Paul3 Doughless,Just because something sells out quickly doesn't mean it's more popular than something that doesn't sell out as quickly. I know, I know, it sounds wrong, but we just don't know the amounts of product made in the first place. Say they make 3000 copies of a modern car and 5000 copies of a transition era car; the 3000 modern cars disappear quickly, but the 5000 cars takes a little longer. Which was more popular?
Doughless,Just because something sells out quickly doesn't mean it's more popular than something that doesn't sell out as quickly. I know, I know, it sounds wrong, but we just don't know the amounts of product made in the first place. Say they make 3000 copies of a modern car and 5000 copies of a transition era car; the 3000 modern cars disappear quickly, but the 5000 cars takes a little longer. Which was more popular?
Yes I realize that and I chose my words carefully. I wasn't saying that the quick sell out at MSRP or higher prices was a sign that the more modern equipment was overall more popular, what I said was that the supply of these products are not meeting the demand for them.
In your example, both products best equilibrium between supply and demand might be 3500 units for one and 4500 units for the other, or 4000 apiece. Given finite production resources, expanding the run of one product most likely takes away from the run of the other. Overall, if a company can sell those 8000 total units quicker than before and at higher margins, they will adjust their product mix.
Its all speculation of course, but maybe Walthers sees this and is sacrificing steam production for a while to expand the production of something else.
- Douglas
It is interesting that we seem to hear about more items that Walthers has canceled or are no longer supporting than those items that are being produced on time and with good quality. It appears they are feeling around for a direction. Hopefully that is all that it is. Maybe they know something we do not. The model manufacturing landscape is so dynamic today, you product can be antiquated before the first one is completed.
So many trains, so little time,
Larry
www.llxlocomotives.com
oldline1...The P2K Berk is pretty nice but I don't like the super thin tires on all drivers. It just offends my senses to not have tires....
I agree...my first thought was that it looked unfinished. At least it wasn't a locomotive that I needed .
DigitalGriffin ...I'm happy Bachmann offers steam. But you often find overly thick details, and many details missing, or just molded on...
That's true lately, but all of the Proto steamers I've seen came with undersize pipe: apparently the die makers weren't aware that pipe sizes refer to the inside, not outside, diameter.I did buy a Proto 0-8-0, and while it ran very nicely (it was the version without tender pick-up), it wasn't a very good puller. I was going to get rid of it, but took it apart to see if I could add any weight to it in the hope of gaining a little more oomph from it. After removing the lighting circuit board and the flywheel, I was able to cram some lead into those vacancies and performance was improved. In fact, it improved enough that I reworked it completely to match photos of a CNR protptype. This involved lowering the running boards, lengthening the loco's frame on both ends, and completely re-detailing it, including all new piping. The new air tanks (lead-filled brass tubing) added to the pulling power, too.This one eventually suffered from the cracked gear issue, but I was able to repair it, and eventually got a new gear, free of charge, from Walthers. I've kept the repaired one, too, just in case.
After that, I looked for a Proto 0-6-0, but couldn't find one at a reasonable price. I later got this brass locomotive from a friend. I re-worked it somewhat, too, adding a few details and some mechanical work, then repainted it. The price was very reasonable (free! ) and it will out-pull the 0-8-0.
Wayne
CGW121 The Santa Fe had Texas types the outside of the loco are almost identicle to the CGW Texas types, closer than the T&P.
The Santa Fe had Texas types the outside of the loco are almost identicle to the CGW Texas types, closer than the T&P.
Not to my eyes. The dimensions of the prototype CGW locos were copied from those of the T&P locos. Lima built both groups, and their cosmetics were the same in many respects. The Baldwin-built Santa Fe 2-10-4's had larger drivers, bigger boilers, and a totally different look. But if you think they look the same, I see no point in saying any more.
Tom
ATLANTIC CENTRAL No doubt that "current" railroading is a popular market. But countless surveys continue to show the transistion era to be the most modeled. A recent survey by the NMRA region is my area gave transistion era modeling a 60% ranking with all other eras sharing the remaining 40%.
No doubt that "current" railroading is a popular market. But countless surveys continue to show the transistion era to be the most modeled. A recent survey by the NMRA region is my area gave transistion era modeling a 60% ranking with all other eras sharing the remaining 40%.
I wonder if some of those countless surveys are slowly getting out-of-date as those who remember steam are getting fewer and fewer now. And a recent survey by the NMRA region I would guess to be skewed toward steam from the lengthy discussion about the NMRA in some forums including MRH forums; the make-up evidently of the membership appears to be lots of really old guys and not much younger people.
Point being that while interests have historically been very strong for steam/diesel transition era, that appears to be changing, and it is logical considering the demographic related to steam is fading away. Some polls suggest that the first/second generation diesel transition era (1960's and 1970's) is starting to take over as a popular era of preference. I'm seeing increased production of products that cater to that time frame such as lots of Tangent freight cars and Moloco to name a couple and lately Wheels of Time and Trainworx have been catering very strongly for that time period in N and even HO. Other manufacturers offer more of a mix including modern, and everything in-between modern and transition.
Sure, we all have our bias's and it naturally colors the spectacles we view the hobby and industry, and colors the way we comment about it. But there are factors out there which also point to logical changes afoot such as the changing of that sells and what time periods in RR history. Modern has always had a certain timeless popularity be cause people want models of what they can go out and see. But what sells from past era's logically changes over time.
I think the real problem is money, the exchange rate, rising costs in China, soft market for these products here, unwillingness or inability to tie up money in inventory, and the changing face of this hobby.
Walthers seems particularly risk averse but what I think is not good is that they publically announce varous projects and then cancel them publically. It doesn't look good and it makes it look like they are a timid and floundering company. Not a good image to project. C'mon Walthers. Stop waffling and playing at floating trial baloons. Let your yay be yay and your nay be nay.
But by the 90's we had a new breed as well, collectors/casual modelers, willing to buy more expensive RTR, less concerned about kits, or building whole trains or believeable rosters and more conserned about collecting their favorite famous locos (at big prices but with big discounts) and building layouts simply as a display backdrop to run them on. This has changed the market, and changed the money dynamic of being a model train manufacturer.
This has changed the market, and changed the money dynamic of being a model train manufacturer.
Economics is part of the above situation; people had more and more disposable income and were able to impluse buy stuff and the manufacturers responded. Lifelike P2k went over board with some diesel production and ended up dumping a lot of product and it ended up going for a fraction of the cost. Of course they learned that lesson the hard way and retrenched and started raising prices during the last few years producing some more "modern" EMD diesels.
I have said before, and will say again, if I was getting into this hobby right now - I would not. The difficulty of obtaining related products to build a layout with continuity today would scare me away - especially because I'm not one who is real comfortable buying stuff "used".
The difficulty of obtaining related products to build a layout with continuity today would scare me away - especially because I'm not one who is real comfortable buying stuff "used".
I feel quite the opposite. If anything some of the most excellent newer products in the last 10-15 years has re-energized my interest; As I noted above, there have been a lot of very nice 1960's and 1970's rolling stock that have been very nice and of great interest to me.
I have found it fairly easy to obtain with I want as long as I have the funds; I can usually order from various online sources and scout train shows; sure, maybe I can't find what I want at any given moment, but with some patience I have almost always found what was on my want list. As my wife would say, the world of model railroading is my oyster! I'm happy as a pig in poop! It feels like you are struggling with adapting to the modern world vs. the old way of buying hobby products. The world has changed for sure, but so far I've found with the computer and internet etc. it's really majorly enhanced my access to hobby products. If anything, it's not harder to obtain products but much easier.
Again, happy I have most of what I want. Sheldon
Sheldon
Happy is good. So from where I sit, everyone should be pretty happy. And thats how I see the hobby today - we have more products available to us than ever if you consider past and present products, both of which can be found with some patience and skill, and you have choices all over the price map from freight cars at shows between $5 and $15 or the newer high detail models in the $20-$50 range, and everything in-between. More engines than ever with whistles and bells and prototypical details, for all tastes and pocket books.
Back on topic:
When I first saw the title of this thead, I admit I was thinking Walthers is dropping steam? Did they ever product steam? LOL Ok, I'm out of touch and then was reminded oh, they did take over LL P2K which made some steam, and apparently did offer some from that line. I guess when I think of Walthers I don't really think of them as steam manufacturers. But all the hand wringing about who is left. I didn't even see Athearn Genesis mentioned, which has been making steam past 10 years, and quite a bit, nor did I see Intermountain. Of course there's Bachman Spectrum which many have liked, MTH, Broadway Ltd., and others I'm forgetting. There really has been a renaissance in plastic steam past 10 or so years from casual obervations. If Walthers drops out of the steam market, it doesn't sound like it's going to be a big loss so not a lot to worry about, there are many other products from others.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Do an image search on google for both types CGW's Texas looks totally different than the T&P.
A few more thoughts,
Jim, I know your not a steam guy, but fact is the "plastic/diecast" steam reniassance is more like 20-25 years old now. There was more available variety 10 years ago than there is today.
Athearn, Proto, Intermountain never offered much variety, but did add to the selection.
Bachmann, while not perfect, easily offered the widest selection and continues to offer variety, good detail, at reasonable prices. The list of different locos from Bachmann in the last 20 years is pretty long and varied, and covers a wide variety of roads and interests.
BLI is one extreem or the other, big, famous, unique stuff is well detailed and road specific, but they can't even change a trailing truck or move a headlight to make a 2-8-2 or 4-6-2 more correct. What a step down for them.....
Look, I like all this new high detail or product as much as anyone, I buy my share, but I don't need every piece on the layout to be that way, I'm a big picture guy. I was once a rivet counter, gave it up to have fun............and I like my 1950's Varney and Athearn stuff.
Yes Paul there is lots of product out there, but I miss stuff being "in stock". Clearly I had access to, and ran a better hobby shop than what you had back in the day. I hate the ebay/train show "hunt". There may have been less variety, but the gaps in availability of that stuff was months, not years............
I still don't buy into the "trains of our youth" idea. I know too many 60 year olds who model current stuff and too many 30 somthings who model the 50's. And most of my friends are like me, they model somthing before they were born. The one survey I mentioned was very recent, but admittedly was a small sample.......
Got to go,
ATSF Guy; CGW121:
Alternative facts. Dimensionally almost identical. Details differed. Look it up.
T&P 2-10-4 655-59 built by Lima in 1929: 28x30 cyl.; 63" dri., 255# b.p.; 100 s.f. grate area; 98,500# t.e.; 307,000# wt. on dri.; 457,500# tot. eng. wt.; 3.63 F. of. A. (other T&P 2-10-4 orders differed slightly)
CGW 2-10-4 850-864 built by Lima in 1930: 29x32 cyl.; 63' dri.; 255# b.p.; 100 s.f. grate area; 97,900# t.e.; 304,000# wt. on dri.; 461,000# tot. eng. wt.; 3.59 F. of A.
Compare these with the Santa Fe 2-10-4's:
Number 5000 built by Baldwin 1930: 30x34 cyl.; 69" dri.; 300# b.p.; 121.5 s.f. grate area; 93,000# t.e.; 372,000# wt. on dri.; 502,600# tot. eng. wt.; 4.0 F of A.
5001 Class built by Baldwin 1937: 30x34 cyl.; 74" dri.; 310# b.p.; 121.5 s.f. grate area; 93000# t.e.; 371,680# wt. on dri.; 545,260# tot. eng. wt.; 4.0 F of A.
5011 Class built by Baldwin 1944: 30x34 cyl.; 74" dri.; 310# b.p.; 121.5 s.f. grate area; 93,000# t.e.; 380,300# wt. on dri.; 538,000# tot. eng. wt.; 4.09 F of A.
Like it or not, the CGW was not a big road with a sufficient following to justify tooling for a big consumer demand. That's reality. But if you really want a CGW 2-10-4, it's possible to get one with the T&P as a starting point. If the project isn't sufficiently important to you to justify the effort, you'll have to do without. Dr. Wayne and Casey have proven that it's possible. If you prefer to base your model conversion on the much larger Santa Fe engine, and think you can pull it off, you can start with a Bachmann. Your choice.
P.S.
Sources: Lima, The History, by Hirsimaki, Hundman Publishing, 1986; and Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail, by Worley, Southwest Railroad Historical Society, 1965.
Let's not turn this into another "oh no the hobby is getting so expensive" thread, or I'll have to merge it.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Steven Otte Let's not turn this into another "oh no the hobby is getting so expensive" thread, or I'll have to merge it.
Respectfully, who said anything about the cost of the hobby?
Except for a few comments about the financial challenges facing the manufacturers, I don't recall any comments in this thread about the cost of the hobby, or even the cost of steam loco models?
Yes, I will continue to complain about the lack of product "on the shelf", but not about the cost of that product.
In fact, because of my background and experiance in the industry, I believe the current product costs truely represent the cost to produce plus a fair and reasonable profit.
Personally I look at prices and say yes or no as it applies to me, but understand why prices are what they are.
Sheldon,I know you don't model the UP, but I wasn't talking necessarily about your situation, rather in general about those who have home roads. For example, I helped sell off an estate collection from an old time model railroader who did his own northeast-based home road. He was big into steam, and his home roster included PRR, ATSF, UP, NYC, Union RR, D&H, SP, RDG, D&RGW, SP&S, etc. with an emphasis on articulateds (including a 2-10-10-2).
The modern day "steam reniassance" in HO scale goes back to the original Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0, which was MR's product of the year in 1998. The Spectrum USRA Light Mountain came out in 1999 and the movement was on.
There is no way there was more available variety in 2007 than today. There's been so much steam made in the past 10 years, how can there be less variety?
BLI steam is highly accurate...for the expensive versions. If you're complaining about their generic USRA steamers, that's how they keep the costs $50 to $150 lower. They aren't going to change those. And, BTW, neither does Bachmann. My Spectrum USRA 4-8-2 in NH should have Commonwealth tender trucks, but has Vulcans instead.
You hate the hunt for product? Well, what did you do 30 years ago? How did you hunt something that didn't exist?
Doughless,I doubt that production resources are a problem in regards to production numbers. Getting it made at all can be trouble (see: Atlas), but once a factory is found and a contract signed, the amount of items made doesn't make much difference to the factory (at least in model railroad terms; we're talking thousands not millions). Whether they make 3000 or 6000 units, it won't effect factory capacity. So expanding one product run really doesn't effect another's run. It might delay it, but it won't take away anything.
riogrande5761,The NMRA skews towards older folks and steam. The online community skews towards younger folks and modern. Which is right? The problem with both is that they don't cover everyone. In yon olden days, pretty much everyone got MR and their polls were a good indicator. Now, not so much. Our hobby is more individual now, like a series of stove pipes running parallel and not connecting to each other. How does one poll across the entire hobby today?
With regards to Walthers announcing products and then canceling them, it's real easy for you to say they should make it regardless of pre-orders as it's not your money. They're in this to make money, not provide a hobby service out of the goodness of their hearts. Expecting them to make money-losing products is a great way to drive them out of business.
The world is changing and the cost of production is coming down (price is going up but that is because we demand better detail and many want specific detail). Steam has always had a problem with the fact that generaly a bad diesel will run better than a bad steam and the low end is where a lot of people start. This is slowly changing, at least at Bachman which have been moving some steam from Spectrum to regular line as new product comes out.
Have we answered Don's original question in all of this hoopla?
Is Walthers done with steam?
In my initial reply, I noted that Walthers only involvement with steam seemed to be the Proto Heritage line that it acquired from Life Like. Walthers did nothing with it and seems to have abandoned the line.
Is my understanding correct?
Rich
Alton Junction
Rich,
I guess it depends how you want to define "nothing". I know that Walthers re-released the 0-8-0 and 0-6-0 switchers (w/ & w/o Tsunami decoders) and perhaps a few of the other LL Proto 2000s, as well. I don't think they released any new versions of steam after the acquisition though.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Thanks, Tom.
Paul, I don't have the time to go model for model through the whole list, but for example:
New Bachmann 2-8-2 and 4-6-2 vs BLI, while not all perfect Bachmann has several different tenders, headlight locations, tender trucks, trailing trucks - BLI, one size fits all.
Bachmann 2-8-4 vs MTH, Bachmann has pretty decent road specific details, correct domes, tender sizes for C&O, NKP, PM, and easily kit bashed into VIRGINIAN - MTH one size fits all.
Bachmann Mountains, light and heavy, not every roadname completely correctly detailed or correct for the loco, but lot of versions, most close or very representitive, some VERY accurate.
I could go on.....
Sheldon,The generic USRA BLI locos are also $50 cheaper than the USRA Spectrums (sound for sound).
Honestly, Why would any manufaturer make a new plastic steam locomotive? There are plenty of the basic models available in plastic, and good running pre-owned brass models are abundent and affordable.
.
I only own one plastic steamer, a Bachmann EM1 2-8-8-4. It is a maginificent machine, a true beauty. I have three Sunset heavy USRA mikados, they are also wonderful, and I paid about the same as the Bachmann plastic loco.
As long as brass is available and serviceable, I see no need for much more (if any) more plastic steam. I would much rather see more high quality plastic freight car kits.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL PRR8259 Well my Walthers Proto heavy 2-10-2 had very cheap valve gear that buckled too easily at less than 45 minutes run time when a screw backed out. Selling dealer repaired but it was no good and didnt work properly. Walthers did replace with a new one which I sold immediately. I did not trust that model enough to try the second one. I really wanted the C&S engine and was very disappointed, and it was not running very fast at all when the valve gear buckled...I just couldnt tell what had happened...till it was too late...Lost $200 dumping the replacement because they were hard to sell. Come to think of it, most brass models held their value much much better than that for me. Brass fans tell me I am much better off with the more costly brass steamers. The newer ones are very good though also costly but I get what I pay for. John, do you mean to imply you have never had a problem with a brass loco? ...Well, John, you seem to be the lone unhappy Proto steam customer. Sheldon
PRR8259 Well my Walthers Proto heavy 2-10-2 had very cheap valve gear that buckled too easily at less than 45 minutes run time when a screw backed out. Selling dealer repaired but it was no good and didnt work properly. Walthers did replace with a new one which I sold immediately. I did not trust that model enough to try the second one. I really wanted the C&S engine and was very disappointed, and it was not running very fast at all when the valve gear buckled...I just couldnt tell what had happened...till it was too late...Lost $200 dumping the replacement because they were hard to sell. Come to think of it, most brass models held their value much much better than that for me. Brass fans tell me I am much better off with the more costly brass steamers. The newer ones are very good though also costly but I get what I pay for.
Well my Walthers Proto heavy 2-10-2 had very cheap valve gear that buckled too easily at less than 45 minutes run time when a screw backed out. Selling dealer repaired but it was no good and didnt work properly. Walthers did replace with a new one which I sold immediately. I did not trust that model enough to try the second one. I really wanted the C&S engine and was very disappointed, and it was not running very fast at all when the valve gear buckled...I just couldnt tell what had happened...till it was too late...Lost $200 dumping the replacement because they were hard to sell. Come to think of it, most brass models held their value much much better than that for me.
Brass fans tell me I am much better off with the more costly brass steamers. The newer ones are very good though also costly but I get what I pay for.
John, do you mean to imply you have never had a problem with a brass loco?
...Well, John, you seem to be the lone unhappy Proto steam customer.
Rich, that is the question after all. Considering they never were a big player in the market, and considering the abundance of steam product on the market, they may be devoting more of their production to the products that demand more supply. Just speculation of course.
Many people thought that Kato was out of the HO market, and then they release another updated run of the GP35 after quite a few years. So who knows, maybe Walthers just feels there are enough 0-8-0s and 0-6-0s out there for a while.
Paul3 Sheldon,The generic USRA BLI locos are also $50 cheaper than the USRA Spectrums (sound for sound).
Retail maybe, but Bachmann street prices are always lower than BLI street prices - different wholesale discount structure.....
A quick survey of new items on Ebay put BLI and Bachmann Mikes at aboutthe same prices, with Bachmann averaging slightly lower......
PRR8259 ATLANTIC CENTRAL PRR8259 Well my Walthers Proto heavy 2-10-2 had very cheap valve gear that buckled too easily at less than 45 minutes run time when a screw backed out. Selling dealer repaired but it was no good and didnt work properly. Walthers did replace with a new one which I sold immediately. I did not trust that model enough to try the second one. I really wanted the C&S engine and was very disappointed, and it was not running very fast at all when the valve gear buckled...I just couldnt tell what had happened...till it was too late...Lost $200 dumping the replacement because they were hard to sell. Come to think of it, most brass models held their value much much better than that for me. Brass fans tell me I am much better off with the more costly brass steamers. The newer ones are very good though also costly but I get what I pay for. John, do you mean to imply you have never had a problem with a brass loco? ...Well, John, you seem to be the lone unhappy Proto steam customer. Sheldon Sheldon-- I didn't say that and will explain, but first--there were many people comparatively singing the praises of how great Proto steam is and has been, etc. There are actually some people who were not totally happy with it. I just happen to be the one to actually post something. The 2-10-2 was fussy, and did not work correctly after a pro even fixed it...not some yahoo repair man like myself. The pro tech's opinion was that it was "not a very good" mechanism. He repairs trains all day every day for a good train store. Perhaps he is biased in favor of more robust trains like S and O scale. Regarding brass, actually I had two notably bad experiences in the last 25 years and both were due not to an inherent fault in the engine, but the way someone had worked on said brass engine. In one case, a horrible paint job was done that looked pretty good, but the person who re-assembled it (the previous owner did the paint) made some key mistakes such that the model ran poorly and had shorts. It looked as if it was painted only to sit on a shelf ie paint on body and on tender truck bolsters is unacceptable for electrical conductivity. In the other case someone had disassembled a precision scale articulated and left out a very important part: a special spring loaded roller assembly that kept the boiler up off the front engine, but also put weight on the front engine. Uncle Dave's Brass was able to get a replacement part from Precision Scale in that case. There are of course older brass models out there that have some significant issues--those I avoid and don't even look at. The new stuff, recent years production, runs amazingly well right out of the box--virtually flawlessly--with lights, functioning class lights--even now dcc on some of it. However, they are legitimately rare items, and one can expect to pay a significant sum. With stainless steel tires--they don't show wear even after use. The newer high-priced models will hold their value, if/when I want to sell a couple to help my kids pay for college or for whatever reason. I am not talking about the average 40 year old Samhongsa or Ajin production, at all. Some folks love the Proto 2000 steamers, while others have legitimate concerns regarding not being able to get parts out of Walthers (on other forums that has been an ongoing topic). I just can't pretend that all is sunshine and rainbows all the time. And yes, even with brass, buyer beware or be able to fix or have competent tech, because it isn't always perfect either. It's also fair to say on my modest layout that whatever is running is only lightly taxed by modest train lengths.
John, I only have few thoughts, the whole parts thing stinks with all this new product.
If I needed my hobby purchases to hold their value, I would never be in this hobby.
The money that I actually want to invest is in real estate.......
nycstlrrI am sure my reply will just be blown right over as they usually are. Here are my 2 cents. My kids were raised with Jerry Joe`s steam on the Ohio Central. I was raised on steam when I was a kid. All of my kids ran on many trips on a Saturday out of Sugarcreek. What better thing is there (then) in Ohio? Run over to Amish county, get some cheese, meat and sodas. And take a trip behind the 1551 or 1293. Kids today no longer have this chance. Jerry quit doing this well over a decade ago. Heck, they even got to ride behind the GTW 6325 when he had it running. Ok, enough of that, it is just whipping a dead horse, as they will never return to Sugarcreek like that. A few years back, we took my son in law and oldest daughter to CVSR to ride behind the 765. My son in law had never seen a steam engine in his life. He is now hooked. That is part of the problem, todays generation has no idea what a steam engine is. I am just thankful NS lets the 765 use their tracks to Bellevue, then the 765 takes over on the Wheeling. If Walthers quits making steam, it is not our fault! Us Geezer`s know what steam is and we are kicking the bucket everyday. Todays generation and the last few, grew up with Diesel. So, they will model what they see and grew up with, I guess. I grew up in the Diesel generation but I rode steam from coast to coast. Todays middle class, hell, they can`t afford vacations. Both parents have to work just to feed their kids. So, I guess the demise of steam is economics. Families just can`t afford to run to Wyoming, or Pennsylvania, Indiana, to spend well over a 100 bucks to ride behind these engines that are still running, and the kids have no clue about them. Plus they all have phones and every other electronic devise in front of their faces now. Off the soap box, like it did any good.
nycstlrrI am sure my reply will just be blown right over as they usually are. Here are my 2 cents. My kids were raised with Jerry Joe`s steam on the Ohio Central. I was raised on steam when I was a kid. All of my kids ran on many trips on a Saturday out of Sugarcreek. What better thing is there (then) in Ohio? Run over to Amish county, get some cheese, meat and sodas. And take a trip behind the 1551 or 1293. Kids today no longer have this chance. Jerry quit doing this well over a decade ago. Heck, they even got to ride behind the GTW 6325 when he had it running. Ok, enough of that, it is just whipping a dead horse, as they will never return to Sugarcreek like that. A few years back, we took my son in law and oldest daughter to CVSR to ride behind the 765. My son in law had never seen a steam engine in his life. He is now hooked. That is part of the problem, todays generation has no idea what a steam engine is. I am just thankful NS lets the 765 use their tracks to Bellevue, then the 765 takes over on the Wheeling. If Walthers quits making steam, it is not our fault! Us Geezer`s know what steam is and we are kicking the bucket everyday. Todays generation and the last few, grew up with Diesel. So, they will model what they see and grew up with, I guess. I grew up in the Diesel generation but I rode steam from coast to coast. Todays middle class, hell, they can`t afford vacations. Both parents have to work just to feed their kids.
I really wish people your generation would stop making assumptions/generalizations about my generation. Im 29. I model the transition era on my home layout (now awaiting re-assembly). I dont typically bring more than one or two steam locomotives to their mechanisms tending to be more susceptable to damage than a diesel. Edit (I dont bring much steam to train shows, I typically run diesel locomotives, due to the before mentioned tendency to be fragile).
My mother was a school teacher in Indiana and my father a television repair man. Combined income was less than $60,000 a year. Yet some how I turned out a transition era modeler. May have been something to do with the N&W 1218 video tape I watched as a child several hundred times, also the Water Level Route video equally hundreds of times watched as well.
nycstlrrSo, I guess the demise of steam is economics. Families just can`t afford to run to Wyoming, or Pennsylvania, Indiana, to spend well over a 100 bucks to ride behind these engines that are still running, and the kids have no clue about them.
Hmm or how about the thousands of people who came out to see N&W 611? Or the thousands of children who follow model steam locomotive around my club layout at train shows.
This exact point was brought up tonight (these kinds of internet posts) at my clubs Wednesday dinner get to gether prior to our evening work session. There's a guy in my club who is 25 who also models transition era, and he's been seeing this same type of stuff on MRH.
How about the guy on here that is building his first layout running Thomas trains? He's 16... It may be a kids show, but its still a thing.
My 12 year old cousin absoutely loves steam trains.
nycstlrrPlus they all have phones and every other electronic devise in front of their faces now. Off the soap box, like it did any good.
Yep so what you are saying is that no boy ever got distracted from model railroading by cars and girls? The how has just changed. Also some of them are watching train videos...
As for the good it did, well you got me on my soap box.
And now that Im done with my rant.
If I had to make guesses/assumptions, reason that Walthers didnt run steam this year is that the market is saturated with second hand 0-8-0s and 0-6-0s. Also the dies wore out for the P2K wheelsets (my last package of them had major defects). Which would indicate that maybe the dies where getting old on the originals.
I have seen no less than 6 Heritage Proto 2k steam switchers at almost every show I have been to over the last 3 years. So many that I have been able to be nitpicky about the ones I select.
For the very reason nycstlrr mentioned, older generations are dying (natural order of things) and their collections appear on the second hand market. I have had no trouble fleshing out my roster with 0-6-0s, 0-8-0s, 2-8-0s, 2-8-2s and so on. Give it time. If they see a demand they will likely run them again, but probably under the new "preorder everything" scheme that has begun to predominate the market. And they will probably re-tool. Its nothing to get excited about. Im pretty sure this is not the first year a manufacturer has not listed as steam locomotive in their product line.
BMMECNYC nycstlrr I am sure my reply will just be blown right over as they usually are. Here are my 2 cents. My kids were raised with Jerry Joe`s steam on the Ohio Central. I was raised on steam when I was a kid. All of my kids ran on many trips on a Saturday out of Sugarcreek. What better thing is there (then) in Ohio? Run over to Amish county, get some cheese, meat and sodas. And take a trip behind the 1551 or 1293. Kids today no longer have this chance. Jerry quit doing this well over a decade ago. Heck, they even got to ride behind the GTW 6325 when he had it running. Ok, enough of that, it is just whipping a dead horse, as they will never return to Sugarcreek like that. A few years back, we took my son in law and oldest daughter to CVSR to ride behind the 765. My son in law had never seen a steam engine in his life. He is now hooked. That is part of the problem, todays generation has no idea what a steam engine is. I am just thankful NS lets the 765 use their tracks to Bellevue, then the 765 takes over on the Wheeling. If Walthers quits making steam, it is not our fault! Us Geezer`s know what steam is and we are kicking the bucket everyday. Todays generation and the last few, grew up with Diesel. So, they will model what they see and grew up with, I guess. I grew up in the Diesel generation but I rode steam from coast to coast. Todays middle class, hell, they can`t afford vacations. Both parents have to work just to feed their kids. I really wish people your generation would stop making assumptions/generalizations about my generation. Im 29. I model the transition era on my home layout (now awaiting re-assembly). I dont typically bring more than one or two steam locomotives to their mechanisms tending to be more susceptable to damage than a diesel. My mother was a school teacher in Indiana and my father a television repair man. Combined income was less than $60,000 a year. Yet some how I turned out a transition era modeler. May have been something to do with the N&W 1218 video tape I watched as a child several hundred times, also the Water Level Route video equally hundreds of times watched as well. nycstlrr So, I guess the demise of steam is economics. Families just can`t afford to run to Wyoming, or Pennsylvania, Indiana, to spend well over a 100 bucks to ride behind these engines that are still running, and the kids have no clue about them. Hmm or how about the thousands of people who came out to see N&W 611? Or the thousands of children who follow model steam locomotive around my club layout at train shows. This exact point was brought up tonight (these kinds of internet posts) at my clubs Wednesday dinner get to gether prior to our evening work session. There's a guy in my club who is 25 who also models transition era, and he's been seeing this same type of stuff on MRH. How about the guy on here that is building his first layout running Thomas trains? He's 16... It may be a kids show, but its still a thing. My 12 year old cousin absoutely loves steam trains. nycstlrr Plus they all have phones and every other electronic devise in front of their faces now. Off the soap box, like it did any good. Yep so what you are saying is that no boy ever got distracted from model railroading by cars and girls? The how has just changed. Also some of them are watching train videos... As for the good it did, well you got me on my soap box.
nycstlrr I am sure my reply will just be blown right over as they usually are. Here are my 2 cents. My kids were raised with Jerry Joe`s steam on the Ohio Central. I was raised on steam when I was a kid. All of my kids ran on many trips on a Saturday out of Sugarcreek. What better thing is there (then) in Ohio? Run over to Amish county, get some cheese, meat and sodas. And take a trip behind the 1551 or 1293. Kids today no longer have this chance. Jerry quit doing this well over a decade ago. Heck, they even got to ride behind the GTW 6325 when he had it running. Ok, enough of that, it is just whipping a dead horse, as they will never return to Sugarcreek like that. A few years back, we took my son in law and oldest daughter to CVSR to ride behind the 765. My son in law had never seen a steam engine in his life. He is now hooked. That is part of the problem, todays generation has no idea what a steam engine is. I am just thankful NS lets the 765 use their tracks to Bellevue, then the 765 takes over on the Wheeling. If Walthers quits making steam, it is not our fault! Us Geezer`s know what steam is and we are kicking the bucket everyday. Todays generation and the last few, grew up with Diesel. So, they will model what they see and grew up with, I guess. I grew up in the Diesel generation but I rode steam from coast to coast. Todays middle class, hell, they can`t afford vacations. Both parents have to work just to feed their kids.
I really wish people your generation would stop making assumptions/generalizations about my generation. Im 29. I model the transition era on my home layout (now awaiting re-assembly). I dont typically bring more than one or two steam locomotives to their mechanisms tending to be more susceptable to damage than a diesel.
nycstlrr So, I guess the demise of steam is economics. Families just can`t afford to run to Wyoming, or Pennsylvania, Indiana, to spend well over a 100 bucks to ride behind these engines that are still running, and the kids have no clue about them.
nycstlrr Plus they all have phones and every other electronic devise in front of their faces now. Off the soap box, like it did any good.
Well said, and I'm one of those almost old guys, about to be 60. I never saw a steam loco in regular service, but my parents did take me to Strasburg on a regular basis....I model 1954, three years before my birth, and easily a decade before I had any real sense of the age or design of trains.
I too know young guys modeling the 50's, and I know guys older than me modeling todays railroads.
One big problem the manufaturers face, which I have tried to explain before, is this:
In 1968, when I started in this hobby, 1968 trains were the "modern trains", 85' piggy backs, plug door cushioned cars, wide vision cabooses. But now that stuff is "old" and there are nearly 50 years of new stuff since 1968.
But I suspect there are not a great many more modelers, so the interest in any one era is greatly diluted compared to back them. A real problem for the manufacturers....
Sheldon--
Well perhaps I wish I had money in real estate. One point is that used plastic mass produced steamers will not increase in value but the good, limited run brass actually does. There have been several posts in this very thread about the CGW 2-10-4. At least one amazing model of them was done recently. It is a gorgeous engine even better looking than the T&P version. I would love to own one of those models. If my memory is correct the value of the CGW version is up over 50% above the price when new.
I am not in this hobby to make money, and I just blew out most of my lesser priced trains to raise cash to get a neat Rock Island 2-8-2 that was available...I may be soon down to a couple freight cars, 2 nice hybrids and 2 nice other engines but it was worth it and I just broke down and ordered Stagner's Rock Island Steam Finale even though not a fan of his books.
I am 48, have no memory of steam save Strasburg and Steamtown, butI am enjoying learning about the last years of steam and the truly magnificent engineering that went into both the real ones and the models of them. I reached a pont where I wanted a few nice steamers even if that meant nothing else...I just like watching them run and am looking forward to seeing 1309 back from the dead.
I have no illusions. I am in a minority in the under 50 crowd. Sales of HO steam are not what they once were and it is not about the price structure at all. Perhaps not the big articulateds, but plenty of smaller Proto steamers are on the market. I owned some of them, too. It seems to me the prices have been falling on them, generally.
I think there will always be some steam or transition era fans.
However, I am the youngest of a group of guys who were rabid regulars at Timonium...they mostly drifted away from playing with steamers, at least the ones still alive seem to have. I dont know if it is "been there, done that" or just simply that we tend to like what we either remember or still see.
Excepting a guy known as "100 Dollar Bill" for his legendary thriftiness when buying brass, the issue is that most of "our" little group were too young to remember steam.
I am the strange one to go to almost all steam years after having given it up.
John
PRR8259 One point is that used plastic mass produced steamers will not increase in value but the good, limited run brass actually does...
One point is that used plastic mass produced steamers will not increase in value but the good, limited run brass actually does...
John,
That's just a foreign concept to me. The three undecorated brass locomotives that I recently purchased were purchased with the idea of 1) converting them to DCC, 2) painting and detailing them, 3) running them on my [future] layout, and 4) having something that was unique to my prototype. While I don't look to diminish the value of a particular locomotive when I convert it to DCC, its "value" is its importance in my roster; not what it will or will not fetch 5 or 10 years down the road.
Not everyone thinks the same as me. Once upon a time I collected coins. Years ago a bunch of collectors got into HO brass...according to Howard Zane, none of them were disappointed at the value eventually realized when they sold later on.
I dont customize much at all...sold a nice brass piece recently because the cost to have the complex paint job done would have been way more than the model would ever be worth. Instead I spent that money on something interesting and a higher quality much more detailed and painted model, which I will run.
My layout has somewhat generic western scenery. There are a lot of roadnames that can sorta fit in. I just get what I like and run it anymore. If I want to extend the steam era a little bit with late 1960's cars, then that is what I run.
Enjoy your trains.
John, just like Tom said, most of us do not understand your thinking. We are not in this hobby for an investment, or even for "collecting" like coins.
We are in this hobby for some form or another of "active" model railroading.
As for how many people model steam, or why, I don't believe for one minute all the arm chair phsycology that is dispensed here.
Fact is simple, it is 2017, there is way more railroad history, and way more choices of eras to model than there was in 1968 when I started. And there are likely only a similar number of modelers, regardless of their age or exposure to steam locos. That divides up the era choices into smaller groups, it's that simple.
I know lots of young people interested in steam, I know 70 year olds who have always modeled "modern" or current their whole lives. Lots of people are interested in history, lots are not. People still re-enact the war of northern aggression, none of them were around to see it?
You are the only person on this thread talking about prices at all, nobody else cares about the price of a Proto steamer or the price of your brass loco, they only care about getting the models they want for their layouts, but I doubt many of them are willing to pay $2000 for a loco.