SeeYou190 OK, we know that nickel silver track still needs to be cleaned, just see all the threads about this. The conductive oxide promise did not formulate well.
All track no mater what material will need to be cleaned if you want to have electrical conductivity. Dust is not very conductive (its made of dead skin cells, animal dander, hair particles, etc).
SeeYou190 Why do we not have a better, and more expensive, option to choose from? There must be something better to make model rail from. Some sort of stainless steel? Some semi-precious alloy?
It has to be soft enough to cut with standard tools, otherwise you will need to purchase more expensive tools to cut your rail.
Track fiddlerSo my point is. Would stainless steel rail and stainless steel track joiners be a better solution.
No, see above and below.
Track fiddlerEspecially in the size of our little tinsel tail rails I don't think it would be that expensive.
Manufacturers would likely have to re-tool to make Stainless rail. That is going to be added to the cost of your rail. It is harder than N-S. Tooling will wear out faster. Added to the cost of the rail.
Track fiddlerGuess what, the stuff came off easily I never had a problem with that. Maybe black gunk would too.
Have you tried wiping with Isopropyl alcohol? CMX tank car cleaner (albeit expensive) works pretty well (my club uses one on our layout at shows) typically we run it once per day. Track gets dirty at shows very quickly. The black gunk wipes off with a paper towel wetted with Isopropyl alcohol (locomotive wheels must be cleaned as well).
Just dont let the cleaning car sit still with the drip running.....causes um.. ballast "issues".
Lol. Chuckle Chuckles.
Did someone get up on the wrong side of the couch this morning?
Life's a little short, I'm going to go back with Ed's code 83 Platinum.
Seems to be a safer Zone.
Edit. Don't sweat the small stuff.
Track fidler
Stainless steel has been popular with the garden railroad crowd. I have about 20% of my outdoor railroad using Aristo-Craft Stainless. All electrical connections are mechanical. Several manufacturers make various clamping joiners for both rail joints and electrical feeders. Of course, the web of the rail can be drilled and tapped but that gets tiresome, the clamps are a better way to go.
In the outdoor environment the stainless holds up well but many electrical feeders are necessary and a chemical compound helps keep the connections free of contamination.
http://grw.trains.com/beginners/getting-started/2009/06/choosing-rail-for-the-garden-railroad
Aluminum is frequently used by the live-steam/battery-on-board folks.
Regards, Ed
All this talk about a replacement for nickel-silver track is just a solution running around trying to find a problem.
BMMECNYC SeeYou190 OK, we know that nickel silver track still needs to be cleaned, just see all the threads about this. The conductive oxide promise did not formulate well. All track no mater what material will need to be cleaned if you want to have electrical conductivity. Dust is not very conductive (its made of dead skin cells, animal dander, hair particles, etc). SeeYou190 Why do we not have a better, and more expensive, option to choose from? There must be something better to make model rail from. Some sort of stainless steel? Some semi-precious alloy? It has to be soft enough to cut with standard tools, otherwise you will need to purchase more expensive tools to cut your rail. Track fiddler So my point is. Would stainless steel rail and stainless steel track joiners be a better solution. No, see above and below. Track fiddler Especially in the size of our little tinsel tail rails I don't think it would be that expensive. Manufacturers would likely have to re-tool to make Stainless rail. That is going to be added to the cost of your rail. It is harder than N-S. Tooling will wear out faster. Added to the cost of the rail. Track fiddler Guess what, the stuff came off easily I never had a problem with that. Maybe black gunk would too. Have you tried wiping with Isopropyl alcohol? CMX tank car cleaner (albeit expensive) works pretty well (my club uses one on our layout at shows) typically we run it once per day. Track gets dirty at shows very quickly. The black gunk wipes off with a paper towel wetted with Isopropyl alcohol (locomotive wheels must be cleaned as well). Just dont let the cleaning car sit still with the drip running.....causes um.. ballast "issues".
Track fiddler So my point is. Would stainless steel rail and stainless steel track joiners be a better solution.
Track fiddler Especially in the size of our little tinsel tail rails I don't think it would be that expensive.
Track fiddler Guess what, the stuff came off easily I never had a problem with that. Maybe black gunk would too.
Tap me on the shoulder once, we'll have a discussion.
Smack me three times..... Not so much.
SeeYou190Why do we not have a better, and more expensive, option to choose from? There must be something better to make model rail from. Some sort of stainless steel? Some semi-precious alloy?
Because nickel silver works just fine and there would be a very small market for the more expensive track.
Would any other material really be any better?
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Track fiddler...The issue a lot of modelers on this forum have stated is the corrosion, oxidation whatever you want to call it causes lack of continuity in the track connectors joining the rails. I guess this can make sense especially after you ballast and the water and glue seeps into the track joiners and Festers overtime....
I agree that the glue used in ballasting can cause electrical problems if it gets into the rail joiners, but that has nothing to do with oxidation - soldering all rail joints prevents that issue.And, in my opinion, normal oxidation on nickel-silver rails has nothing to do with poor electrical contact either - if it did, I would still be manually cleaning track on a regular basis, and I don't.
Wayne
Track fiddler BMMECNYC SeeYou190 OK, we know that nickel silver track still needs to be cleaned, just see all the threads about this. The conductive oxide promise did not formulate well. All track no mater what material will need to be cleaned if you want to have electrical conductivity. Dust is not very conductive (its made of dead skin cells, animal dander, hair particles, etc). SeeYou190 Why do we not have a better, and more expensive, option to choose from? There must be something better to make model rail from. Some sort of stainless steel? Some semi-precious alloy? It has to be soft enough to cut with standard tools, otherwise you will need to purchase more expensive tools to cut your rail. Track fiddler So my point is. Would stainless steel rail and stainless steel track joiners be a better solution. No, see above and below. Track fiddler Especially in the size of our little tinsel tail rails I don't think it would be that expensive. Manufacturers would likely have to re-tool to make Stainless rail. That is going to be added to the cost of your rail. It is harder than N-S. Tooling will wear out faster. Added to the cost of the rail. Track fiddler Have you tried wiping with Isopropyl alcohol? CMX tank car cleaner (albeit expensive) works pretty well (my club uses one on our layout at shows) typically we run it once per day. Track gets dirty at shows very quickly. The black gunk wipes off with a paper towel wetted with Isopropyl alcohol (locomotive wheels must be cleaned as well). Just dont let the cleaning car sit still with the drip running.....causes um.. ballast "issues". Tap me on the shoulder once, we'll have a discussion. Smack me three times..... Not so much.
BMMECNYC SeeYou190 OK, we know that nickel silver track still needs to be cleaned, just see all the threads about this. The conductive oxide promise did not formulate well. All track no mater what material will need to be cleaned if you want to have electrical conductivity. Dust is not very conductive (its made of dead skin cells, animal dander, hair particles, etc). SeeYou190 Why do we not have a better, and more expensive, option to choose from? There must be something better to make model rail from. Some sort of stainless steel? Some semi-precious alloy? It has to be soft enough to cut with standard tools, otherwise you will need to purchase more expensive tools to cut your rail. Track fiddler So my point is. Would stainless steel rail and stainless steel track joiners be a better solution. No, see above and below. Track fiddler Especially in the size of our little tinsel tail rails I don't think it would be that expensive. Manufacturers would likely have to re-tool to make Stainless rail. That is going to be added to the cost of your rail. It is harder than N-S. Tooling will wear out faster. Added to the cost of the rail. Track fiddler Have you tried wiping with Isopropyl alcohol? CMX tank car cleaner (albeit expensive) works pretty well (my club uses one on our layout at shows) typically we run it once per day. Track gets dirty at shows very quickly. The black gunk wipes off with a paper towel wetted with Isopropyl alcohol (locomotive wheels must be cleaned as well). Just dont let the cleaning car sit still with the drip running.....causes um.. ballast "issues".
Track fiddler
[Tap]...Slow down, Track Layer. No one is smacking your around. It's called logic and reasoning. If you want to discuss reasons why other materials would be "better" than the current offerings then you need to be willing to hear from those who have opposing views from your own.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Why use a material other than Nickel Silver for rail? NS has the electrical and mechanical properties which make it an ideal material for rails. Since the majority of the alloy is copper (55%Cu, 27%Zn, 18%Ni is typical), it has good electrical properties and is soft enough to form it easily. It also solders easily and wears well. Since it is considered an Electronic Grade alloy, it is a good choice.
Silver would be the best, but it would be expensive. Sure, you could silver plate the rail, but it wouldn't be that much of an improvement.
Aluminium is soft enough, but you would require more material to equal copper, so your rails would have to get bigger to compensate. It is also reactive, so you would be cleaning rails constantly to remove the hard oxide that forms. It is also troublesome to solder to and make reliable connections.
Steel, well, it corrodes. Stainless steel is hard to form, and has the same issues, as well as needed tools suited to cut it.
Brass? As we know, it oxidizes, and the oxide is non-conductive. Sure, you could silver plate it, or just silver the rail head yourself. NS is also a copper alloy, with the advantage of a conductive oxide forming on the rail. The disadvantages of NS outweigh those of brass.
Unless someone comes up with a new alloy for rails which has all the advantages of brass and NS with none of the disadvantages, it looks like NS is here to stay.
tstage Track fiddler BMMECNYC Tap me on the shoulder once, we'll have a discussion. Smack me three times..... Not so much. [Tap]...Slow down, Track Layer. No one is smacking your around. It's called logic and reasoning. If you want to discuss reasons why other materials would be "better" than the current offerings then you need to be willing to hear from those who have opposing views from your own. Tom
Track fiddler BMMECNYC Tap me on the shoulder once, we'll have a discussion. Smack me three times..... Not so much.
BMMECNYC
I getcha Tom. I may have been a little off last night. It happens. No hard feelings.
I actually think nickel silver is more than adequate for our track.
The only reason I brought up stainless steel rail and stainless steel joiners there's so many times through the years I've heard forum members suggesting soldering your rail joints. The two reasons being not to get Kinks on your curves and to assure electrical continuity.
I wasn't very good at soldering rail when I was young I always seemed to melt the ties.
At the price of track these days this makes me nervous and I'm probably trying to find any way out of it any way I can.
Track fiddler tstage Track fiddler BMMECNYC Tap me on the shoulder once, we'll have a discussion. Smack me three times..... Not so much. [Tap]...Slow down, Track Layer. No one is smacking your around. It's called logic and reasoning. If you want to discuss reasons why other materials would be "better" than the current offerings then you need to be willing to hear from those who have opposing views from your own. Tom I getcha Tom. I may have been a little off last night. It happens. No hard feelings. I actually think nickel silver is more than adequate for our track. The only reason I brought up stainless steel rail and stainless steel joiners there's so many times through the years I've heard forum members suggesting soldering your rail joints. The two reasons being not to get Kinks on your curves and to assure electrical continuity. I wasn't very good at soldering rail when I was young I always seemed to melt the ties. At the price of track these days this makes me nervous and I'm probably trying to find any way out of it any way I can.
I can't imagine not soldering rail joints..........been doing it since age 13.........
Sheldon
Track fiddler I wasn't very good at soldering rail when I was young I always seemed to melt the ties. At the price of track these days this makes me nervous and I'm probably trying to find any way out of it any way I can.
The technical term is heat sink. Place a heavy washer or other similar lump of metal on the rails just ahead and just behind the joint to be soldered. The sink will absorb the heat before the ties melt. In a pinch a couple of quarters would do.
Robert
LINK to SNSR Blog
ROBERT PETRICK Track fiddler I wasn't very good at soldering rail when I was young I always seemed to melt the ties. At the price of track these days this makes me nervous and I'm probably trying to find any way out of it any way I can. The technical term is heat sink. Place a heavy washer or other similar lump of metal on the rails just ahead and just behind the joint to be soldered. The sink will absorb the heat before the ties melt. In a pinch a couple of quarters would do. Robert
I use 4” locking pliers/vice grips as heat sinks. The 4” vice grips are one of my best and most used tools for my hobbies. They work great for heat sinking rails.
https://www.amazon.com/Curved-Locking-Pliers-Nickel-Finish/dp/B005CKN2YY
[/quote]
If soldering nickle silver is not your deal then you may want to read thishttp://www.wikihow.com/Solder-Stainless-Steel
Even wood clamps with the plastic covers removed would work. Also, those folding handle clips that are meant to hold paper sheets together...work well. I have even used the points and frog filing block that handlaidtrack sells. They are fairly substantial blocks of milled steel with flat sides that sit nicely on the rails.
I've been soldering, electroncis at least, since long before I was 13. I've only relatively recently (in the past 12 years or so) soldered track - the only other layout I built as an adult before these last two was a small shelf and I just used sectional track on it.
I still don't use a heat sink of any sort, nor have I melted ties, at least not from the soldering process (whacking the track with the tip of the iron, however...). I don;t use pre-weathered track, but if you do, the area to be soldered must be cleaned, the blackening used to weather the rail inhibits solder. My trick, if you can call it that? First, a temperature controlled soldering station. Not expensive (mine as $50) and I use it for everything, not just soldering track. Second, CLEAN TIP - this is the #1 thing you can do to improve soldering. The temperature controlled station, as long as you don't just crank it up to maximum, helps keep the tip clean from joint to joint, but properly cleaning and tinning the tip will prevent a lot of melting and ruined parts. Third, if we're talking about track to track joints and not soldering a wire to the rail, I put a little paste flux (I use paste ove rliquid - mine is a water based product and they offer it in liquid, gel, and paste - if I want liquid I can dilute the paste with distilled water) inside the joiner before slipping it on the first rail, and then slide the second rail in. You shouldn't be right on top of a tie at this point as you need to remove a tie or two from each piece of flex to get the joiner on (with Atlas track anyway). I apply the iron to the inside along the joiner/rail, and the solder to the outside. The solder will wick in under the joiner but not up into the flange area. With a clean iron and a little flux, this should take no more than a couple of seconds of applying the heat, and the ties won't melt. Probably longer to read the previous sentence than actually carry old the soldering operation. Practice on some scraps, you will quickly get the hang of it and not melt anything.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
It's been noted twice in recent posts in this topic (perhaps more) that nickel silver is the ideal choice of metal for our purposes.
I totally agree with that.
But there have been some pretty, um, strange assertions also. Like oxides of nickel silver are conductive (something that goes back a long ways).
When I proposed platinum rail, it was as a joke. But. It was also a true answer to a question.
There have also been some interesting proposals. Like Track fiddler's stainless proposal. The stainless rail joiners MIGHT be a good idea. Worth considering, I suppose. Except that you should never (well, hardly ever) use rail joiners to conduct electricity. They should be viewed as mechanical alignment devices (MAD's, for you bureaucrats). Soldered rail joiners are the exception.
Ed
Here's the answer: Rearden Metal!
Admittedly, this is a test for forum participants who know what it is before googling it!
Oops, the color would be an issue.
who shrugged
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
gregc who shrugged
Good one, Greg. Obviously the ultimate irony as this string has referenced track suppliers . . .
7j43kThe stainless rail joiners MIGHT be a good idea.
With N-S track or Stainless track? You dont want two dissimilar metals in contact in an electrolyitic solution... (the water you get in them when you ballast, moisture in the air). The electricity running through the rails might prevent the galvanic corrosion (Im remembering reading something about the Iowa class battleships having a galvanic corrosion prevention system that uses electricity).
Track fiddlerI wasn't very good at soldering rail when I was young I always seemed to melt the ties. At the price of track these days this makes me nervous and I'm probably trying to find any way out of it any way I can.
I wasnt good at soldering feeders until someone showed me how. Also dont use a Weller soldering gun (I think I was using the 100W/140W version) to do the soldering. A 35W-45W soldering Iron is adequate for most HO scale work.
The soldering gun melts ties in about 8 sec.
BMMECNYC 7j43k The stainless rail joiners MIGHT be a good idea. With N-S track or Stainless track? You dont want two dissimilar metals in contact in an electrolyitic solution... (the water you get in them when you ballast, moisture in the air). The electricity running through the rails might prevent the galvanic corrosion (Im remembering reading something about the Iowa class battleships having a galvanic corrosion prevention system that uses electricity).
7j43k The stainless rail joiners MIGHT be a good idea.
Actually, the electricity running through the rails might CAUSE corrosion.
But, in my experience, stainless steel is pretty non-reactive. So I think stainless rail joiners on nickel silver would probably work out. Note the word "probably". But I'll never know, because:
I don't use rail joiners to conduct electricity. So I'm not feeling threatened by what might go wrong if I did. 'Cause I don't.
I am quite happy using soldered nickel silver rail joiners on nickel silver rails.
I also use non-soldered joiners when I want a slip joint, thermal or otherwise. But then, I don't use that joint to conduct electricity. I have feeders to both adjacent rails.
PS: I see absolutely no reason to bother with dead-rail in HO scale.
Good Plumbing day gone bad. A shark bite coupling we installed on the water maine we moved this morning started hissing and pissing all over the basement floor at a quarter to 5 when I was packing up and ready to leave. ........Homeowner came home at the same time.
Stress!!!
It's a good thing I had two more couplers in the truck and the even more of a better thing that it happened then.
Much better than a phone call at 2 in the morning.
On a better note I was so pleased when I got home and saw all the support. Even after I was a little off last night you guys come and help me out. Nice!
Seeing all the posts pouring in with advice I was looking for really made me feel good after a Troublesome day.
Much appreciated. I'm going to check this all out after dinner.
I may be able to get rid of my soldering phobia. After all.
Thanks again
I HATE thoose Shark Bites things. Never in my house! I hate plumbing so as it is. GF's nephew hooked up shutoff valves for my washer (yeah - the original owners did not have any shutoff there! If the hose were to blow, I would have to run to the opposite end of the house and shut off the water to the whole house!). Serious mess, one he just screwed the valve on to the existing thread, no issues. The other he put a shark bit on to adapt to a threaded piece to screw the valve to. Well, from day 1 it leaked. It stopped dripping if all tension was taken off the hose. I finally got fed up and got a plumbing torch (heck I'm pretty good at soldering everything else...) and a soldered coupler and threaded adapter (luckily everything he got came in paks of 2 so i was able to take the existing things with me and match up the right sizes - usually I either get a couple different things or else make repeat trips to get the right size). Naturally had to shut off the whole house because I was removing the valve. Getting the shark bite off was a real pain, without their special tool. I hacked the heck out of it until it finally came off. Problem 1, he never cleaned up the exposed pipe, it was almost black. Cleaned it all up nice and shiny with sandpaper, applied plumbing flux, stuck the new part on, and lit up my torch. It ain't pretty but no drips when I turned it back on. Considering there was no way to get the torch on about 1/3 of the way around, I'd say it went pretty well. Just like I won't use suitcase or other crimp-only connectors for electrical wiring - no shark bites on the pipes, either. Solder only.
So yes, practice soldering, it's worth the effort to get good at it. Just gotta have the right tool for the job. And things need to be clean to join well. Just don't try to use the plumbing torch on model railroad track. Or the plumbing solder - it's usually acid core and the acid will act like an electrolyte in a soldered electrical joint and will corrode the metal at the joint when electricity flows through it.
BMMECNYC Also dont use a Weller soldering gun (I think I was using the 100W/140W version) to do the soldering. A 35W-45W soldering Iron is adequate for most HO scale work. The soldering gun melts ties in about 8 sec.
I use the 100/140 watt Weller gun all the time for soldering rail joints and wire to rails. I always clean the rail first with a wire brush in motor tool. Then clean and tin the tip of the soldering gun. Takes much less than 8 seconds to solder joint or wire. I have never melted the ties.
I think there are many ways to do this - use the one that works for you.
Paul
Interesting story Randy. I can agree150%.
We were working in Uptown Minneapolis where all the slumlords are.
They do pay so we work for them.
They want to pack more tenants into the building to turn a bigger buck so they pay to make it so.
This was a three-story unit. You have to open up all the valves in the whole building and the water will never stop dripping in the basement all day long. You can't solder a pipe with dripping water. Thats why we use shark bites.
Actually shark bites have never failed me. My partner brought some off brand ones and we had a defective one.
Good talking to you again.
And thanks for your advice as it was well recognized.
Soldering track seems much more different to me than soldering plumbing pipes. Neither one is easy. I think it depends on what you're used to doing and how you know how to do it.
Take care
Edit. As soon as I get a break from my work I am going to practice soldering rail joiners using the Info you all shared.
Thank you
rrinker I HATE thoose Shark Bites things. Never in my house! I hate plumbing so as it is. GF's nephew hooked up shutoff valves for my washer (yeah - the original owners did not have any shutoff there! If the hose were to blow, I would have to run to the opposite end of the house and shut off the water to the whole house!). Serious mess, one he just screwed the valve on to the existing thread, no issues. The other he put a shark bit on to adapt to a threaded piece to screw the valve to. Well, from day 1 it leaked. It stopped dripping if all tension was taken off the hose. I finally got fed up and got a plumbing torch (heck I'm pretty good at soldering everything else...) and a soldered coupler and threaded adapter (luckily everything he got came in paks of 2 so i was able to take the existing things with me and match up the right sizes - usually I either get a couple different things or else make repeat trips to get the right size). Naturally had to shut off the whole house because I was removing the valve. Getting the shark bite off was a real pain, without their special tool. I hacked the heck out of it until it finally came off. Problem 1, he never cleaned up the exposed pipe, it was almost black. Cleaned it all up nice and shiny with sandpaper, applied plumbing flux, stuck the new part on, and lit up my torch. It ain't pretty but no drips when I turned it back on. Considering there was no way to get the torch on about 1/3 of the way around, I'd say it went pretty well. Just like I won't use suitcase or other crimp-only connectors for electrical wiring - no shark bites on the pipes, either. Solder only. So yes, practice soldering, it's worth the effort to get good at it. Just gotta have the right tool for the job. And things need to be clean to join well. Just don't try to use the plumbing torch on model railroad track. Or the plumbing solder - it's usually acid core and the acid will act like an electrolyte in a soldered electrical joint and will corrode the metal at the joint when electricity flows through it. --Randy
Well, given a choice I will take CPVC supply piping over copper any day. Totally non reactive, easy, inexpensive.
Been sweating copper plumbing since my teens, but now only when we have to.
Shark bites, use them all the time. No failures when properly installed, best way to join copper to CPVC or PEX. Use them on PEX for hydronic heating systems all the time. Beats the old compression PEX fittings any day.
But, shark bites should not have been used as an adapter to a hose bib valve as you described, that was a no-no.
Washing machines should have a proper valve box, or the valves themselves should be securely mounted, either directly to a wood block on the wall, or soldered to a securely mounted copper line.
Don't blame the product because someone used it incorrectly.......
Properly and neatly sweating copper pipe is actually done by heating the joint, no need to move the torch around the pipe, then removing the flame and flowing the solder into the joint until it just starts to drip/flood.
Funny thing.
The slumlords always pay their bills.
Or, so it's my experience.
AttuvianHere's the answer: Rearden Metal! Admittedly, this is a test for forum participants who know what it is before googling it!
Was I the only one who thought Dagny Taggart sounded like the perfect female companion?
I am not aware of any tests performed related to the electrical conductivity of Reardon Metal. Was it ever used to manufacture wires? I know it was used in rails and bridges. Would a boxcar made of Reardon Metal need to be painted?
-Kevin
Living the dream.