OK, the cost of everything in Model Railroading has gone way up... that is fine and reality. Quality of everything is really much better... that is great.
How come we do not have a better choice for rail than Nickel Silver? When I began back in the 1970s, brass was bad, nickel silver was great because it had a conductive oxide and never needed to be cleaned. Tyco Tru-Steel was not successful as an alternative.
OK, we know that nickel silver track still needs to be cleaned, just see all the threads about this. The conductive oxide promise did not formulate well.
Why do we not have a better, and more expensive, option to choose from? There must be something better to make model rail from. Some sort of stainless steel? Some semi-precious alloy?
I have stated before that I think track is still the weakest point in this hobby, and something we all have in common to deal with no matter what your era or prototype.
Why are we still dealing with 1978 technology in trackage?
Walthers is releasing a $25.00 switch motor that looks "A+ #1 Fantastic!"
How about a $45.00 turnout that solves all my problems to go along with it? I would pay $12.00 for a piece of flex track that is bullet proof and never needs to be cleaned.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Your on to something there Kevin.
Stainless steel is a relatively good electrical conductor. I guess that would make too much sense.
I also wish they would make 8 foot rails that you feed into the 30 inch tie strips and have less joints on our curves
Stuff gets dirty, so will nickle silver or whatever other material. Many materials corrode or become otherwise compromised by well-known issues. But it's important not to confuse the two. You can do something about dirty track. Track that itself deteriorates is basically unsolvable without switching to something different.
N-S track never promised that it wouldn't need cleaning, simply that it would largely solve the problems associated with other track materials like brass or steel.
If you have a dirty track problem with N-S rail, then you either quit making it dirty or you figure a better way to clean it. It's not the track material that's the problem, but dirt and crud. If you don't solve the cleaning puzzle (depending on your local environment and other factors) they will still affect performance, even if the rail is gold.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Gold plated rails would do the trick. Of course the plating has to be thick since it is soft and will wear faster.
SeeYou190How about a $45.00 turnout that solves all my problems to go along with it? I would pay $12.00 for a piece of flex track that is bullet proof and never needs to be cleaned.
Of course the cost will be considerably higher than what you're willing to pay.
SeeYou190Why do we not have a better, and more expensive, option to choose from?
There is. The answer is S scale. I never clean my NS track. Apparently the heavier locomotive makes better contact.
Paul
Stainless steel does sound like the ticket, but...(and I'm the furthest from a specialist in metallurgy one could point at), it's quite a bit more costly to produce, and the tooling to make rail-shaped wire out of it would be costly and have to be replaced often as stainless steel is hard. Nickel silver is like Gruyer cheese compared to stainless steel. Then, there's that brittleness problem; NS has it all over stainless when it comes to bending it time in and time out.
A good question. And excellent points so far by all. We'll surely get a few electrical engineers and metalurgists to respond. They will likely speak of two issues. First, the material itself and such things as innate internal resistance, as some metals pass current (my old Navy electronic instructors called it "hole flow") more readily that others, The second regards the micro deposits produced when the transfer of that current passes between dissimilar materials (the rails and your engine and car pickups). And remember, there's still going to be dust and natural oxidation (look what happens to copper even without its being used as a conductor). More or less, our lot is to clean until we croak.
I understand the best is gold. Presuming an alloy that looked like steel, are we willing to go that far? Well, it might have a nice side benefit: in the case of an economic meltdown, we could turn our industrial spurs into food, clothing, gas and ammunition - not necessarily in that order, of course!
On occasion we are frustrated by the advance of technology because we assume that for most everything it should be almost unbounded, subject only to innovation. And as far as everyday consumers are concerned, economics. But in material matters, physics and chemistry establish the ultimate parameters. We could reset this entire issue into the realm of health. Why have we not yet gotten to the point of living until 500 or, being not too greedy, just 200? And if not even 200, why can't we at least look like we're 30 until we die?
Try to solder a wire to stainless steel track and you know why we are still with nickel silver!
Sir Madog Try to solder a wire to stainless steel track and you know why we are still with nickel silver!
Yup. Your right. I guess I never thought about that.
Stainless steel is one of the hardest Alloys to weld and it takes a fine tuned Craftsman to do it.
Your point is well taken.
Attuvian I think that it's the silver component of nickel-silver that makes it a far better conductor than brass.
I think that it's the silver component of nickel-silver that makes it a far better conductor than brass.
Except that there is no silver in nickel-silver.
And it is a worse conductor than brass.
Ed
[edit]
Brass has a resistivity of 6-8 microhm-cm, nickel silver is 20. Thus brass is about 3 times as conductive as nickel silver.
7j43k Attuvian I think that it's the silver component of nickel-silver that makes it a far better conductor than brass. Except that there is no silver in nickel-silver. And it is a worse conductor than brass. Ed
I will buy into your statement is true. It does make sense that we would be paying a lot more if it did have a percentage of silver content.
If it's not silver what is it, and why do they call it silver?
Is there also no silver content in Silver solder?
Track fiddler I will buy into your statement is true. It does make sense that we would be paying a lot more if it did have a percentage of silver content. If it's not silver what is it, and why do they call it silver?
Because if it's got the word "silver" in the term, people will pay more for it.
There is silver in all the various silver solders I've ever used.
Track fiddlerIs there also no silver content in Silver solder?
Silver bearing solder has silver in it.
mlehman Stuff gets dirty, so will nickle silver or whatever other material. Many materials corrode or become otherwise compromised by well-known issues. But it's important not to confuse the two. You can do something about dirty track. Track that itself deteriorates is basically unsolvable without switching to something different. N-S track never promised that it wouldn't need cleaning, simply that it would largely solve the problems associated with other track materials like brass or steel. If you have a dirty track problem with N-S rail, then you either quit making it dirty or you figure a better way to clean it. It's not the track material that's the problem, but dirt and crud. If you don't solve the cleaning puzzle (depending on your local environment and other factors) they will still affect performance, even if the rail is gold.
This point also well taken.
Pollution, dust, cigarette or cigar smoke, cooking, shedded skin, pet dander, you name it it's all in the air.
It gets hammered down to the rails by the little steel wheels rolling over and over again and again.
Track fiddlerIf it's not silver what is it, and why do they call it silver?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_silver
Track fiddler Is there also no silver content in Silver solder?
Yes, there is silver in silver solder, but that is a very different animal and not much use in our hobby. It has a higher melting (and flowing) temperature; in the range of 900 degrees to 1350 degrees depending on the composition. It can not be used with a Weller 40 watt iron, a fairly hot flame is needed.
As for using actual silver in the rails . . . it is not as ridiculous as it sounds, and probably not as expensive as you might think. Sterling silver (92.5%) would be excellent, coin silver (90%) would be every bit as good. Billion silver (40%) would be leap years ahead of our current brassy 'nickel silver'. Any alloy with significant amounts of silver would extrude well, conduct electricity well, flex extremely well, and tarnish to a very pleasing shade of gray. The railhead contact surface would gleam to a realistic mirrored edge. Most of the cost of manufacture for the current brass (yes, 'nickel silver' is actually brass) flextrack is in the tooling and workmanship, not the materials.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
Thanks for the info.
Learning a little something new everyday is a good thing.
It´s called nickel silver because it is as shiny as silver and has been employed as "fake" silver in household goods and jewelry.
selectorNickel silver is like Gruyer cheese compared to stainless steel.
The answer has been staring us in the face all along! Use Gruyere cheese for rail. After all we are moving to battery power anyway so conductivity and solder-ability will soon be irrelevant. We could bake our ties out of cracker dough and lightly melt the Gruyere cheese rails onto the ties. And best of all we'd finally have the respect of the French, which is so important.
Dave Nelson
SeeYou190Why are we still dealing with 1978 technology in trackage?
Kevin,Excellent question.
Let's start with my beef. Track is a model too and why does it still look like brass track from the 50s? Even C83 is clunky and toyish looking.
C70 rail would have been the better choice by far.
Regardless if flex track cost 99 cents or $99.00 it would still need cleaning because track cleaning worries has been shoved down our throats by the "experts".
I've said it before even with my DCC/Sound engines I still haven't found the need to constantly clean track. I still use nothing but,a old school bright boy that still works as far as cleaning track on a as needed bases.
I also think the decoders that features "Keep Alive" technology just may be the best thing since peanut butter and jelly.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I stand corrected. Thanks, Ed.
SeeYou190 OK, the cost of everything in Model Railroading has gone way up... that is fine and reality. Quality of everything is really much better... that is great. . How come we do not have a better choice for rail than Nickel Silver? When I began back in the 1970s, brass was bad, nickel silver was great because it had a conductive oxide and never needed to be cleaned. Tyco Tru-Steel was not successful as an alternative. . OK, we know that nickel silver track still needs to be cleaned, just see all the threads about this. The conductive oxide promise did not formulate well. . Why do we not have a better, and more expensive, option to choose from? There must be something better to make model rail from. Some sort of stainless steel? Some semi-precious alloy? . I have stated before that I think track is still the weakest point in this hobby, and something we all have in common to deal with no matter what your era or prototype. . Why are we still dealing with 1978 technology in trackage? . Walthers is releasing a $25.00 switch motor that looks "A+ #1 Fantastic!" . How about a $45.00 turnout that solves all my problems to go along with it? I would pay $12.00 for a piece of flex track that is bullet proof and never needs to be cleaned. . -Kevin .
.
Kevin, you are welcome to pay $45 for a turnout, I will stick with my $15 Atlas Custom Line, since I don't have any "issues" with them.
Same goes for flex track, Atlas works good and I buy it by the box of 300' for $400, not interested in paying 3 times that.
As noted by others, dirt and oxidation are two different problems.
Build your layout in a cleaner environment, run your trains more, you will clean track less.
Switch motor? Are you refering to the new ones from Rapdio? They look interesting, but again, pricey.
I don't use switch motors on turnouts that would be manually thrown on the prototype, so their switch stand feature does not interest me. But I'm sure it will be useful to many.
I only use switch motors for turnouts under CTC control......
I only have part of my old layout running while I am rebuilding it, but trains run just fine even after sitting a few weeks?
Sheldon
SeeYou190OK, we know that nickel silver track still needs to be cleaned, just see all the threads about this. The conductive oxide promise did not formulate well.
Kevin,
What's not known is how people actually clean their track. NS track comes fairly polished - i.e. at least at eye level - and really doesn't need much to keep it claan. Unfortunately, once locos start hesitating, out comes the Brite Boy (or some kind of abrasive medium ) and that once finely-polished rail finish now has micro-scratches larger than the original. This then exacerbates the problem by capturing dirt and crud more quickly; giving the illusion that track needs to be cleaned all the time to work well.
Other factors are also important:
These all can have effects on how well your layout operates and how often you need to clean the tracks for consistent operation.
My layout is/was in a finished, dry basement controlled by a dehumidifier. No one smokes in my household and we do not have any pets. The concrete floor is also carpeted. That said, I rarely needed to clean my track more than once or twice a year - if that - and I primarily used 91% alcohol to accomplish that.
So, yes - NS track is not as conductive as brass or copper. However, it's adequate enough and fairly inexpensive to produce. "Properly" caring for the surface of your track and keeping it as scratch-free as possible is the best proponent for a well-operating layout and reduces the amount of cleaning required drastically.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I found a chart listing the best alloys / elements to conduct electricity. The top 6 were 1. silver 2. copper 3. gold 4. aluminum 5. zinc. 6. nickel.
All track no mater what material will need to be cleaned if you want to have electrical conductivity. Dust is not very conductive (its made of dead skin cells, animal dander, hair particles, etc).
SeeYou190Why do we not have a better, and more expensive, option to choose from? There must be something better to make model rail from. Some sort of stainless steel? Some semi-precious alloy?
It has to be soft enough to cut with standard tools, otherwise you will need to purchase more expensive tools to cut your rail.
Why are some people still using 1950s technology to power their trains?
SeeYou190I would pay $12.00 for a piece of flex track that is bullet proof and never needs to be cleaned.
Have you considered battery on board? In that case I have a whole pile of Atlas Code 100 flex track that I would love to sell for $12 each.
Of course when you go that route you have to remember to charge your train before running.
Nickle-Silver? Well, when you understand what it really is it makes sense.
What it is is an alloy of copper and nickle. It goes back to the 19th Century and has gone by various names such as cupro-nickle, German silver, silverode and silveroid. It was popular for decorative effects on various things for its good looks and corrosion resistance. It was used for pocket watch casings and for a time for bullet jacketing.
The corrosion resistance and good electical conductivity has made it also popular for model train trackage. I'm and O gauger and use MTH nickle-silver track just for that reason. How much it dirties depends on what I'm running. Post-war Lionels don't dirty the tracks, in fact they polish it, but the current product with traction tires do tend to dirty it. Oh well, out comes the rag and the alcohol and a few minutes work to clean it.
The subject of stainless steel has come up. Bear in mind there's various grades of stainless, some better than others. The best grades of stainless won't attract a magnet, however those grades are the toughest to work with. A machinist friend of mine once told me working with stainless steel can reduce a grown man to tears!
To my mind, nickle-silver is the best way to go all-round. Nothing's perfect.
BRAKIELet's start with my beef. Track is a model too and why does it still look like brass track from the 50s? Even C83 is clunky and toyish looking.
Atlas code 100 flex ties are out of scale (too wide). Which is why I'm re-laying it on wood ties.
Depends on what you model.
PRR main line, and you need code 92 (ish). Modern mainlines, code 83 works just fine.
http://wpporter.worthygems.com/railweight.php
Firelock76What it is is an alloy of copper and nickle.
and usually zinc...
Do we all know that there is NO SILVER in nickel siver?
Nickel Silver is 46-63 % copper, 18-36% zinc, and 6-36% nickel. One reason to use in MR rail is the oxide is coductive. So I reallity we are just cleaning off the dirt? Cleaning your rail with a Bright Boy ( or sand papper) will scratch the rail which will hold more dirt.
inho...stainless steel rail would not work. It's conductance is one thing...but it's contact resistance performance is really bad. Peugot, in their infinite wisdom, made their separable headlight connectors out of stainless. They had to be literally scrubbed clean every few weeks to keep the headlights lit. Gold contact resistance is superb (cost be darned) but it's wear resistance is negligible..platinum or palladium might be better than so-called nickel silver but maybe not...crud is crud and that is our bigger problem in modelrailroading and crud contact resistance problems would overshadow any (marginal) improvement in oxide contact resistance...
dknelson selector Nickel silver is like Gruyer cheese compared to stainless steel. The answer has been staring us in the face all along! Use Gruyere cheese for rail. After all we are moving to battery power anyway so conductivity and solder-ability will soon be irrelevant. We could bake our ties out of cracker dough and lightly melt the Gruyere cheese rails onto the ties. And best of all we'd finally have the respect of the French, which is so important. Dave Nelson
selector Nickel silver is like Gruyer cheese compared to stainless steel.
Slight correction - Gruyere is in Switzerland. Gruyere cheese is the one that goes into the famous Swiss cheese fondue.