I heard a few rumblings that Walthers is done with steam. One.that says they even sold off the line.
That would be a shame because that leaves only bachmann and bli for a steam selection of non common steam (other than another big boy, challenger, FEF, or Allegheny)
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Well, Rapido is just getting into it. I imagine much of the Proto 2000 tooling that Walthers acquired from the purchase of Life-Like is becoming worn out. Maybe as a business decision Walthers is choosing not to fund any future projects.
They have cancelled some of their recent passenger offerings, too.
Regards, Ed
I wasn't aware that Walthers ever did much, if anything, with steam.
When they purchased Life Like, that included the Proto Heritage line of steamers, but they did nothing with it.
I always considered Walthers as a diesel locomotive manufacturer.
Rich
Alton Junction
Probably supply and demand.
I model modern and can tell you that any locomotive with working fore and aft ditchlights, or anything with conspicuity stripes, or rolling stock with the "TTX" herald sells out quickly and at a premium.
Perhaps they recognize an underserved market and will be concentrating on more contemporary products.
- Douglas
If Walthers has sold the Proto 2000 Heritage Steam line, I hope someone picks it up and runs with it. I have four P2K Heritage Steam locos that I operate on my layout along with an assortment of Broadway Limited. As far as plastic, no other line can compare with the accuracy and attention to fine detail as P2K Heritage. My P2K NKP Berkshire is one of my favorites.
One ray of hope: If they "sold off the line", then maybe it will be reintroduced under some other name.
Tom
Well, I certainly hope someone continues to produce steam. I mean what would we all do without a continuous outpouring of Pig Boys and USRA's?
Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works
Where do tjese rumors come from? Or is this like the 'False News' in the political arena...
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
There's hundreds of locomotive designs to choose from, I have yet to see any CGW or L&N Steam.
Why Walthers keeps limiting themselves to only the biggest roads is beyond me.
jrbernier Where do tjese rumors come from? Or is this like the 'False News' in the political arena...
ATSFGuy Why Walthers keeps limiting themselves to only the biggest roads is beyond me.
The Y-3's were awesome engines in every way. My USRA 0-6-0 was the best steamer I had until my recent Roco S-160 arrived. The P2K Berk is pretty nice but I don't like the super thin tires on all drivers. It just offends my senses to not have tires.
As much as I get tired of seeing USRA's and Pig Boys coming from every manufacturer the fact is they sell and that's what this is really all about. Why does BLI have a steady stream of Belpaire fireboxes coming out? THEY SELL! I would love to see a Virginian MB or PA (NO...not a diesel) or a Ma&Pa Heavy 2-8-0 or a Norfolk Southern F-1 2-8-4 but how many do you think they could sell compared to ANOTHER USRA Light Mike? Not enough to pay the costs unfortunately. Same with all those F and E units. How about a T-6?
We're so fortunate to have such great stuff that complaining seems petty to me.
ATSFGuy I have yet to see any CGW or L&N Steam.
I have yet to see any CGW or L&N Steam.
I am a first generation diesel guy myself, CGW was deiselized 1949, one of the first. Still I would love to get a 2-10-4 or a 2-8-2 in CGW, I do not believe it will happen tho.
Mike
I have not heard that rumor. It seems every couple of years they reissue the 0-8-0. Perhaps they are about due. But if there is something to the rumor, my hunch is that Walthers MIGHT be a bit fatigued with the high maintenance/high repair rates with steam. As has been noted elsewhere on these forums, they do not have or stock spare parts, so when warranty repairs are needed they have to go to the shelves and raid an otherwise saleable engine for needed parts. That is true of their rolling stock and structures as well which is why we local Milwaukee area kitbashers go to Walthers often because the raided boxes end up on their "as is" bookcases.
Dave Nelson
Well, "rumor or false news", a search of Walther's web site under HO will find NO Proto steam offered. Over 1000 listings for other companies, but zero for "Walthers". Draw you own conclusions.
Although I diesels I pre-ordered the USRA 0-8-0 NYC switcher. Later on Walthers cancelled the whole thing due to. Not enough people were interested. This was in N during the same time as the HO version.
I would like to run some steam but not a lot of selections. When you do want to buy one they're all sold out.
Amtrak America, 1971-Present.
oldline1We're so fortunate to have such great stuff that complaining seems petty to me.
There are many great roads of the past that just aren't offered in great quantity, great detail and quality that LL used to offer. Roads like: SP, Southern, Seaboard, C&O, C&S, CB&Q, Virginian just to name a few. I miss the unique models and quality the like of the 2-10-2, the Y3, and the 0-8-0/0-6-0. Unfortunately no one really offers a lot of "small" steam for these older railways.
Doughless Probably supply and demand. I model modern and can tell you that any locomotive with working fore and aft ditchlights, or anything with conspicuity stripes, or rolling stock with the "TTX" herald sells out quickly and at a premium. Perhaps they recognize an underserved market and will be concentrating on more contemporary products.
No doubt that "current" railroading is a popular market. But countless surveys continue to show the transistion era to be the most modeled. A recent survey by the NMRA region is my area gave transistion era modeling a 60% ranking with all other eras sharing the remaining 40%.
As for Walthers and the Proto steam line, they did a little when they first bought the Proto line, they did the back dated Y3, and several runs of the other items, and the 2-10-2 Heavy.
But clearly there has been no real action recently. As for tooling wearing out? maybe, maybe not. Not that hard or expensive to retool all or part these days after the primary engineering is done.
I think the real problem is money, the exchange rate, rising costs in China, soft market for these products here, unwillingness or inability to tie up money in inventory, and the changing face of this hobby.
Before the 1980's, nobody ever sold model trains for more than 20% below retail and they considered inventory like a savings account. Most modelers were the "serious" type, and gradually accumulated what they wanted and needed for their layouts.
But by the 90's we had a new breed as well, collectors/casual modelers, willing to buy more expensive RTR, less concerned about kits, or building whole trains or believeable rosters and more conserned about collecting their favorite famous locos (at big prices but with big discounts) and building layouts simply as a display backdrop to run them on.
This has changed the market, and changed the money dynamic of being a model train manufacturer.
These comments are not "the hobby is dieing", BUT, the hobby has changed and it has changed how manufacturers view their investment in product.
And, I do suspect that some new entrants into the hobby who may have become "serious" modelers, are frustrated with "preorder availability" and this has effected the depth or degree of involement they have in the hobby.
I have said before, and will say again, if I was getting into this hobby right now - I would not.
The difficulty of obtaining related products to build a layout with continuity today would scare me away - especially because I'm not one who is real comfortable buying stuff "used".
Again, happy I have most of what I want.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Doughless Probably supply and demand. I model modern and can tell you that any locomotive with working fore and aft ditchlights, or anything with conspicuity stripes, or rolling stock with the "TTX" herald sells out quickly and at a premium. Perhaps they recognize an underserved market and will be concentrating on more contemporary products. No doubt that "current" railroading is a popular market. But countless surveys continue to show the transistion era to be the most modeled. A recent survey by the NMRA region is my area gave transistion era modeling a 60% ranking with all other eras sharing the remaining 40%. As for Walthers and the Proto steam line, they did a little when they first bought the Proto line, they did the back dated Y3, and several runs of the other items, and the 2-10-2 Heavy. But clearly there has been no real action recently. As for tooling wearing out? maybe, maybe not. Not that hard or expensive to retool all or part these days after the primary engineering is done. I think the real problem is money, the exchange rate, rising costs in China, soft market for these products here, unwillingness or inability to tie up money in inventory, and the changing face of this hobby. Before the 1980's, nobody ever sold model trains for more than 20% below retail and they considered inventory like a savings account. Most modelers were the "serious" type, and gradually accumulated what they wanted and needed for their layouts. But by the 90's we had a new breed as well, collectors/casual modelers, willing to buy more expensive RTR, less concerned about kits, or building whole trains or believeable rosters and more conserned about collecting their favorite famous locos (at big prices but with big discounts) and building layouts simply as a display backdrop to run them on. This has changed the market, and changed the money dynamic of being a model train manufacturer. These comments are not "the hobby is dieing", BUT, the hobby has changed and it has changed how manufacturers view their investment in product. And, I do suspect that some new entrants into the hobby who may have become "serious" modelers, are frustrated with "preorder availability" and this has effected the depth or degree of involement they have in the hobby. I have said before, and will say again, if I was getting into this hobby right now - I would not. The difficulty of obtaining related products to build a layout with continuity today would scare me away - especially because I'm not one who is real comfortable buying stuff "used". Again, happy I have most of what I want. Sheldon
I can't speak for the hobby in total, or who or what is more popular than others, but I will say that its my perception that there is a shortage of more modern products relative to demand.
I'm sure that companies want to serve as many markets as they can, but companies can't build everything at the same time, so steam may be taking a longer hiatus at Walthers these days.
Again, when an Athearn hi cube boxcar "TTX" routinely sells for 50 to 60 dollars, as does a rather generically detailed Atlas Trainman bulkead flat; or, when the long in the tooth tooled Athearn 62 foot tank care painted in BNSF swoosh sheme with conspicuity stripes smokes all other painted variations, I simply assume that there is not enough supply for the demand those cars generate.
Also, Atlas imports the 53 foot Evans boxcar. The repaint and patched HHPX version with conspicuity stripes fetches 25 bucks NIB on the internet auction market, and they don't last long. Even more traditional popular roadnames like UP and BN only get about 15 bucks.
Kaolin tank cars NIB (I live in Georgia now so I'm interested) in the modern Dupont or ACFX scheme go for twice the price as the older names seen more in the 80s...yes, I'm calling the 80s old. Same for corn syrup tank cars.
Maybe these are one off examples, but given the abundance of steam locomotives on the market, maybe Walthers has taken notice and has decided to focus some resources on pursuing what some might think of as niches.
As far as the hobby dying, likely not, but some types of models may die off and get replaced by others as time passes and resources stay finite.
Well my Walthers Proto heavy 2-10-2 had very cheap valve gear that buckled too easily at less than 45 minutes run time when a screw backed out. Selling dealer repaired but it was no good and didnt work properly. Walthers did replace with a new one which I sold immediately. I did not trust that model enough to try the second one. I really wanted the C&S engine and was very disappointed, and it was not running very fast at all when the valve gear buckled...I just couldnt tell what had happened...till it was too late...Lost $200 dumping the replacement because they were hard to sell. Come to think of it, most brass models held their value much much better than that for me.
Brass fans tell me I am much better off with the more costly brass steamers. The newer ones are very good though also costly but I get what I pay for.
Too bad if it's true, my Proto 0-8-0 is one of the best running steamers I have ever seen.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
I've have three of the Proto 2000 USRA 0-8-0s and they all ran beautifully right out of the box. Other than the 0-6-0, I didn't find any other Proto steamers I was interested in.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
PRR8259 Well my Walthers Proto heavy 2-10-2 had very cheap valve gear that buckled too easily at less than 45 minutes run time when a screw backed out. Selling dealer repaired but it was no good and didnt work properly. Walthers did replace with a new one which I sold immediately. I did not trust that model enough to try the second one. I really wanted the C&S engine and was very disappointed, and it was not running very fast at all when the valve gear buckled...I just couldnt tell what had happened...till it was too late...Lost $200 dumping the replacement because they were hard to sell. Come to think of it, most brass models held their value much much better than that for me. Brass fans tell me I am much better off with the more costly brass steamers. The newer ones are very good though also costly but I get what I pay for.
John, do you mean to imply you have never had a problem with a brass loco?
My two Proto 2-8-8-2's, two 0-8-0's are without question great looking and great running.
Why would you not give a replacement product another chance? Do you take that position in real life? Like with automobiles?
I don't have a Proto 2-10-2, can't comment directly, but if it is anything like the 2-8-8-2 and the 0-8-0, I'm sure I would be happy.
Well, John, you seem to be the lone unhappy Proto steam customer......
I have 30 Bachmann steamers, Bachmann replaced a few duds, the replacements were all perfect..........
And my two brass locos now have plastic tenders......from Bachmann, but then again none of my locos are stock out of the box......
And I've never sold any, so I don't care about holding value. Not that there is likely a big market for 2-8-8-2's, converted to 2-8-8-0's and lettered ATLANTIC CENTRAL. I doubt my PFM Pacific with its Bachmann tender has much resale value either.
ATSFGuy There's hundreds of locomotive designs to choose from, I have yet to see any CGW or L&N Steam.
BLI's T&P 2-10-4 is a design that was also used by CGW, and I believe CGW also used USRA Mikes.
Most L&N modern power was based on USRA designs (0-8-0's, light and heavy 2-8-2's, 4-6-2's, and 4-8-2's), and these have been available from many sources. The running gear and boiler of the NKP 2-8-4 is correct for an L&N M-1, but you would need to do a lot of work on the details and tender, in much the same way that Casey does to get his Wooten-equipped engines. A lot of work, but worth it.
To make these engines truly correct for these roads, you might have to make some mods, depending on your skill level and your determination to conform to the prototype. But it's quite possible, and that's what is needed for a lot of prototype roads, if those are the prototypes you really want.
Short of brass, those are your options. It's just not reasonable to expect the manufacturers to build models of everything. If we are modelers, we can do some model building.
Is Walthers done with steam? I doubt it. Athearn didn't make steam for decades, yet they're making it now. Markets change, and if Walthers feels that enough demand has built up for their steam, they'll make more.
Is steam modeling dying out? Nope. Look at Athearn, BLI, Rapido, Bachmann, MTH, InterMountain and a few others that keep making it. They wouldn't if it didn't sell.
Doughless,Just because something sells out quickly doesn't mean it's more popular than something that doesn't sell out as quickly. I know, I know, it sounds wrong, but we just don't know the amounts of product made in the first place. Say they make 3000 copies of a modern car and 5000 copies of a transition era car; the 3000 modern cars disappear quickly, but the 5000 cars takes a little longer. Which was more popular?
ATSFGuy,There were over 150 Class I steam railroads in the USA. It takes time to go through all those, and oddly enough, Walthers wants to make the most money they can. Selling ATSF, UP, PRR, etc., is like printing money vs. more localized roads.Sheldon,You're one of the few people that models a home road. The majority of modelers today don't create their own railroad, they model a real one. In days of yore, modelers had to create fictional roads because that's the only way they could justify running PRR K-4's with UP 4-6-6-4's alongside B&M P-4's and IHB 0-8-0's. There was no way to really model just one railroad without buying brass.
Do you know what's more frustrating than pre-ordering? Not being able to pre-order because it doesn't exist. When I was a kid getting into the hobby "seriously" when I was 15, I really, really wanted a NH I-5 4-6-4. When I finally found one at a train show a year later, it was $500...in 1991! That's $881 in today's money. Today, I can go on eBay right now and buy one for $400. Less than half the value of that old brass steamer, and not only is the BLI a much more accurate model, it runs better and has sound (yeah, I know...no sound for you but still...).
It's far easier to find and buy stuff today. When I was a kid, I had my choice of local hobby shops...which meant anything I wanted as long as it was made by Athearn, MDC, or Atlas. Sometimes they went out on a limb and had Stewart, but that big wall of Athearn blue boxes was ever present. Which was great if you wanted whatever Athearn made, but for those of us that wanted something else, tough luck. Today, stuff is widely available and in so many different variations which were undreamed of in the '80's. Everything back then had one number on it, and they never ever changed them. An Athearn loco from 1965 still had the same number on it 20 years later. But back then that's all there was.
The Santa Fe had Texas types the outside of the loco are almost identicle to the CGW Texas types, closer than the T&P.
Paul, only one comment, I also model three prototype roads.......B&O, C&O, WM. I freelance becauee it is fun to create a plausable what if. I don't have any UP locos lettered ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
nycstlrrTodays middle class, hell, they can`t afford vacations. Both parents have to work just to feed their kids.
Or a parent cant afford to take there kids on vacation because they are paying exorbatant child support and can only afford a cracker box apartment with no room for a layout either. While you or I may wish for the good ol days when you actually had a two parent house hold that was the average family, it isnt the norm anymore. Heck. I just heard on npr today that the number of singles out numbers marrieds.
So, I guess the demise of steam is economics.
Is and was about economics. While I agree, steam was and is cool, after diesels where perfected, correct me if I am wrong, steam cost too much to continue to operate, so RRs retired their steam as soon as was practical. So of course, yes, economics. And cars and airplanes killed most passenger ridership as well.
Families just can`t afford to run to Wyoming, or Pennsylvania, Indiana, to spend well over a 100 bucks to ride behind these engines that are still running, and the kids have no clue about them. Plus they all have phones and every other electronic devise in front of their faces now. Off the soap box, like it did any good.
Not in outward terms no, but it did let you vent, so that is a little good for you.
Now go ask Alexa (Amazon Echo) to play Good ol days by The Judds!
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983