Modeling steam even of such a "common" road like the Santa Fe is difficult if your space is restricted. Compounding the problem is the fact that the Santa Fe did not use the USRA standards; many of the offerings labeled "Santa Fe" are foobies. In "plastic", BLI has produced the 3751 class 4-8-4s and the 3800 class 2-10-2s and 2-10-4s. These are all rather large engines, and (even in "plastic") restricted to radii of 22" or more. The Bachmann Spectrum "Russian Decapod" 2-10-0, which is a beautiful little engine and runs on 18" radii, is a pretty good representation of three locos that the Santa Fe inherited from the KCMO; however, they did not stay on the roster for very long (only until 1936). Now, the Santa Fe community is eagerly awaiting the 4000 class 2-8-2s announced by BLI.
It seems to be counterintuitive, but if you model steam on the Santa Fe and are restricted in space, your best option might be brass. In 2004, Division Point produced 100 class 885 2-8-2s and some more (I tried to get the precise number from Jack Vansworth, the DP owner, but he was evasive) class 900 and 1600 2-10-2s. The 2-8-2s are handling 18" curves easily, the 2-10-2s run well on 22" curves. And of course, they all look gorgeous...
BMMECNYC fieryturbo ...stupid B-units are always brass, grumble, grumble.... Except for Bachmann, BLI, Athearn, Bowser, Intermountain...... so not always.
fieryturbo ...stupid B-units are always brass, grumble, grumble....
...stupid B-units are always brass, grumble, grumble....
Except for Bachmann, BLI, Athearn, Bowser, Intermountain...... so not always.
Also Rapido, Fox Valley, Walthers (Mainline and Proto).. Okay thats all the non-brass B units I could find in the 2017 Walthers Catalog.
Julian
Modeling Pre-WP merger UP (1974-81)
JOHN C TARANTO Beautiful model, Sheldon!
Beautiful model, Sheldon!
Thank you for the kind words John.
PS - And, the beauty of that locomotive is that I created it for the some total investment of about $175.00 - a result of careful shopping and luck.
PRR8259 Maybe Bachmann will improve and release C&O 1309???
Maybe Bachmann will improve and release C&O 1309???
I don't know what there would be to "improve", but they would have to make some detail changes to make an accurate 1309. The previous models are the H5 USRA design and the earlier H4 (with a few very small errors).
You have to give Bachmann credit for their efforts to offer variety, get reasonably close to prototype details, and offer affordable, good running models.
Have there been a few been duds or semi duds? Sure. Some brass are duds........
Is every Bachmann loco spot on for every roadname offered? No.
BUT, at least they can build a USRA Mikado and Pacific and change basic obvious details like trailing trucks, headlights, bells, tenders to get close. Are you listening BLI?
If you look at the Spectrum USRA/H4 2-6-6-2 (4 versions), USRA 4-8-2 Heavy (3 versions + options) and the USRA 2-10-2 Light (7 versions), they went to great lengths to offer a wide selection of proto correct versions, in roadnames seldom modeled at all in mass produced locos.
Similar facts are true of the Russian 2-10-0, 4-6-0, shays, K4's, etc.
But such efforts are ignored by many because it does not happen to be what they want..........
Even the "generic" but well detailed 2-8-0 had a stephenson valve gear version and number of different tenders when it was a Spectrum model.
And for those of us who kit bash or freelance, Bachmann has been a gold mine in the last 20 years.
Seperate tenders that interchange on many of their models, common parts that interchange from model to model, A parts department with well explained pictures and parts list online, and more.
Here is a perfect example, my ATLANTIC CENTRAL 2-6-6-2's (three of them) include Bachmann V16 tenders (offered seperately and on the 4-8-2H) and Delta trailing trucks also offered with later production 4-8-2H locos. Both the tender and the trailing truck transplanted to the 2-6-6-2 without needing any modifications.
Just one of many such projects.
I have used Bachmann tenders behind countless other locos to, in my case, provide a family look to the ATLANTIC CENTRAL fleet, including some brass and a number of BLI locos.
Enough for now,
Sheldon
I like the Bachmann EM -1 as the best steamer they have done to date, though can appreciate USRA "classic" appearance of other engines.
A special thank you to Howard and any others who held off bidding against me on a slightly unusual Precision Scale Boo Rim Rock Island 2-8-2. I actually won it for $655 less than the last one that myself and also someone else just bought. It is unusual in being "wrong box". It has an oil tender and box says coal tender, but loco itself is correct version for that particular box, with flashing red mars light.
Thanks to those who have helped me.
I consider it a bargain on something I wanted anyway...is ideal impressively compact engine for modest curves and I wanted oil version anyway.
John
PRR8259 Sheldon, I rebuilt Rivarossi articulateds years ago, with good success (we had all the parts on hand) and I was trained by a brass collector on how to properly disassemble an Overland Models diesel for tuning and minor adjustments to make them run better. Steam...I dont requarter drivers but leave that to pros and I was not an expert at "find the short".
Sheldon,
I rebuilt Rivarossi articulateds years ago, with good success (we had all the parts on hand) and I was trained by a brass collector on how to properly disassemble an Overland Models diesel for tuning and minor adjustments to make them run better. Steam...I dont requarter drivers but leave that to pros and I was not an expert at "find the short".
John, I understand, and I don't question your skills or knowledge, I know you have a strong background in the hobby like me.
My point is simply that I am willing, and actually take pleasure, in taking, for example, that "nearly perfect" Spectrum USRA Heavy Mountain and doing just a few small tweaks to make it an exceptional running loco.
And it happens to be a protoype for one of my roads of choice, the C&O, and is a logical choice for my freelanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL.
So why would I go searching for brass ones at $300 or $400 each, or more, which will still likely need work and painting, when I can have as many as I want for $100 to $150 each?
And in my opinion, the Spectrum J-2, or its USRA versions, is every bit as well detailed as most of the brass ones out there.
And, yes, the drive in a brass loco is very likely to last longer. But truth is, with 130 locos, I am unlikely to clock enough hours on any one loco to ever be concerned about that.
One more point, I have large curves and big turnouts, but I still like the idea of the split frame electrical design of modern mass produced steam locos over the electrically live frame of most brass - less chance for short circuits.....
The Spectrum model is heavy, smooth, pulls well, well detailed, easy to work on, came in a number of road specific versions and is/was afordable.....
I found them to need only the smallest adjustments to be top performers, extra tender weight and a small modification to the drawbar.
I have nine Spectrum USRA Heavy 4-8-2's, several in C&O and fleet for the ATLANTIC CENTRAL, for less than $1000 total.
Rivarossi drivers are notorious for rotating on the axle centers and becoming unquartered. It was easier and cheaper to replace axles back in the day...
But brass diesels just arent my particular need.
PRR8259I do wish there was a place for brass fans to hangout,
I see there is going to be a Brass Expo in Wheeling, Illinois, November of this year. You can probably find a few like-minded people to hang out with there.
PRR8259 OK, many thoughts to respond to. First I have a son who is only a B student, has learning disability and reads 2 grade levels below where he should be or more. He may not be college material. But he has baseball talent, and it is becoming clear that the more he works, the better he gets--in a hurry with pro coaching. Former professional baseball players make a huge difference in teaching that the average volunteer cannot match. My son now has excellent skills and technique, and in 9th grade just beat out a bunch of people who have been "above" him for years...He has worked 6 days a week on baseball with me and by himself for months...and I'll stop there. Other son autistic but smart. Younger and shows undeveloped baseball talent. The "rule of 10000 hours" states that with good practice, proper technique, and quality coaching, people become very proficient at their "craft" whether that be model making, woodworking, music performance, basketweaving, or baseball. It is essential to have proper mentoring, which costs. Back to trains: I had ok experiences with some plastic, but the engineer in me simply appreciates the fine artistry, detail and craftsmanship found in the better brass models. Some people don't feel comfortable spending a grand on one locomotive or even if they did would be very afraid to just play with it. I was like that once, and was that way for many years too. Also, one can learn how to handle them so as not to even chip the paint when playing with them. Now, I'm at a point where if I want to have a model of xyz, I want the best darn model I can possibly find, and price, so what, as long as I was able to make it work with the family budget...
OK, many thoughts to respond to.
First I have a son who is only a B student, has learning disability and reads 2 grade levels below where he should be or more. He may not be college material. But he has baseball talent, and it is becoming clear that the more he works, the better he gets--in a hurry with pro coaching. Former professional baseball players make a huge difference in teaching that the average volunteer cannot match. My son now has excellent skills and technique, and in 9th grade just beat out a bunch of people who have been "above" him for years...He has worked 6 days a week on baseball with me and by himself for months...and I'll stop there.
Other son autistic but smart. Younger and shows undeveloped baseball talent.
The "rule of 10000 hours" states that with good practice, proper technique, and quality coaching, people become very proficient at their "craft" whether that be model making, woodworking, music performance, basketweaving, or baseball. It is essential to have proper mentoring, which costs.
Back to trains:
I had ok experiences with some plastic, but the engineer in me simply appreciates the fine artistry, detail and craftsmanship found in the better brass models.
Some people don't feel comfortable spending a grand on one locomotive or even if they did would be very afraid to just play with it. I was like that once, and was that way for many years too. Also, one can learn how to handle them so as not to even chip the paint when playing with them.
Now, I'm at a point where if I want to have a model of xyz, I want the best darn model I can possibly find, and price, so what, as long as I was able to make it work with the family budget...
Well John, I'm not affraid to play with any of them, $100 or $1,000. I have a few I paid $400-$500 for (or in the case of diesels, $500 for the 4 unit set I use as one locomotive).
And I'm not affraid to take them apart, paint them ATLANTIC CENTRAL, modifiy them to my needs, etc.
BUT, I don't need to spend $1000 per steam loco to meet my goals......so I don't.
I'm an engineering type too, I design houses, heating systems, electrical systems, hifi speakers, invented tractor parts, designed engine mods for hot rods (and then built the engine), restored cars from the ground up.
But in my case, I have the interest and the skills to take that $100 or $200 loco, and fix its weak points, so it runs like $1000......
Again, different goals and needs.
There does seem to be a glut of older, vintage, and middle of the road brass on the market. Some of those engines require TLC to run well, and others are Korean and 30 to 40 years old such that stuff may fall off while they run.
That is not the stuff I'm after. PSC has gone from being a middling quality importer to importing some really really fine steam power--not just Shays--but many of them. Many of their steamers seem to run pretty well out of the box, in very recent years.
Not being a narrow gauge aficionado, I'm after standard gauge PSC/Boo Rim steam that captures the "classic 1930's look" my eye finds appealing. SP 2-10-2's, 4-10-2's are appealing to me, as are UP 4-12-2's, and selected smaller steamers from other southwestern roads.
My take on brass as an investment. It has passed its peak, for a variety of reasons - but it all comes out the same net result: demand is down, and will continue to drop. Which is exciting to me as one who could never afford brass at a younger age, and with only a few alternatives in HOn3. I now own 3 brass locos, and the most expensive was a PFM DSP&P Mason recently acquired for $200.
Like Post-War Lionel, the supply is diminishing, not increasing. But demand is dropping even faster. Current brass collectors and operators are dying off; and brass has been out of reach to the younger members of the hobby for so long that they don't even think about brass as an alternative to Blackstone (or similar products in standard gauge).
Making brass run as well as, and be as good as a Blackstone is not trivial, and usually costs $100-$200 in parts, materials, and tools. In that way, Blackstone has created a ceiling price on run-of-the-mill brass locomotives. Only new production that can exceed Blackstone in detail and running qualities can command a higher price (new PSC Shays).
just my thoughts
Fred W
....modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it's always 1900....
Hope he makes it. On another note coaching can only do so much but if he has the drive, he can make it. People who make it ussually have one thing that helps them out and that is they keep at it till they make it, period. If he has that drive it dose not mater if he only has average skills at this point, he will proubly make it and from what you say, he has the drive!
A few random thoughts:
Baseball lessons? And I thought tap, jazz and ballet was expensive for the daughters and grand daughter.....Either luck and and tallent will take them to the majors, or it won't, lessons won't help.
Our children actually paid their own way through college, and not to go off topic, but I think college should be part of the public education system for anyone who performs well.
Cars - we buy new ones, but tend to keep them a good while. Seldom using financing. Bought a truck in 2000, finally replaced it last year. The old one had 240,000 miles, still ran good.
John, here is the thing I still find most interesting, not just about you, but about any number of people who post on these forums with product complaints.
I know that there are sometimes quality control issues with the mass produced products in this hobby. Again, I started working in the hobby shop and fixing trains in 1969.......I started in the hobby at age 10 with a Varney F3, PennLine GG1 and a Mantua Pacfic and Mikado.
But how is it that thousands of modelers have bought Bachmann Spectrum, BLI, Proto, Atlas, etc, and have generally successful experiances, but you have not had one happy such experiance?
I just don't get that.
Another topic - you mentioned double heading those two brass locos. I have a tripple header on my layout right now. A Proto 2-8-8-2, Spectrum 2-10-2, and a Spectrum 2-8-0, running just fine together on DC, pulling about 60 piggyback cars.
Still happy with all my relatively inexpensive plastic and white metal brainless model trains.
PRR8259 What would you do if you determine you really like a particular model and you find one on ebay for about 57% of what it commonly sells for? Say it is the exact version you want. Do you pass it up and put that money somewhere else or do you try to get it thinking it looks like a reasonable deal on something you wanted anyway? Maybe you are religious about not paying a dime of credit card interest in a given year, but this one might cost all of about $3 in interest?
What would you do if you determine you really like a particular model and you find one on ebay for about 57% of what it commonly sells for? Say it is the exact version you want. Do you pass it up and put that money somewhere else or do you try to get it thinking it looks like a reasonable deal on something you wanted anyway? Maybe you are religious about not paying a dime of credit card interest in a given year, but this one might cost all of about $3 in interest?
That would depend on the price, John. Say I really...REALLY wanted a $250K Lamborghini. At 57% that would be $142,500 - plus tax and title. There's NO WAY I'm going to pay that much for a car when my 2008 Honda Civic* (w/188K on it) will still get me from Point A to Point B - just maybe not quite as fast.
*[More than likely I will end up driving my Civic into the ground rather than selling it. In the meantime I can save $$$ for a downpayment on a new or newer car when that time comes.]
In the brass locomotive realm: I would love to have a new DP NYC H-10a 2-8-2 Mike in my roster. Even at 57% ($1,140) I would still have to pass it up. And I'd be just as content without it as with it.
Bottom line: If it ain't in the budget; it ain't gonna happen - no matter what kinda deal I might get.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Last note on Brass as an investment. Today with 3-d printing, will come a time in the near future when you can have any model you want in lots of materials. To show you how fast things are moving in teck land, last year it was projected to have driverless cars approved in 5 to 7 years, now it may happen end of this year. A lot of the things we thought were rare will just be another trinket tomarrow. Heck, dimonds are made that are so good you have to laser inscibe real ones to tell the difference and the list of these things is begining to be endless. And Apple watch has 2.7 times the computing power of a Cray-2 super computer, think about that in terms of everything.
It can be difficult to budget when I can spend $150 in a weekend on just baseball lessons, or zero if the coaches are busy.
The model would fit my future plans well, or I wouldn't even be bidding (is beyond planned budget for this year, but my cash flow has been improved from what was projected). It actually is a new model specifically designed for 24" radius operation, according to the Importer's literature, which I found to be quite interesting. This would be because it is a relatively compact heavy mike. It also happens to be the most detailed steamer I've personally ever owned, as I have a sister in a coal version, so I'd be able to doublehead in plain DC, or have one front and rear of a train, which, once in awhile, is fun to do.
Also, you mentioned dollar cost averaging. At the much lower price point it would reduce the average price paid per steamer, which would be viewed by me as a positive. If someday I don't need it, great I can profit, but the engines I get are being run...maybe they get 8 or 10 hours of run time a month, per engine.
My days of big articulateds and heavy 50 car freights are behind me, though I do want a Rio Grande L-76 2-6-6-2 sometime when a good one is available...just because I always did and miss the Custom Brass one I once owned.
PRR8259 Thank you Andre. I am sure your example is more typical. There have been a few exceptions where for example a number of much newer W&R steamers actually do bring 3 or 4 times the original purchase price, but yes they are outliers. What would you do if you determine you really like a particular model and you find one on ebay for about 57% of what it commonly sells for? Say it is the exact version you want. Do you pass it up and put that money somewhere else or do you try to get it thinking it looks like a reasonable deal on something you wanted anyway? Maybe you are religious about not paying a dime of credit card interest in a given year, but this one might cost all of about $3 in interest? It is a 7 year old, new in box rare model, and you don't know when you might see one pop up again.
Thank you Andre. I am sure your example is more typical. There have been a few exceptions where for example a number of much newer W&R steamers actually do bring 3 or 4 times the original purchase price, but yes they are outliers.
It is a 7 year old, new in box rare model, and you don't know when you might see one pop up again.
Well, for me, it would not matter if the model was brass or plastic or whatever. If it was a model I really wanted, which in my case means it plays an important role in the layout scheme, and if I had the CASH, I would buy it.
I would not buy a model train, or any other luxury of that type on any kind of borrowed money..........
In fact, a great many of my 130 plus loco fleet has been bought at prices well below market value. My dollar cost averaage for 130 powered units over the last 20 years is about $100 each. They include mostly higher end plastic/die cast models, Proto, Intermountain, Genesis, Spectrum, BLI.
And yes, most all my locos are from the last 20-25 years. For many years when I was younger I only had a few locos, a set of Athearn F7's that I remotored and detailed, and a few other pieces. When I could really afford model trains, I bought model trains.
But once I buy it, it is mine for life............in 99.9% of the cases.
In 47 years, I have sold off three locomotives, or locomotive sets.
One because Walthers made the model not to my correct era in the undecorated version - a set of Proto F7's.
One because I later decided to stay with only two brands of F units for the ATLANTIC CENTRAL, a set of BLI/PCM undecorated F3's originally purchased on closeout from FDT. They would have also required extensive rewiring.
One because I simply changed my mine about a specific rework/detailing project.
At times when I did not have extra money, I simply did not buy trains.....what a concept.
I was only talking a few pieces...that I plan to enjoy, play with, and maybe sell a few higher end pieces when my boys go to college if the cash is needed then.
You'd be much better off buying an S&P 500 index fund like Vanguard's VFINX, or the ETF (Exchange Traded Fund) QQQ that also tracks the S&P 500. If you want to track the Dow, look into the SPDR Dow Jones Industrial Average ETF (DIA). Your money, your choice.
Andre
Brass...........values? As a brass vendor for over 30 years, I rarely suggested to a client to buy brass as an investment.........
Unless, of course, your desire is to end up with a small fortune after expending a big fortune.
I have a Westside GS-8 (ex Cotton Belt L1). Paid $135 for it in 1973. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics Inflation Calculator, it would have to sell for $738 just to keep up with inflation. Ain't going to happen. Street price varies between $375 and $450 depending on condition and whether or not painted. Westside only did a single run. It's not a common model. Still, it sells for around 60% or so of inflation adjusted retail. Definitely, not investment grade.
Now what was investment grade (say in 1999, or even better, 1997 when it was even cheaper) was a share of Apple stock. A single share sold for the split adusted amount of $1.38. Fast forward to today and that single share (after splits) is now 28 shares each with a market value as of today's close of $139.20 or a total market value of $5359.20, enough to buy 3 NdeM QR-1 models (if 3 were available) from BrassTrains.Com and still have change left over.
I think that one issue with the PFM Crown models is just that as models, regardless of the motor in them, some of them are not nearly as nice as later models that have been done of the same engine. So now, besides the fact that the steam crowd who would or did buy them has diminished, the later models seem to be in more demand.
I am a bit surprised at how the prices of some of the "better" PFM models like L-131 articulateds continue to drop recently, yet there are others that still are holding a better percentage of their "maximum" price. Nobody is giving away PFM Crown Rio Grande 2-10-2's, but the M-75 4-8-2 seems to be a different story, and a noticeably better version of it was done. At one time their prices were more nearly "equal" depending on condition, etc. Now there is quite a difference there between the 2 Rio Grande steamers.
So I think it depends on the model in question and how many times it has been modeled, by what builders and importers--and who has a new version coming.
Brass...........values? As a brass vendor for over 30 years, I rarely suggested to a client to buy brass as an investment.........only purchase because you want to own it. However, prior to 1997 (peak of brass activity) brass did appreciate including models of questionable quality. There were times I could purchase a large collection through lines of bank credit and pay off the entire amount just from the first two-three months of sales. Collectible and most desireable brass models are of steam prototypes. Each year we grow further away from interests in steam railroad modeling except for a few old dinosaurs such as myself who grew up with steam railroading.
As interests in historical modeling increase and prices of die-cast and plastic counterparts also increase, I predict brass modeling to make sort of a comeback..........but don't go out and purchase a ton of brass hoping it will rise considerably in value.
HZ
Holds its resale value, not so, just ask anyone who invested in Crown, price dropped in half at one point, made a bit of a comeback since the low though.
Brass
Pros:
1. Heavier so will pull a lot of cars
2. Holds it's resale value well
3. Most accurate and usually most detailed for particular roads (Especially steam)
Cons:
1. Cost arm and leg for plastic that gets 95% of the same detail of plastic
2. More finicky with track. Operating radius typically much larger.
3. More delicate4. Typically requires more work to get to run on DCC w/sound
There are of course outliers to the above rules. (There always are.) But this is the general case.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!