It's a bit discouraging to spend a lot of time writing up a post for the forum only to see the whole thread disappear an hour later.
I would like to hear people's thoughts about brass model trains. Unless this is against forum policies.
Jim
That's a pretty broad topic. Since at least the 1950's, there have been thousands of imported brass models with some degree of handwork. Some are true works of art; some aren't worth the powder to blow them off the face of the earth. Some are fine representations of their ostensible prototype; others not so much. Some run like Swiss watches; others like Swiss cheese.
When I consider buying a brass model, I determine whether it's an item that fits my needs and represents a prototype I want. Then I consider the reputation of the builder. I inspect it thoroughly and judge its operating quality. If it looks like it fits my criteria and is worth the money, I may buy it. An item that doesn't fit, or which doesn't operate properly (or can't be made to operate properly), isn't worth bothering with, whether made of brass or any other material.
Over the years I've owned fine brass engines and I've owned clunkers.
Now that I've said all that, we don't know enough about your needs, wants, budget, etc. to give much of an answer. The answer will have to be tailored to you. What do you want to know, and what do you want to get out of the model in question?
Tom
I have had many brass engines thru the years and to be honest most were Not worth the price I paid for them. Most had good detail and most were lousy runners without allot of tweaking and even then they were still bad.
Todays brass is much better but not worth the money the mfgs. are asking.
There is just too many non-brass mfgs. Making and importing great products for me to consider brass ever again.
All the brass I ever had is now gone.
Brass has seen its day come and go. Good riddance.
Most of my motive power roster is brass - proving that brass is nice to work with if a manufacturer doesn't have industrial plastic or pot metal molding capability. I know that many of my models were built as low production rate items by people operating out of storefronts or spare bedrooms. AFAIK, only one was ever shipped to the United States for commercial sale. Max Gray picked up on the Toby model of the Imperial Government Railways 4020 class 0-8-0T - Baldwin, class of 1897. His 1974 asking price was three times what I had paid in Yokohama, and nowhere did his ads mention that the model was a 3' 6" gauge prototype built to 1:80 scale and fitted to run on HO track (aka HOj.) Tenshodo produced a Baldwin 0-6-0 in pot metal that had a remarkable visual resemblance to the 4020, also in HOj. (Tenshodo was and is a manufacturing jeweler with a fancy Ginza address, not the typical storefront operation.)
Since all of my brass models are Japanese prototype and of Japanese manufacture, they hardly form a representative sample. Also, I built most of them from kits, and did considerably more tweaking and minor modification than the assemblers who turned out the same models ready to run. Their performance reflects that. Of course, I dealt off my canines a long time ago.
I bought brass locomotives because the locomotives I wanted were only available as brass kits or RTR. I didn't buy them as an investment in anything but future fun. Well, the future is now, and I'm having fun.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
JimT It's a bit discouraging to spend a lot of time writing up a post for the forum only to see the whole thread disappear an hour later. Jim
Jim,
Discussing brass trains is perfectly fine on the forum. The original post was deleted because the person posting the link to a certain brass show was also listed on the vendor's page. (A roundabout way of advertising and promoting, which is a no-no according the forum policy.) The majority of the original post would have had to be deleted, which didn't leave a whole lot left to discuss.
Sorry it affected your lengthy reply.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I think brass has it's place. It's usually a limited run of a specific model. If you want that particular model great, if not well then it's too expensive for close.
I have a brass locomotive that's for a very small limited market - Sn2, WWF Forney. It's doubtful that market will ever support anything else in the way of locomotives or even a rerun of this model. For close enough, I have some MDC HOn3 kits which I plan to convert (also no longer available with no rerun in sight).
Enjoy
Paul
I have been tempted many times to bid on a brass engine, but each time I am stopped by my perceived negative aspects of such a purchase.
The cost itself is hard to justify when I can get excellent quality 'plastic' models for the same price or less. I would be much happier with an Intermountain F series locomotive which I can put on the track and run than a brass engine that will require hours of work to make it presentable and reliable.
Brass locomotives lack details. OK ok, settle down, most brass has great detail but they don't go the whole nine yards. I like lighting. Most brass lacks lighting. I like illuminated number boards. I don't like holes where the number boards are supposed to be and I don't like number boards that can't be easily illuminated. Granted, all that stuff can be added but so far I'm not interested in the challenge. (I hate drilling into brass!).
When I spend $300+ I expect the cab windows will be glazed. I can't recall any brass models with window glazing and I really suck at installing it myself.
According to what I have read, the running qualities of brass engines are all over the board. Again, if I'm going to spend the money I don't want to have to spend a bunch more to get the thing to run reliably.
They rarely come painted, and if they do come painted the price is usually way too high for me to even think about.
Finally, the biggest obstacle to making the investment is my own ignorance. I am pretty much clueless when it comes to accurate detailing, particularly on steam locomotives. I can identify the basics but I have a hard time getting a locomotive on the tracks let alone knowing which pipes and widgets are in the right place, and quite frankly I don't care. I do admire the dedication of those who do model accurately very much, but for me the hobby is a way to de-stress, not add to it if I am worrying about getting something wrong.
However, having said all of that, I love scratch building with brass. The locomotive in my avatar is scratch built. The detailing is nowhere near what most brass models offer but the price was right and it runs decently right from the start. Oh, and it has working lights too.
Oh dear, I seem to have been ranting! My bad!
Please don't think that I am criticising anyone in any way. I'm just expressing my own preferences.
All the best to everyone!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I purchase brass locomotives because i know of no realistic plastic versions of the locomotives I'm interested in (Reading camelbacks).
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
greg:
I admire your dedication to accuracy. Brass locomotives clearly fill a need for you which I don't have.
Each to his own.
So Tom, why was my post/thread deleted????????????????????????
Personally, while I have every respect for the quality and craftsmanship of brass, I only own a very few pieces.
Because I have been in the hobby a long time, and worked in this industry at one time, I thought I might share my views on why brass has never been a big part of my modeling.
First, I have never seen where a brass diesel, or piece of rolling stock was anymore detailed than what I could build or super detail myself in other materials.
Cost is one factor - look at it this way - I will explain using my personal choices.
I'm building a layout that fills a 900 sq ft room, designed for both good scenery and good operation. I combine my freelance ATLANTIC CENTRAL with modeling of the B&O, C&O and WM. I model 1956.
My operational plan calls for about 30 staged trains, typically powered by 3-4 diesels or two steamers - about 90 powered units. Add in some locos in the shop for power changes, switching, etc, and you need about 130 locos - that is about the size of my current roster.
Add to that 800 freight cars, 200 passenger cars, 1000 feet of track, turnouts, signaling & CTC, wireless throttles, etc.
Point? I have spent some money on model trains - I could have bought more brass - but brass, in and of itself would not have added much to my modeling goals.
DISCLAIMER - I'm not a collector. I don't own a bunch of locos from railroads I don't model or eras I don't model. I really don't have any interest in owning a bunch of shelf queens - brass or plastic.
So as a freelancer first, I have built my roster around the available mass produced offerings over the last 20 years or so. I have been in the hobby over 40 years, but I did retire most of my early loco fleet.
DICLAIMER #2 - I have never considered ANY model train an investment, and have never bought a train thinking I would sell it at some point in the future. In 40 years I have only later sold off a few pieces I changed my mind about. I only buy what fits the layout theme.
So for me, $1000 brass loco always looked like money that would buy 5 $200 locos, especially in the age of Spectrum and Proto2000.
I am a model builder, and I kitbash a lot of my locos - a fact that would likely have a negative effect on the value of a piece of brass........
So while they are very nice examples of fine craftsmanship, they just don't fit into my view of the hobby in most cases.
But interestingly enough, I am considering two/three brass loco purchases. I would like to pick up a WM 4-6-2, and maybe a couple B&O B18 4-6-0's. Short of that, the two PFM USRA 4-6-2's I already have are about all I need in the way of brass. Maybe I should not tell you this - but those two PFM Pacifics now sport Bachmann long haul tenders lettered ATLANTIC CENTRAL........
One more point, to give my freelanced line a strong family look I have done two things:
I kitbash locos to give them similar "family line" features.
And rather than have 40 different steam locos, I have multiples of each type/class. I have anywhere from two or three of each to as many as nine of the same loco to create that prototype roster feel - something also not as easily done buying used brass.....
Again brass is very nice, I would never downplay its role or value to the hobby, but it is not for everyone, at least not as large percentage of a roster for many.
Also, agreed as to the durablity of brass - but to be honest, in 43 years I have never worn out any reasonable quality locomotive.....
But as soon as I find a good deal on a WM K-2, I'm all in for at least one more.....
Sheldon
hon30critterI admire your dedication to accuracy.
not accuracy. Nothing in plastic comes close. Mantua seems to have one camelback shell they put on all their models: consolidated or pacific. So brass is my only option and I assume true for others.
Tom, thanks, I appreciate the reply--but I had responded in Sheldon's second thread, which was also deleted in addition to the first HZ thread. That's what didn't make any sense to me.
I will try it again here, and hopefully my reference to a certain brass show will be indirect enough to be okay this time around.
quote user About a year and a half ago, I wrote a thread about if a brass show again would work. I received 26 replies which were all very negative. Since there was so much passion against brass or at least on this forum, I proceeded with the show which was held in Maryland exactly a year ago. . . . This is not an ad for the show as I am no longer involved (I will be there), but this thread is about brass models and where they can be seen and purchased . . . and mostly learn about.
About a year and a half ago, I wrote a thread about if a brass show again would work. I received 26 replies which were all very negative. Since there was so much passion against brass or at least on this forum, I proceeded with the show which was held in Maryland exactly a year ago. . . . This is not an ad for the show as I am no longer involved (I will be there), but this thread is about brass models and where they can be seen and purchased . . . and mostly learn about.
Hi,
This is a subject I am very much interested in, and I looked up your thread from a year ago. I would (respectfully) disagree with your claim that the 26 replies you received "were all very negative." Perhaps some replies were, but most were simply pragmatic about the multiple values at stake for modelers who weigh pros and cons of brass versus whatever-else-competes-with-brass. So I think characterizing those replies in that thread as "all negative," either toward brass itself or to the idea of a brass expo, is at best simply inaccurate and needlessly adversarial at worst.
Second, as your intent in "this thread is about brass models and where they can be seen and purchased....and mostly learn about," I'd like to comment on places where people like me can "mostly learn about brass." I've been a model railroader since I was ten years old (five years old if you count Lionel trains), and I've had a relatively small number of brass locos for the last 35 years.
We truly live in the Golden Age of Technology today, and in particular, we enjoy a Golden Age of Information Technology. I agree with you that one can learn a lot in face-to-face interactions at either a Brass Expo or with direct, in-person interactions with brass experts such as you. But I also believe I can learn as much if not more through long-term participation in online forums dedicated to brass collecting and brass repair than from a brief weekend's interaction at a show or a weekend visit with you at your home (which I would truly love to do someday if the opportunity presents itself).
The ability to share information online, and especially for brass repair purposes the ability to share photo and video information online, is what separates today from the Golden Age of Brass Collecting. I am slowly acquiring some of the basic skills necessary to remotor, regear, and repair some of that poorly running brass that I seem to be attracted to. Whether it’s here, on the yahoo brass forum, social media brass backshop groups, online video tutorials, or wherever, it is possible today to acquire information through a remote access connection on a computer that was virtually impossible to get a generation ago without a personal mentor. (And I had one of those as well, when I was a member of a club.)
Just this week I’ve been working on a NJCB Lehigh Valley T-2. The motor was fine, but so far I've done a complete replacement of the gearbox, driveline, and a new torque arm installed. Two years ago I had none of the knowledge how to do these things, if I needed such work done I just paid others to do it. I’ll include a video of where this most recent project stands as of yesterday.
So unlike other posters, I actually have a fairly keen interest in brass, I am just not sure that the “trade show” model of spreading the word about brass is the only way to accomplish the goal of helping people learn about brass. Brass can be seen and purchased online as well as in person. People can learn about brass online as well as in person. The fact that others might actually prefer to get their information online and/or make purchases online should not necessarily be interpreted as a “negative” response to your advocacy of face-to-face dealings. There’s actually room in the hobby for both approaches.
Hopefully nothing I’ve said here will be interpreted as negative. I love the hobby, I enjoy working with brass locomotives, I’m not necessarily a collector but I have a number of different brass locos that I enjoy tinkering with. It’s all good.
Sheldon/Jim,
Your posts were fine in and of itself. What made it strange was that they addressed the previous post/poster and made it somewhat awkward as a stand alone thread because the original was deleted.
So, again, your post was fine. It was just a casualty of the original thread. I hope that clears up any misunderstanding.
I have two brass steam locos, converted to dcc with current keepers and add'l contacts, that run very well. Price of brass, plus painting and dcc conversion is not cheap. I also operate on a layout with just about every piece of Erie brass that has been produced. My experience with the ones that I have run has been good. Problems include mixing brass cars with plastic. Brass being much heavier can produce derailments and or shorts, an occasional but not frequent problem.
If you find a piece of brass that you are interested in do a search, you may be able to find a review. I was in some cases able to.
Good luck,
Mark
When I first got back into model railroading back in the late 1970s, brass locos were considered the Cadillacs of model railroading. Typical price for a steamer was $600 and would be about 3 times as much in today's dollars. They just weren't in my budget back then. Most of the brass I saw was unpainted and that just didn't appeal to me. I was interested in accumulating equipment to put on my layout, not collectibles. If I was going to run it on my layout, I would have to go to the trouble of painting it which I had no interest in doing. Instead, I built my fleet with Athearn BB diesels and Rivarossi steamers.
Later on a I did pick up some brass as part of an estate sale, a 2-8-8-2 logger and three Tenshado shorty Pennsy passenger cars which are still in the box I bought them over 30 years ago. I have no idea what the passenger cars are worth. I did check with my LHS as to the value of the logger. It seems that a lot of them were built so they have limited value as collector's items. Since mine isn't even in a box, I doubt I could get $200 for it. It has no place on my layout even if I wanted to go to the trouble of painting and decorating it. I haven't decided what I want to do with any of it.
In short, brass costs way more than it would be worth to me. You can get so much more for less money going with high end sound and DCC equipped locos than you get with traditional brass. I see them more as collectibles than working locos.
When I started in the "serious" side of the model train hobby, so let's say early 1960s, it seemed to my perhaps immature mind that brass marked one of several dividing lines between what anybody (including me and my friends) could do and what the real "adult" modelers could or would want to do (the others being scratchbuilt or craftsman built rolling stock and structures, hand-laid track, airbrushing, and signal systems). Thus obtaining a brass engine seemed like one of the genuine rites of passage for the modeler, and while I never focused on this aspect at the time, it is the only one from my list that can be accomplished purely with money, not talent or dedication. I do not want to use the phrase "snob appeal" because that is not what I mean at all, but I can understand those who view the desire to acquire brass as snob appeal. Rather it was clear to me as a youth that the acquisition of brass was something that had to await being an adult with an adult's income.
But even back then it seemed to my young eyes that brass diesels didn't look nearly as good or as accurate as what I could see in plastic in terms of detail. The nose contours on brass F units for example made even the most marginal of the plastic HO lines (Marx) look good. But brass steam I could see far exceeded in detail and completeness just about anything the mass produced firms could create, or that even a super detailer could add to them.
Eventually I bought some brass steam locomotives, seemingly more to say that I finally had a brass engine than to fill a gap in my planned roster. It was then that I learned that all the skills that made them look so exquisite did not carry over into the motors and drive trains. True I was buying lower end brass, and my first ever was a genuine disaster that even the North West Short Line advertisement warned about: the Cotton Belt 4-4-2 (NWSL called it the "Rotten Belt"). NWSL also offered to sell a 'MIM kit" -- that stood for "Make It Move." It had a Tyco motor -- not a Tyco quality motor, but a genuine Tyco motor, and this from the dreck years of Tyco not the decent motors they used in 1960.
Other brass, from Alco, Overland, and such lines, looked great and ran much better. A USRA 0-6-0 runs very well last time I checked. But with the larger steam (4-8-2, 2-10-2) then I experienced the problem that with each trip around the layout, the valve gear would all become unscrewed and would be just flapping uselessly, after running just a few feet. I got adept at replacing the tiny screws, but I never became adept at keeping the screws tightened enough to let me run the engines. So all my brass sits in the boxes.
A brass high cube auto parts boxcar was purchased because it was only $20 but it is so absurdly heavy that it will never run on my layout, even if I cleaned it up enough to paint and letter it. I will however likely run my Overland C&NW brass cabooses which were NOT bargains but which are truly accurate models for what I want, nice though the Walthers ones may be. I hate to think of weathering the beautiful paint jobs but it has to be done.
I do see that the prototype modeler who wants accurate models of particular engines almost has to seek out brass, often very old and abused brass, unless they are lucky enough to model a road that has been well treated by one of the premium non-brass makers. But even if the new Broadway Limited Milwaukee Road 4-8-4 is a perfect model, the modeler who models the Milwaukee Road in steam days still needs steam switchers, Mikados, Pacifics, Praries, and so on -- and that means brass. I now see that I was perhaps in error -- brass does not take just money. If you really intend to paint, letter, and operate the stuff it calls for skills. Sort of like owning a Model T Ford - ya gotta get out and get under.
Dave Nelson
I look at brass as a way to acquire models of locomotives, and rolling stock, especially passenger cars, that are not available otherwise, except for scratch building or heavily modifying other models out there.
I own only one brass loco, a Sunset Prestige Modern K4s just as a parts loco for my 1361 project. I'd like more brass models over time, especially if I don't like the alternatives. As to whether or not brass is "worthwhile", depends on the piece, and depends on the individual. For me, a brass model is worthwhile if the price does not seem out of line, and I want to neither scratch build, kitbash, or do without. Plus, the amount of work to get a model looking good and running well will determine whether I think the piece will be a worthwhile investment.
Shortly before returning home to Germany at the end of a year as an exchange student to the US, I had the chance to ride the narrow gauge steam train from Durango to Silverton. That moment, the narrow gauge bug had infested me and I never gor rid of it since. A year after my return, I ordered a Westside Model Company D & RGW T-12, a brass model, made in Japan, which sold for a little over $ 100 in those days - a fortune with the exchange rate to Deutschmark being close to 4 to 1! You yould buy two Marklin Swiss Crocodiles for that money!
About half a year after I had ordered it, the loco arrived, but what a disappointment! While the detail was fine (a lot less detailed than those Blackstone HOn3 beauties of today), the loco had a hitch in the git-along and hardly pulled its weight. I painted it, lettered it, put it back in its box and forget about it - for over 38 years! It´s my only brass loco and one of these days I will have some sort of a layout for it to run - never mind the hitch.
Looking at the quality and detail of today´s Blackstone loco, I am inclined to say that brass locos are beyond their prime these days!
The price of brass models on the second-hand market has been coming down. Some very good items are available at very reasonable prices today.
Many comments here reaffirm my original contention that there was a broad spectrum as far as the quality, accuracy, reliability, and general value of brass items vs. those made of other materials. It's true that some brass importers sold items that never were much good, even when new. Most of my brass models came from reputable importers such as PFM, Max Gray, Akane, Westside, Overland, and Key. I'm also fortunate to have a couple real prizes from W&R and Challenger Imports. Some --- especially the early ones --- have details that can be improved, but the mechanisms are generally solid and square, even if they might be improved with more up-to-date gearboxes and/or motors.
Running quality of some engines --- especially small ones --- was sometimes very poor. Some of those could be turned into fine runners with some tinkering. I suspect Ulrich's narrow gauge Ten Wheeler could have been improved with the addition of a tender drive and as much added weight as possible over the drivers. I have a friend who did that to a Westside PRR D16sb 4-4-0 (a notoriously poor runner) and turned it into a little jewel.
It's possible to form brass into complex shapes, but many early brass diesels were inaccurate in comparison with much less expensive plastic products. This was evident in the noses of a lot of early models of EMD E and F units. Dave Nelson's comments in this regard are spot on.
Current models frequently use a lot of engineering plastic, which is fine as long as it doesn't fail. Once it does fail, repair of the part is just about impossible, and replacements are often unavailable. Sometimes it's possible to fabricate a replacement from plastic or --- guess what --- BRASS!
A lot of early brass freight and passenger cars had trucks that were absolutely horrible. I've turned some real dogs into fine pieces by changing out trucks.
In many cases, a brass piece is the only model ever produced for a specific prototype. If that's the item you want, then that's the item you'll look for. If it's one of the many high quality brass models, then you're in luck (assuming the price is right). If it's a dog, then you can either pass on it or do what you need to do to improve it.
So it all depends.
One has to remember that the golden age of brass was when the modeler was expected to have to do some "tuning" to get the best running from a model, where as today we have come to expect near perfect running right out of the box. I got into brass steam in my teens, because it was much easier to work on, and geared engines ran so much better. I have stuck with mostly PFM/United, Tenshodo and Akane models. Pretty bullet proof drive trains, easily remotored or sometimes just replacing the magnet with ones from Micromark takes care of the issue. Most of the PFM motors ran really smooth and quiet, as long as the magnet is strong. Isolation of the two brushes is all that is required to isolate a open frame motor for DCC. I have large Pittman motors that draw under 1 amp under anything but a full stall and I have to manualy stall the drivers, on the rails they will slip before a full stall happens. Also remember that these models are very old now, a full tear down, cleaning dried up and congelled grease out of gearboxs and gear teeth is required to get a model running correctly. The old magnet at the rear of the motor will not be up to full strength after all these years, I usualy try a stacking some of the new Neo-magnets from Micromark or whoever has them at the shows before I go the more expensive route of a can motor, also more labor intensive than just stacking magnets in the motor frame. To me reworking a brass model to where it will run as smooth and quiet as a Kato diesel is very rewarding and enjoyable. I do this for several members of the local club and have had gentlemen send me models to rework. Right now I am dealing with an abandoned project of putting NWSL gear boxes in a NJ Custom Brass by GOM, N&W Y3 mallet. I almost have it done, motor is a nice little Sagami that came in the box of parts I got with the model. This one is for my good friend Steve. For idea on how good prices can be. I scored a late run PFM/United B&O 2-8-0, pro painted and weathered(but in a home road name), PFM sound installed, micro lighting and a really nice box for $100 at a show a week ago. I got the almost new in the box PFM sound/throtte console for under 10 bucks. Why, nobody wants the older technology and he was tired of lugging the heavy thing around. Same goes for older brass, the market is way down on common models from what it was just a few years ago. Great time to be looking to buy. A local dealer has a PFM Southern Pacific, no box and an early run, but a steal at $125. Or a HOn3 PFM K27 for $175 with the box. I can remember when that K27 would be nearly $300 or even more. Brass isnt for everybody, some get a bad taste buy jumping in to quickly and buying a poor model. I had a friend that was also a dealer and he made sure I got a good model for my first one and didnt get into the so/so models that need work till I was ready and able to do the needed tuning to make it run well. Mike
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
I still have a few brass, A Katsumi two cylinder shay and two other shays by others. The Katsumi runs great, always have, the other two, think one is a United and the other KTM won't run properly, might want to put in the work eventually to get them to work right but they won't be an easy fix. I have lots of chances to buy brass now for cheap but I just pass them up. The one brass I would consider (a shop engine), have not gone down in price, still selling for $400 plus.
I bought, sold, traded and played with brass models during the 1990's and 2000's, and then focused on house and family for several years.
BLI and others have made remarkable advancements in die-casting and modeling HO steam power. The latest BLI PRR H10s 2-8-0 features tremendously clean metal castings and truly exceptional factory painting. Yet at the same time the brass hybrids coming in, essentially "low cost" brass models rivaling some Sunset imports, are at still another level of detailing, fit, and finish above the more typical BLI and competitors' offerings.
There is a place on my layout for both. I play with both. Now 47, I'm just buying the steam power that I like without regard for whether it's Paragon2, or 3, or MTH or Genesis or brass. There are no shelf queens; everything I have gets run.
According to noted collectors like Howard Zane, properly maintained brass models will actually generally outlast the BLI, MTH, etc. offerings...I haven't run any enough yet to know for sure. I think the very latest BLI offerings might give brass a run for their money, though earlier ones were not perhaps quite as durable.
I can say that some of the finest HO brass models do actually have stainless steel driver tires and valve gear, such that you can run and run and run them without any apparent wear. I have no qualms about buying brass models today but am just more selective now that I have a better idea of what I like and want than years ago.
John
PRR8259 the brass hybrids coming in, essentially "low cost" brass models rivaling some Sunset imports, are at still another level of detailing, fit, and finish above the more typical BLI and competitors' offerings.
Several of the BLI locomotives ARE brass hybrids:
http://www.broadway-limited.com/brass-hybridseries.aspx
I have several of the streamlined Hudsons and the NYC Mohawks and they are indeed a great value.
PRR8259According to noted collectors like Howard Zane, properly maintained brass models will actually generally outlast the BLI, MTH, etc. offerings...
"Properly maintained..." there's the rub! I have maybe 2 dozen brass models from Overland, Sunset, Key, LMB, NJ Custom and W&R. Every one has had to have some kind of repair—often minor, sometimes major—usually with drive-line components.
On the other hand, many of my "mass-produced" Athearn, Atlas, Kato and even BLI locomotives probably belong to the "million-mile club".
I'm pretty sure most of the models that I have in brass will probably never (in my lifetime, anyway) be produced for the mass market... but 'ya never know!
Baldwin Centipedes? PRR Turbine? Commodore Vanderbilt? The Canadian steam from Rapido!
Never say never
Ed
When the model railroad bug hit me again I was nearing retirement. I had started a few layout previoulsy, but never a substantial layout.
This time I careflully planed my layout and thanks to a few pc programs was able to map out a very detailed layout in advance, before even starting construction.
I had opted for a few new engines, mainly Spectrum steam engines as they were by far the most detailed and are quite good runners.
As I progressed with the contstruction of my layout I had hoped to eventually have accurate models of both CPR and CNR as well as GN equiipment as those were the rail lines I opted to model.
Reality being that there were few models of Canadian steamers avaiilable to me and I wanted to model the time frame from the 1930's to the 1950's.
As luck would have it, I came across a couple of auctions of rather large layouts of mainly Canadian brass engines in HO scale.
A few years ago, not sure If it still holds true but on line Canadian model train auctions seems to go almost unnoticed by American model railroad hobbiests, or there was just very little interest in Canadian Steam at that time. For a while there were very few serious bidders.
End result I was qute fortunate to be able to obtain Canadian steam engines for a fraction of their retail value as posted in various publications that valued brass model railroad equipment.
I have found that even the older open frame motors were qute easy to modify with new rare earth magnets and that conversion to DCC was actually quite easy. As far as running charactreristics, I found it only necessary to regear a few of my brass locomotives in order to obtain engines with quite accepatable running characteristics.
A few years later I have a few dozen ho steam engines in each of my prefereed railroads, the CPR, the CNR and the Great Northern.
All of these engines run fine, have great detail and are excellent copies of their real counterparts. Also, if I wanted detailed models of real steam engines I had no option but to obtain brass models.
emdmike One has to remember that the golden age of brass was when the modeler was expected to have to do some "tuning" to get the best running from a model, where as today we have come to expect near perfect running right out of the box.
One has to remember that the golden age of brass was when the modeler was expected to have to do some "tuning" to get the best running from a model, where as today we have come to expect near perfect running right out of the box.
This points out one of my gripes about this hobby. With just about any other product we buy, if it doesn't work perfectly right out of the box, we take it back to the store for replacement or refund. That is how it should be. But for some reason in this hobby we have come to accept that even brand new equipment might have to be tweaked to get it to operate properly. That is true of locos, rolling, stock, turnouts, etc. I think that attitude persists to this day. Since we are so accepting of this, many manufacturers are lax on quality control.
jecorbett emdmike One has to remember that the golden age of brass was when the modeler was expected to have to do some "tuning" to get the best running from a model, where as today we have come to expect near perfect running right out of the box. This points out one of my gripes about this hobby. With just about any other product we buy, if it doesn't work perfectly right out of the box, we take it back to the store for replacement or refund. That is how it should be. But for some reason in this hobby we have come to accept that even brand new equipment might have to be tweaked to get it to operate properly. That is true of locos, rolling, stock, turnouts, etc. I think that attitude persists to this day. Since we are so accepting of this, many manufacturers are lax on quality control.
Well, it is a carryover from the days when EVERYTHING was a kit to some degree or another. Even an Athearn Blue Box loco needed the handrails installed, etc.
The problem is that even with NMRA/industry standards, manufacturers cannot anticipate every variation of user conditions - so often they don't try to........
Try as we might, in my view, this will never be a "plug and play" hobby. Actually I think it would be a sad day if it ever was. Marklin likely is the closest we would ever get to that - but being one brand they can control how everything interacts - and the prices relect that effort.
At the prices it would take to get perfect out of the box performance, I would get out of this hobby fast.
I'm very happy to buy a $100-$200 Bachmann loco and do a little tweeking rather than pay $500 or $1000.
Respectfully, I have said this before, maybe this is not really the hobby for you? Or, as I have also said to others before, I guess your not really in the same hobby as me.
I like my version of the hobby, and I have very few problems or complaints with the products I buy for this hobby. But then again, I like to build things..........
I only have some brass rolling stock, such as a couple of passenger cars and some brass cabooses; no engines - which were always out of my budget.
Even to this day, the only way to have correct cabooses for standard gauge D&RGW is brass. As is true with many railroads, correct passenger cars were only obtainable by brass or very talented scratchbuilding or kitbashing.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
One thing I've never understood about brass locos and rolling stock is why so much of it was sold unpainted and undecorated. I could never see spending all that money for a loco and then have to do a lot of work painting, decorating, and weathering it before putting it on a layout. Did it have greater collector value unpainted? It's the reason I never considered buying brass for my layout.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Respectfully, I have said this before, maybe this is not really the hobby for you? Or, as I have also said to others before, I guess your not really in the same hobby as me.
Amazing that you would preface such a condescending remark with the work "Respectfully".
A few more thoughts about "out of the box perfect".
First off, perfect on one layout may not run perfect on another............
Unrealistic expectations related to the comment above - Big Boys on 18" radius.....etc.
It is interesting that every $200 Bachmann loco I have ever had a problem with was quickly replaced by them.
But every $300 to $500 BLI loco I have had problems with was struggle to get good service from them........
Back to brass - some was/is darn good out ofthe box, some were never good - no different than their die cast/plastic counterparts......
If I have still not made it clear, even "perfect" is subjective. One guy buys a loco, and has no problems - he is pulling 20 car trains on level track around 36" radius curves and #8 turnouts. Another guy buys the loco and calls it a piece of junk - he tries to pull 40 cars up 3% grades around 20" radius curves and thru #4 turnouts.......it derails constantly........
But what do I know, I once worked in several hobby shops and have been doing this for 40 years......