riogrande5761--
I was not trying to say that you don't use goal setting, smart shopping, etc., so I hope you didn't take it that way.
As applied to brass models, I've seen on other forums/topics people discussing buying an entire fleet of say as many as 50 of those new Scale Trains tank cars...then I can't help but wonder if some of them might be among those who say "I can't afford brass"...when in reality they are just buying what they like, period. To me, anybody that can afford 50 or so of a new state-of-the-art freight car really wouldn't have any issue affording the occasional brass model.
It's a question of priorities: Do you need a massive fleet of this, that and the other thing? Or would a few lesser items, but of high value or quality, achieve the same level of enjoyment/bang-for-the-buck?
I think we all answer that question in different ways.
The only thing I'm not happy about with the new brass hybrid is it has a bit of a noisy drivetrain...
John
During the 1960s I started buying Southern Pacific Brass Locomotives for modeling the early 1950s, had about 10 locomotives. I like to run them in heavy Freight and Passenger trains on a club layout. but not a collector. Some engines would run okay and others not, always tinkering with them, got tired of dealing with poor running gear. I switched to modeling first generation diesel during the 1960s and scraped the steam, sold it off anyway. Athearn went from rubber band drive to a gear running, later added flywheels for smother running. Then Proto 2000 came out with their first diesels, with handrails and grab irons. Nowadays only one brass engine left running on the layout, a diesel Baldwin AS616 modified with a can motor and flywheels, about the best brass runner I ever had for a brass thing. With my layout in full operation the latest diesel I’m enjoying is a Broadway Limited, SW1500 w/sound.
PRR8259 Well, I believe this is where clear goal setting and planning--having some kind of plan--comes in, along with smart shopping. One can occasionally find a good deal on Rio Grande brass standard gauge steamers. I think if one wants to go in a certain model train direction, and has the time and patience to wait rather than obtain instant or short term gratification, one can actually locate some of those rare steamers affordably. Respectfully submitted-- John Mock
I think if one wants to go in a certain model train direction, and has the time and patience to wait rather than obtain instant or short term gratification, one can actually locate some of those rare steamers affordably.
Respectfully submitted--
John Mock
John, I am mildly interested in D&RGW "history", I have at various times taken a peek at steam era modeling just out of curiosity. It is evident, as you noted, it would require clear goal setting, smart shopping, learning some new skills and selling off most of my current collection to begin moving into D&RGW steam era modeling. Being mildly intersted has never been enough to make me totally loose my mind and abandon my life long interest in modeling second generation diesel era SP & D&RGW. I do try to use goal setting, smart shopping etc. to achieve my present goals too and it's less complicated and expensive to boot.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Ive found that brass is the only way to get a faithful reproduction of B&M steam locomotives (except USRA 0-6-0s and 0-8-0s, and the Bachmann 0-6-0 with slope back tender, close enough after modifications). Things like B&M 4-4-2 Trailers and P-2, P-3, P-4 Pacifics (wish I could afford them), are not available outside brass.
There are enough Athearn Genesis, Proto 2000 and Intermountain Diesels that have sufficient detail to make purchase of most brass B&M diesels not worth the investment in my opinion.
These are my brass purchasing opinions.
Paul3 riogrande5761,I am hardly in the top 3% of wages. I worked retail for 25 years, and that's not exactly the path to fame, glory, and riches. More like . But I save my pennies and get a piece when I can get one. Heck, I picked up my first couple of brass steam engines back when I was still in High School. I won't deny that I've been very lucky to score some deals on brass. I was given a couple pieces as presents, I inherited a few from friends who've passed on (not my preferred method at all), and I received one in exchange for doing R&D work in getting it made in the first place. I go to half a dozen train shows a year as a dealer, and I've occasionally found a gem for good money. But I've been collecting NH brass for over 20 years and not all of them have been lucky finds. You're bound to find some deals as long as you keep trying. While I do have a lot of capital tied up in brass models, I don't have a layout any more. And even when I did, there wasn't much on it other than plywood and buildings. I also don't have a smart phone, I don't go on long vacations, I only buy a new PC every 5 or 6 years, I only have basic plus cable, and so on. IOW, I limit my expenses and spend my personal money on certain models that are worth it to me. I'd rather have the NH L-1 2-10-2 that I've had for almost 20 years than a week's camping or unlimited data on my cell.Also, by focusing only on the NH, I don't spend money on hobby things that might otherwise attack my wallet. I see those NS heritage units, and I think they're pretty cool, but I don't buy 'em. I like those Walthers name trains because I'm a sucker for a matched set of equipment, but none of them are in my possession. It's kind of weird, but by concentrating on getting only the best NH models, I actually save a lot of money. Paul A. Cutler III
riogrande5761,I am hardly in the top 3% of wages. I worked retail for 25 years, and that's not exactly the path to fame, glory, and riches. More like . But I save my pennies and get a piece when I can get one. Heck, I picked up my first couple of brass steam engines back when I was still in High School.
I won't deny that I've been very lucky to score some deals on brass. I was given a couple pieces as presents, I inherited a few from friends who've passed on (not my preferred method at all), and I received one in exchange for doing R&D work in getting it made in the first place. I go to half a dozen train shows a year as a dealer, and I've occasionally found a gem for good money. But I've been collecting NH brass for over 20 years and not all of them have been lucky finds. You're bound to find some deals as long as you keep trying.
While I do have a lot of capital tied up in brass models, I don't have a layout any more. And even when I did, there wasn't much on it other than plywood and buildings. I also don't have a smart phone, I don't go on long vacations, I only buy a new PC every 5 or 6 years, I only have basic plus cable, and so on. IOW, I limit my expenses and spend my personal money on certain models that are worth it to me. I'd rather have the NH L-1 2-10-2 that I've had for almost 20 years than a week's camping or unlimited data on my cell.Also, by focusing only on the NH, I don't spend money on hobby things that might otherwise attack my wallet. I see those NS heritage units, and I think they're pretty cool, but I don't buy 'em. I like those Walthers name trains because I'm a sucker for a matched set of equipment, but none of them are in my possession. It's kind of weird, but by concentrating on getting only the best NH models, I actually save a lot of money.
Paul A. Cutler III
Paul,
I only have two pieces of brass, but I agree with every word you said about how you "choose" to aford what you want.
I too only buy what fits the layout theme. Brass or not brass, I have a lot tied up in model train locos, 133 of them at last count. But like you said, its what I don't buy that allows me to do that.
My wife and I "skip" lots of stuff other people consider "necessary" so we can each do and have what we want - not what others think we should want.
I have never gotten less than 6 years out of a computer - when I do buy one, I go big, fast and full featured - and they then last a long time before they become obsolete for my limited needs. Just bought one 2 yeasrs ago, the one it replaced was over 10 years old.....
As I said in my original post to this thread, there are a few brass pieces I'm on the lookout for.
Even my wife understands, when I buy model train stuff - $5 or $500 - it is all part of giant puzzle, not just a random collection......
Sheldon
U-3-b PRR8259 Well, I believe this is where clear goal setting and planning--having some kind of plan--comes in, along with smart shopping. Respectfully submitted-- John Mock When I was in my teens I was one of those purchase anything kind of people. As I result I had a lot of stuff and no real plan. After college and the military, I did like John said above and developed a clear vision and narrowed my focus and have stayed on track for the past 30 years. I am not knocking other modelers and their choices, heck the club that I belong to is a mix of all kinds of eras and models and that is fine, but for me personally I have saved a lot of money having a plan and not buying whatever caught my fancy either on the internet or at train shows. Steve
PRR8259 Well, I believe this is where clear goal setting and planning--having some kind of plan--comes in, along with smart shopping. Respectfully submitted-- John Mock
Well, I believe this is where clear goal setting and planning--having some kind of plan--comes in, along with smart shopping.
Well, I've come full circle. I started with no plan and bought what appealed to me. Then I developed a plan and only bought what fit the plan. But now that I have everything I need for the plan (at least what's available), I buy things that appeal to me. In the near future I plan to have what appeals to me layout in addition to the one I planned. I have decided that I enjoy collecting as well as building and running trains.
Enjoy
Paul
riogrande5761 Paul3 I must be one of those rare people that not only has brass, but runs it, too. I model the New Haven Railroad almost exclusively. Paul A. Cutler III Yeah Paul, but look at what RR you model. Probably much of their rolling stock requires brass. If I were modeling steam era D&RGW, I'd be in the same boat. ALL of their main steam is brass only; anything available in plastic are were short lived or leased such as the UP type steam engines or the 2nd hand N&W articulateds. Basically I can't afford it - and even if I did pick up a few old issue D&RGW std gauge steam in the lower price ranges, I'd have to learn how to make it run well and have it painted etc. Ain't gonna happen. An old acquaintence of mine models 1953 D&RGW and well, he once bragged that he was in the top 3% wage category in the US, so he could afford all that brass.
Paul3 I must be one of those rare people that not only has brass, but runs it, too. I model the New Haven Railroad almost exclusively. Paul A. Cutler III
I must be one of those rare people that not only has brass, but runs it, too.
I model the New Haven Railroad almost exclusively.
Yeah Paul, but look at what RR you model. Probably much of their rolling stock requires brass. If I were modeling steam era D&RGW, I'd be in the same boat. ALL of their main steam is brass only; anything available in plastic are were short lived or leased such as the UP type steam engines or the 2nd hand N&W articulateds. Basically I can't afford it - and even if I did pick up a few old issue D&RGW std gauge steam in the lower price ranges, I'd have to learn how to make it run well and have it painted etc. Ain't gonna happen. An old acquaintence of mine models 1953 D&RGW and well, he once bragged that he was in the top 3% wage category in the US, so he could afford all that brass.
One can occasionally find a good deal on Rio Grande brass standard gauge steamers. They show up at train shows for far less than the currently advertised online prices. There's two words written in invisible ink on every advertised price: "we hope" as in we hope you'll pay that!
I think if one wants to go in a certain model train direction, and has the time and patience to wait rather than obtain instant or short term gratification, one can actually locate some of those rare steamers affordably. At least I have in the past...once picked up a neat Custom Brass N&W Z1a/DRGW L-76 for only $600 at Timonium. It ran great...I just didn't have a painter for it. Should have kept it.
The Rio Grande steamers are out there to be had. I think the Western Pacific steam is a harder find/more expensive purchase. Their articulateds are less common than Rio Grande.
jecorbett dknelson tstage Dave & jecorbett, I've used both the X-acto aluminum miter box with their precision razor saw blade and the NWSL Chopper II to make precision cuts: Tom Tom and jec: the Miter Box from Micro Mark I was talking about is their new one, hardly thicker than my little finger:. They called it the world's smallest miter box and just introduced it. Here is their description: Our Micro Miter Box is sized exclusively for model builders working with micro-size materials. Make the finest 30, 45 and 90 degree miter cuts you've ever seen in wood, metal and plastic strips, rods and tubes up to .235 inch wide x any length! Excellent for cutting brass tubing . . . especially very short pieces used for mast bands and other items. Includes adjustable stop for making duplicate cuts quickly and easily. Works best with our Ultra Fine Saw Blades (#85853, sold separately). Approx. 3-9/16 inches long x 5/8 inches wide x 3/16 inch high. But now I see from their website it is sold out and discontinued! Sorry for the dead end recommendation. Dave Nelson Dave, I was going to ask if you had actually used it but that seems pointless now. As I was reading the description I thought I was going to have to choose between that set up and their power mini-chopsaw. I guess the decision has been made for me. Although $73 is a lot to pay for something I don't think I will use that much, I think it will be quite a time saver in addition to giving me precision square cuts so that might make it worthwhile. The project I have in mind is a large 12" x 13" hotel with lots of timber framing. It's been quite a while since I've had to cut a lot of 1/8" lumber but my recollection is it takes quite a few passes with the razor saw to cut clean through it. I can see a power saw saving me many hours as well as giving me much cleaner cuts.
dknelson tstage Dave & jecorbett, I've used both the X-acto aluminum miter box with their precision razor saw blade and the NWSL Chopper II to make precision cuts: Tom Tom and jec: the Miter Box from Micro Mark I was talking about is their new one, hardly thicker than my little finger:. They called it the world's smallest miter box and just introduced it. Here is their description: Our Micro Miter Box is sized exclusively for model builders working with micro-size materials. Make the finest 30, 45 and 90 degree miter cuts you've ever seen in wood, metal and plastic strips, rods and tubes up to .235 inch wide x any length! Excellent for cutting brass tubing . . . especially very short pieces used for mast bands and other items. Includes adjustable stop for making duplicate cuts quickly and easily. Works best with our Ultra Fine Saw Blades (#85853, sold separately). Approx. 3-9/16 inches long x 5/8 inches wide x 3/16 inch high. But now I see from their website it is sold out and discontinued! Sorry for the dead end recommendation. Dave Nelson
tstage Dave & jecorbett, I've used both the X-acto aluminum miter box with their precision razor saw blade and the NWSL Chopper II to make precision cuts: Tom
Dave & jecorbett,
I've used both the X-acto aluminum miter box with their precision razor saw blade and the NWSL Chopper II to make precision cuts:
Tom
Dave,
I was going to ask if you had actually used it but that seems pointless now. As I was reading the description I thought I was going to have to choose between that set up and their power mini-chopsaw. I guess the decision has been made for me. Although $73 is a lot to pay for something I don't think I will use that much, I think it will be quite a time saver in addition to giving me precision square cuts so that might make it worthwhile. The project I have in mind is a large 12" x 13" hotel with lots of timber framing. It's been quite a while since I've had to cut a lot of 1/8" lumber but my recollection is it takes quite a few passes with the razor saw to cut clean through it. I can see a power saw saving me many hours as well as giving me much cleaner cuts.
I model the New Haven Railroad almost exclusively. I have no set era, just pre-1969, so I have steam, diesels and electrics with my oldest piece dating back to 1907. The newest loco is from 1965. Almost every NH diesel I can get in plastic these days. But steam and electrics? Only a few have been made in plastic: 4-8-2 R-1, 0-8-0 Y-3 (both USRA designs), and the EF-4 electric (also VGN/PC/CR). BLI has made both 4-6-2's and 4-6-4's, but in Brass Hybrid.
So what is a NH steam or electric fan to do in HO scale without brass?
Well, I buy it, paint it, install DCC, and get it running right. There are some tricks of the trade in doing so, from making sure the weight is balanced over the drivers to making sure that the tender trucks sit square. But for me, this is a fun part of the hobby: taking something that doesn't run well and making it right.
Some brass locos are basketcases, but most are not total losses. A little patience, skill, and thought can make most brass locos run very well.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL jecorbett One thing I've never understood about brass locos and rolling stock is why so much of it was sold unpainted and undecorated. I could never see spending all that money for a loco and then have to do a lot of work painting, decorating, and weathering it before putting it on a layout. Did it have greater collector value unpainted? It's the reason I never considered buying brass for my layout. In the early days of the hobby, a much greater number of modelers were freelancers, so they might want that loco, but not lettered for the prototype....... And of course it would have cost even more painted - it is/was a hobby of craftsmanship..... Sheldon
jecorbett One thing I've never understood about brass locos and rolling stock is why so much of it was sold unpainted and undecorated. I could never see spending all that money for a loco and then have to do a lot of work painting, decorating, and weathering it before putting it on a layout. Did it have greater collector value unpainted? It's the reason I never considered buying brass for my layout.
One thing I've never understood about brass locos and rolling stock is why so much of it was sold unpainted and undecorated. I could never see spending all that money for a loco and then have to do a lot of work painting, decorating, and weathering it before putting it on a layout. Did it have greater collector value unpainted? It's the reason I never considered buying brass for my layout.
In the early days of the hobby, a much greater number of modelers were freelancers, so they might want that loco, but not lettered for the prototype.......
And of course it would have cost even more painted - it is/was a hobby of craftsmanship.....
My first brass locomotive was a Hallmark CF7; I had it custom painted and constant lighting & a beacon installed. That was 35 years ago. It was a short circuit waiting to happen. Beautiful model, terrible runner. Of course, it has the same number as one of the Athearn RTR CF7s, to add insult to injury.
Tom,
I have the same Exacto miter box and razor saw that you have pictured. I must have NWSL Chopper I because mine looks like a clipboard with a chopping arm and blade attached to it. I used that building the timber framing from the South River 5 stall Roundhouse. That was about 10 years ago and my memory is that I didn't get the nice square cuts I needed. It seemed to give me a little twist as well when I cut the 1/8" sticks. I'm wondering if the Chopper II is a significant improvement as far as making straight cuts.
I was on MicroMark's web page yesterday and they have a power mini-chopsaw for $73 and changed. That seems a lot for something that I don't know how much I will use after this one project but it might be the best bet for making square cuts.
Thanks for the reply.
As I mentioned before I obtained most of my brass locomotives at auctions. I found that very few bidders were interested in the poorly painted locomotives, or those that would take some TLC to get running again.
Those were mainly the locomotives that interested in me. The unpainted brass in excellent condition as I remember usually went for a premium, while those poorly painted and scraped usually went for a bargain price. Also, is a detail piece or two was missing, once again very little interest. There is still an excellent supply of detail parts available so while they might be missing a bell or whistle replacements were readily available. Especially misc piping and valves.
As I have a sand blasting cabinet, note that baking soda is now used primarily to remove paint form brass models. It was very easy to remove all of the paint off those brass engines that required repainting.
Not only was the paint removed, sand blasting left a great finish on the brass for paint and/or primer to adhere to. I also became somewhat practiced at using a compressor and paint gun as well.
Most of the brass engines I have on my layout are not available in model form from any manufacturer as they are Canadian railway engines.
I model in N scale. I have a few brass engines representing models that are not availabele in plastic RTR versions (e.g. a Samhongsa GE U33C). Today there are very few brass engines that I would like to purchase that are not made in RTR that are of good quality and are good runners. There is a site that reviews all of the N scale locomotives ever made and he is pretty thorugh and honest about them. A lot of the N scalers use his site as a reference guide for both brass and RTR locomotives.
dknelson jecorbett Since you seem to be experienced with kit building and/or scratch building, I'd like to ask you a question. Quite a few years ago I bought a large craftsman kit and am just now getting around to building it. I bought it at the NMRA convention when it was held in Columbus, OH whatever year that was. The framing portion of it is nothing more than a box of sticks that need to be cut to fit. From past experience with several South River kits that required the same thing, I have had difficulty making perfectly square cuts. I used a razor saw and a miter box to do the cutting but the slots it the miter box had enough space to allow the saw to twist slightly as I cut the piece preventing a perfect perpendicular cut. Since everything is butt jointed, it is imperative that the wood be cut perfectly perpindicular to get a tight joint. What method do you use to cut raw lumber so you get a good clean and square cut? If Tom cares to answer I'll be interested to see it since it is a real challenge to do this with the usual hobbyist miter box, and good alternative ideas are always worth hearing and trying. Dave Nelson
jecorbett Since you seem to be experienced with kit building and/or scratch building, I'd like to ask you a question. Quite a few years ago I bought a large craftsman kit and am just now getting around to building it. I bought it at the NMRA convention when it was held in Columbus, OH whatever year that was. The framing portion of it is nothing more than a box of sticks that need to be cut to fit. From past experience with several South River kits that required the same thing, I have had difficulty making perfectly square cuts. I used a razor saw and a miter box to do the cutting but the slots it the miter box had enough space to allow the saw to twist slightly as I cut the piece preventing a perfect perpendicular cut. Since everything is butt jointed, it is imperative that the wood be cut perfectly perpindicular to get a tight joint. What method do you use to cut raw lumber so you get a good clean and square cut?
Since you seem to be experienced with kit building and/or scratch building, I'd like to ask you a question. Quite a few years ago I bought a large craftsman kit and am just now getting around to building it. I bought it at the NMRA convention when it was held in Columbus, OH whatever year that was. The framing portion of it is nothing more than a box of sticks that need to be cut to fit. From past experience with several South River kits that required the same thing, I have had difficulty making perfectly square cuts. I used a razor saw and a miter box to do the cutting but the slots it the miter box had enough space to allow the saw to twist slightly as I cut the piece preventing a perfect perpendicular cut. Since everything is butt jointed, it is imperative that the wood be cut perfectly perpindicular to get a tight joint. What method do you use to cut raw lumber so you get a good clean and square cut?
The Chopper II seems to work best on thinner stock 1/8" or <. Otherwise, the single-edge blade seems to deflect as you cut the piece. And, you are correct - the slot in the X-acto miter box allows for some slop. I find if I gently press the side of the razor saw blade against the left side of the slot so that it's flush and make cuts in the material by only drawing the blade towards me (rather than in a back-and-forth sawing motion), the blade is less likely to twist and I achieve a straighter cut. It takes practice. Even then - I sometime have to file the end slightly to square it up.
Hopefully the above explanation makes sense...
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Folks, there's nothing wrong with discussing brass locomotives, but when people start impugning how others choose to enjoy their hobby, my antenna goes up. Let's all get along and play nice. Because I really don't care about brass as a topic, and if I have to actually read this whole thread to pick out what's on topic and what's a veiled slam against someone else, I may just decide it's easier to lock it. So... play nice.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
dknelson jecorbett Since you seem to be experienced with kit building and/or scratch building, I'd like to ask you a question. Quite a few years ago I bought a large craftsman kit and am just now getting around to building it. I bought it at the NMRA convention when it was held in Columbus, OH whatever year that was. The framing portion of it is nothing more than a box of sticks that need to be cut to fit. From past experience with several South River kits that required the same thing, I have had difficulty making perfectly square cuts. I used a razor saw and a miter box to do the cutting but the slots it the miter box had enough space to allow the saw to twist slightly as I cut the piece preventing a perfect perpendicular cut. Since everything is butt jointed, it is imperative that the wood be cut perfectly perpindicular to get a tight joint. What method do you use to cut raw lumber so you get a good clean and square cut? If Tom cares to answer I'll be interested to see it since it is a real challenge to do this with the usual hobbyist miter box, and good alternative ideas are always worth hearing and trying. I would merely mention that new and really narrow miter box that MicroMark is selling these days, and the very thin blades to go with it (the slots in their small miter box are too narrow for the usual saw blade, so I advise also getting their blades when you get the miter box). That might be one way to give you the accuracy you seek. Dave Nelson
Thanks. I'll look into that. I don't have a current MicroMark catalog but I seem to remember seeing mini-power saws but I have no idea what the price is. I'll have to go online to check what they have.
ACY I find the O.P.'s attitude toward modifications interesting, and maybe that's the subject of an entirely new thread. I don't want to send this one off on a tangent, but it's interesting that there is so much reluctance to modify models, especially steam locos. I witnessed steam in its final years, and have collected hundreds of photos since. I like the idea of running models of engines that actually operated in my target time and location, and I'd rather have them look like the prototype. That's where the photo collection comes in. On the same class of engine, you could find a New York air pump, or a Westinghouse cross-compound, or two single pumps. Similarly, I have seen at least three different types of tender on B&O E-24a 2-8-0's, and I like the idea of modifying my E-24a's to suit specific prototypes. Brass engines allow this, and many more recent plastic ones can also be modified similarly. To me, I consider myself a modeler --- not just a purchaser. I may buy the model off the shelf, but the modeler in me wants it to represent something specific, and I'll change it in whatever way I need to. Currently I'm modifying a brass Sunset PRR H8/9 2-8-0 to represent a specific H10s engine as it appeared in 1949. I've had to modify the valve chests, cab, and running boards, and am now doing some extensive reworking on the tender. To me, that's what it is to be a modeler. YMMV. Now back to the subject at hand. Tom
I find the O.P.'s attitude toward modifications interesting, and maybe that's the subject of an entirely new thread. I don't want to send this one off on a tangent, but it's interesting that there is so much reluctance to modify models, especially steam locos. I witnessed steam in its final years, and have collected hundreds of photos since. I like the idea of running models of engines that actually operated in my target time and location, and I'd rather have them look like the prototype. That's where the photo collection comes in. On the same class of engine, you could find a New York air pump, or a Westinghouse cross-compound, or two single pumps. Similarly, I have seen at least three different types of tender on B&O E-24a 2-8-0's, and I like the idea of modifying my E-24a's to suit specific prototypes. Brass engines allow this, and many more recent plastic ones can also be modified similarly. To me, I consider myself a modeler --- not just a purchaser. I may buy the model off the shelf, but the modeler in me wants it to represent something specific, and I'll change it in whatever way I need to. Currently I'm modifying a brass Sunset PRR H8/9 2-8-0 to represent a specific H10s engine as it appeared in 1949. I've had to modify the valve chests, cab, and running boards, and am now doing some extensive reworking on the tender. To me, that's what it is to be a modeler. YMMV.
Now back to the subject at hand.
By that narrow definition of a modeler, freelancers aren't modelers since we aren't modeling something that ever existed. One thing about being a freelancer is the freedom it allows me. I don't have to any need to be a rivet counter. I don't have to worry that the pilot is wrong for a particular road number. My whole layout is "wrong".
Just so I don't start a flame war, I am not knocking rivet counters. If modeling a specific prototype as precisely as is possible is what gives them satisifaction, that's a matter of choice. It's just not something that appeals to me. That's why RTR equipment works just fine for me whether it is prototypically accurate or not. It also gives me license to include other things as well. If I can invented a fictional railroad serving fictional towns, does it really matter that my jade green NYC boxcars were not around in the year I am modeling (1956).
Prototype modelers have the challenge of modeling something that existed as faithfully as possible. Freelancers have the challenge of modeling something that looks like it could have existed.
jecorbett dknelson jecorbett One thing I've never understood about brass locos and rolling stock is why so much of it was sold unpainted and undecorated. I could never see spending all that money for a loco and then have to do a lot of work painting, decorating, and weathering it before putting it on a layout. Did it have greater collector value unpainted? It's the reason I never considered buying brass for my layout. Well I suspect at least some purchasers/collectors wanted to keep it unpainted for its jewel-like prettiness. Ironically the importers eventually started to have the engines PAINTED a brass color to look even nicer (and to prevent the tarnish which raw unpainted brass was subject to). Supposedly the brass colored paint made a good primer, but most guys I know stripped it off and started over if they wanted to paint their engines. You can really appreciate the skilled soldering involved when it is unpainted. Also since purchasers of brass were often more advanced, they would often unsolder and move the details around to match a particular example of the engine in question since, as is discussed in another thread on the Forums, there was great variety within a class of engines even within the same time frame. And some guys were more fussy about detail parts and made changes to their engines so again, they would prefer it not be painted. As noted earlier back in the prime brass years lots of guys had their own railroad name and numbers for engines so again, a painted version would not be what they'd want. (And often "their" railroad had different standards for where the headlight was placed, the generator, and so on, so again they'd be moving stuff around. Or they'd be swapping out tenders. Note also that when brass was sold unpainted, a lot of guys were also buying undecorated plastic models for a variety of reasons - they felt they could do a better or more accurate job, or had their own ideas about things. If you have copies of Railroad Model Craftsman from the 1960s, the late Bill Schopp would tear brass locomotives apart and use them as parts for kitbashing. So again there was a part of the market for which painted brass would have not been desired. But there WERE painted brass engines, from PFM and others. I think it is fair to say they were in the minority. Dave Nelson Lots of interesting information above. I don't doubt any of it. It does amaze me that guys would shell out what brass engines cost in those days just to tear it apart and rebuild to their liking. I guess I've never been that fussy about that level of detail. I would never consider paying the asking price for brass, painted or unpainted, then or now, but apparently it was worth it to some. I do have one brass loco which I picked up for a song at an estate sale. Really nice detail. I ran it a few times on my old DC layout and it ran really smoothly. I think I said earlier it was a 2-8-8-2 logger. Actually it is a 2-6-6-2. It's been a while since I last looked at it and even longer since I ran it. I wish I could find a use for it on my current layout but it just doesn't belong. If I was going to put it to use, I'd find somebody to paint it and install a sound decoder. That would probably cost more than the finished product would be worth.
dknelson jecorbett One thing I've never understood about brass locos and rolling stock is why so much of it was sold unpainted and undecorated. I could never see spending all that money for a loco and then have to do a lot of work painting, decorating, and weathering it before putting it on a layout. Did it have greater collector value unpainted? It's the reason I never considered buying brass for my layout. Well I suspect at least some purchasers/collectors wanted to keep it unpainted for its jewel-like prettiness. Ironically the importers eventually started to have the engines PAINTED a brass color to look even nicer (and to prevent the tarnish which raw unpainted brass was subject to). Supposedly the brass colored paint made a good primer, but most guys I know stripped it off and started over if they wanted to paint their engines. You can really appreciate the skilled soldering involved when it is unpainted. Also since purchasers of brass were often more advanced, they would often unsolder and move the details around to match a particular example of the engine in question since, as is discussed in another thread on the Forums, there was great variety within a class of engines even within the same time frame. And some guys were more fussy about detail parts and made changes to their engines so again, they would prefer it not be painted. As noted earlier back in the prime brass years lots of guys had their own railroad name and numbers for engines so again, a painted version would not be what they'd want. (And often "their" railroad had different standards for where the headlight was placed, the generator, and so on, so again they'd be moving stuff around. Or they'd be swapping out tenders. Note also that when brass was sold unpainted, a lot of guys were also buying undecorated plastic models for a variety of reasons - they felt they could do a better or more accurate job, or had their own ideas about things. If you have copies of Railroad Model Craftsman from the 1960s, the late Bill Schopp would tear brass locomotives apart and use them as parts for kitbashing. So again there was a part of the market for which painted brass would have not been desired. But there WERE painted brass engines, from PFM and others. I think it is fair to say they were in the minority. Dave Nelson
Lots of interesting information above. I don't doubt any of it. It does amaze me that guys would shell out what brass engines cost in those days just to tear it apart and rebuild to their liking. I guess I've never been that fussy about that level of detail. I would never consider paying the asking price for brass, painted or unpainted, then or now, but apparently it was worth it to some. I do have one brass loco which I picked up for a song at an estate sale. Really nice detail. I ran it a few times on my old DC layout and it ran really smoothly. I think I said earlier it was a 2-8-8-2 logger. Actually it is a 2-6-6-2. It's been a while since I last looked at it and even longer since I ran it. I wish I could find a use for it on my current layout but it just doesn't belong. If I was going to put it to use, I'd find somebody to paint it and install a sound decoder. That would probably cost more than the finished product would be worth.
About being fussy and/or spending money:
I have about 800 freight cars. They range from Athearn Blue Box kits, and 50 year old Varney and Athern metal side kits, resin kits, advanced plastic kits, old wood and metal kits, to some of the latest high end products, and some of the latest mid range RTR.
But 90% of them have two things in common - genuine Kadee couplers (100% on this item) and my special truck set up. I take Kadee sprung metal freight trucks and replace the wheel sets with Intermountain metal wheel/metal axle wheel sets.
So nearly every freight car has about $10 worth of trucks and couplers no mater the cost of the car in the first place - the performance is worth the money and the time to change them over.
My two brass locos have been modified, tuned, tenders replaced, made to fit into my freelanced fleet. Neither was real expensive, but not yard sale steals either......
I'm not always real fussy about level of detail, but I am very concerned with creating a family look to my freelanced loco fleet. Nearly all my locos have been modified in some way to that end.
I bought my first brass loco, a B&M B-15 Mogul, from the collection of the owner of my LHS. It ran almost not at all, but it was brass and was less than a hundred bucks.
I re-motored it, changed a couple of minor details, then painted it for my freelanced road:
Later on, I gave it a more thorough makeover, using both brass and styrene to make it into a more modern-looking locomotive:
During that time I was painting for the same hobbyshop, and eventually became good friends with a couple of customers there. One was strictly a brass collector, while the other expected his brass to run as well as the state-of-the-art plastic diesels which he also used on his large layout.For these two, especially, I learned to do mechanical work to ensure that all of their locos ran well and that they all looked good, too. The collector wanted his locos to match specific CNR prototypes, and, in most cases, that meant altering brass (and later, plastic diesels, too). For the one who wanted them to run well, I was kept busy re-motoring, re-gearing, and also altering them for better performance.While both were able to afford extensive collections, neither was concerned about the market value of their collection, only that it met their particular requirements.Through this work, I got to see a lot of brass and came to admire certain ones, prompting me to buy another myself. It came with a so-so paint job and needed some mechanical work, but also didn't have its original box (a must for most collectors). I got it at a good price, repaired it and modified it a bit, then gave it a new paint job. Here it is with my friend's similar loco:
My latest brass loco came from another friend. I had done some mechanical work on it, including all-wheel pick-up, but he was concerned because it wouldn't pull as much as a much larger brass 0-8-0 on which I had done similar modifications. He mentioned that he was going to sell it, and I asked about the price. "Do you want it?", he asked. "Maybe", I replied, "....depending on the price." "If you want it, it's yours."We bantered back and forth for a bit, as I was quite willing to pay a reasonable amount for it, but he refused to sell it to me, insisting that I take it or he would sell it elsewhere.I did manage to do a bunch of work for him on other locos, so he felt that fair (even though I do the work for free anyway).Once I had the loco in-hand, I managed to find a few places to add weight, and offered it back to him, but he wouldn't take it, despite the fact that it'll now move an 18 car drag. I also added a few details and repainted it, too:
I have another nine locomotives of my own, non-brass, that need to be re-worked in various ways, so I don't need any more locos. However, there are four CNR locos, available in brass, in which I might be interested, but only if they were at really bargain basement prices.
Wayne
Brass – If you want accurate steam engines, cabooses or passenger cars, most of the time you are talking brass. Pre Blackstone, all narrow gauge locos were/are brass (I don’t count MDC). Most of the local layouts that hold ops sessions are all brass rosters. I own 15 brass steam locos – they are some of my best detailed and smoothest running locos. They are also some of my biggest headaches as well. I also have a significant roster of brass cabooses and passenger cars. I have painted a fair number of the locos and other equipment myself as well as re motoring and fixing.
Since I model West Coast short lines (HHRR, YV, SERA) and SP (1935-50ish), there is very little proto specific for those lines outside of brass. Even in brass there wouldn’t be a whole lot if it weren’t for a few makers (Beaver Creek, Westside, Sunset and PFM). I have found a lucky niche in that regard but every brass piece requires the work or the bucks to bring it up to running level. I have lots of $$$ tied up in locos that are unpainted. That is soon to change but not without lots of time and effort on my part.
I started out by buying Spectrum plastic stand – ins. They run great and look good – even if they aren’t road specific. I have since re-lettered and modified a few to get them to be close enough for the road. After I had a good running roster, I branched out into brass. I cut my modeling teeth with a bunch of hard core, Ops based narrow gauge’rs and that makes all the brass stuff seem normal…I have to remind myself that I am in a bit of a bubble in that regard.
Where the rub comes in - So many people overlook the amount of effort to get a brass loco up to the level of a Spectrum or any of the current plastic hybrids that run great out of the box, need no painting and often come with sound/DCC installed. If you don’t enjoy this type of modeling, brass will drive you crazy – Finishing, Fixing and maintaining brass can become a hobby within a hobby. I try to be a well- rounded modeler so I do a little of everything if possible. My brass experience has been overall very rewarding and enjoyable (although frustrating at times).
If your goal is a large, fully scenicked operations based railroad, you might come to resent the time you have to spend on fixing brass and decide to model lines that well represented with modern plastic or go the stand- in route. So much to do on the layout, so little time…
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site