Nickel silver is probably one of the best compromises that can be made. It's realtively inexpensive, is easily machined, and the oxide is not an insulator. It's also very flexible. Lots of other options come to mind if you just think about electrical conductivity but they all have issues - far more serious than the lower conductivity of the nickel silver. They are either too expensive (silver, gold), too soft (gold for sure), or the oxides are not conductive (aluminum, copper). Or hard to machine (stainless steel).
I rarely need to do any track cleaning. Once you've gone down the road with abrasive cleaners, you're not stuck, because the scratches will attract and hold dirt, microscopic though they may be. I do part of the 'gleam' proocess - mainly, the burnishing of the railhead with a hardened metal tool. That alone seems to work just fine as the worst I get is some surface dust from the room, if I haven't run trains for a while. Lots of running, and all metal wheels on the cars, keeps the track clean.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
If you have done your layout construction properly, the fact that nickel silver rail is less conductive than brass (or silver) is unimportant. That is because you put supply taps on the nickel silver rail often enough so that the high(er) resistance is not a problem. And you use copper wire of an adequate size to distribute power to those taps.
So the level of resistance of any metal rail you choose to use should be irrelevant.
Ed
rrinker Nickel silver...the oxide is not an insulator.
Nickel silver...the oxide is not an insulator.
I don't think there IS an oxide of nickel silver. I think oxides form from elemental metals, not full alloys. Thus there are copper oxides, zinc oxides, and nickel oxides. And there are not brass oxides or nickel silver oxides.
The brass used in our rail is an alloy of (mostly) copper and zinc.
The nickel silver used in our rail is an alloy of (mostly) copper, nickel and zinc.
The difference, of course, is the nickel. I suspect the presence of the nickel inhibits formation of copper oxide. And perhaps zinc oxide.
Thus brass rail forms copper and/or zinc oxides more readily than nickel silver rail.
Marklin track is made out of some sort of stainless steel. Yes it does stay clean more, but care must be taken when soldering and also the flex-track is more difficult (imho) to bend and make it follow curves (it is more springy).
Forgot to mention that i just gave this as an example, since being 3-rail track, it is of no use to 2-rail DC/DCC users.
I have some shell (ammo) casings from WW2 that are brass. They are on a shelf in the same room as the railroad. There is not one tiny bit of corrosion on any of them. But the brass track that I had would turn green in a few weeks.
Maybe the the rail needs to be made of a better alloy.
The proper alloy of aluminum would work too. Check out the aluminum wheels being used on tractor-trailers these day. They never need polished and they don't corrode. But aluminum does not have much springiness. Once bent, it's bent forever. But again, the proper alloy would probably work.
Aluminum alloy track is already available for garden railways, but aluminum also corrodes, even disintegrates, has a bad conductivity and cannot be soldered.
mlehman...If you have a dirty track problem with N-S rail, then you either quit making it dirty or you figure a better way to clean it. It's not the track material that's the problem, but dirt and crud. If you don't solve the cleaning puzzle (depending on your local environment and other factors) they will still affect performance, even if the rail is gold.
Mike got it right early on.
I clean track, in the traditional sense, only after ballasting or doing scenery work near the tracks, as the dilute white glue used to hold things in place does creep up onto the rails due to the use of "wet" water. Because I usually do trackside scenery along with ballasting, the drying time may be several days - it's pointless to clean the rails until everything has dried completely. I use a mildly abrasive block meant for cleaning contact points in electrical devices.Once the track has been cleaned in that manner, any further cleaning required is done with my shop vac, and that is, at most, once a year. The key to eliminating track cleaning is to eliminate, as much as possible, the source of the dirt which is causing the problem. It is not the oxidation on the rails.My layout is in an unheated and uncooled basement room, well insulated and with finished walls, suspended ceiling, no windows, and a door. The floor, unpainted concrete, is never swept, only vacuumed (much more often than the track or layout).From what I've seen, too many of us are in a rush to run trains, and overlook the environment in which we run them: open joists and flooring overhead, unfinished conrete block walls or open studs, no physical isolation from sources of dirt, carpeted floors, and plenty of non-layout related traffic from other household members. Yeah, we can't all have a dedicated train room, but more attention (and money) needs to be spent on the environment of many layouts.If I had to clean track as often as many here seem to do, I would leave the hobby.
BMMECNYCSeeYou190 Why are we still dealing with 1978 technology in trackage? Why are some people still using 1950s technology to power their trains?
Well, I can only speak for my own experience, but DC offers everything I require: I'm a solo operator, I don't like or want sound (or lighting effects, either), and I regularly run double headers, pushers, etc. using a tethered walkaround type of throttle. If the tether bothered me (it doesn't), I'd get wireless throttles like those used by Sheldon.
BMMECNYCBRAKIE Let's start with my beef. Track is a model too and why does it still look like brass track from the 50s? Even C83 is clunky and toyish looking. Atlas code 100 flex ties are out of scale (too wide). Which is why I'm re-laying it on wood ties.
7j43kIf you have done your layout construction properly, the fact that nickel silver rail is less conductive than brass (or silver) is unimportant. That is because you put supply taps on the nickel silver rail often enough so that the high(er) resistance is not a problem. And you use copper wire of an adequate size to distribute power to those taps....
Ed, until I added a partial second level to my layout, I was operating over 200' of track (not counting passing sidings and industrial tracks) powered through these...
That operation included multiple locomotives (in some cases, more than a dozen) and heavy trains on lots of 2.5% grades. Granted, this is DC operation, which perhaps is less finicky than DCC.
The second level added roughly another 80' of main line (with all the usual passing sidings and industrial tracks) and the trains still ran reliably. However, just to be on the safe side, I did add some heavier feeders while things were accessible enough to do so easily, but there is no bus wire. It's DC, but with no complicated wiring, as I'm the sole operator.
If you have a dedicated room for your layout and you finish it to a standard in which you'd be comfortable living, it's much easier to clean the room than it is to clean the track, and you'll have to do it less often, too.
Wayne
SouthPenn I have some shell (ammo) casings from WW2 that are brass. They are on a shelf in the same room as the railroad. There is not one tiny bit of corrosion on any of them. But the brass track that I had would turn green in a few weeks.
I have found that if I polish brass and NEVER touch it, it stays pretty darn shiny for a very long time (years). And if I handle it, it, uh, doesn't. Human skin oils are pretty aggressive on metal surfaces.
Another thing that can happen is galvanic corrosion. I'm assuming you put power on those brass rails. And you may have also added, accidentally or on purpose, some chemicals to the mix. Something your casings didn't have to face.
First, I want to endorse everything Wayne says about cleanliness. I'll even go a bit further, and suggest sealing a concrete floor. When your shoes slide on an untreated concrete surface, they rub off a little of it.
Anyway:
doctorwayne Ed, until I added a partial second level to my layout, I was operating over 200' of track (not counting passing sidings and industrial tracks) powered through these... That operation included multiple locomotives (in some cases, more than a dozen) and heavy trains on lots of 2.5% grades. Granted, this is DC operation, which perhaps is less finicky than DCC. Wayne
Wayne,
Are you saying that there is only one supply point on the track to supply 200'?
And are you saying that you have run more than a dozen locomotives AT ONCE?
Our club (www.pmrrc.org) uses hand-laid steel rail. Great stuff, nearly indestructible (a lot of the track was laid between 1979 and the early 80s, and I think some sections go back to the '60s), and considering all the miles we run, the maintenance is pretty low; we usually give it a good cleaning once or twice a year. Chief disadvantage is that most of the dirt gets picked up by the steel wheels, which get a pretty good layer of crud on them. We have no high-tech reason for using steel; AFAIK it's what was avaialble when the club built its first layout in the 1950s, and the habit stuck.
It's not that DCC is more finicky, it's that the voltage on the rails in DC directly controls the speed, so if there is a slow and gradual voltage drop, you don't see it and/or automatically compensate by turning the speed control up a bit. I ran an 8x12 double track layout with DCC on one pair of feeders as well, no problems. Hooking up all the rest of the feeder drops didn't change things, either. There's nothing more finickey about DCC, as long as the voltage remains above the specified minimum there should not be any control issue - and it takes a LOT of nickle silver rail and/or a huge load of powered equipment to cause the voltage to drop from the nominal output at the main booster to a level below the NMRA specifications.
At the same time, I had a basic 4x8 oval of Bachmann EZ Track running on DC and the locos noticeably slowed at the furthest point from the power pack. I had to add extra feeders to fix this. Being sectional track, thre were more joints in this 4x8 oval then there were in the 8x12. This is the real cause of issues over long track runs with few feeders.
That 8x12 also ran in a basement with open ceiling joists and unfinished poured concrete walls and floor. Outside of cleanup after painting the rails, I didn't clean the track on that one, either. Just a light brushing to remove loose dust on occasion. No liquids, no abrasives. I still contend that anything that STAYS wet on the rails only makes it worse.
ROBERT PETRICKYes, there is silver in silver solder, but that is a very different animal and not much use in our hobby. It has a higher melting (and flowing) temperature; in the range of 900 degrees to 1350 degrees depending on the composition. It can not be used with a Weller 40 watt iron, a fairly hot flame is needed.
I use silver-bearing solder all the time, in fact almost exclusively around the layout. I have some old irons around, but mostly use a Radio Shack solder station set to 680 degrees.
I use the stuff for two reasons. When building anything out of brass, etc that is solderable, it's easy to see progress, make strong joints or to change something once it's tacked together.
Then there's wiring. Almost anything we're liable to solder has the potential yo snag, be yanked, or otherwise abused, whether under the layout or beneath the sheels of a loco with sound. Silver-bearing solder makes these connection much sturdier and less likely to cause a problem later.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
rrinker It's not that DCC is more finicky, it's that the voltage on the rails in DC directly controls the speed, so if there is a slow and gradual voltage drop, you don't see it and/or automatically compensate by turning the speed control up a bit. I ran an 8x12 double track layout with DCC on one pair of feeders as well, no problems. Hooking up all the rest of the feeder drops didn't change things, either. There's nothing more finickey about DCC, as long as the voltage remains above the specified minimum there should not be any control issue - and it takes a LOT of nickle silver rail and/or a huge load of powered equipment to cause the voltage to drop from the nominal output at the main booster to a level below the NMRA specifications. At the same time, I had a basic 4x8 oval of Bachmann EZ Track running on DC and the locos noticeably slowed at the furthest point from the power pack. I had to add extra feeders to fix this. Being sectional track, thre were more joints in this 4x8 oval then there were in the 8x12. This is the real cause of issues over long track runs with few feeders. That 8x12 also ran in a basement with open ceiling joists and unfinished poured concrete walls and floor. Outside of cleanup after painting the rails, I didn't clean the track on that one, either. Just a light brushing to remove loose dust on occasion. No liquids, no abrasives. I still contend that anything that STAYS wet on the rails only makes it worse. --Randy
Did a quarter trip the DCC circuit breaker prior to adding additional feeders?
mlehman ROBERT PETRICK Yes, there is silver in silver solder, but that is a very different animal and not much use in our hobby. It has a higher melting (and flowing) temperature; in the range of 900 degrees to 1350 degrees depending on the composition. It can not be used with a Weller 40 watt iron, a fairly hot flame is needed. I use silver-bearing solder all the time, in fact almost exclusively around the layout. I have some old irons around, but mostly use a Radio Shack solder station set to 680 degrees. I use the stuff for two reasons. When building anything out of brass, etc that is solderable, it's easy to see progress, make strong joints or to change something once it's tacked together. Then there's wiring. Almost anything we're liable to solder has the potential yo snag, be yanked, or otherwise abused, whether under the layout or beneath the sheels of a loco with sound. Silver-bearing solder makes these connection much sturdier and less likely to cause a problem later.
ROBERT PETRICK Yes, there is silver in silver solder, but that is a very different animal and not much use in our hobby. It has a higher melting (and flowing) temperature; in the range of 900 degrees to 1350 degrees depending on the composition. It can not be used with a Weller 40 watt iron, a fairly hot flame is needed.
Sorry for the confusion.
In the old days I made jewelry for fun and profit (actually, not a whole lot of profit) and was talking about the silver solder I used. That solder contains between 45% (soft) to 80% (hard) silver. The silver-bearing solder you use is about 60% lead, 38% tin, and 2% silver. So, yes, it also contains silver.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
7j43k First, I want to endorse everything Wayne says about cleanliness. I'll even go a bit further, and suggest sealing a concrete floor. When your shoes slide on an untreated concrete surface, they rub off a little of it. Anyway: doctorwayne Ed, until I added a partial second level to my layout, I was operating over 200' of track (not counting passing sidings and industrial tracks) powered through these... That operation included multiple locomotives (in some cases, more than a dozen) and heavy trains on lots of 2.5% grades. Granted, this is DC operation, which perhaps is less finicky than DCC. Wayne Wayne, Are you saying that there is only one supply point on the track to supply 200'? And are you saying that you have run more than a dozen locomotives AT ONCE? Ed
I'm not speaking directly for Wayne, but yes you can feed 200' of track from one feeder and run DC just fine.
As a confirmed DC operator, using 1980's radio throttle technology, I solder all my rail joints within each electrical section, or "block".
Rail joints are the big voltage drop problem, not the rail itself.
No I have never had expansion or contraction issues.......every layout I have ever built had soldered rail joints.
I don't have a 200' section like Wayne, but many of my blocks are 30'-40' long, with just a single feeder, works fine.
My first layout had two indepenent loops of TruScale ready track. Each loop was over 100', they were fed in one spot, with surplus phone wire...........but all the rail joints were soldered.
EZ Track? rail joint every 9", sure there is lots of voltage drop......
Sheldon
Going a bit further on the silver solder theme:
From Oppi Untracht's "Metal Techniques for Craftsmen", "Silver solder is a term used to classify solders in which a major ingredient is silver." The term "silver-bearing" should apply only to solders have only a small amount of silver.
The practical difference is that silver-bearing solders can be used with a soldering iron. You need a torch to work with solver solder, as the common kinds flow at 1325F for "easy", 1390F for "medium" and 1475F for "hard".
Since we have been discussing alloys (brass and nickel silver), the alloy ratio of these solders might be interesting:
easy: 60% silver, 25% copper, 15% zinc
medium: 70% silver, 20% copper, 10% zinc
hard: 76% silver, 22% copper, 3% zinc
Edward Sutorik
doctorwaynend while handlaying will solve the issue of the too-wide ties, are you planning to use tie plates and at least four spikes in every tie? For most of us, model railroading is full of compromises
Union Pacific Standardspiking patterns
https://www.up.com/cs/groups/public/@uprr/@customers/@industrialdevelopment/@operationsspecs/@specifications/documents/up_pdf_nativedocs/pdf_up_std_0453.pdf
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Good idea Mel. I like your fan and filter.
Early on this thread I was going to do a funny and suggest that we create cleanrooms for our train rooms. Comparable to the computer clean rooms of Control Data from the 70s and 80s. We could walk through the transition entryway in our little white suits and gas masks to run our trains. Lol.
I guess it wasn't as funny as I thought.
BMMECNYC SeeYou190 Why are we still dealing with 1978 technology in trackage? Why are some people still using 1950s technology to power their trains?
SeeYou190 Why are we still dealing with 1978 technology in trackage?
Why are some people still using 1950s technology to power their trains?
doctorwayne Well, I can only speak for my own experience, but DC offers everything I require: I'm a solo operator, I don't like or want sound (or lighting effects, either), and I regularly run double headers, pushers, etc. using a tethered walkaround type of throttle. If the tether bothered me (it doesn't), I'd get wireless throttles like those used by Sheldon.
I was pointing out that for most people, nickel-silver rail is good enough. Which is why no-one has bothered to develop anything else.
doctorwayne And while handlaying will solve the issue of the too-wide ties, are you planning to use tie plates and at least four spikes in every tie?
To start 4 spikes every 4th tie. I will go back and slide in these:
http://www.proto87.com/product1904.html
Normally I would just use ME or Atlas code 83 flex track, but I have a bunch of left over atlas code 100 (several hundred feet I would guess) from previous personal layout and former club modules.
A lot of it has a bunch of ballast and liquid nails stuck to the ties. I decided that it would be less time consuming to handlay it. I am using Peco code 100 turnouts (all recycled).
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I'm not speaking directly for Wayne, but yes you can feed 200' of track from one feeder and run DC just fine. As a confirmed DC operator, using 1980's radio throttle technology, I solder all my rail joints within each electrical section, or "block". Rail joints are the big voltage drop problem, not the rail itself.
Nickel silver has a resistance 19 times higher than copper. And Code 83 has 64% of the cross section of #12 wire. So the resistance of a length of Code 83 will be 30 times that of the same length of #12 copper wire.
30 times the resistance!
Neither had I until I attended a Free-mo setup a couple of weeks ago where the temperature hit 114F.
On one of my 6' long modules, 22 degrees with soldered rail joints, the Shinohara Code 83 popped out sideways in a kink with a depth of about 1/8" and a length of about 3".
No one else had a problem. I suspect mine happened because there was no ballast.
Did happen, though.
7j43k ATLANTIC CENTRAL I'm not speaking directly for Wayne, but yes you can feed 200' of track from one feeder and run DC just fine. As a confirmed DC operator, using 1980's radio throttle technology, I solder all my rail joints within each electrical section, or "block". Rail joints are the big voltage drop problem, not the rail itself. Nickel silver has a resistance 19 times higher than copper. And Code 83 has 40% of the cross section of #12 wire. So the resistance of a length of Code 83 will be 47 times that of the same length of #12 copper wire. 47 times the resistance! No I have never had expansion or contraction issues.......every layout I have ever built had soldered rail joints. Neither had I until I attended a Free-mo setup a couple of weeks ago where the temperature hit 114F. On one of my 6' long modules, 22 degrees with soldered rail joints, the Shinohara Code 83 popped out sideways in a kink with a depth of about 1/8" and a length of about 3". No one else had a problem. I suspect mine happened because there was no ballast. Did happen, though. Ed
Nickel silver has a resistance 19 times higher than copper. And Code 83 has 40% of the cross section of #12 wire. So the resistance of a length of Code 83 will be 47 times that of the same length of #12 copper wire.
47 times the resistance!
Well Ed, we don't have loads that require #12 wire.....
And my layout does not get carted around to different places.....
Feeding even three locos with code 83 rail is like feeding a 15 amp outlet with #10 wire....
I use 13.8 volt regulated power supplies with Aristo Train Engineer throttles. My actual output voltage at the Aristo is about 13.6, and I have never read less than 13.5 anywhere on the layout......
The Aristo uses full voltage pulse widith modulation motor control......
Most of my diesels are three and four unit powered lashups, most steam trains are double headed.
My power supplies are 4 amps. Each throttle has its own independent power supply. There is no common rail/ground.
Have built several layouts this way, including wiring a layout for a friend with my same control system.
Works fine.....
Funny, nobody mentioned looks. Nickel silver has a white silvery luster that looks a lot like polished steel. Brass has a yellow luster that doesn't look like steel at all, it looks like brass.
Stainless is too difficult to solder to ever make a popular rail.
Any metal is conductive enough to make a decent track. You cannot rely on rail joiners to conduct electricity from one track piece to another. Over time the rail joiner corrodes internally, where you cannot inspect it or clean it. To provide steady juice you have to run a power bus made of good thick copper wire (I use #14 solid copper house wire) and then run feeders up from the bus to every other piece of track. It is unlikely that the rail joiners on both ends of the piece of track will both open up, odds are one rail joiner will remain conductive. So a piece of track without its own feeder will stay energized, from one end or the other. Anyhow, the copper power bus carries the juice around the layout rather than the rails. An individual three foot rail only has to carry the juice for three feet, and any metal is conductive enough to do that.
Some train set used to come with aluminum rail. Never looked right and you cannot solder to it. We could use rail made of mild steel, it would look right. But it's harder to solder, harder to bend to shape, and it rusts. Silver would make nice rail, solders readily, looks about right. Dunno how it would compare to nickel silver.
David Starr www.newsnorthwoods.blogspot.com
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Well Ed, we don't have loads that require #12 wire..... Sheldon
No body does. The reason for using house wire, #12 or #14 is that it is mechanically rugged. It won't break just cause someone working under the layout bumps into it. You don't have to worry about a nick from the wire stripper weakening the stuff. You can strip short sections to wrap a feeder around the bus wire and solder it and it will stay. And the stuff is easy to come by. Home Despot or Lowes carries it, you can often get used wire pulled out during a home remodeling job for the asking.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I use 13.8 volt regulated power supplies with Aristo Train Engineer throttles. My actual output voltage at the Aristo is about 13.6, and I have never read less than 13.5 anywhere on the layout......
That 13.5 reading is only valid if there was a train running at that location at the same time.
And I picked #12 because so many people use #14, #12, or #10 for their power bus. As opposed to #18, say.
7j43kNickel silver has a resistance 19 times higher than copper. And Code 83 has 40% of the cross section of #12 wire. So the resistance of a length of Code 83 will be 47 times that of the same length of #12 copper wire. 47 times the resistance!
Code 83 rail resistance=.6 ohms (including resistance of multivolt meter leads).
how does this compare to the thin gauge wires connecting the track to the decoder and the decoder to the motor?
i'll guess that the decoder wire gauge is #28, 0.213 ohms/m = 0.0054 ohms/inch. At lease one estimate for nickle silver rail is 0.0014 ohm/inch.
at 1Amp, NS track will drop 0.005V/in and the decoder wire 0.0015V/in. Consider the lengths of decoder wire and the lengths of track between the loco and the nearest feed.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
Wow, Over 50 responses in one day!
I did not expect that kind of activity when I made this post this morning. Thank you for all of the information. There is a lot of good stuff in this thread.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
BMMECNYC 7j43k Nickel silver has a resistance 19 times higher than copper. And Code 83 has 40% of the cross section of #12 wire. So the resistance of a length of Code 83 will be 30 times that of the same length of #12 copper wire. 30 times the resistance! Code 83 rail resistance=.6 ohms (including resistance of multivolt meter leads).
7j43k Nickel silver has a resistance 19 times higher than copper. And Code 83 has 40% of the cross section of #12 wire. So the resistance of a length of Code 83 will be 30 times that of the same length of #12 copper wire. 30 times the resistance!
That would be for a 3' piece. I get .174 ohm per 3'. Which is sorta close.
And #12 copper is 1.93 ohms for 1000 feet.
dstarr Stainless is too difficult to solder to ever make a popular rail. Any metal is conductive enough to make a decent track. You cannot rely on rail joiners to conduct electricity from one track piece to another. Over time the rail joiner corrodes internally, where you cannot inspect it or clean it.
Any metal is conductive enough to make a decent track. You cannot rely on rail joiners to conduct electricity from one track piece to another. Over time the rail joiner corrodes internally, where you cannot inspect it or clean it.
I agree with these two statements 100%.
We're kind of in a hypothetical Dreamland thinking a manufacturer of track would come up with a stainless rail anyway. M E can't even offer another Choice from a number 6 turnout, let's face the facts.
If a company did introduce stainless steel rail and also offered stainless steel track connectors with wire feeds, they might have something there.
The rails could be cut with a Dremel industrial diamond wheel