I am with Sheldon except I got rid of a lot of stuff because the new stuff was better than the old and got rid of anything that did not run well out of the box (except for a few brass). Since I ussually bought at a good price, I at least broke even on most stuff (except for some brass that I sold).
BMMECNYC--
With a little help from my dad, I built a Bowser ex-PRR L-1s 2-8-2 which Bowser's in-house painter then painted and lettered Santa Fe for me (ATSF bought 3 during WWII). I am nowhere near the capabilities of the Boo Rim craftsman and would never be happy with something I built that could never approach the quality of what is being built today. You can pick up these exceptionally well detailed models and stuff does not fall off like it did 30 years ago with Korean brass then.
Some of today's brass is being designed specifically so that operation on 24" radii is acceptable. They are smaller more compact engines like the Rock Island 2-8-2. So far it is the only recent run that the instructions say is good for 24", but I am sure the plethora of SP smaller steam will also do 24", which is below my radii.
John
Unfortunetly, they are not making many Boston and Maine or Maine Central prototypes in todays brass. And if they did, the price point would be extremely high (likely to relatively low volume seller anyway, so limited run with high price). No I am not trying to turn this into "this hobby is so expensive".
Ive decided to build what I cant buy. I think I can reverse engineer the plans in the MR articles (OCT 1997-May 1998), to create something close enough.
Oh by all means if you think you can build it then go ahead and post periodic updates so that others can see and be inspired and maybe try themselves. There is room for all of us.
Perhaps my many posts here are somewhat of a reaction to the perception that brass collectors are somehow not "real" model railroaders, not in your posts, but in others. There are folks like Howard Zane who just love brass and do "collect" it, yet at the same time he has an amazing layout where a hundred or more engines are required just to operate it. Howard's attitude is that everything is for sale if somebody only wants to pony up and pay the right price.
So it is not a crime, and I am not a model railroading heretic for desiring to buy the occasional model with the idea from the beginning being that I will hold it a couple years, play with it a little bit, and make a profit.That just makes me different from some.
PRR8259 Oh by all means if you think you can build it then go ahead and post periodic updates so that others can see and be inspired and maybe try themselves. There is room for all of us. Perhaps my many posts here are somewhat of a reaction to the perception that brass collectors are somehow not "real" model railroaders, not in your posts, but in others. There are folks like Howard Zane who just love brass and do "collect" it, yet at the same time he has an amazing layout where a hundred or more engines are required just to operate it. Howard's attitude is that everything is for sale if somebody only wants to pony up and pay the right price. So it is not a crime, and I am not a model railroading heretic for desiring to buy the occasional model with the idea from the beginning being that I will hold it a couple years, play with it a little bit, and make a profit.That just makes me different from some.
John, you don't have to keep defending your version of this hobby.
But, you are also not likely to sell many people on it either...........
There are great craftsman in this hobby who are also brass collectors.......and then there are those who are only brass collectors........and there are those who are at every possible place in between those two positions.
Personally, I'm not into serial ownership. To take it out of this hobby for a minute, serial ownership is the guy who buys a boat, uses it 3 seasons, looks at it in the yard for two more, sells it and buys a motorcycle, rides it for two seasons, puts it on the front yard and sells it. Uses the cash as a down payment on an RV, buys a 30-6, takes the RV on hunting trips.......for three seasons, sells the RV, lets the 30-6 get rusty in the back of the closet.......and so on.
Admittedly it is a life style choice I simply don't understand, but in the big picture, I don't care what others do with their money, but don't look for my praise or approval for each new purchase and adventure.......
That loco that you will sell off, I will keep and leave to my son, along with model railroad items his grandfather left me. My son was close to his grandfather before he passed away, I think my son will appreciate those things. He is not really a model railroader now, but he does have an interest in trains, hopefully he will be happy to have mine and my fathers stuff and pass it on to his son. If not, that's OK, it's only "stuff" and I have had lots of fun with it.
You have told us you are not really a model builder, that's fine. Others are, and that is their main focus in the hobby, not just what they can buy......
Another example - cars, I like cars, especially old ones, and fast ones. I have restored and built a few in my time. Built a '63 Nova convertible that would go 135 mph and do 14 sec in the 1/4 mile......when I was only 20. I have the skills to rebuild engines, do body work, etc. I will admit it is a hobby I have largely moved on from actual participation.
But, you introduce me to two guys, one has bought himself a brand new Corvette, the other has restored a 1958 Corvette with mostly his own hands......I will have more in common with the guy who restored the '58........even though I drive a new car that is pretty fast.
My fast new car, a 2015 FORD FLEX LIMITED with Eccoboost, 360 HP, twin turbos, 14 sec 1/4 mile, etc - but so what? Anybody with $50,000 can have one. I drive it because its design and comfort fits our personal needs, and because it is fast and fun and I have the money. I understand that most other people don't really care about my expensive high performance station wagon. I don't need or expect them to care.....if they do ask, I will explain my choice and why I like it so much......I don't need them to like it.
And when it comes to this hobby and other people, I am much more interested in the model building others are doing than in what they are buying........
Sheldon
Certainly I would have more respect for the vette restored by owners own hand.
I also appreciate fine models regardless of whose hands built them, even if built by little green aliens, and quite honestly the only scratchbuilt steam power I have ever seen in my entire life...well I can't name very many at all. John Glaab showed some early Japanese brass handbuilts, and they were neat, but usually not engines I had a particular interest in at the time.
Brasstrains has a neat NdeM engine, one of a kind, and the price on it is currently $1795. I think it is the late 4-8-4. It is very well done indeed.
Handbuilt pilot models? I have handled a few.
But truly scratchbuilt steam, has been rare. Kinda hard to appreciate what I can't see. Maybe some folks will post some photos?
Brass models are available not only in model raliroading, but also in ships, planes, automotive, heavy equipment...and have I missed any? Brass trains have never been marketed as mainstream except during the 60's and well into the mid 80's when PFM always had a full page ad on the rear cover of MR along with other importers in other magazines.......but always as an upgrade for afficiandos who appreciated them and who could afford brass. There is really no need to disuss the pros and cons of brass trains. Admittedly they are not for everyone and they were never meant to be.....sort of like anything of extrodinary quality be it housing, yachts, cars, jewelry, etc.
HZ
Howard Zane Brass models are available not only in model raliroading, but also in ships, planes, automotive, heavy equipment...and have I missed any? Brass trains have never been marketed as mainstream except during the 60's and well into the mid 80's when PFM always had a full page ad on the rear cover of MR along with other importers in other magazines.......but always as an upgrade for afficiandos who appreciated them and who could afford brass. There is really no need to disuss the pros and cons of brass trains. Admittedly they are not for everyone and they were never meant to be.....sort of like anything of extrodinary quality be it housing, yachts, cars, jewelry, etc. HZ
Howard, I agree completely. There is however what people can afford, should afford, and what they choose to afford. Clearly, if you saw any of the deleted posts, you know our host does not want us to go down that road.
John spends a lot of time on here "selling" the virtues of brass. I just play devils advocate, because as you say, it's not for everyone.
Being concerned with the future resale value of a model train would spoil that purchase and the hobby for me. The few brass locos I own have been modified, kit bashed, and freelance painted beyond any recognition of their original forms. Most of them now have Bachmann tenders..........
They would be of no value to me otherwise.
Yet in every conversation about some plastic/die cast loco, John reminds us how "cheap" they are and how brass would be a better "investment". At the risk of being censored again, my "investment" money is in real estate......
I live in a quality house built over 100 years ago, I drive nice cars, I own a superior quality garden tractor that still works perfectly after 20 years of service. I don't need any lectures on quality.
But I also understand the theory of deminishing returns as it applies to a lot of products in our culture........
Sometimes, the enemy of good is "better"........
One "inconvenient truth" is that I was pretty much forced into brass by what I perceived as the quality failings of some HO plastic. Without going down the road of singling out and trashing various manufacturers, I was simply not happy with what is readily available in rtr plastic form. Tried lots and lots of it and was unhappy. The reason I have traded so much is not that I like the hunt, as some assume, but that I was unhappy with the quality of plastic. I especially don't care for wavy fall off the body handrails. (Yes I fixed some by custom bending piano wire to replace them, but shouldn't have to do that all the time).
So quality has a price, and it may not be cheap, but I can actually be happy with the brass.
I never said brass was for everyone.
This thread was for thoughts about brass locomotives, right? So anyone who does not care or is otherwise not interested in brass...well nobody is holding a weapon to force them to read or contribute here.
I do wish there was a place for brass fans to hangout, and I would love to see more scratchbuilt or homebuilt brass models, from those who care to share them.
The NdeM handbuilt 4-8-4 over on brasstrains website is a beautiful model and worthy of appreciation.
Brass
Pros:
1. Heavier so will pull a lot of cars
2. Holds it's resale value well
3. Most accurate and usually most detailed for particular roads (Especially steam)
Cons:
1. Cost arm and leg for plastic that gets 95% of the same detail of plastic
2. More finicky with track. Operating radius typically much larger.
3. More delicate4. Typically requires more work to get to run on DCC w/sound
There are of course outliers to the above rules. (There always are.) But this is the general case.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Holds its resale value, not so, just ask anyone who invested in Crown, price dropped in half at one point, made a bit of a comeback since the low though.
Brass...........values? As a brass vendor for over 30 years, I rarely suggested to a client to buy brass as an investment.........only purchase because you want to own it. However, prior to 1997 (peak of brass activity) brass did appreciate including models of questionable quality. There were times I could purchase a large collection through lines of bank credit and pay off the entire amount just from the first two-three months of sales. Collectible and most desireable brass models are of steam prototypes. Each year we grow further away from interests in steam railroad modeling except for a few old dinosaurs such as myself who grew up with steam railroading.
As interests in historical modeling increase and prices of die-cast and plastic counterparts also increase, I predict brass modeling to make sort of a comeback..........but don't go out and purchase a ton of brass hoping it will rise considerably in value.
I was only talking a few pieces...that I plan to enjoy, play with, and maybe sell a few higher end pieces when my boys go to college if the cash is needed then.
I think that one issue with the PFM Crown models is just that as models, regardless of the motor in them, some of them are not nearly as nice as later models that have been done of the same engine. So now, besides the fact that the steam crowd who would or did buy them has diminished, the later models seem to be in more demand.
I am a bit surprised at how the prices of some of the "better" PFM models like L-131 articulateds continue to drop recently, yet there are others that still are holding a better percentage of their "maximum" price. Nobody is giving away PFM Crown Rio Grande 2-10-2's, but the M-75 4-8-2 seems to be a different story, and a noticeably better version of it was done. At one time their prices were more nearly "equal" depending on condition, etc. Now there is quite a difference there between the 2 Rio Grande steamers.
So I think it depends on the model in question and how many times it has been modeled, by what builders and importers--and who has a new version coming.
Brass...........values? As a brass vendor for over 30 years, I rarely suggested to a client to buy brass as an investment.........
Unless, of course, your desire is to end up with a small fortune after expending a big fortune.
I have a Westside GS-8 (ex Cotton Belt L1). Paid $135 for it in 1973. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics Inflation Calculator, it would have to sell for $738 just to keep up with inflation. Ain't going to happen. Street price varies between $375 and $450 depending on condition and whether or not painted. Westside only did a single run. It's not a common model. Still, it sells for around 60% or so of inflation adjusted retail. Definitely, not investment grade.
Now what was investment grade (say in 1999, or even better, 1997 when it was even cheaper) was a share of Apple stock. A single share sold for the split adusted amount of $1.38. Fast forward to today and that single share (after splits) is now 28 shares each with a market value as of today's close of $139.20 or a total market value of $5359.20, enough to buy 3 NdeM QR-1 models (if 3 were available) from BrassTrains.Com and still have change left over.
Andre
You'd be much better off buying an S&P 500 index fund like Vanguard's VFINX, or the ETF (Exchange Traded Fund) QQQ that also tracks the S&P 500. If you want to track the Dow, look into the SPDR Dow Jones Industrial Average ETF (DIA). Your money, your choice.
Thank you Andre. I am sure your example is more typical. There have been a few exceptions where for example a number of much newer W&R steamers actually do bring 3 or 4 times the original purchase price, but yes they are outliers.
What would you do if you determine you really like a particular model and you find one on ebay for about 57% of what it commonly sells for? Say it is the exact version you want. Do you pass it up and put that money somewhere else or do you try to get it thinking it looks like a reasonable deal on something you wanted anyway? Maybe you are religious about not paying a dime of credit card interest in a given year, but this one might cost all of about $3 in interest?
It is a 7 year old, new in box rare model, and you don't know when you might see one pop up again.
PRR8259 Thank you Andre. I am sure your example is more typical. There have been a few exceptions where for example a number of much newer W&R steamers actually do bring 3 or 4 times the original purchase price, but yes they are outliers. What would you do if you determine you really like a particular model and you find one on ebay for about 57% of what it commonly sells for? Say it is the exact version you want. Do you pass it up and put that money somewhere else or do you try to get it thinking it looks like a reasonable deal on something you wanted anyway? Maybe you are religious about not paying a dime of credit card interest in a given year, but this one might cost all of about $3 in interest? It is a 7 year old, new in box rare model, and you don't know when you might see one pop up again.
Well, for me, it would not matter if the model was brass or plastic or whatever. If it was a model I really wanted, which in my case means it plays an important role in the layout scheme, and if I had the CASH, I would buy it.
I would not buy a model train, or any other luxury of that type on any kind of borrowed money..........
In fact, a great many of my 130 plus loco fleet has been bought at prices well below market value. My dollar cost averaage for 130 powered units over the last 20 years is about $100 each. They include mostly higher end plastic/die cast models, Proto, Intermountain, Genesis, Spectrum, BLI.
And yes, most all my locos are from the last 20-25 years. For many years when I was younger I only had a few locos, a set of Athearn F7's that I remotored and detailed, and a few other pieces. When I could really afford model trains, I bought model trains.
But once I buy it, it is mine for life............in 99.9% of the cases.
In 47 years, I have sold off three locomotives, or locomotive sets.
One because Walthers made the model not to my correct era in the undecorated version - a set of Proto F7's.
One because I later decided to stay with only two brands of F units for the ATLANTIC CENTRAL, a set of BLI/PCM undecorated F3's originally purchased on closeout from FDT. They would have also required extensive rewiring.
One because I simply changed my mine about a specific rework/detailing project.
At times when I did not have extra money, I simply did not buy trains.....what a concept.
It can be difficult to budget when I can spend $150 in a weekend on just baseball lessons, or zero if the coaches are busy.
The model would fit my future plans well, or I wouldn't even be bidding (is beyond planned budget for this year, but my cash flow has been improved from what was projected). It actually is a new model specifically designed for 24" radius operation, according to the Importer's literature, which I found to be quite interesting. This would be because it is a relatively compact heavy mike. It also happens to be the most detailed steamer I've personally ever owned, as I have a sister in a coal version, so I'd be able to doublehead in plain DC, or have one front and rear of a train, which, once in awhile, is fun to do.
Also, you mentioned dollar cost averaging. At the much lower price point it would reduce the average price paid per steamer, which would be viewed by me as a positive. If someday I don't need it, great I can profit, but the engines I get are being run...maybe they get 8 or 10 hours of run time a month, per engine.
My days of big articulateds and heavy 50 car freights are behind me, though I do want a Rio Grande L-76 2-6-6-2 sometime when a good one is available...just because I always did and miss the Custom Brass one I once owned.
Last note on Brass as an investment. Today with 3-d printing, will come a time in the near future when you can have any model you want in lots of materials. To show you how fast things are moving in teck land, last year it was projected to have driverless cars approved in 5 to 7 years, now it may happen end of this year. A lot of the things we thought were rare will just be another trinket tomarrow. Heck, dimonds are made that are so good you have to laser inscibe real ones to tell the difference and the list of these things is begining to be endless. And Apple watch has 2.7 times the computing power of a Cray-2 super computer, think about that in terms of everything.
PRR8259 What would you do if you determine you really like a particular model and you find one on ebay for about 57% of what it commonly sells for? Say it is the exact version you want. Do you pass it up and put that money somewhere else or do you try to get it thinking it looks like a reasonable deal on something you wanted anyway? Maybe you are religious about not paying a dime of credit card interest in a given year, but this one might cost all of about $3 in interest?
That would depend on the price, John. Say I really...REALLY wanted a $250K Lamborghini. At 57% that would be $142,500 - plus tax and title. There's NO WAY I'm going to pay that much for a car when my 2008 Honda Civic* (w/188K on it) will still get me from Point A to Point B - just maybe not quite as fast.
*[More than likely I will end up driving my Civic into the ground rather than selling it. In the meantime I can save $$$ for a downpayment on a new or newer car when that time comes.]
In the brass locomotive realm: I would love to have a new DP NYC H-10a 2-8-2 Mike in my roster. Even at 57% ($1,140) I would still have to pass it up. And I'd be just as content without it as with it.
Bottom line: If it ain't in the budget; it ain't gonna happen - no matter what kinda deal I might get.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
A few random thoughts:
Baseball lessons? And I thought tap, jazz and ballet was expensive for the daughters and grand daughter.....Either luck and and tallent will take them to the majors, or it won't, lessons won't help.
Our children actually paid their own way through college, and not to go off topic, but I think college should be part of the public education system for anyone who performs well.
Cars - we buy new ones, but tend to keep them a good while. Seldom using financing. Bought a truck in 2000, finally replaced it last year. The old one had 240,000 miles, still ran good.
John, here is the thing I still find most interesting, not just about you, but about any number of people who post on these forums with product complaints.
I know that there are sometimes quality control issues with the mass produced products in this hobby. Again, I started working in the hobby shop and fixing trains in 1969.......I started in the hobby at age 10 with a Varney F3, PennLine GG1 and a Mantua Pacfic and Mikado.
But how is it that thousands of modelers have bought Bachmann Spectrum, BLI, Proto, Atlas, etc, and have generally successful experiances, but you have not had one happy such experiance?
I just don't get that.
Another topic - you mentioned double heading those two brass locos. I have a tripple header on my layout right now. A Proto 2-8-8-2, Spectrum 2-10-2, and a Spectrum 2-8-0, running just fine together on DC, pulling about 60 piggyback cars.
Still happy with all my relatively inexpensive plastic and white metal brainless model trains.
OK, many thoughts to respond to.
First I have a son who is only a B student, has learning disability and reads 2 grade levels below where he should be or more. He may not be college material. But he has baseball talent, and it is becoming clear that the more he works, the better he gets--in a hurry with pro coaching. Former professional baseball players make a huge difference in teaching that the average volunteer cannot match. My son now has excellent skills and technique, and in 9th grade just beat out a bunch of people who have been "above" him for years...He has worked 6 days a week on baseball with me and by himself for months...and I'll stop there.
Other son autistic but smart. Younger and shows undeveloped baseball talent.
The "rule of 10000 hours" states that with good practice, proper technique, and quality coaching, people become very proficient at their "craft" whether that be model making, woodworking, music performance, basketweaving, or baseball. It is essential to have proper mentoring, which costs.
Back to trains:
I had ok experiences with some plastic, but the engineer in me simply appreciates the fine artistry, detail and craftsmanship found in the better brass models.
Some people don't feel comfortable spending a grand on one locomotive or even if they did would be very afraid to just play with it. I was like that once, and was that way for many years too. Also, one can learn how to handle them so as not to even chip the paint when playing with them.
Now, I'm at a point where if I want to have a model of xyz, I want the best darn model I can possibly find, and price, so what, as long as I was able to make it work with the family budget...
Hope he makes it. On another note coaching can only do so much but if he has the drive, he can make it. People who make it ussually have one thing that helps them out and that is they keep at it till they make it, period. If he has that drive it dose not mater if he only has average skills at this point, he will proubly make it and from what you say, he has the drive!
My take on brass as an investment. It has passed its peak, for a variety of reasons - but it all comes out the same net result: demand is down, and will continue to drop. Which is exciting to me as one who could never afford brass at a younger age, and with only a few alternatives in HOn3. I now own 3 brass locos, and the most expensive was a PFM DSP&P Mason recently acquired for $200.
Like Post-War Lionel, the supply is diminishing, not increasing. But demand is dropping even faster. Current brass collectors and operators are dying off; and brass has been out of reach to the younger members of the hobby for so long that they don't even think about brass as an alternative to Blackstone (or similar products in standard gauge).
Making brass run as well as, and be as good as a Blackstone is not trivial, and usually costs $100-$200 in parts, materials, and tools. In that way, Blackstone has created a ceiling price on run-of-the-mill brass locomotives. Only new production that can exceed Blackstone in detail and running qualities can command a higher price (new PSC Shays).
just my thoughts
Fred W
....modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it's always 1900....
There does seem to be a glut of older, vintage, and middle of the road brass on the market. Some of those engines require TLC to run well, and others are Korean and 30 to 40 years old such that stuff may fall off while they run.
That is not the stuff I'm after. PSC has gone from being a middling quality importer to importing some really really fine steam power--not just Shays--but many of them. Many of their steamers seem to run pretty well out of the box, in very recent years.
Not being a narrow gauge aficionado, I'm after standard gauge PSC/Boo Rim steam that captures the "classic 1930's look" my eye finds appealing. SP 2-10-2's, 4-10-2's are appealing to me, as are UP 4-12-2's, and selected smaller steamers from other southwestern roads.
PRR8259 OK, many thoughts to respond to. First I have a son who is only a B student, has learning disability and reads 2 grade levels below where he should be or more. He may not be college material. But he has baseball talent, and it is becoming clear that the more he works, the better he gets--in a hurry with pro coaching. Former professional baseball players make a huge difference in teaching that the average volunteer cannot match. My son now has excellent skills and technique, and in 9th grade just beat out a bunch of people who have been "above" him for years...He has worked 6 days a week on baseball with me and by himself for months...and I'll stop there. Other son autistic but smart. Younger and shows undeveloped baseball talent. The "rule of 10000 hours" states that with good practice, proper technique, and quality coaching, people become very proficient at their "craft" whether that be model making, woodworking, music performance, basketweaving, or baseball. It is essential to have proper mentoring, which costs. Back to trains: I had ok experiences with some plastic, but the engineer in me simply appreciates the fine artistry, detail and craftsmanship found in the better brass models. Some people don't feel comfortable spending a grand on one locomotive or even if they did would be very afraid to just play with it. I was like that once, and was that way for many years too. Also, one can learn how to handle them so as not to even chip the paint when playing with them. Now, I'm at a point where if I want to have a model of xyz, I want the best darn model I can possibly find, and price, so what, as long as I was able to make it work with the family budget...
Well John, I'm not affraid to play with any of them, $100 or $1,000. I have a few I paid $400-$500 for (or in the case of diesels, $500 for the 4 unit set I use as one locomotive).
And I'm not affraid to take them apart, paint them ATLANTIC CENTRAL, modifiy them to my needs, etc.
BUT, I don't need to spend $1000 per steam loco to meet my goals......so I don't.
I'm an engineering type too, I design houses, heating systems, electrical systems, hifi speakers, invented tractor parts, designed engine mods for hot rods (and then built the engine), restored cars from the ground up.
But in my case, I have the interest and the skills to take that $100 or $200 loco, and fix its weak points, so it runs like $1000......
Again, different goals and needs.
PRR8259I do wish there was a place for brass fans to hangout,
I see there is going to be a Brass Expo in Wheeling, Illinois, November of this year. You can probably find a few like-minded people to hang out with there.
Sheldon,
I rebuilt Rivarossi articulateds years ago, with good success (we had all the parts on hand) and I was trained by a brass collector on how to properly disassemble an Overland Models diesel for tuning and minor adjustments to make them run better. Steam...I dont requarter drivers but leave that to pros and I was not an expert at "find the short".
Rivarossi drivers are notorious for rotating on the axle centers and becoming unquartered. It was easier and cheaper to replace axles back in the day...
But brass diesels just arent my particular need.
PRR8259 Sheldon, I rebuilt Rivarossi articulateds years ago, with good success (we had all the parts on hand) and I was trained by a brass collector on how to properly disassemble an Overland Models diesel for tuning and minor adjustments to make them run better. Steam...I dont requarter drivers but leave that to pros and I was not an expert at "find the short".
John, I understand, and I don't question your skills or knowledge, I know you have a strong background in the hobby like me.
My point is simply that I am willing, and actually take pleasure, in taking, for example, that "nearly perfect" Spectrum USRA Heavy Mountain and doing just a few small tweaks to make it an exceptional running loco.
And it happens to be a protoype for one of my roads of choice, the C&O, and is a logical choice for my freelanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
So why would I go searching for brass ones at $300 or $400 each, or more, which will still likely need work and painting, when I can have as many as I want for $100 to $150 each?
And in my opinion, the Spectrum J-2, or its USRA versions, is every bit as well detailed as most of the brass ones out there.
And, yes, the drive in a brass loco is very likely to last longer. But truth is, with 130 locos, I am unlikely to clock enough hours on any one loco to ever be concerned about that.
One more point, I have large curves and big turnouts, but I still like the idea of the split frame electrical design of modern mass produced steam locos over the electrically live frame of most brass - less chance for short circuits.....
The Spectrum model is heavy, smooth, pulls well, well detailed, easy to work on, came in a number of road specific versions and is/was afordable.....
I found them to need only the smallest adjustments to be top performers, extra tender weight and a small modification to the drawbar.
I have nine Spectrum USRA Heavy 4-8-2's, several in C&O and fleet for the ATLANTIC CENTRAL, for less than $1000 total.
I like the Bachmann EM -1 as the best steamer they have done to date, though can appreciate USRA "classic" appearance of other engines.
A special thank you to Howard and any others who held off bidding against me on a slightly unusual Precision Scale Boo Rim Rock Island 2-8-2. I actually won it for $655 less than the last one that myself and also someone else just bought. It is unusual in being "wrong box". It has an oil tender and box says coal tender, but loco itself is correct version for that particular box, with flashing red mars light.
Thanks to those who have helped me.
I consider it a bargain on something I wanted anyway...is ideal impressively compact engine for modest curves and I wanted oil version anyway.