Um, where did I get the idea of Propane freezing? Ah,Local News reports, and national news report. Yeah. Last winter. In February, when we here had the water running all month long to keep the water pipes from freezing...
Cold Exterior Temperatures
Extremely cold weather may also cause propane tanks to freeze. When exterior temperatures are very cold, the pressure in a propane tank lowers. Lower pressure causes the temperature of the propane to fall, slowing the flow of propane. This can also cause freezing in the propane tank.
Could be the type of installation. For example, when I had propane for heat in the late 90s, the tanks were installed 6' from t he house, as the heating vent was there, where they COULD have put them. The tanks were sent to the house via a copper piping buried only 2" in the ground, so little ground on top. I had to re-bury it the following spring as it heaved upwards. But it was warmer by far than these last two winters have beeen here...
SO, maybe with a copper tube piping so close to the surface, it can freeze?
Also, maybe, there are different "blends" meant for different climes, like gasoline is winter/summer blends...to keep it from "freezing".
here are several sites about "freezing propane":
http://blog.powerblanket.com/how-can-i-prevent-my-propane-tank-from-freezing
http://www.propane101.com/propaneregulatorfreezing.htm
http://www.ehow.com/about_6659739_cold-affect-propane-tanks_.html
here's another bit:
Q: It's in the 20's here, with about a foot of snow (very unusual for western Washington), and I just went out to my cold cold garage to make some beads, but my propane tank won't fire up. Does anyone know if propane will freeze? I didn't think gasses did, but what do I know? I've never had this trouble before.
A:Yes your tank sure will freeze. Your tank may be full, but if it's cold outside it will not allow the propane to flow. To give you an idea: a 100 lb propane tank will not even keep a pilot light lit in freezing temperatures.Propane is used in below zero temperatures, but the tank must be heated (or kept warm) in order for the propane to flow.What you need is a tank heater and they are available at stores like Home Depot. Look for a tank heater that is equipped with a thermostat that will shut off when it reaches a certain temperature.
...you may be dealing with low pressure or the regulator is at fault. While the propane may not freeze, the regulators we use may not be so hardy in the cold (especially if any moisture has gotten into them through condensation or other means). Some folks have used heating pads, electric blankets, putting the propane in a bucket with a lightbulb, and other manner of warming the tank and/or regulator to keep things flowing freely in the colder times.
Thats where. perhaps the last bit above is it.
Then there is the regulator..it too can freeze. If the flow is not maintained.
http://www.uaf.edu/files/ces/publications-db/catalog/eeh/EEM-04955.pdf
http://www.documentation.emersonprocess.com/groups/public/documents/bulletins/d450146t012.pdf
PS: i am sure in the Great White North of Canada, or in hte norhtern territories of Minn., N/S. Dakota, etc, THEY may have DIFFERENT methods for the propane keeping and delivery system to keep such problems form happening like HERE and elsewhere where it usually does NOT go below 10 or 0F and STAYS there day and night for days on end.
Dunno
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Good Morning!
Just a short stop here, as I am on my way to see a doc. I have developed bad respiratory problems over the weekend which need to be checked upon.
Not being able to breathe properly is scary!
CU!
Sir Madog Good Morning! Just a short stop here, as I am on my way to see a doc. I have developed bad respiratory problems over the weekend which need to be checked upon. Not being able to breathe properly is scary! CU!
Yes it is! I had a very very very bad case of pneumonia and spent 3 weeks in the hospital, about 5 years ago, i could barely breath with pulseox at 65% {until I was deep into a coughing spasm, then it's rise mysteriously to 95%, which the respiratory therapist said was "normal" when one coughs it goes Up, even though one feels it goes down.}
sorry you cannot seem to catch a break!
Heres hoping you can survive quickly with just a shot of antibiotics.
galaxyI had a very very very bad case of pneumonia
I am just back from the doc and yes, Galaxy, your diagnosis is correct - it´s pneumonia. I got an IV bag of antibiotics and have to continue with pills now.
.. and the doc said I urgently need to cut down on food to lose weight
Sir Madog galaxy I had a very very very bad case of pneumonia .. and the doc said I urgently need to cut down on food to lose weight
galaxy I had a very very very bad case of pneumonia
I resemble that remark!
I gained all 26 lbs i lost in January/feburary already.
Trying to take only high fiber ceral for breakfast, and a salad for lunch/snack. picked up some diet "shakes" for the snack too, the other day.
It will be hard for you if Petra is as good a cook as you say!
GM, MEN!
Today's word:
Mornin' everyone!
Zoe, I will have a Breakfast Bagel with Canadian Bacon and cheese along with a large pot of Marrakesh Express Dark Roast Coffee in my R&GVRR Mug. Thank you Ma'am!
(deep breath...) Galaxy, Galaxy, Galaxy...... (shakes head.) First off, turn off Faux News. They have no idea what they are talking about.... Second, most of the examples you mentioned were about small (1 to 20 lb.) containers of propane. Propane doesn't freeze. (well, it does at -310°F) Propane stops boiling at -44°F and at around -40°F it can't boil fast enough to produce usable pressure. That is not going to happen in the Bingo Area! Stop being a Worry Wart... You will likely have a 500 gal. tank of propane (2120lbs.). Yes, there are rare problems with water somehow getting into the tank and that can freeze. That is exceedingly rare and if the tank is prepared properly it will never happen. The most likely source of problem is the regulator (the little copper tubing doesn't need to be buried at all). When a regulator stops working, the person from the propane dealership will come out, look at it for a while and then use a hammer and give the side of the regulator a sharp whack. 99 times out of hundred the regulator starts working again and the problem is solved after you pay a couple hundred $$$ to the propane dealership for fixing the problem.
I would be far more concerned that when your electric goes out, none of the gas (any gas including NG) appliances will operate until the power is restored. You would have that problem with any new homes no matter what the fuel. Furnaces must have electric to fire and run, even stoves will not operate today if the power goes off. If you really want to be protected get a sine wave converter that can run off your car and some extention cords. I have several back up systems here for most any emergency. Used to have the wood stove... Now I have an inverter that can run off the PiP that is large enough to power the refrigerator and a couple other appliances, kerosine lanterns for light and lots of candles. Of course if I have a full tank of gasoline in the PiP I could run the nessesities at home for about 2 weeks on the 10 gal. of gas it has (it has been done! The PiP can do that much more efficiently than other cars). I usually have three 20lb. bottles of propane and a major amount of camping equipment for cooking and heat (yes I know they shouldn't be used inside the house, but if my other option is freezing to death..... I also know about proper ventilation and such!)
OK, on to other business. Ulrich, Wow! You sure have bad luck my friend. Hope the antibiotics knock the pneumonia out of you fast. Losing wieght can be be a real problem with all the other things going on. I have been lucky enough to have lost about 35 lbs over the last several years and keep it off. i am now hanging around 250lbs. and need to lose another 30 or so to get back down to what I weighed in college.
Will be spending part of the afternoon watching my Granddaughters while my son has a job interview. On Wednesday I will be doing the same thing but the girls will be here at my house. Sun is trying to peek out from behind the clouds for a while. supposed to have a few thunderboomers this afternoon. No problem, we need a bit of moisture now.
Catch you all later!
73
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
Edit: It looks like Ray and I were on the same page. He just pressed the "Post" key before I did.
The engineer in me has to weigh in on the frozen propane discussion.
I think there is some confusion with a term. The term "freeze" is often used to mean "when water goes from liquid to a solid state." Consequently, a "freezing temperature" is often synonymous with 0C or 32F. So is it possible for a propane tank to freeze? The correct answer is that the tank is already “frozen,” in that it is in a solid state. The next question is, can the propane in tank “freeze,” and the answer is, yes, if the temperature drops to -187.7C or -306F. At that point, I think the frozen propane would be the least of your worries. A better question would be, at what point is propane no longer a viable fuel, and the answer would be, as the temperature nears -42C or -34F. At this temperature, the propane will change from a gas to a liquid and the delivery and consumption system in the home will no longer work. So, is there a potential problem before the temperature gets that low? The answer here is an unequivocal “maybe.” The problem will not be with the propane, but with the delivery system. Back to the traditional usage of “freeze.” In as much as there is a possibility of water contamination in the delivery system, typically a result of condensation, if that water freezes in the regulator or in the lines there is a problem. So, is propane a viable fuel source in temperatures below 0C or 32F? Yes, as long as precautions are taken to prevent the compromise of the delivery system.
Richard
swiiiiiisssssshhhhhh Duck everyone !!!! Wiz bang
Oh itys Howmus light off more rockets
Howmus - Cool video. I was surprised to see so much N&W equipment in the line. Thanks for sharing
Ken - Dont worry about my view. It does not bother me and I understand. You are taking steps to improve your property that should be all that matters to you. Did you read my email reply ?
Ulrich I hope you feel better.
Cardo test Friday seemed to went okay. Another test this Friday and then off to see the doc to find out what they discovered.
To all the rest hello Garry, Line, Up831, Galaxy.........
TTYL
YGW
yougottawantaUlrich I hope you feel better.
I am afraid not.
Aside from the physical aspects of pneumonia, I have got the blues real bad. How much more have I to cope with? It´s been enough already.
Happy Lunch Hour Diners,
Last weekend MOH and I went back down to Indy to volunteer at the race track for church fund raiser. This event was the Red Bull GP European style motorcycle race. Really wild to watch these guys scraping their knees and elbows on the pavement as they lean into the turns. They have thick pads on their knees and elbows, so it's intentional. Anyway, we are done volunteering for the year.
Galaxy: I looked at plan #3. The only two things I don't like about it are that when one enters the front door, they look straight into the bathroom. Fortunately that can easily be fixed. The other thing is that i like the kitchen, but the layout is a U shape with the peninsula being the dine in lounge area. This means that one is required to walk around the peninsula to go in or out of the kitchen. But, that's really a small problem. Another detractor is the water heater in that location. Again, not a major problem and can be worked with. Plan #3 Shows a little of what I was talking about in my last post in reference to fridge placement. However, that looks like a hard wall with a bifold door pantry. We can make that a pantry cabinet for yes, more money, but a much more cohesive looking space. Of the three, I like #3 the best.
Plan #1 is good, but I have big issues with a range directly adjacent to a fridge. If the long wall could be moved one to one and a half feet to the right the plan will work much better as configured. There needs to be a minimum of 12" between e fridge and the range in the current configuration. Yes, I've done it with less distance between them, but only as a "no other possibility" option.
The fortunate thing is that anything is much easier to move or reconfigure in the planning stage.
anyway that's my 2cents.
i hope everyone is ok and safe.
Jim (with a nod to Mies Van Der Rohe)
Sir Madog Aside from the physical aspects of pneumonia, I have got the blues real bad. How much more have I to cope with? It´s been enough already.
from Saskatchewan, in the Great White North..
We have met the enemy, and he is us............ (Pogo)
cudaken:
Love the picture of the two Monon F's. Did you take it; or do you know where it was taken? I have developed an interest in the Monon; as my son goes to Purdue, and we are in West Lafayette occasionally.
Uhlrich:
Hope you get better, sooner than later.
Evenin' folks!
Chloe, I'll just be munching on leftovers from my son's house last night, but could use a big mug of decaf to go along with it.
Thought you all might enjoy some news footage from a Batavia, NY newspaper on the NPR #765 run last weekend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slko2-dlAg8
There is a great shot of the train crossing the bridge taken from the bottom of the gorge below. Will let you know just how high the bridge is.....
Ray!
Thank you for sharing that wonderful video!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
howmus https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slko2-dlAg8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slko2-dlAg8
Thank you! I enjoyed watching that.
Happy modeling all.
Regards,
Don.
"Ladies and gentlemen, I have some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that both engines have failed, and we will be stuck here for some time. The good news is that you decided to take the train and not fly."
Janie, I could use one more refill for the decaf, please....
Thank you guys. Glad you enjoyed the video clips.
Raining here in the Finger Lakes with some communities just to the North West being under flood wrnings. Just South of Rochester they had 2" of rain in a bout an hour or so this afternoon. Ae should have no such problem here where I am but will get some heavy rain around midnight.
I do hope that Galaxy has battened down the hatches as it looks klike some really nasty heavy stuff will be going right over where he lives very soon! Stay safe!!!
I guess it is time to shut down and head to bed for the night. Hope all of you have a great night! Prayers for all in need!!!
Evening Dinners
Flo, give Tin Can and I
Tin Can The photo was taken in Carmel Ind where I am from. I really like the Mono and have around 8 of there engines on my layout.
Ulrich Hope you get better soon and give Petra my best.
What is stonger, concrete or cement? I am hoping to build a concrete block wall and fill the insides with one of the above.
YGW I will be calling you either Tuesday or Wednesday if that is Ok?
Galaxy, I have been enjoying your qoutes.
Big News Of The Day. I been getting pre-approved Master Card offers from Capital One, today I went on line and was approved for a $1000.00 card. Main reason I am happy, it means my credit ratting is getting better! With some luck I can get away from Bank Of Stuipd that holds my home loan! I swear, if Bank Of America was a single person I would have killed them by now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Told my wife to be onthe look out for the charge card so she would not throw it away. First thing she said was "Don't run to K-10 Model Trains and buy something!" That got me PO'ed, first thing I was plain to do is buy her car some tires so she does not kill her self? Funny, K-10 seems like a good idea after that comment!
Best to all and latter.
Cuda Ken
For Tin Can
I hate Rust
Flo, another round for Cuda Ken & I!
Cuda:
Another great photo. I just bought an Athearn Genesis F3A&B painted in Monon's black and gold freight scheme. I am going to do something a little bit different with them. I have found material online about Monon's F unit roster; there was a group of F3's that ended at 64C. There is a 65C on the roster that I believe is a wreck replacement. Anyway, I am renumbering these models to 66A & 66C as sort of a tribute to my son, who is #66 on the football team. Also, one his best friends on the team is from Carmel.
I am quickly stopping in as I have early appt. wiht Mental HEalth Therapist at 9am, and hten go see my father,
It has rained all night, and mY BACK is killing me telling me all about the rain...
Pain pain pain... slow to move today..
later
Good morning, everybody ....
tin can Flo, another round for Cuda Ken & I! Cuda: Another great photo. I just bought an Athearn Genesis F3A&B painted in Monon's black and gold freight scheme. I am going to do something a little bit different with them. I have found material online about Monon's F unit roster; there was a group of F3's that ended at 64C. There is a 65C on the roster that I believe is a wreck replacement. Anyway, I am renumbering these models to 66A & 66C as sort of a tribute to my son, who is #66 on the football team. Also, one his best friends on the team is from Carmel.
Tin Can .... Good to see you in the Diner. .... There is a Monon BL2 alive and well in the Kentucky Railway Museum. .... I have a Genesis F3 A&B too, but painted and lettered for CB&Q. I definately like it. ... Your post mentions Tin Can as part of the MKT. Do you also model MKT ?
Ken ... Nice photo of the BL2 ... Some people don't like the looks of the BL2, but I like it.
Ray .... I like the video of NKP 765. Thanks for sharing.
YGW..... I would say the N&W equipment behind NKP 765 is now appropriate because both NKP and N&W are predecessor lines merged into Norfolk Southern. Some of the cars at the end of the trin were from other roads. .... Hope your appointment goes well on Friday.
Ulrich .... I certainly hope your pneumonia clears very soon. That is not good news.
Galaxy, UP 831, EMD Don, Richard, V8 Dennis, and Dave HOn3 .... Good to see you here this morning and yesterday.
JohnBoy .... I thought of you, the retired Greyhound bus driver, when I received my Burlington Route Historical Society magazine a couple of days ago. It has a historic bus photo. It is a Burlington Trailways bus operating in Nebraska about 1940. I recall both Burlington and Santa Fe were owners of Trailways bus routes. Eventually, big bad government stopped that saying railroads can't own bus companies because anti-trust laws or something like that.
Family memebrs are here from Cincinnati (2 granddaughters with DIL. .. Son is back in Ciny working.) We went to Murray accross the lakes for dinner yesterday.
GARRY
HEARTLAND DIVISION, CB&Q RR
EVERYWHERE LOST; WE HUSTLE OUR CABOOSE FOR YOU
Wow! This place has been empty for 6 hours....
Chloe, I'll have a nice tall glass of Lemonade please.
I've been cleaning and moving STUFF in the dining room again today. Finally have the many boxes of historical STUFF from the NMRA Division moved from underneath the table that I have used to hold plants over the years. The top , a piece of heavy tempered glass to protect the table top (and didn't...) has been moved to the kitchen counter where I used windex and then white vinegar to clean all the buildup of lime off. Vacuumed the worst fo the dead leaves, spider webs, and other such STUFF from the table and most of the floor around it (will get the carpet under the table tomorrow). I will be watching the granddaughters here tomorrow while my son takes care of his unemployment stuff here in town. When he returns, I will have him help me move the table to the back portch so I can sand and refinish the water damaged table top.
I don't think we got a morning quote here in the diner today..... So here is a family favorite for you: "Know the difference between ignorance and appathy? I don't know and I don't care!" - Barney Fox (my FIL)
Hope you are all having a great day out there.
Garry:
The Kentucky RR museum is on the bucket list; hard to get to from College Station; might be able to plan a visit before or after a fb weekend...
I grew up in a town on the old Tin Can (Cisco); but I never saw it run as it was abandoned 3 years before we moved to town. I don't have space for a layout, but I am a member of a modular club. I say I model trains; one of the trains I am working on is the cleanup train that ran on the Tin Can in Nov. 67; a GP7 and an F3; forty something cars (I have the details, but I can't remember them...). I also model Santa Fe and T&P.
I am currently custom building a 5x9 sectional layout (like MR's Beer Line) based on the Angelina & Neches River RR in Lufkin, TX. Have benchwork and outer loop complete; I have to work outside, and it has been either too rainy or too hot to get much done (106 today). I do have a canopy that gives protection from the sun. I have taken pictures to document the process; need to organize them and put them somewhere where they can be shared.
Evening guys
just watching the blue jays game and browsing here on the iPad. We got some much needed rain yesterday so that was good but they are calling for a hot humid weekend. Have a few things I bought off of amazon that should be coming tomorrow. I like to get pens and pencils around this time of year as they are priced better. I also bought a new pencil sharpener as the one I have is worn out. I still use a pencil everyday when playing my table top baseball game. went through pretty much all my pencils that I bought last year. I stocked up good and bought 5 packs of a dozen each.
Evenin folks!
Janie, a cup of decaf would be nice right now.... I'll have a seat at the front booth and watch the switching going on out in the yard.
Jeremy, we got some rain around these parts as well last night. No problem here in Geneva. We got a little over a quarter inch before midnight, and I don't know yet what the total after that was. The roads were still wet when I got up and I know the garden needed a bit. However...... North west of here in Wayne County. They had 5" of rain in places. A fire chief over there said they recorded 2.5 inches in a half hour at one point. They are dealing with some major flooding and damage. There are reports (not proven as of yet) of Microbursts in places as well. Lots of trees down and branches laying across roads and stuff.
I see Galaxy, hasn't been in since this morning. Wondering if the river overflowed where he is and his power went out?
I am continuing to repot plants and clean up the dining room. Catch you all later!
Flo, I take a and give Tin Can one as well.
Worked Sucked. I am really worring about making Aug payment at the rate things are going.
Drunk Dave. We are now playing who's going to call drunk Dave and see if he is coming back to work? Dave should have got out of Rehab either on the 6th or the 8th of this month. Nancy told Paul and Carmon that only she will talk to Drunk Dave or his wife when one of them called! But no calls? She all so said we cannot call them to see what is going on, but she will call. But, she does not want to call Drunk Dave or his wife now either! She all so told Dave wife to only call her about what is going on!
Today Nancy called me and wanted to know if I have heard from Drunk Dave or his wife. Told her "No, have not heard from either one". (She told the wife to only call her) Then she asked "Is Paul and Karmon staying on top of things with Drunk Dave? I said yes they are. We Are Not, None Of Us Want His Caboose Back Hands Down!
Fence Front I really like to bulid a retaing wall and came across this on U-Tube. Could it reall be this simple??????
YGW and others please watch.
Latter, Ken
GM, Men!
Wednesday August 12th, 2015! {already! seems like only yesterday it was just February!}
GOing shopping at Price Whacker...
cya, wouldn't want to b ya!
Good Morning Diners,
Flo, would you be so kind as to supply me with an enormous cup of coffee with lots of cream, please.
Ken: you mentioned putting cement or concrete in the blocks. Sand has also been used for that purpose.
Ulrich: please take care of yourself and get better. We need someone to defend Brunhilda's honor. Also, I think you know this, St. Pauli Bier is brewed in Bremen not Hamburg. It might be more interesting if brewed in the St. Pauli district of Hamburg, but alas, no.
A true story to lighten your trials. 1969 in Frankfurt. I walked into a hamburger stand to get some food. I asked myself, "how am I going to do this." It was very crowded. I stepped up to the counter and said, "Ein Hamburger und ein French Fry." The guy behind the counter looks at me like I'm from Mars and goes,"Whaa.......?" He calls the manager over and they're yelling at each other and the manger looks at me as says, "What seems to be the problem here?" I said,"All I wanted was a hamburger and fries." He responds, "they speak good English here." They yelled a few things at each other and I eventually got my food. About three years later I found out that what I'd done was to order a person from Hamburg. This was compounded by the fact that back then this hamburger place was in the red light district. Oh well, ya learn.
i hope everyone is OK and safe.
Afternoon, Folks!
Nothing to report - I still feel miserable. It´ll take some more days until the antibiotices really kick in.
up831 - there used to be a brewery in St. Pauli, called the Bavaria - St. Pauli brewery. No connection to the Bremen St. Pauli brewery, though.
Galaxy - I sent you a PM!