Anybody else getting annoyed........

[Anonymous]

I got no problem with RTR, theres so many RTR models on the market today that are just as detailed as any kit.

[BRAKIE]

Locomotive kits? Bowser and BearLocomotive has all the metal kits you want.

http://www.bowser-trains.com/holocos/holocos.htm

http://www.bearlocomotive.com/product/K001

http://www.bearlocomotive.com/product/K002

I built my fair share over the years so,ENJOY!!

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

(except you really cannot divide by zero)

Actually, there is one exception to that rule, where you can divide by zero. Anybody know what that exception is, and what the resultant value is (besides me, I mean)?
[:D]

[ICRR1964]

RTR are fine if people desire them, BRAKIE is so right on that there have been RTR around for years, but now we have all the details added instead of doing them ourselves. Its up to the person and what they desire and want. I don't bad mouth modelers who want these RTR units. Some people have more time than others, with the way the world is now with jobs and kids and other things that come up. I have never bought a new RTR run unit yet, but I thought about it after BRAKIE pointed out all the stuff that was made years ago and is still being made today, we all have bought a RTR unit one time or another.

Now if you want to build a Keystone Shay with a NWSL powering kit, thats allot of work and time. Just about done with mine, hate to think how many hours I got in it so far. To each his own I say!

[Todd McWilliam]

I once was a big BB locomotive kit builder. It took me a year to get them done, and they still did not look as good as a rtr. I only buy rtr stufff and finish detailing them out. My job and family keep me from building kits.

[twhite]

Jonathan--you were looking at a specific diesel and these toads told you to get a KIT of it? Did they offer in their infinite wisdom just exactly WHERE you were going to find a kit of this particular locomotive? Seems to me that THEY need the Reality Check, certainly no you.
Ignore them, they'll mutter a while and then go back to their Ivory Tower. They're probably the kind of 'experts' that hang around hobby shops and put everyone else down, but if the truth were known, their own Model Railroads are where they've been for years and will in all probability remain--in their imaginations.
Tom [banghead][banghead]

[ezielinski]

I started with the Athearn BB kits for engines, but now appreciate the realism and details of the RTR engines from Atlas, Bachmann (Spectrum), Kato and Life-Like (Proto 2000).

I've always preferred to build my my own rolling stock than to buy RTR. The RTR rolling stock if often over/underweighted and the couplers aren't set at the right height, so I have to take it apart and rebuild it anyway.

Just let what they say flow in one ear and out the other. Choose how YOU enjoy your hobby.

[icmr]

I like RTR a lot.



Victor

Happy Railroading.[swg][swg]

[TrainFreak409]

Another [2c] from me.

I think that Ready to Run does more to attract new members into this hobby than kits do. Especially in the current generation. We aren't called the Lazy Generation for nothing. (Eww...I hate including myself in that...)

Now, I may be making an assumption here, but, what would today's child want more...
a) A completely Ready to Run set that, once set up, can provide instant gratification?

Or

b) A bunch of kits, seperate track, power pack, et cetera, that must first be assembled before running?

I think that with today's children, they would want a Ready to Run set because they are so used to just opening a box and enjoying, and not aware of the feeling of accomplishment that a kit can provide.

So, a possible scenario being: Little Johnny is with his mom in Boscov's. He sees a small LifeLike starter set. Nothing fancy, and not expensive either. His mom purchases it for him. He goes home, sets up everything with some parental help, and runs his little locomotive around and around, constantly rearranging the signs, toy cars, and mountain that came with the set. Time passes, and soon, that oval is on a piece of plywood. His father comes home one day with a new boxcar for him. But the next week, his father brings him a new box; A Blue Box kit. Johnny and his father assemble the kit rather quickly, and find great pride in seeing the boxcar they built go around the loop.
A few months later, Johnny has built so many Blue Box kits, that he no longer needs his father's help, and has even purchased some of his own. His collection is growing steadily, and he is becoming quite confident in his abilities. His built-up structures are being replaced with kits he is starting to build. But then...His little LikeLike locomotive sputters out after months and months of running. So, he goes to the LHS, and finds a nice Blue Box F7, and he easily assembles it.
"Hey, that's a nice locomotive," Johnny said to himself, "And if wasn't all that challenging to build, either. Maybe I'll try a more complicated one next time..."

And it continues as such, were little Johnny progresses from RTR, to Blue Box, to full blown kits.

Now, playing devil's advocate here, kits could bring in more experienced hobbyists from maybe auto modeling, or model airplane builder/flyers. It could go either way, but I think RTR is what brings in most younger model railroaders. It brought me in to this hobby, in a very similar way as "Little Johnny."

[DALCruiser]

I have built my fair share of BB kits. I enjoy the hands-on work, but time is an issue some times and RTR is a real blessing. I also get a little pived when I run into the rich guys visiting the LHS and saying " Your not a REAL model railroader unless you buy BRASS kits or ready to finish BRASS models". I for one don't have that kind of discretionary mony to spend just on motive power.

I enjoy the Steam Era and I buy mostly Spectrum DCC ready RTR when I can and an occasional Atlas. As I get older, the old eye sight becomes an issue when assembling fine detail that some models require, thus RTR is a great way to get the detailed models I wish I could build.

Dave

[SpaceMouse]

They don't make either RTR or kits for either the California Western or the Northwestern Pacific in the 1917 era. So if I want something I have to customize it. Kits are easier to customize. I have nothing against RTR, but I have no use for them either.

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

(except you really cannot divide by zero)

Actually, there is one exception to that rule, where you can divide by zero. Anybody know what that exception is, and what the resultant value is (besides me, I mean)?
[:D]

Could it be zero divided by zero equals 1?

[ngartshore350]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

(except you really cannot divide by zero)

Actually, there is one exception to that rule, where you can divide by zero. Anybody know what that exception is, and what the resultant value is (besides me, I mean)?
[:D]

Could it be zero divided by zero equals 1?

You can divide by zeroand any number divided by zero is infinity! (Pure Mathematics) Sorry Engineer coming out[:D]

[davekelly]

Am I annoyed by folks putting RTR down? Yup. Even though I prefer to build kits and would love to scratchbuild everything I need - if I had the time and the talent, there is a place for RTR. Just like there is a place for kits, scratchbuilt, kitbash etc etc. There's a place for fine running highly detailed brass engines and a place for Tyco (yeah I know - someone will say the trash heap). There's a place for DCC and DC.

What annoys me are the folks that think everything other than what they personally use/do is somehow less than model railroading. Why is it that it is not "model" railroading unless the locomotive is a kit? Why can that person be a model railroader when he/she uses RTR track under the locomotive built from a kit? Isn't the track the essence of what defines a railroad? Where can we find the reference which says how much RTR you are allowed to have before you are not a model railroader? In that regard - what is a locomotive kit? Bowser? Athearn? Proto? Is sticking on grab irons enough to qualify a model as a kit or does one have to go so far as to actually wind the wire on the armature of the motor? Where is the dividing line? I think what will be found is that those that say that you have to build kits in order to be a model railroader will say that the "kits" they assemble are kits and anything with a lesser number of parts is not.

Who is more a "model railroader" - the guy that builds only Bowser type locomotive kits and uses RTR track, shake the box rolling stock and structures, or the guy who uses RTR locomotives and rolling stock but handlays every inch of track, scratchbuilds every building and concentrates on realistic operations?

Along the same lines - it seems that another popular pasttime is to call anything less expensive than what one runs "junk" and anything more expensive than what one runs as "things for those that have more money than brains."

As far as I am concerned, and this is just my opinion of course, if a person is running something that looks like a train and is smaller than 1:1 scale, and is having fun doing it - that person is a model railroader.

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

(except you really cannot divide by zero)

Actually, there is one exception to that rule, where you can divide by zero. Anybody know what that exception is, and what the resultant value is (besides me, I mean)?
[:D]

Could it be zero divided by zero equals 1?

You can divide by zeroand any number divided by zero is infinity! (Pure Mathematics) Sorry Engineer coming out[:D]

But isn't it that by definition anything divided by itself is 1? Engineer in me is also coming out.

[ngartshore350]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

(except you really cannot divide by zero)

Actually, there is one exception to that rule, where you can divide by zero. Anybody know what that exception is, and what the resultant value is (besides me, I mean)?
[:D]

I am sure any number divided by itself is one for all but zero, then it is infinity. But it has been a few years since leaving University. I remember something about using this in design a forth order Chebychev Filter (Excuse the spelling!)
Could it be zero divided by zero equals 1?

You can divide by zeroand any number divided by zero is infinity! (Pure Mathematics) Sorry Engineer coming out[:D]

But isn't it that by definition anything divided by itself is 1? Engineer in me is also coming out.

[ngartshore350]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

(except you really cannot divide by zero)

Actually, there is one exception to that rule, where you can divide by zero. Anybody know what that exception is, and what the resultant value is (besides me, I mean)?
[:D]

I am sure any number divided by itself is one for all but zero, then it is infinity. But it has been a few years since leaving University. I remember something about using this in design a forth order Chebychev Filter (Excuse the spelling!)
Could it be zero divided by zero equals 1?

You can divide by zeroand any number divided by zero is infinity! (Pure Mathematics) Sorry Engineer coming out[:D]

But isn't it that by definition anything divided by itself is 1? Engineer in me is also coming out.

Sorry lets try again!

I am sure any number divided by itself is one for all but zero, then it is infinity. But it has been a few years since leaving University. I remember something about using this in design a forth order Chebychev Filter (Excuse the spelling!)

[ngartshore350]

Back to the real topic, I find no problem with RTR, the Athearn locomotives are really well detailed now! I am going flat out to wire my layout, so to get a well detailed RTR loco is fine by me, I don't have time to sit down and detail a locomotive from a kit.

The cost is another issure, I can pick up a RTR far cheaper than a Kit and adding all the detail. I know there is a great deal of satifaction in detailing a loco but at the moment I am trying to get a layout going and then I will be doing scenery. When I am finished I might go back to a kit!

[davekelly]

ngartshore,

Check it out! http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/53636.html

Doing a little research seems to suggest that dividing by zero is "inderterment" instead of "infinity." Perhaps Brunton can fill us in on what he is thinking about.

[ngartshore350]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

ngartshore,

Check it out! http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/53636.html

Doing a little research seems to suggest that dividing by zero is "inderterment" instead of "infinity." Perhaps Brunton can fill us in on what he is thinking about.

Mmmm, strange beast indead looking at your link! As suggested it seems to vary depending on the application!

I will wait for the wisdom of Brunton as you do!

[Berk-fan284]

I prefer kits but sometimes RTR is the only way to go for specific locos or rolling stock and repainting and redecaling aren't very viable options either (hard to get and expensive decals,intricate paint schemes). Yes I have heard the do it yourself and learn the skills mantra of some of the local fanatics also.

[Tracklayer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy

I'm getting really sick of people putting down RTR equiptment. Just the other day I was looking at getting an Athearn RTR SD60 and the 3 guys I was talking with gave me a dirty look and said "Don't go wasting your time on that Athearn or Kato or Atlas***, buy a kit and build it yourself". This made me lose it. I replied "Well, I don't really have the time to build kits, not to mention locomotive kits are usually somewhat challenging, and the RTR is way better looking than I could ever make it look". They were infuriated by this and yelled "How are you ever going to know if you don't do it yourself!?" After that they made a quick leave. What's the big deal with RTR locomotives and rolling stock? They offer a quick way to get your trains running and look great. I would consider Kato locomotives RTR, too, even if you do have to apply the detail parts. Most people including myself just don't have the time, the skills or the patience to build kits. And mind you I'm just talking locomotives (kit rolling stock is fun, but RTR is nice once in a while). So lay off, pro-kit builders.

Anyone else feel the same way as me?[V][?]

I'm a smart, gifted and talented individual, and can build, assemble or repair just about anything you put in front of me - or at least I'll try. However, I don't put other people down because they can't. It took many years of trial and error for me to learn what I know and develop my skills. We're not all put together exactly alike. I also buy RTR any time I can.

Tracklayer

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tracklayer

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy

I'm getting really sick of people putting down RTR equiptment. Just the other day I was looking at getting an Athearn RTR SD60 and the 3 guys I was talking with gave me a dirty look and said "Don't go wasting your time on that Athearn or Kato or Atlas***, buy a kit and build it yourself". This made me lose it. I replied "Well, I don't really have the time to build kits, not to mention locomotive kits are usually somewhat challenging, and the RTR is way better looking than I could ever make it look". They were infuriated by this and yelled "How are you ever going to know if you don't do it yourself!?" After that they made a quick leave. What's the big deal with RTR locomotives and rolling stock? They offer a quick way to get your trains running and look great. I would consider Kato locomotives RTR, too, even if you do have to apply the detail parts. Most people including myself just don't have the time, the skills or the patience to build kits. And mind you I'm just talking locomotives (kit rolling stock is fun, but RTR is nice once in a while). So lay off, pro-kit builders.

Anyone else feel the same way as me?[V][?]

I'm a smart, gifted and talented individual, and can build, assemble or repair just about anything you put in front of me - or at least I'll try. However, I don't put other people down because they can't. It took many years of trial and error for me to learn what I know and develop my skills. We're not all put together exactly alike. I also buy RTR any time I can.

Tracklayer

I bet when asked you also help those that can't build, assemble or repair things. I"m sure they learn a bunch too. [:)]

[Eriediamond]

Yep, I too sometimes get a little annoyed. I do wi***here were more kits though, or semikits if you will. Let me ask this question, what is a model railroad?? Is a kit or scratch built detailed UP Challenger in a sealed case setting on a desk or fireplace mantle a model railroad? No, it's just a model locomotive. A model railroad consists of track, locos, cars, scenery, lighting, and so on. It's how we utilize all these things to make a model railroad. If it's so important to kit build a locomotive to qualify it for this, then why not say that ready to use sectional or even flex-track does not qualify. It's rediculous, Ken

[BRAKIE]

[Anonymous]

No, it doesn't annoy me anymore. It's a hobby, it's supposed to give me enjoyment and a release from the real world. Any hobby you find, RC planes ( don't build a Piper, do a Biplane), Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge, Steam vs Diesel, whatever, everyone will have a opinion on what they see is "Holy Grail" of a hobby. Do what you enjoy, I was in a hobby shop one time and was asked by another customer "why do I model the SOO Line and not another railroad". Life is full of choices, make the one that makes you happy.

Steve

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

(except you really cannot divide by zero)

Actually, there is one exception to that rule, where you can divide by zero. Anybody know what that exception is, and what the resultant value is (besides me, I mean)?
[:D]

I am sure any number divided by itself is one for all but zero, then it is infinity. But it has been a few years since leaving University. I remember something about using this in design a forth order Chebychev Filter (Excuse the spelling!)
Could it be zero divided by zero equals 1?

You can divide by zeroand any number divided by zero is infinity! (Pure Mathematics) Sorry Engineer coming out[:D]

But isn't it that by definition anything divided by itself is 1? Engineer in me is also coming out.

Sorry lets try again!

I am sure any number divided by itself is one for all but zero, then it is infinity. But it has been a few years since leaving University. I remember something about using this in design a forth order Chebychev Filter (Excuse the spelling!)

Actually, that's the tricky thing. In some fields of higher matheimatics the definition that any number divided by itself equals one is "superior" to the rule that any number divided by zero is undefined. So the correct answer to zero divided by zero equals one. That's one definition used in some higher mathematical fields. But usually it's just considered indeterminate.

So there is no real answer - it depends on what you're doing.

Kinda twists your brain around, doesn't it?

I think I learned this in abstract algebra, or perhaps it was in Partial Differential Equations.

[simon1966]

Well this thread took off quickly. Spend a day away from the PC and look what happens.

Each to there own. If you want R to R get them, if not don't. Simple really? But why the emotion?

First of all I think it is worth differentiating between Loco's and Rolling Stock. All but one of my freight cars are kits. Most of my pasenger cars are R to R (nearly minus grabs), virtually all my Loco's are R to R except one.

My one and only Loco kit is an old Roundhouse kit that was quite challenging for me and in the end did not yield very satisfying results. I have a few Athearn BB, but these are not really kits in the sense that you have to build the drive line etc. So I am a confirmed purchaser of R to R locootives and really would not consider otherwise.

Freight cars is a whole different story for me, and I think it is in the realm of freight cars that much of the emotion regarding R to R has occured in the past. I love kits, I make kist with my kids and derive a great deal of my modelling pleasure from freight car kits.

First a few obervations:
1. R to R freight cars are here to stay and are in demand.
2. Kits are still available from several manufacturers. Athearn, Accurail, Red Caboose Branchline etc.
3. Kits are much less available now then they were.

Here in lies the problem and the source of much of the emotion. If you are a kit builder it is much harder to buy what you want than it used to be. The selection at the store is dramatically reduced for lower cost simpler kits. For a long time post the Horizon acquisition of Athearn and Roundhouse there were many rumors that kits from these two companies were dead. We now know this is not true, but they are not available in nearly the selection or the qualntity as before. Has anyone seen a freight car kit announcement from P2K since the Walthers acquisition?

So from the kit makers stand point, something we love is seeminly threatened. They may not be dead, but gone are the days when my boys and I could go to the LHS and browse thru dozens, if not hundreds of kits to get our weekend father son projects on the go. It would be a great loss for me if this were to end.

For now the kit hangs on, so all is not lost.

Enjoy the hobby folks in what ever way floats your boat!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton
Actually, that's the tricky thing. In some fields of higher matheimatics the definition that any number divided by itself equals one is "superior" to the rule that any number divided by zero is undefined. So the correct answer to zero divided by zero equals one. That's one definition used in some higher mathematical fields. But usually it's just considered indeterminate.

So there is no real answer - it depends on what you're doing.

As a software writer, one thing I know for sure is that ANY quotient logic that attempts to perform a division by zero, will cause the application to crash![:D]

[timthechef]

I'm a kit builder too. I"m worried that kits are dissapearing from the market. I have to go to e-bay to find a simple steam engine kit. I've been trying to get chimneys for my railroad station project and can't find any at my local hobby stores. I understand that kits and scratch building is not for everybody, I'm just worried that the products in the hobby that I love are dissapearing.