrates on realistic operations?

Along the same lines - it seems that another popular pasttime is to call anything less expensive than what one runs "junk" and anything more expensive than what one runs as "things for those that have more money than brains."

As far as I am concerned, and this is just my opinion of course, if a person is running something that looks like a train and is smaller than 1:1 scale, and is having fun doing it - that person is a model railroader.

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

(except you really cannot divide by zero)

Actually, there is one exception to that rule, where you can divide by zero. Anybody know what that exception is, and what the resultant value is (besides me, I mean)?
[:D]

Could it be zero divided by zero equals 1?

You can divide by zeroand any number divided by zero is infinity! (Pure Mathematics) Sorry Engineer coming out[:D]

But isn't it that by definition anything divided by itself is 1? Engineer in me is also coming out.

[ngartshore350]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

(except you really cannot divide by zero)

Actually, there is one exception to that rule, where you can divide by zero. Anybody know what that exception is, and what the resultant value is (besides me, I mean)?
[:D]

I am sure any number divided by itself is one for all but zero, then it is infinity. But it has been a few years since leaving University. I remember something about using this in design a forth order Chebychev Filter (Excuse the spelling!)
Could it be zero divided by zero equals 1?

You can divide by zeroand any number divided by zero is infinity! (Pure Mathematics) Sorry Engineer coming out[:D]

But isn't it that by definition anything divided by itself is 1? Engineer in me is also coming out.

[ngartshore350]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

(except you really cannot divide by zero)

Actually, there is one exception to that rule, where you can divide by zero. Anybody know what that exception is, and what the resultant value is (besides me, I mean)?
[:D]

I am sure any number divided by itself is one for all but zero, then it is infinity. But it has been a few years since leaving University. I remember something about using this in design a forth order Chebychev Filter (Excuse the spelling!)
Could it be zero divided by zero equals 1?

You can divide by zeroand any number divided by zero is infinity! (Pure Mathematics) Sorry Engineer coming out[:D]

But isn't it that by definition anything divided by itself is 1? Engineer in me is also coming out.

Sorry lets try again!

I am sure any number divided by itself is one for all but zero, then it is infinity. But it has been a few years since leaving University. I remember something about using this in design a forth order Chebychev Filter (Excuse the spelling!)

[ngartshore350]

Back to the real topic, I find no problem with RTR, the Athearn locomotives are really well detailed now! I am going flat out to wire my layout, so to get a well detailed RTR loco is fine by me, I don't have time to sit down and detail a locomotive from a kit.

The cost is another issure, I can pick up a RTR far cheaper than a Kit and adding all the detail. I know there is a great deal of satifaction in detailing a loco but at the moment I am trying to get a layout going and then I will be doing scenery. When I am finished I might go back to a kit!

[davekelly]

ngartshore,

Check it out! http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/53636.html

Doing a little research seems to suggest that dividing by zero is "inderterment" instead of "infinity." Perhaps Brunton can fill us in on what he is thinking about.

[ngartshore350]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

ngartshore,

Check it out! http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/53636.html

Doing a little research seems to suggest that dividing by zero is "inderterment" instead of "infinity." Perhaps Brunton can fill us in on what he is thinking about.

Mmmm, strange beast indead looking at your link! As suggested it seems to vary depending on the application!

I will wait for the wisdom of Brunton as you do!

[Berk-fan284]

I prefer kits but sometimes RTR is the only way to go for specific locos or rolling stock and repainting and redecaling aren't very viable options either (hard to get and expensive decals,intricate paint schemes). Yes I have heard the do it yourself and learn the skills mantra of some of the local fanatics also.

[Tracklayer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy

I'm getting really sick of people putting down RTR equiptment. Just the other day I was looking at getting an Athearn RTR SD60 and the 3 guys I was talking with gave me a dirty look and said "Don't go wasting your time on that Athearn or Kato or Atlas***, buy a kit and build it yourself". This made me lose it. I replied "Well, I don't really have the time to build kits, not to mention locomotive kits are usually somewhat challenging, and the RTR is way better looking than I could ever make it look". They were infuriated by this and yelled "How are you ever going to know if you don't do it yourself!?" After that they made a quick leave. What's the big deal with RTR locomotives and rolling stock? They offer a quick way to get your trains running and look great. I would consider Kato locomotives RTR, too, even if you do have to apply the detail parts. Most people including myself just don't have the time, the skills or the patience to build kits. And mind you I'm just talking locomotives (kit rolling stock is fun, but RTR is nice once in a while). So lay off, pro-kit builders.

Anyone else feel the same way as me?[V][?]

I'm a smart, gifted and talented individual, and can build, assemble or repair just about anything you put in front of me - or at least I'll try. However, I don't put other people down because they can't. It took many years of trial and error for me to learn what I know and develop my skills. We're not all put together exactly alike. I also buy RTR any time I can.

Tracklayer

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tracklayer

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy

I'm getting really sick of people putting down RTR equiptment. Just the other day I was looking at getting an Athearn RTR SD60 and the 3 guys I was talking with gave me a dirty look and said "Don't go wasting your time on that Athearn or Kato or Atlas***, buy a kit and build it yourself". This made me lose it. I replied "Well, I don't really have the time to build kits, not to mention locomotive kits are usually somewhat challenging, and the RTR is way better looking than I could ever make it look". They were infuriated by this and yelled "How are you ever going to know if you don't do it yourself!?" After that they made a quick leave. What's the big deal with RTR locomotives and rolling stock? They offer a quick way to get your trains running and look great. I would consider Kato locomotives RTR, too, even if you do have to apply the detail parts. Most people including myself just don't have the time, the skills or the patience to build kits. And mind you I'm just talking locomotives (kit rolling stock is fun, but RTR is nice once in a while). So lay off, pro-kit builders.

Anyone else feel the same way as me?[V][?]

I'm a smart, gifted and talented individual, and can build, assemble or repair just about anything you put in front of me - or at least I'll try. However, I don't put other people down because they can't. It took many years of trial and error for me to learn what I know and develop my skills. We're not all put together exactly alike. I also buy RTR any time I can.

Tracklayer

I bet when asked you also help those that can't build, assemble or repair things. I"m sure they learn a bunch too. [:)]

[Eriediamond]

Yep, I too sometimes get a little annoyed. I do wi***here were more kits though, or semikits if you will. Let me ask this question, what is a model railroad?? Is a kit or scratch built detailed UP Challenger in a sealed case setting on a desk or fireplace mantle a model railroad? No, it's just a model locomotive. A model railroad consists of track, locos, cars, scenery, lighting, and so on. It's how we utilize all these things to make a model railroad. If it's so important to kit build a locomotive to qualify it for this, then why not say that ready to use sectional or even flex-track does not qualify. It's rediculous, Ken

[BRAKIE]

[Anonymous]

No, it doesn't annoy me anymore. It's a hobby, it's supposed to give me enjoyment and a release from the real world. Any hobby you find, RC planes ( don't build a Piper, do a Biplane), Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge, Steam vs Diesel, whatever, everyone will have a opinion on what they see is "Holy Grail" of a hobby. Do what you enjoy, I was in a hobby shop one time and was asked by another customer "why do I model the SOO Line and not another railroad". Life is full of choices, make the one that makes you happy.

Steve

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

(except you really cannot divide by zero)

Actually, there is one exception to that rule, where you can divide by zero. Anybody know what that exception is, and what the resultant value is (besides me, I mean)?
[:D]

I am sure any number divided by itself is one for all but zero, then it is infinity. But it has been a few years since leaving University. I remember something about using this in design a forth order Chebychev Filter (Excuse the spelling!)
Could it be zero divided by zero equals 1?

You can divide by zeroand any number divided by zero is infinity! (Pure Mathematics) Sorry Engineer coming out[:D]

But isn't it that by definition anything divided by itself is 1? Engineer in me is also coming out.

Sorry lets try again!

I am sure any number divided by itself is one for all but zero, then it is infinity. But it has been a few years since leaving University. I remember something about using this in design a forth order Chebychev Filter (Excuse the spelling!)

Actually, that's the tricky thing. In some fields of higher matheimatics the definition that any number divided by itself equals one is "superior" to the rule that any number divided by zero is undefined. So the correct answer to zero divided by zero equals one. That's one definition used in some higher mathematical fields. But usually it's just considered indeterminate.

So there is no real answer - it depends on what you're doing.

Kinda twists your brain around, doesn't it?

I think I learned this in abstract algebra, or perhaps it was in Partial Differential Equations.

[simon1966]

Well this thread took off quickly. Spend a day away from the PC and look what happens.

Each to there own. If you want R to R get them, if not don't. Simple really? But why the emotion?

First of all I think it is worth differentiating between Loco's and Rolling Stock. All but one of my freight cars are kits. Most of my pasenger cars are R to R (nearly minus grabs), virtually all my Loco's are R to R except one.

My one and only Loco kit is an old Roundhouse kit that was quite challenging for me and in the end did not yield very satisfying results. I have a few Athearn BB, but these are not really kits in the sense that you have to build the drive line etc. So I am a confirmed purchaser of R to R locootives and really would not consider otherwise.

Freight cars is a whole different story for me, and I think it is in the realm of freight cars that much of the emotion regarding R to R has occured in the past. I love kits, I make kist with my kids and derive a great deal of my modelling pleasure from freight car kits.

First a few obervations:
1. R to R freight cars are here to stay and are in demand.
2. Kits are still available from several manufacturers. Athearn, Accurail, Red Caboose Branchline etc.
3. Kits are much less available now then they were.

Here in lies the problem and the source of much of the emotion. If you are a kit builder it is much harder to buy what you want than it used to be. The selection at the store is dramatically reduced for lower cost simpler kits. For a long time post the Horizon acquisition of Athearn and Roundhouse there were many rumors that kits from these two companies were dead. We now know this is not true, but they are not available in nearly the selection or the qualntity as before. Has anyone seen a freight car kit announcement from P2K since the Walthers acquisition?

So from the kit makers stand point, something we love is seeminly threatened. They may not be dead, but gone are the days when my boys and I could go to the LHS and browse thru dozens, if not hundreds of kits to get our weekend father son projects on the go. It would be a great loss for me if this were to end.

For now the kit hangs on, so all is not lost.

Enjoy the hobby folks in what ever way floats your boat!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton
Actually, that's the tricky thing. In some fields of higher matheimatics the definition that any number divided by itself equals one is "superior" to the rule that any number divided by zero is undefined. So the correct answer to zero divided by zero equals one. That's one definition used in some higher mathematical fields. But usually it's just considered indeterminate.

So there is no real answer - it depends on what you're doing.

As a software writer, one thing I know for sure is that ANY quotient logic that attempts to perform a division by zero, will cause the application to crash![:D]

[timthechef]

I'm a kit builder too. I"m worried that kits are dissapearing from the market. I have to go to e-bay to find a simple steam engine kit. I've been trying to get chimneys for my railroad station project and can't find any at my local hobby stores. I understand that kits and scratch building is not for everybody, I'm just worried that the products in the hobby that I love are dissapearing.

[CP5415]

I don't get annoyed over it. I just shake my head!

What gets me annoyed are people putting down Athearn.
I've said it once, I'm gonna say it again " You can't go wrong with Athearn!'
These are words spoken to me when I joined the Sarnia Model Railroad Club in 1996 by someone who was running brass, Altas & Kato.

I still don't see the point in putting down Athearn but then again, I have been known to put down Kato & Atlas in the past.

Gordon
Gordon

[Anonymous]

Wow, I had no idea this topic would grow so fast.

First off, thank you to those who posted the kind words. I was letting off steam and I guess I am whining about it, but it still ticks me off.

As most people who replied said, I too purchase my locomotives RTR. Rolling stock mostly kits, but an RTR piece is nice now and then. I would NEVER buy an RTR structure or one of those woodland scenics modules. That's where the fun REALLY stops. Locomotive kits are one thing, but it ain't that hard to build a structure, and you can be proud of it when it's complete, too. The same can be said for locomotive kits I suppose. I respect the people who prefer kits, but it'd be nice if they'd lay off a tad. I guess I really should just ignore people like the 3 I was talking to the other day.

BTW, does anyone even make an HO SD60 kit?????

[TrainFreak409]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Who is more a "model railroader" - the guy that builds only Bowser type locomotive kits and uses RTR track, shake the box rolling stock and structures, or the guy who uses RTR locomotives and rolling stock but handlays every inch of track, scratchbuilds every building and concentrates on realistic operations?

Along the same lines - it seems that another popular pasttime is to call anything less expensive than what one runs "junk" and anything more expensive than what one runs as "things for those that have more money than brains."

As far as I am concerned, and this is just my opinion of course, if a person is running something that looks like a train and is smaller than 1:1 scale, and is having fun doing it - that person is a model railroader.

[#ditto]

I like your logic there. And that's a great question. Who is more a model builders? I can't answer it. It's going around and around in my head, but I just can't get to an impass.

This hobby is for fun, and you should enjoy at you see fit. Ready-to-Run, or build-it-yourself, it's all fun and games in the end.[:D]

[vsmith]

I have to say this is one encounter you would never have in large scale...

I can only say that in my scale G, I only wish we HAD more kits of locomotives! 95% of everything motive related is RTR which leaves alot up to our kitbashing skills. what kits there are, are pricey and often poor running. Selection is still very limited. I've had better luck scratchbuilding and bashing to get what I want than waiting for kits that might not ever get produced. So as it is RTR is just a given for most modelers.

As for RTR in HO, I personally feel you should do what ever helps YOU to enjoy the hobby, these guys were being just plain rude!

[tangerine-jack]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

I have to say this is one encounter you would never have in large scale...

I can only say that in my scale G, I only wish we HAD more kits of locomotives! 95% of everything motive related is RTR which leaves alot up to our kitbashing skills. what kits there are, are pricey and often poor running. Selection is still very limited. I've had better luck scratchbuilding and bashing to get what I want than waiting for kits that might not ever get produced. So as it is RTR is just a given for most modelers.

As for RTR in HO, I personally feel you should do what ever helps YOU to enjoy the hobby, these guys were being just plain rude!

Vic is right on the money with that, but he forgot to add that nobody can give a definative answer on just what the $#%@ing "scale" G scale actually is!!!! You can buy a "G" scale loco from one manufacturer and "G" scale cars from another, and one may be 1:22.5 and the other 1:32. Gives one a headache just thinking about it!

So all you HO scalers (me included!) quit whining about your astonishingly huge selection of cars, locos and accesories, KIT and RTR, get over your holier than thou attitudes if you think you found a "golden key" to model railroading. Come outside into the real world of model railroading GARDEN SCALE, and see for yourself how nice and un judgemental people can be in this hobby.

OK, I'm done now.

[David_Telesha]

I may be a little late.

I BUY ANYTHING THAT I SEE THAT I WANT [and can afford]!!!

I don't give a dang if its kit or ready to roll - if I'll be happy with it I'll buy it. I can build a kit and I can modify an RTR - if its a NH prototype and it meets my standard, its mine.

I have Proto 1000 engines, Athearn RTR RS-3's*, F&C Craftsman kits, and Branchline Blueprint kits all on my layout.

*= I'm still waiting for them to come in stock - but I do have them on order.

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton
Actually, that's the tricky thing. In some fields of higher matheimatics the definition that any number divided by itself equals one is "superior" to the rule that any number divided by zero is undefined. So the correct answer to zero divided by zero equals one. That's one definition used in some higher mathematical fields. But usually it's just considered indeterminate.

So there is no real answer - it depends on what you're doing.

Kinda twists your brain around, doesn't it?

I think I learned this in abstract algebra, or perhaps it was in Partial Differential Equations.

If it's thought of in a more practical way, this is something we All deal with. Wheather realizing it or not, we are all dealing with ohms law which states that current is voltage divided by resistance. Zero resistance is not something we deal with but in relative terms, think of what happens when a wire is laid across powered rails. The current draw shoots off towards infinity until it reaches the limit of the power supply. While the wire resistance may not be exactly Zero it is close enough to it in reference to the intended load of the power supply that one of 3 things will happen.. A, the smoke will come out of one part or another of the power supply, B, The fuse or circuit breaker will blow, or C, the district or entire system will shut down to protect itself (DCC) from overload.

To the topic of this thread.. Vent if you like, buy RTR if you like, build kits if you like, scratch build if you like, it's all about whatever You enjoy.. Anybody that thinks Brass is RTR has obviously never painted one, repowered one, or installed a decoder in one. Yes, you can take them out of the box, set them on the rails, apply power and they'll scoot down the track. However, if you want a finished model, RTR, NOT.

The fogies in the hobby shop are doing the same thing that has gone on for decades.. Lamenting (sp?) the way it Use to be. Pissed off that through all the mergers, acquisitions, and just plain dying off of the old kit manufacturers, they can't get what they think they want anymore. When in reality, most wouldn't let loose of the cash if it (whatever It is) Were still available. They'd find something about It to bash instead.

What I find disappointing at times is the current trend of Limited runs.. Mostly because by the time I've saved the ca***o get what I want, it's no longer available and I refuse to pay a collector price for something.

release valve closed, steam vented off..

Jeff

[BRAKIE]

Jeff,Don't characterize all old modelers as missing the "old" way..Many of us don't and truly enjoy todays RTR models.Heck,I enjoy the thought of prebuilt structures!!!

You just hit the old spike on the head in many ways other then kit vs RTR.[:D]

[Tracklayer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tracklayer

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy

I'm getting really sick of people putting down RTR equiptment. Just the other day I was looking at getting an Athearn RTR SD60 and the 3 guys I was talking with gave me a dirty look and said "Don't go wasting your time on that Athearn or Kato or Atlas***, buy a kit and build it yourself". This made me lose it. I replied "Well, I don't really have the time to build kits, not to mention locomotive kits are usually somewhat challenging, and the RTR is way better looking than I could ever make it look". They were infuriated by this and yelled "How are you ever going to know if you don't do it yourself!?" After that they made a quick leave. What's the big deal with RTR locomotives and rolling stock? They offer a quick way to get your trains running and look great. I would consider Kato locomotives RTR, too, even if you do have to apply the detail parts. Most people including myself just don't have the time, the skills or the patience to build kits. And mind you I'm just talking locomotives (kit rolling stock is fun, but RTR is nice once in a while). So lay off, pro-kit builders.

Anyone else feel the same way as me?[V][?]

I'm a smart, gifted and talented individual, and can build, assemble or repair just about anything you put in front of me - or at least I'll try. However, I don't put other people down because they can't. It took many years of trial and error for me to learn what I know and develop my skills. We're not all put together exactly alike. I also buy RTR any time I can.

Tracklayer

I bet when asked you also help those that can't build, assemble or repair things. I"m sure they learn a bunch too. [:)]

With the exception of my buddy Rob that I wrote about recently in my topic I'VE HAD ENOUGH!... Oh well. He'll either have to learn, or he'll have to find himself another hobby that doesn't require any skills.

Tracklayer

[Duce]

What most people dont think about is that we are in a hobby that has 1. many different levels of skill, and 2. Very Broad.
I have talked with people who enjoy buliding the kits and can really careless about anything else and if you take someone who is into scenery and show them his layout they would freakout. We each have our own reasons why we enjoy the hobby. I myself only have RTR at this point. However Im more into getting my layout up and running then to have a kit done at this point. I may in the future do some kits.

Its up to you in what you like. WHAT EVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK

[brothaslide]

Sorry to hear about this. We need to find ways to make people feel included to help the hobby grow. When we alienate each other, it just hurts the growth of the hobby.

[trainfreek92]

100% RTR for me[:D]

[Anonymous]

And tommorow "Nit Pickers" will still be picking "Nits". We either learn from their "wisdom" or are wise enough to shrugg them off. Each of us enjoys this "enterprise" in our own way. Much can be learned on the road less traveled, and listening to those who have traveled roads we ourselves have no seen or been on, yet. Perhaps some of us can be more tolerant of the ways others have gone, and appreciate that they are not walking in our shoes which are taking us where we are going, including down that fork less travelled, we may decide to take.
Will

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by KenLarsen

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton
Actually, that's the tricky thing. In some fields of higher matheimatics the definition that any number divided by itself equals one is "superior" to the rule that any number divided by zero is undefined. So the correct answer to zero divided by zero equals one. That's one definition used in some higher mathematical fields. But usually it's just considered indeterminate.

So there is no real answer - it depends on what you're doing.

As a software writer, one thing I know for sure is that ANY quotient logic that attempts to perform a division by zero, will cause the application to crash![:D]

If true, then some would say Windows is filled with divide by zero functions! [:D][:D][:D]

[grayfox1119]

Jonathan, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with RTR...end of story!! You will always find those people about who like to tell the rest of us what to do and how to do it WITHOUT being asked. I have bought BOTH types. Yes, RTR is more expensive, but that is an INDIVIDUAL choice, and no one else needs to get the hair up on their backs like an olde Tom cat. You could have just told these folks.." I don't recall asking for your opinion", but that would not be very nice at all. Or, you could just smile at them and say, " I'm loaded, price is no object, but I am so busy making all this money that I don't really have the time right now in my life to build these kits", I want to run them right away and get instant enjoyment. LOL

[jwar]

4884bigboy...Let it go..they are only big frogs in a very small pond.

I can hear the fire trucks comming..as I will get flamed over this.. and dont really care as this is only a hobby to me....BUT I see that every day on this forum, and wonder why some think everyone should follow the openionated.

Model railroading is no different then any other hobby, some are more advanced then others mainly due to monatary, skills and an internal desire to ones thing.

I could care less if one is into RTR, brass or whatever. This is a great hobby and I hope one shares and struts thier stuff...however some people here on this forum, in my personal openion, seem like they are a big frog in a small pond, by being snobs to others, as they get a tad rude buy showing their openions with very little respect to the other person.

I do respect ones openions untill they get a bit overboard by trying to force his views on me. As far as the modelers you mentioned, take them with a grain of salt and move on, or perhaps ask them about the car they drive, did they build it, or bought it RTR,....then just kindly LOL.

I was having a problem with some aspect of this hobby and one of the guys here got rather rude, as as I reread his statement to me and realiized he did not read my question at all, his anser was out in left field. This rather ticked me off, but then seen later he did this to others.


Take care...John

[Anonymous]

Bigboy you are right, some of the RTR cars Athearn has been coming out with are top of the line. I just picked up 2 of their new PS 3bay covered hoppers ,Wow the detail and the paint jobs are first rate. Check out their new 65ft mill gons, nice!!
Another thing annoying me and its on this forum once or twice aweek is the whining about price.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

I'm a smart, gifted and talented individual, and can build, assemble or repair just about anything you put in front of me - or at least I'll try. However, I don't put other people down because they can't. It took many years of trial and error for me to learn what I know and develop my skills. We're not all put together exactly alike. I also buy RTR any time I can.

Tracklayer