Lots of additional replies since I last checked in, and I appreciate them all.
So, where are we?
1. Rounded Top of Windows.
2. Overall Length of Building.
3. Height Difference Between Stories
Regarding the windows, they seem more rounded than flat, so I am inclined to go with the round top windows.
Regarding the overall length, I do plan to model both the 1-story section and the 2-story section. The 1-story section will be 33" in length and the 2-story section will be 22" in length.
The height difference between the two stories is the real issue. From the photo of the prototype, it is clear that each story is the identical height of the other story. But with the DPM modulars, the 1st story dock section is 2 11/16 inches high. The 2-story 2nd story is 3 11/16 inches high. So, the combined height is 6 3/8 inches.
If I just use a 1-story 2nd story, the height is only 1 7/8 inches for a combined height of 4 9/16 inches.
If I add a dock riser (9/16 inches high) to the 1-story 2nd story, the combined height is 5 1/8 inches.
So, with none of these alternatives do I get two stories equal in height.
DPM does not make things easy.
Incidentally, I found out something interesting about that second story. It could be reached by an entry door from the sidewalk on the Roosevelt Road overpass
Rich
Alton Junction
Doughless The prototype has a horizontal brick band in between the first and second story. The DPM modulars have that band at the top of the smaller-one story walls, so just cut 1/5th off of the bottom of the taller walls and I think the whole thing would look great. Hold the saw at an angle so the brick part of the wall is lower than the inside part, otherwise there will be a gap between the band on the lower wall and the bottom of the top wall. Kind of like back-cutting a piece of crown moulding, if that makes sense.
The prototype has a horizontal brick band in between the first and second story. The DPM modulars have that band at the top of the smaller-one story walls, so just cut 1/5th off of the bottom of the taller walls and I think the whole thing would look great.
Hold the saw at an angle so the brick part of the wall is lower than the inside part, otherwise there will be a gap between the band on the lower wall and the bottom of the top wall. Kind of like back-cutting a piece of crown moulding, if that makes sense.
I agree with You. I said that before.
And the awning, would be very close to that area, where it was cut.
Take Care!
Frank
- Douglas
Wayne,
It's quite possible for the hydraulic elevator or conveyer, but the one I was in a lot, did not. The building was almost identical. The second story though, was not as long as Rich's, also in my opinion, JaBear's drawing in the very first post, best resemble's what the building looked like, in proportion to the first and second floor. The second floor could have contained, high dollar freight, like Imported clothing, which there was a lot of, straight off the ships in New York, which also has a similar freight set up like Chgo, but nearer to the docks. I left a link to that somewhere in the thread's when we were discussing Lifschultz Fast Freight, which was started in 1918, buildings are also similar.
I also would not make it so long in length as some are saying. The one I'm bashing is 36'' in length,5 1/2'' wide, that takes up a lot of real estate fast. And many doors and window's, not including vehicles, that would be on the other side. In my opinion also, box cars are cheap, compared to Ho scale trucks and trailers. LOL.
hon30critterWhat I was suggesting is that instead of using the two story wall panels as you have shown, use a one story wall panel but add a dock riser section to the bottom of the wall and a cornice section to the top. That will give you approximately the same height for the second story wall but it will place the windows lower in the wall. To me, that will more accurately model the prototype. It will eliminate the appearance of the second story windows being too high in the wall, which is how I see your current lay up looking.
Yeah, the proportions of the upper story to the lower don't look right. I'd remove the decorative strip of brick from the top of the lower walls, then cut the upper walls at a point about one fifth from the bottom. Reassemble them, bottom to top, with the trimmed bottom wall, the one-fifth cut-off section from the upper wall, the trimmed-off decorative strip from the bottom wall, and the shortened top wall.I haven't seen much reference to it, but are you going to model any of the single story portion? In my opinion, that will make the overall structure appear longer, even if you keep the length at nine bays, which should make it about 30" long. I don't know how much room you have for this freighthouse, but the longer you can make it, the less likely anyone will notice if the details are incorrect. I'd do it as 6'-8' long, but reduce the depth to allow for the depth of only the visible side of the sloped roof or perhaps even a foreshortened version of that roof.
hon30critterAs for the window style - I have to disagree with Doctor Wayne on this one (I will probably burn in someplace very hot for disagreeing with himSmile, Wink & Grin).
Well, at least it will be a good opportunity for us to get together.
hon30critterHere is my reasoning: The fully rounded top windows appear to the naked eye to be narrower than the partially rounded ones. The fully rounded top draws your eye to the center of the window. The partially rounded window tops allow your eye to move easily from one to the next. (Has anybody had any art lessons here?) The goal is to make the structure appear to be as long as possible so I suggest using windows which do not draw your eye into the center of each window. IMHO less curve equals wider appearance.
Hah, the rounded top draws my eye to the rounded top, although in all honesty, my eye was always drawn in the less usual direction - the interesting-looking woman rather than the supposedly good-looking one, f'rinstance. I do think that the misproportions of the upper and lower walls make them look taller, though, and the arched tops accentuate that. Your comment made me look at the prototype photo again and that's when I first noticed that those windows aren't as fully-arched as I had originally thought. Both DPM versions are, to some degree, wrong, but neither wrong enough that I would decry their use.
hon30critterRich: Always remember that it is your railroad and you can do whatever the heck you want!
You got that right, Dave, but I wish he'd just get with it before the bunch of us over-analyse this right out of his mind.
zstripe....I don't believe the second floor was for freight storage, mainly because I don't see any elevator lift house on the roof, which would contain the pully's and lift mechanism for the elevator....
You may be correct, but it may have had hydraulic elevators, which don't require lift houses. I don't know how long the two storey portion of the building might be, but that seems like an awful lot of office space.
Wayne
I agree with the observation that the prototypes windows are flatter than the DPM modulars, but I think I like the original arched windows better...just because I guess.
In the prototype, the top story walls are shorter than what is represented by the DPM walls. Just razor saw about 25% off of the bottom of the mocked up top story, which would be an easy cut with no additional seams showing. Or measure exactly if Rich wants to be that precise.
richhotrain zstripe I think the second one with the doors in the center further apart, would match better for the boxcars spotted at the dock. Frank, that is the one that I like best as well. Here is what the 2-story freight house wall would look like. Rich
zstripe I think the second one with the doors in the center further apart, would match better for the boxcars spotted at the dock.
I think the second one with the doors in the center further apart, would match better for the boxcars spotted at the dock.
Frank, that is the one that I like best as well. Here is what the 2-story freight house wall would look like.
Rich,
Just a couple things to ponder? Although You are trying to replicate a building for the look of the 50's, an important fact is...the building was built in the 20's, so the window's and many other parts are going to reflect that. High arch window's were the norm, for a very good reason...they let in more Light. The school I went to and the house I lived in had almost exactly the same window's and door's had transom's that you could open to cool off your house, remember heat rises. I do like the second way....but..in my opinion, the windows are too high, less light. My reasoning also. I don't believe the second floor was for freight storage, mainly because I don't see any elevator lift house on the roof, which would contain the pully's and lift mechanism for the elevator. The one I was in did not have an elevator, the offices, were all upstairs on the second floor and used stairs to get there. That facility was not used for storage....cross dock/transload 24/7.
Be Happy, In Your Work. LOL
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Rich:
First, I think it will look good regardless of which window style you choose. You are not likely going to have a picture of the prototype stuck on the background to compare it to so knowbody except you (and me) will know the difference.
Your revised lay up isn't quite what I had in mind, but the window style is correct IMHO.
What I was suggesting is that instead of using the two story wall panels as you have shown, use a one story wall panel but add a dock riser section to the bottom of the wall and a cornice section to the top. That will give you approximately the same height for the second story wall but it will place the windows lower in the wall. To me, that will more accurately model the prototype. It will eliminate the appearance of the second story windows being too high in the wall, which is how I see your current lay up looking.
As for the window style - I have to disagree with Doctor Wayne on this one (I will probably burn in someplace very hot for disagreeing with him). Here is my reasoning: The fully rounded top windows appear to the naked eye to be narrower than the partially rounded ones. The fully rounded top draws your eye to the center of the window. The partially rounded window tops allow your eye to move easily from one to the next. (Has anybody had any art lessons here?) The goal is to make the structure appear to be as long as possible so I suggest using windows which do not draw your eye into the center of each window. IMHO less curve equals wider appearance. Yes, I have had art lessons, and architectural drawing lessons, and I was in the window business for the better part of my career so I have a biased opinion.
Rich: Always remember that it is your railroad and you can do whatever the heck you want!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Originally, I would have opted for the fully-rounded tops, but on closer inspection of the prototype photo, the windows appear to be about halfway between fully-rounded and partially-rounded. Whichever you choose, Rich, will have to be modified accordingly.
Personally, I'd stick with the fully-rounded ones - they look less incorrect than the partially-rounded ones.
As for the window sills, I'd go with flat pieces of strip material cemented to the face of the brick,then paint them and the moulded-in sill the same colour - less work for a similar effect.
hon30critter Rich: I've got to throw my in here. I think you are using the wrong style windows. The windows in your lay up have fully rounded tops and lintels (part #243-30109 I believe). The windows in the prototype have partially rounded tops and lintels, which DPM offers. Those would be closer to the prototype IMHO.
I've got to throw my in here.
I think you are using the wrong style windows. The windows in your lay up have fully rounded tops and lintels (part #243-30109 I believe). The windows in the prototype have partially rounded tops and lintels, which DPM offers. Those would be closer to the prototype IMHO.
I'm not sure that I agree with you. To me, the windows in the photo seem to be more rounded at the top. What do others think?
If you were to use parts #243-30130 - one story wall section with partially rounded windows, #243-30115 - dock riser, and #243-30117 - cornice together, I think you could get a second story wall with better proportions and with a closer resemblance to the prototype. No cutting required!
The lower story could be done with part #243-30136 - dock level single man door with a partially rounded top/lintel window. The freight doors would remain the same.
I think the second one with the doors in the center further apart, would match better for the boxcars spotted at the dock. I also think that You are over thinking the arches above the window, but a concrete sill at the bottom of the window, cut from Evergreen stock would look good. They already make the size, just cut the length.
When You put them on, file a little off each end, so they fit inside the opening of the window and meet flush with the bottom of the window. That will give it more character, as if the window was sitting on the sill.
Better yet, use a Evergreen right angle shape for the sill and file the ends to fit inside.
Doughless richhotrain I came across this HO scale brickwork from The N Scale Architect. http://thenarch.com/products/brick-windows-arches-details-ho Has anyone had any experience with this product? It could be useful for adding those brick arches over the windows. Rich Another issue would be if the arches are the same radius as the Tichy windows. I can't figure why Tichy wouldn't make something to go with their windows, but I guess not.
richhotrain I came across this HO scale brickwork from The N Scale Architect. http://thenarch.com/products/brick-windows-arches-details-ho Has anyone had any experience with this product? It could be useful for adding those brick arches over the windows. Rich
I came across this HO scale brickwork from The N Scale Architect.
http://thenarch.com/products/brick-windows-arches-details-ho
Has anyone had any experience with this product?
It could be useful for adding those brick arches over the windows.
Another issue would be if the arches are the same radius as the Tichy windows. I can't figure why Tichy wouldn't make something to go with their windows, but I guess not.
richhotrain Do you like either one or neither one?
Do you like either one or neither one?
They both look great, especially if they were painted the grey color of the prototype.
You could make the bottom windows smaller by cutting up an extra brick wall into small shapes that would fill in the bottoms of the windows. Sure you would see the lines and it would look like bricked in windows if you looked closely, but it might pass the three foot test.
doctorwayne Concrete sills can be done as a simple overlay of .010" or .015" styrene strip, but brick arches may require individual pieces or the creation of thin one-piece resin castings. Were I to do that warehouse, I'd use DPM walls and not likely modify them much, if at all. I think that you can capture the essence of most structures without having to copy them exactly. That's not saying that you should do the same, but it could be a viable option. Wayne
Concrete sills can be done as a simple overlay of .010" or .015" styrene strip, but brick arches may require individual pieces or the creation of thin one-piece resin castings.
Were I to do that warehouse, I'd use DPM walls and not likely modify them much, if at all. I think that you can capture the essence of most structures without having to copy them exactly. That's not saying that you should do the same, but it could be a viable option. Wayne
I always enjoy reading your contributions to the forum. You've mentioned something that I could never really figure out in my years in the hobby, since I'm more of a kitbasher than a scratchbuilder:
I can't figure out how to represent the arched brick lintils that older buildings have, or even the brick sills, if I were to cut window and door openings into brick sheet styrene.
I was thinking that maybe Tichy would sell these trim parts as part of their window and door offerings but it seems like you're saying that casting them out of resin may be the only way.
I agree with your opinion about using the DPM modulars. I think Rich's mock up shown on a previous page would look great.
doctorwayne Were I to do that warehouse, I'd use DPM walls and not likely modify them much, if at all. I think that you can capture the essence of most structures without having to copy them exactly. That's not saying that you should do the same, but it could be a viable option.
Were I to do that warehouse, I'd use DPM walls and not likely modify them much, if at all. I think that you can capture the essence of most structures without having to copy them exactly. That's not saying that you should do the same, but it could be a viable option.
Call it wishful thinking.
Wayne, thanks for those comments.
I would make good politician because I keep on flip-flopping.
I will use modulars, No, I will scratch build, No, I will use modulars.
This is why, so far, I have not started the project.
The thickness of the Tichy masonry windows is about .040", but the ones I have appear to be made to fit into an exact opening - there's no room for error, as there's nothing to overlap the interior edges of the opening. If I were using them, I'd add an overlapping strip of styrene around the inside face of the window - that would minimise the appearance of any gaps and provide a better gluing surface and would also keep the window at a constant depth from the visible face of the wall.The Walthers brick sheets are about .050" thick - too thin, I think, to represent an industrial-type wall, which would have been double or triple brick, or brick over concrete blocks. I think that makes the DPM wall sections more suitable overall, although cutting openings in either type will be onerous.Concrete sills can be done as a simple overlay of .010" or .015" styrene strip, but brick arches may require individual pieces or the creation of thin one-piece resin castings.While I've built a couple of fairly accurate copies of particular prototypes, this is one of the reasons I prefer to freelance. Otherwise, I tend to let myself slide way too far down the slope, with the result that a project takes far too long to complete. That's not a concern if you have only a couple of such projects, but when you're trying to build an operating model railroad with a reasonably "finished" appearance, it may not be the best use of one's time.
doctorwayne richhotrain ...The Tichy windows and doors have trim that overlaps the edge of the openings, so imperfections in the cutting process could be concealed....
richhotrain ...The Tichy windows and doors have trim that overlaps the edge of the openings, so imperfections in the cutting process could be concealed....
I don't see anywhere on the Tichy site where they mention brick wall thickness, but most styrene brick walls seem to be 0.020" thickness. Does that sound about right?
Besides those exact cuts, my other two concerns about scratch building are the brick arches over the windows and the concrete sills below the windows. The sills don't seem like a big deal, but the brick arches concern me.
The Tichy catalogue shows windows and doors as either "framed" or "masonry". It's a PDF and takes ages to load on my steam-era computer, but it does show photos of everything which they offer. Here's a link:
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC0QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tichytraingroup.com%2FPortals%2F0%2FInstructions%2FHOcatalog.pdf&ei=-i5ZVNCVNsaAygTzg4CIDA&usg=AFQjCNHMfr13wyTZSeqmRXpoUgYP6Goltw&sig2=H5evWufigI1KUuk1CdRdCQ&bvm=bv.78677474,d.aWw
Good point....that totally slipped My mind, about the windows/doors.
Should be evident in these photos, as to what Wayne means:
Btw: Sorry about the added info....would not let me copy just the window's.
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richhotrain...The Tichy windows and doors have trim that overlaps the edge of the openings, so imperfections in the cutting process could be concealed....
The Tichy windows for non-masonry structures have overlapping trim, but windows in brick, stone, or concrete buildings don't. There's generally a brick moulding to which the brick is layed, but it's inset to the face of the wall.If the windows illustrated are intended for wooden structures, you may be able to install them from the inside of the walls, and if the fit in the wall opening is a bit "loose", add brick moulding using strip styrene. However, if those windows represent ones which open, the lower sash will be protruding rather than recessed, which would not be prototypical.Tichy does offer some windows for masonry structures, and that will be noted in the part's description.
Time to strap on the skis, Rich.....welcome to the slippery slope.
I was just checking on a order from Walthers and I run across these. I don't usually do Adv. Res.,but I gotta have these.Sure would look great at Your dream freight house, correct road also:
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/949-2358
52'' Sure is a lot of window's and doors, not to mention, cutting them out. Just remember, the other side will be very similar to the flat roof building with the truck dock. Some of those truck dock doors, could be double wide, instead of all single. Without transom's, if You can find them. Those docks were mighty cold to work on in the winter time. Not all doors were open then and they were not heated, how well I know that.
Well, back to bashing.
Have Fun!
BTW: Hope You can find 50's scale trucks/trailers. I about cleaned everyone out, in the past two months. Especially the International R190 1953 Tractors and 32ft Trailers by CMW, That I have been stripping the paint from and repainting. LOL.
Long before this thread was started, my mind has raced back and forth between kitbashing, using Walthers or DPM modulars, or an outright scratch build of this freight house.
The Walthers modulars more closely reflects the look of the freight house than the DPM modulars, but the Walthers modulars have been discontinued for some time now.
If I take on this project, I really do want it to closely resembles the prototype because it will be so prominent on my layout, measuring around 52" in length. So, I think the only proper way to do this is to scratch build it. Tichy doors and windows most closely capture the look and the dimension of the prototype. I would cut out the openings in styrene brick sheet. The Tichy windows and doors have trim that overlaps the edge of the openings, so imperfections in the cutting process could be concealed. The Tichy windows and doors are pictured below.