As per request by the OP...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Kevin, you need to substitute the glue bottle from the other thread here, in place of the horse.
I confess that the last couple of days of discussion have made me think carefully about alternative rail construction, though, in a way that would not have happened had the thread not been revived as it was.
LastspikemikeReading the OP reveals the point made that nickel silver rail is very old "technology", the connection being with conductivity problems.
Not exactly. I referred to trackage in HO being 1978 technology, which I admit was a year chosen more-or-less at random.
The nickel silver rail is one problem, but this thread went parallel with a couple of other threads I started at the same time that were about other shortcomings with track design.
This thread is old, has lost its context with the other threads, has went through more than what I intended, and I have come to a resoltution on the entire HO scale tackage subject.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
OvermodWayne: be sure you include a connector somewhere on the rear of the tender that will facilitate his adding one or more 'dedicated cars' with more battery capacity in them. I suspect he's unlikely to get 'extended runtime' from an open-frame motor even with NIB retrofitted field magnets...
I agree, and had also thought about putting better magnets in the motor or replacing it with a can motor, but he's rather adamant about his choices and, knowing him fairly well, I think that he'd prefer to first see if his choices have any merit. I don't doubt that I'll need to make some modifications after he's tried it (if it doesn't go up in smoke), but if he wants the rest of his locos converted, he'll be pretty-much on his own. Hopefully, what I'm doing will at least work, and if it's satisfactory, can be used for him to simply follow the mess that's in the tender as a guide.
The surprising aspect of this experiment, for me, at least, is that he's been a very strident opponent of anything to do with DCC, for as long as I've known him.
Wayne
I was in the process of posting that 'dead rail' issues ought to be moved to their own thread to keep the focus on better rail composition, in part to keep the thread on the OP's indicated topic, when I read the foregoing post. (It should still be so moved, to its own topic, if moderators care to do so).
SeeYou190I have never been as happy with HO track as I was with Peco's "code 55" track when I was in N scale. I was hoping there was something to be had that was better before I built my lifetime HO scale layout. Nothing came to light.
On the other hand, reviving it after 2017 has in fact brought up some more alternatives, and I think if it can be so revived, it can be so preserved as an open topic ... provided that it stays on better conductivity and maintenance concerns, or more accurate or better rail form or ... what's the right word for ease of working with something to make or build better track?
The thread nominally and practically has had little if anything to do with personal preference in choosing a track system, and as such, has no reason to be terminated when someone, OP or otherwise, elects to make a peripheral choice of that kind. In my opinion, anyway. Anybody reading and responding to the original post as actually written will agree with me.
What, as an interesting index of the 'possible', is the current street value of that "$12 piece of flextrack that never needs cleaning"?
(And what is "Resolition"? )
I was the OP for this thread over three years ago.
When I made this post I was designing my next (and last) layout, and had not bought any track yet.
I have never been as happy with HO track as I was with Peco's "code 55" track when I was in N scale. I was hoping there was something to be had that was better before I built my lifetime HO scale layout.
Nothing came to light.
I bought a huge amount of NOS Walthers/Shinohara old style (non-DCC friendly) turnouts for the layout. I have used these before, and I am familiar with them.
Since none of this matters anymore, I have decided what track to use, and discussion is drifting away from topic... the moderators can lock this thread.
Wayne: be sure you include a connector somewhere on the rear of the tender that will facilitate his adding one or more 'dedicated cars' with more battery capacity in them. I suspect he's unlikely to get 'extended runtime' from an open-frame motor even with NIB retrofitted field magnets...
One of the secret projects in dead rail involves self-making and breaking connections to 'external batteries' via the couplers. This is a bit less concern in "British" practice as it can be done fairly expediently through buffers, but it becomes of interest to North American modelers if physical or noncontact wiring connections (e.g. from the tender via a harness to following vehicle(s) or some kind of inductive loop coupling in car ends) is deemed undesirable.
It could be argued that such a connection between cars might also facilitate extended pickup wiring...
LastspikemikeFor me the appeal would be compatibility between DC track power and DCC control. No more dual systems with failsafe power switching.
It would not be *that* difficult to build in an optically-isolated conversion bridge to recognize, and utilize, DCC track-power modulation in addition to, or as a default in the absence of, the wireless modulation. I would argue that such capability be designed in as part of a dead-rail standard -- but then again, I'm from New York and always have operating contingencies ad nauseam built in as a reflex. [You would have one or more CVs assigned to handle the priority of wireless vs. track reception and handoff ... only one, done correctly, would serve for most circumstances...]
The technology for wireless power to locomotives has been around for more than a century; in fact the development at Wardenclyffe was predicated on a version of it. There are a number of prospective drawbacks that make its acceptance, shall we say, decidedly uncertain. Somewhat more likely (or less unlikely) is the adaptation of Qi-like high-frequency charging at distributed points on a 'dead' layout to keep onboard primary storage well-charged in normal operation. In my impression these types of solution are nowhere near as good as use of 'available electricity' no matter how modulated or provided to perform near-continuous charging -- and for systems to prompt users properly when that electricity is wanting.
Lastspikemike I had thought that wireless DCC still needed to pick up the track DCC signal.
I had thought that wireless DCC still needed to pick up the track DCC signal.
No, the wireless versions broadcasts the DCC packets over a wireless link of one sort or another. Having a keep alive in a regualr DCC loco requires getting the DCC signal from the track - the loco will continue based on the last received instructions until the capacitor drains if it encounters dirty or unpowered track. Hence I can take my Walthers Plymouth switcher off the track and let it run across my desk like a windup toy.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Wireless DCC has been here by a couple of companies. Battery tecnoligy is here too but it is changing so fast that no one wants to commit. the battery stuff is changing about every 6 months or so, makes Moore's law seem slow.
Battery power has become much more common in garden railroads. Of course, the size of the models makes a difference.
Rail-powered garden railroads fight a constant battle with track cleaning and wiring. The battery solves both those issues.
I would love an inexpensive battery powered locomotive in N Scale.
York1 John
I asked my doctor if I gave up delicious food and all alcohol, would I live longer? He said, "No, but it will seem longer."
Mr. Emett would be sad to see his name so misspelled -- and in a monicker, too! "Emmet" is for ants... just like "Emmett" is for . Everyone with the interest should join this...
We have discussed various flavors of 'dead rail' repeatedly on this forum, including the varieties set up to charge the batteries asynchronously, and preserve DCC-like logic signals sent through the trackwork when Lenz-style power modulation is not used. Track cleaning would still be required in many such cases (and this, in fact, would give some pretty fair comparison numbers for crud as a consequence of electrical causes like accelerated oxide and microarcing vs. crud as 'environmental settling' and humidity, etc. in the layout room) but presumably far less critical to operation -- ditto for wheels, I think.
There are very good solutions for joining small wire to stainless steel; they were evolved quite nicely for far thinner sections of stainless in far more critical applications in the airframe industry. However, they involve techniques unfamiliar to modelers (especially as you get into the higher-temperature brazes appropriate to high-speed flight!) including spot heating and the equivalent of resistance soldering. (A fringe benefit being that great heat at high speed in a small spot area also results in limiting afterheat distortion of ties, etc. - most cost-effective alloys of stainless are relatively poor conductors of heat, which is why they aren't used in most steam-locomotive boiler fabrication successfully
The most common stainless alloys can work-harden severely, I don't think this would normally be a substantial concern in model trackwork (and in fact might be an advantage for gleaming) except that cuts need to be made with a sharp saw and, once started, kept cleanly cutting at the bottom of the kerf right to the end. I don't know if you'd need a roller arrangement to bend rail smoothly in flexible track.
Discussions I have read indicate that the 'nickel silver' rail alloy has just enough 'white' alloying agent in it to make the copper color of the 'balance' disappear. Presumably this conveys the anti-tarnish "oxide layer" protection at that level of alloying.
Plating with non-oxidizing/better conducting material isn't going to be satisfactory in many cases, particularly if the track is cut to fit, or exposed to any material or circumstances that induces the plating to separate. I had thought at one point of testing whether explosive-facing methods (as tried in Russia to hard-face full-scale rail) could be used to join a very hard face layer to something relatively cheap and a good conductor (like a typical electrical brass) but this is more work than making the whole rail out of noncorroding material, and probably not worth the cost and effort even if it worked.
For a while there, I was expecting alloy or bullion silver to come into the general range of 'hobby pricing', in particular as medical imaging replaced silver-based X-ray emulsions. That hasn't quite happened... yet. A good cuprosilver probably represents a reasonable rail material, could be rolled into reasonable small profile, and there is far less sulfur in the air in these days of ULSD and decline in coal-fired heat and electricity. Remains to be seen how the market would receive it.
Jus an aside to this thread. Over here in the UK there was a gentleman who ran his 00/H0 locomotives with batteries inside. He said he never had to clean the rails as no electricity ran thru them.
Because of no electricity running thru the rails he was able to make some wonderful and weird objects. His 0.2.0 locomotives were a delight to see. As were the carriages that ran with them.
His modeling hero was Rowland Emmet and he always signed anything 'Emmetman'.
Now he probably will be building models for the 'Great Model Railroad/Railway' 'upstairs'.
David
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
Track fiddlerExcept that there is no silver in nickel-silver. And it is a worse conductor than brass.
Nickel silver is a type of brass that because of aditives appears silver (which is closer to the appearance of the prototype steel) than brass which appears yellow.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Wow Randy
I hope you breathed once or twice while you said all that.
I still haven't hit the rack yet but apparently this tread still isn't resolved.
I'm sorry, I just threw this one in here because it was one of my favorite threads through the years. I got tripped up in the middle. Still like it though. Seems to be continuing
You have a lot of good points Randy. I would have to agree with them.
TF
Maybe because there's nothing really to solve? Nickle silver is still the best choice when comparing all teh pros and cons. I suppse there might be some alloy out there that solders as easily as nickle silver, conducts as good or better, resists corrosion (no one really promised nickle silver would bring an end to track cleaning, though in a dust free environment, you don;t have to do much - it still remains that the oxide of brass is a complete non-conductor and that of nickle silver does conduct, just not as good as clean nickle silve. The problem is not the oxidization layer, it's all the other gunk that accumulates,. ANd gets made worse by people using abrasice cleaners), is easily formed into rail shapes, is flexible, etc. But if it costs 10x per pound compared to nickle silver, it will never sell, so why bother? For anything with a significantly higher price to supplant nickle silver, it would have to fix everything about NS that is neutral or a negative. Without taking away any of the positives, or adding new negatives (besides the cost).
Nickle silver in model railroad use may only be essentially 40-50 years old, but nickle silver in other uses goes back a lot longer than that. Many of the same characteristics that make it work as model train track make it work for other purposes as well. Any replacement alloy would have to also be useful outside of model railroading, the market just isn't big enough, even if 100% of model railroaders switched overnight (and you know that will NEVER happen). We've had a full line of Code 83 products for HO scale, which looks a lot better than Code 100, and plenty of people use nothing but COde 100 still. Plenty of people still use brass track even. Even when the #1 supplier of track was having problems maintaining stock, Rapido's attempt to fill the void with perfectly usable flex track fell right on its face. People who didn;t switch to Peco just waited it out until Atlas started shipping again - that's how conservative model railroaders are. They'd rather stop working than switch to a different product. And when you're talking something that's also different, and not just an alternative that looks and acts exactly the same - even fewer will try it. And unless you were already going to tear upo your layout and start a new one, how many would actually rip out what they already built and replace the track? Not many. Maybe use the new stuff going forward, but go back and rip up all the previous work? Not likely.
Here's some enthusiasm and it never did get resolved
[quote user="Sir Madog"]
Try to solder a wire to stainless steel track and you know why we are still with nickel silver!
Hi Ulrich,
I didn't have read all the comments on this topic, just a few of them.
But You have completely right, stainless steel is not an easy stuff to solder.
As an iron maker by formation stainless steel need a lot of preparation and clean of before it could be soldered.
One of the biggest problem with stainless steel is the need of an" gas atmosphere" where the part need to be soldered, because without this gaseous atmosphere lot of carbon is included in the solder which cause corrosion of the solder, weak point and even corrosion on the stainless steel.
Second like steel, stainless steel need a hight temperature to be soldered around 800 to 900°centigrade, just to put a solder material and have a good "gluing" action on the stainless steel with a like blowtorch welding process.
This kind of material is soldered generaly by melting the two ends of the parts togheter and this ended with a strong joint, arc welding is also possible but the quality of the solder is much under of the quality of under gaseous atmosphere welding process, temperature here is around 1.300° centigrade as a minimum.
The small solder iron we use would just have a small gluing action on the track with poor contact and solidity; anyway a weak point solder.
The techniques used to solder stainless steel are far from the scope of our hobby, they are named MIG, TIG or arc welding; the blowtorch welding is nearly never used to solder it and anyway the hardware to solder is big and need protection and power.
I'm not an engineer, but I'm not sure about the conductive electrical quality of stainless steel, for sure this quality is not very better than common steel wire.
Further, if the contact in a locomotive are not better than today, put it on an stainless steel track just move the problems from the track to the locomotive.
And an another bad news, copper find in all the wire is not very compatible in soldering unity with steel or stainless steel because of corrosive action between the two materials because of chemicals and mineral action, far from what I can explain.
So if stainless steel could be a solution about corrosion, working with it is beyond the scope of our hobby.
And about platinium, the cost will be prohibitive, and for soldering we come back with the same troubles as stainless steel, just platinium need more protection to offer a solder joint which not corrode and need more heat than steel or stainless steel to be soldered, so forget it.
Hope this help.
SeeYou190 I just saw an ad for a "new" ho track system from Trix that uses stainless steel rail. . I wonder if this will be an advantage. Does anyone know much about this track? . -Kevin
I just saw an ad for a "new" ho track system from Trix that uses stainless steel rail.
.
I wonder if this will be an advantage. Does anyone know much about this track?
Not really new! The Trix C-Track is the 2-rail DC version of Marklin´s C-Track 3-rail AC track system, which is in the market for 20 odd years now. It has stainless steel rail, which makes it a pain to solder. Aside from that, both track systems have molded on roadbed, which makes them less appealing.
rrinkerThe FIRST Rearden metal car might go unpainted
If I remember correctly, the first bridge made of Rearden Metal on the John Galt Line was never painted.
Oh, how I want an HO scale set of decals for the Taggart Transcontinental Railroad.
Didn't the leave one of the very first all-aluminum cars unpainted, to showcase the fact that it was made of aluminum? The FIRST Rearden metal car might go unpainted - after that, no way, the marketing people would get their say and the colorful paint jobs would return.
Shouldn't the prototype replace steel rail with something better. After all they have been using steel for over 130 years.
Nickel silver has only been used for model rail around 40 years.
SeeYou190 Was I the only one who thought Dagny Taggart sounded like the perfect female companion? I am not aware of any tests performed related to the electrical conductivity of Reardon Metal. Was it ever used to manufacture wires? I know it was used in rails and bridges. Would a boxcar made of Reardon Metal need to be painted? -Kevin
I am not aware of any tests performed related to the electrical conductivity of Reardon Metal. Was it ever used to manufacture wires? I know it was used in rails and bridges. Would a boxcar made of Reardon Metal need to be painted?
Nah, I think there were (and still are) quite a few that admired her - and thought decidedly less of her sycophant brother and his smarmy pals. Then again, if you support the premises of the book, all the good guys (and the good gal) are top shelf by design. That's the function and fruit of the author's creative purpose. As model railroaders, I think we innately understand the notion.
As for Rearden metal, we're told that its two major elements are iron and copper. I don't think conductivity would be an issue. As for ductility, well, isn't even stainless steel drawn into wire? Maybe not as a rust preventative, but it would be hard to keep such cars from being painted. If the ad men and PR guys in the front office wouldn't see to it, there'd be plenty of local "artisans" to give it a go. But that's a subject trail that ends right here!
John (but not quite Galt)
AttuvianHere's the answer: Rearden Metal! Admittedly, this is a test for forum participants who know what it is before googling it!
Was I the only one who thought Dagny Taggart sounded like the perfect female companion?
Funny thing.
The slumlords always pay their bills.
Or, so it's my experience.
Ed
rrinker I HATE thoose Shark Bites things. Never in my house! I hate plumbing so as it is. GF's nephew hooked up shutoff valves for my washer (yeah - the original owners did not have any shutoff there! If the hose were to blow, I would have to run to the opposite end of the house and shut off the water to the whole house!). Serious mess, one he just screwed the valve on to the existing thread, no issues. The other he put a shark bit on to adapt to a threaded piece to screw the valve to. Well, from day 1 it leaked. It stopped dripping if all tension was taken off the hose. I finally got fed up and got a plumbing torch (heck I'm pretty good at soldering everything else...) and a soldered coupler and threaded adapter (luckily everything he got came in paks of 2 so i was able to take the existing things with me and match up the right sizes - usually I either get a couple different things or else make repeat trips to get the right size). Naturally had to shut off the whole house because I was removing the valve. Getting the shark bite off was a real pain, without their special tool. I hacked the heck out of it until it finally came off. Problem 1, he never cleaned up the exposed pipe, it was almost black. Cleaned it all up nice and shiny with sandpaper, applied plumbing flux, stuck the new part on, and lit up my torch. It ain't pretty but no drips when I turned it back on. Considering there was no way to get the torch on about 1/3 of the way around, I'd say it went pretty well. Just like I won't use suitcase or other crimp-only connectors for electrical wiring - no shark bites on the pipes, either. Solder only. So yes, practice soldering, it's worth the effort to get good at it. Just gotta have the right tool for the job. And things need to be clean to join well. Just don't try to use the plumbing torch on model railroad track. Or the plumbing solder - it's usually acid core and the acid will act like an electrolyte in a soldered electrical joint and will corrode the metal at the joint when electricity flows through it. --Randy
I HATE thoose Shark Bites things. Never in my house! I hate plumbing so as it is. GF's nephew hooked up shutoff valves for my washer (yeah - the original owners did not have any shutoff there! If the hose were to blow, I would have to run to the opposite end of the house and shut off the water to the whole house!). Serious mess, one he just screwed the valve on to the existing thread, no issues. The other he put a shark bit on to adapt to a threaded piece to screw the valve to. Well, from day 1 it leaked. It stopped dripping if all tension was taken off the hose. I finally got fed up and got a plumbing torch (heck I'm pretty good at soldering everything else...) and a soldered coupler and threaded adapter (luckily everything he got came in paks of 2 so i was able to take the existing things with me and match up the right sizes - usually I either get a couple different things or else make repeat trips to get the right size). Naturally had to shut off the whole house because I was removing the valve. Getting the shark bite off was a real pain, without their special tool. I hacked the heck out of it until it finally came off. Problem 1, he never cleaned up the exposed pipe, it was almost black. Cleaned it all up nice and shiny with sandpaper, applied plumbing flux, stuck the new part on, and lit up my torch. It ain't pretty but no drips when I turned it back on. Considering there was no way to get the torch on about 1/3 of the way around, I'd say it went pretty well. Just like I won't use suitcase or other crimp-only connectors for electrical wiring - no shark bites on the pipes, either. Solder only.
So yes, practice soldering, it's worth the effort to get good at it. Just gotta have the right tool for the job. And things need to be clean to join well. Just don't try to use the plumbing torch on model railroad track. Or the plumbing solder - it's usually acid core and the acid will act like an electrolyte in a soldered electrical joint and will corrode the metal at the joint when electricity flows through it.
Well, given a choice I will take CPVC supply piping over copper any day. Totally non reactive, easy, inexpensive.
Been sweating copper plumbing since my teens, but now only when we have to.
Shark bites, use them all the time. No failures when properly installed, best way to join copper to CPVC or PEX. Use them on PEX for hydronic heating systems all the time. Beats the old compression PEX fittings any day.
But, shark bites should not have been used as an adapter to a hose bib valve as you described, that was a no-no.
Washing machines should have a proper valve box, or the valves themselves should be securely mounted, either directly to a wood block on the wall, or soldered to a securely mounted copper line.
Don't blame the product because someone used it incorrectly.......
Properly and neatly sweating copper pipe is actually done by heating the joint, no need to move the torch around the pipe, then removing the flame and flowing the solder into the joint until it just starts to drip/flood.
Sheldon
Interesting story Randy. I can agree150%.
We were working in Uptown Minneapolis where all the slumlords are.
They do pay so we work for them.
They want to pack more tenants into the building to turn a bigger buck so they pay to make it so.
This was a three-story unit. You have to open up all the valves in the whole building and the water will never stop dripping in the basement all day long. You can't solder a pipe with dripping water. Thats why we use shark bites.
Actually shark bites have never failed me. My partner brought some off brand ones and we had a defective one.
Good talking to you again.
And thanks for your advice as it was well recognized.
Soldering track seems much more different to me than soldering plumbing pipes. Neither one is easy. I think it depends on what you're used to doing and how you know how to do it.
Take care
Track fidler
Edit. As soon as I get a break from my work I am going to practice soldering rail joiners using the Info you all shared.
Thank you