Rich,
The inside corner punch. Being used in a drill press, but you also can use a wammer...I do. You may not like the price, but can be gotten cheaper. The one's I got 15yrs ago, are still sharp:
http://www.micromark.com/5and16-inch-corner-punch,7805.html
Take Care!
Frank
Elmer, thanks for all those thoughts and ideas. I did not know that there is brick embossed 0.060 plastic sheet. I have only seen thinnerbrick sheets, And, I do not want to laminate brick sheets onto smooth sheets. I have been looking at the nibbler tool as well as the square punch. Lots to consider.
Rich
Alton Junction
I have to agree with Dr Wayne and use DPM sections if money permits. I have used them before and they really work well. For a large building such as this you WILL need to brace it from the back because the DPM wall sections do not remain flat when glued together. They want to bend at the glue joints over time. The best type of bracing to use is wood. Perhaps 1x1 wood strips. With proper painting the DPM modules will look fine. If you don't have too many other buildings on your layout made this way, they will not look out of place.
If DPM wall sections don't apeal to you, start looking for a company that makes 0.060 thick plastic sheets that are brick embossed. Otherwise you will have to laminate brick embossed sheets onto plastic or wood panels.
I have this Nibbling Cutter from Micro mark and it works well for cutting out windows and doors.
http://www.micromark.com/nibbling-cutter,7761.html
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
Steve, lots of good ideas in your reply, thanks. I want to think about that. And, yes, I do live in the Chicago area.
Wayne, great reply, you really got me thinking.
Geez, I hadn't thought about using the DPM blank wall sections for some off those windows.
Unless you're trying to exactly replicate that structure and enjoy scratchbuilding, I'd suggest DPM modular wall sections. When I saw the photo of the prototype, I thought that it might have been the inspiration for their wall sections.
Even if you want to copy the prototype, the DPM walls would be a good starting point. Some appear to be a very close match to the real ones closest to the camera, while the distant ones with the high-positioned small windows could be made from DPM blank (no windows) wall sections.
Scratchbuilding in plaster could be a good option, but it looks like you'd need at least 6 or 7 different scratchbuilt masters to make the necessary moulds for the visible walls. You may be able to use the aforementioned blank sections to make the masters, though.
An important advantage of the DPM sections is that you could use .060" sheet styrene for the roofs and unseen sides and for all interior bracing, yielding an extremely strong, stable, and lightweight structure. The same structure in plaster would not only be quite heavy, but combining such walls with the dissimilar materials needed for the roof, unseen walls, window glazing, and bracing leaves the structural integrity of the finished model questionable, as many of the required adhesives available can deteriorate over time, unlike solvent-type cements used on styrene, which appear to be impervious to the passage of time.
Anyway, Rich, enough chit-chat....get goin', eh?
Wayne
richhotrainIf I were to scratch build this structure using brick sheets and Tichy windows and doors, as suggested by JaBear, does anyone have some specific suggestions on the tools needed to do this project cleanly and efficiently? Rich
Can you get access to a CNC machine. That would be perfect for cutting out all those doors and windows with the precision needed to accept the premade ones by Tichy or Grandt line. You could use a program link Inkscape to draw out the plan to scale. You only need to draw a window or door once, then Copy/Paste it numerous times. Save it as a DXF file. Most CAM programs should be able to read it.
Are you in Chicago? If so, it looks like you've got quite a few makerspaces in your area. Find out if any of them have a CNC machine. Many of those places let you become a member for just a day or week so that you won't have to pay full memebership price.
http://makerspaces.meetup.com/cities/us/il/chicago/
As to the custom brick work, someone at the ModelRailroadForums made a brick tunnel portal by putting a drag knife in his CNC machine. He had some problems with getting a uniform cutting depth, but that could be solved with a spring-loaded knife.
http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?30297-Scratch-built-tunnel-portal
Steve S
zstripe Rich, It's very hard to tell someone how to build a house, that has not built a wall before. Almost exactly how You would scratch build a miniature building....but you start from the outside in, not inside out like a house. What I mean by that. A flat embossed brick styrene sheet, you would cut all the windows/door openings first, then add framing to the inside, butt the sections together and continue your framing on the inside, throughout its length a width. The base should be one solid piece that fits inside your building that you add your walls to. Like example, 1x6 #1 grade Pine the length and width of your model and build your building around it. Your dock doors, some open will look like you have a concrete foundation inside and will match the height of boxcar doors and trailer doors. I know because that's how I do it. You can use a good piece of plywood for that also. Very solid support that way, when I put my on the layout, I screw them to it, just a couple of small wood screws. If I want to move it, just take the screws out, disconnect the light plug and take it to the work bench, if You want. I suggested using the Walthers freight house, because it's in scale, windows are similar and can be used as a template for the freight side for the windows and doors and just keep making the sections along the length. Like I said, a lot of cutting of doors a windows. Browse Micromark scratch building styrene/wood cutting tools,inside corner punches, for windows and doors. Will be much faster/easier with them. When I get a chance today, I'll find them. But nothing stopping You from looking. Also take a look at all the scratch building supplies that Hobbylinc carry's, brick sheets, some up to 24'' in length 6'' wide .020'' different sizes/thickness's, plastruct shapes/evergreen. That is one of the best places I have found for many things, a lot cheaper than a lot of on line stores. I use them a lot: http://www.hobbylinc.com/model-railroad-scratch-supplies Take Care! Frank
It's very hard to tell someone how to build a house, that has not built a wall before. Almost exactly how You would scratch build a miniature building....but you start from the outside in, not inside out like a house. What I mean by that. A flat embossed brick styrene sheet, you would cut all the windows/door openings first, then add framing to the inside, butt the sections together and continue your framing on the inside, throughout its length a width. The base should be one solid piece that fits inside your building that you add your walls to. Like example, 1x6 #1 grade Pine the length and width of your model and build your building around it. Your dock doors, some open will look like you have a concrete foundation inside and will match the height of boxcar doors and trailer doors. I know because that's how I do it. You can use a good piece of plywood for that also. Very solid support that way, when I put my on the layout, I screw them to it, just a couple of small wood screws. If I want to move it, just take the screws out, disconnect the light plug and take it to the work bench, if You want. I suggested using the Walthers freight house, because it's in scale, windows are similar and can be used as a template for the freight side for the windows and doors and just keep making the sections along the length. Like I said, a lot of cutting of doors a windows. Browse Micromark scratch building styrene/wood cutting tools,inside corner punches, for windows and doors. Will be much faster/easier with them. When I get a chance today, I'll find them. But nothing stopping You from looking. Also take a look at all the scratch building supplies that Hobbylinc carry's, brick sheets, some up to 24'' in length 6'' wide .020'' different sizes/thickness's, plastruct shapes/evergreen. That is one of the best places I have found for many things, a lot cheaper than a lot of on line stores. I use them a lot:
http://www.hobbylinc.com/model-railroad-scratch-supplies
I have been spending the morning researching the subject of scratch building, and there is certainly a lot more to it than first meets the eye.
Here is just a sample of what I am talking about. Let's say that I use a styrene sheet for my walls. I cut out the openings for the doors and windows and then insert Tichy or Grandt Line windows and doors. But, I still need to add brick work and pillasters. I still need to add concrete window sills and brick arches over the windows. Whew! Scratch building a detailed structure such as I am contemplating would require a lot of parts and a lot of skill to complete a creditable prototypical building.
Steven S zstripe Your pic, looks similar to the Produce South Water Market in Chgo How in the world do those trailers manage to back in, and then get out? Steve S
zstripe Your pic, looks similar to the Produce South Water Market in Chgo
How in the world do those trailers manage to back in, and then get out?
Steve S.
The trailers that You see in the pic, most are being unloaded. They are there 4 to 5 am. the smaller trucks are picking up. There all probably 30 different produce/fruit seller suppliers in there.selling their brand. By the time the larger trucks are empty,it is easy to get out again. Around 2 in the afternoon. I worked there part time, some times after my full-time job. All union Teamsters.
Btw: Ever see the movie Hoffa? Watch it. Produce market...before being unionized. Most all that movie, is true story.
richhotrainI am tempted to start yet another thread to get ideas on the necessary tools and materials. For example, would you scratch build the walls out of smooth styrene plastic and, if so, how would you scribe the bricks?
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
gandydancer19 Since I have done a lot of resin casting, I will try to give you a cost on materials. To cast this yourself, you are looking at a minimum of $120 in casting and mold making materials. That doesn't include the masters (DPM parts), and whatever you will use for the roof materials. What you would have to make is four different wall section molds, and four different window / door molds. The wall sections can be cast from plaster, but the windows and doors should be cast in resin. But, if you make the master sections to include the windows and doors, you wouldn't have to make molds of the windows and doors. The primary cost is the RTV needed to make the molds. This is going to be $80 alone. If you make the windos and doors as part of the walls, and cast them in plaster, then you are looking at the extra cost of the plaster and paint. And plaster will be cheaper than plastic resin.
Since I have done a lot of resin casting, I will try to give you a cost on materials.
To cast this yourself, you are looking at a minimum of $120 in casting and mold making materials. That doesn't include the masters (DPM parts), and whatever you will use for the roof materials. What you would have to make is four different wall section molds, and four different window / door molds. The wall sections can be cast from plaster, but the windows and doors should be cast in resin.
But, if you make the master sections to include the windows and doors, you wouldn't have to make molds of the windows and doors. The primary cost is the RTV needed to make the molds. This is going to be $80 alone. If you make the windos and doors as part of the walls, and cast them in plaster, then you are looking at the extra cost of the plaster and paint. And plaster will be cheaper than plastic resin.
richhotrain does anyone have some specific suggestions on the tools needed to do this project cleanly and efficiently?
http://www.aircraft-spruce.com/catalog/graphics/12-10400.gif
JaBear, great follow-up reply and timely since I was researching the Internet this morning on scratchbuilding ideas.
The more that I think about it, the more that I agree with you that the DPM Modulars are, perhaps, the easy way out. With the proper tools and materials, I think that I could do a much more prototypical project if I scratch built it with styrene plastic walls and Tichy windows and doors.
I am tempted to start yet another thread to get ideas on the necessary tools and materials. For example, would you scratch build the walls out of smooth styrene plastic and, if so, how would you scribe the bricks?
My tempation is to scratch build this structure.
Cheers, the Bear.
zstripe The hardest part about scratch building that structure, will be cutting out all the windows and doors. So start looking into some good cutting tools, like inside corner cutting punches and such.
The hardest part about scratch building that structure, will be cutting out all the windows and doors. So start looking into some good cutting tools, like inside corner cutting punches and such.
If I were to scratch build this structure using brick sheets and Tichy windows and doors, as suggested by JaBear, does anyone have some specific suggestions on the tools needed to do this project cleanly and efficiently?
NP2626 Rich, You so easily told me to get going on an Sn3 layout, now I'm going to ask you to get going on this project!
Rich, You so easily told me to get going on an Sn3 layout, now I'm going to ask you to get going on this project!
With the DPM Modulars though, it will be more like kit building than scratch building. Oh well.
zstripeYour pic, looks similar to the Produce South Water Market in Chgo
NittanyLionIt's five blocks long. It doesn't look as long in this picture as it really is.
That's pretty impressive. It looks like it beats the B&O's warehouse in Cincy for length, but the one in Cincy is five stories tall. What it lacks in length, it makes up in floor space.
http://goo.gl/maps/CJDKP
mlehman One option is to slice and dice the DPM molds into something that resembles the prototype more closely. I don't think they probably have anything real similar, so presumed some modification would be needed anyway. In the end, most people will have a convincing view of the bulk and repetition of the structure.
One option is to slice and dice the DPM molds into something that resembles the prototype more closely. I don't think they probably have anything real similar, so presumed some modification would be needed anyway. In the end, most people will have a convincing view of the bulk and repetition of the structure.
Yeah I'd figured something like taking brick stock and laminating it to a thinner backing of styrene. That'd let you control the distance between the pilasters, the size, and so on in a way that DPM panels don't let you.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
One option is to slice and dice the DPM molds into something that resembles the prototype more closely. I don't think they probably have anything real similar, so presumed some modification would be needed anyway. In the end, most people will have a convincing view of the bulk and repetition of the structure. The few who wnat to argue details should just be congratulated and then you can launch into a lengthy description of how much trouble it was to just get close-enough that they may be able to appreciate why you didn't handcarve the whole thing from a ginat block of balsa wood...or maybe not, sometimes that's how those folks just are
As for the size of the mold, I'm thinking ~12" wide, which is not super large. On the other hand, splitting it into two different molds would be no problem at all and would make it easier to handle.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
NittanyLion If I may, strictly as an observer, offer: I'd be reluctant to use the DPM parts even as a master. Of course, now you have to make a master from...something else. DPM parts look like DPM parts no matter what you do with them. I think it'd detract from the overall appeal of undertaking the duplication of such a large and unique structure.
If I may, strictly as an observer, offer: I'd be reluctant to use the DPM parts even as a master. Of course, now you have to make a master from...something else. DPM parts look like DPM parts no matter what you do with them. I think it'd detract from the overall appeal of undertaking the duplication of such a large and unique structure.
NittanyLion,
Your pic, looks similar to the Produce South Water Market in Chgo
Click on pic for more info and other pic's from host.
15th st:
Steven S NittanyLion One of my backburner ideas is the PRR fruit terminal in Pittsburgh that's a staggering quarter of a mile long, but made up of dozens of the same 25ish foot panel. Got a pic? A google search turned up nothing.
NittanyLion One of my backburner ideas is the PRR fruit terminal in Pittsburgh that's a staggering quarter of a mile long, but made up of dozens of the same 25ish foot panel.
Got a pic? A google search turned up nothing.
It's five blocks long. It doesn't look as long in this picture as it really is.
http://goo.gl/maps/fnKp9 From the air you can see how long it is.
I am going to take the liberty of copying my post from Steven's thread to this thread:
Rich:
Neat structure!
I would suggest that this project would be better handled as a kitbash then a scratch build unless you are willing to forgo the arched brick over the windows. Personally, I think the arched brick is a key detail so I would want to have it on the model if it were mine.
As an aside, your structure could be built fairly accurately with Walthers Modulars but the cost for doing a building the size that you want would be pretty stiff, so forget that!
Frank's suggestion of the Walthers freight house is almost perfect for the upper story with the two windows/pilaster/two windows/pilaster pattern, and the arched brick over the windows. The windows aren't quite as tall as on the prototype but I think they would be plenty close enough. The trick would be to find a matching styrene brick sheet for the lower storey. If you can do that then you are away to the races. According to Walthers their brick sheets match the brick patterns on their Cornerstone brick structures.
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-3524
At first I thought that one Walthers freight house should provide you with all the upper story windows that you would need, assuming that the building will be seen from one side only. However upon closer examination it appears that the windows in the freight house are not all the same height so you may need two kits depending on how long you want the two storey section to be. I am also assuming that the Walthers freight house is the same on both sides. If you use the taller windows on the first floor and the middle windows from the end walls of the second floor you will get six panels of two windows and one pilaster, or two pilasters as will be needed for one end of the wall. Each panel is about 3" so if you want the two storey section of your freight house to be half of the 52" length of your project, then you will need either eight or nine window/wall panels to do the second storey. If you use just one kit your second storey will be about 18" - 19" long. Having the two storey section a bit shorter than the single storey actually seems to be in proportion to the prototype.
The large freight doors are a bit hard to see but the one that is fairly visible looks something like this:
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/120-2402
or this:
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/87-133
They would be reasonably easy to make using some V groove sheet and .010" x .060" strip, or there abouts.
The smaller arch top doors that are on either side of the larger doors could be a challenge, mainly because of the brick arch. You could get away with using styrene HO corrugated roofing with the corrugations mounted horizontally to simulate roll up doors.
The foundation looks to be plain smooth concrete. That's easy to do.
The docks can be made from V groove styrene sheet to simulate the wood boards, but I question whether or not they should be modelled at all. It looks to me that originally there were no outside docks and the track would have been right beside the walls. The docks in the picture appear to have been added later. I suspect this because first, there is no evidence of attachment points for either docks or roofs on the rest of the building, and second, the docks are warped. If they were original to the building they would have been built better than that. At least that's my theory and I am sticking to it!
The sloped roof on the single storey section appears to be covered with some sort of panels, although the size and orientation is different from a typical corrugated roof. The panels appear to run horizontally instead of the usual vertical mounting and they appear to be quite a bit larger than typical steel roof panelling. I would still go with corrugated styrene and use a #11 blade to lightly score the outlines of the individual panels. I would not go to the expense of installing actual corregated aluminum sheets. That would get expensive and unless you are fastideous with the installation you will end up with creases and bumps which are just plain not prototypical IMHO.
I would note the fire wall that shows on the roof. It is evidenced by the raised wall that runs vertically at about the middle of the two storey section. The fire wall would be solid all the way to the foundation with the exception of fire doors that would be closed in the event of a fire to stop it from spreading throughout the entire freight house. That is the sort of detail that adds a lot of visual interest.
I have a tendancy to go on forever so I will quit for now.
Dave
EDIT:
I hadn't thought of the DPM walls. As others have said, they would be quite suitable.
'More than one way to skin the cat'.
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Doughless I would use DPM modulars. Very close match.
I would use DPM modulars. Very close match.
I would like to learn more about casting molds though because the sheer cost of using DPM modulars to build this structure can be enormous.
Could I use one set of DPM modulars to make the molds and then go from there?
- Douglas