Yes, that's life -- it happens one way or another.
I think just setting a good example by doing outreach whenever it feels natural, at whatever age, if what's most effective. Had a guy come by to fix the stove this week. I often ask visitors if they want to take a peek, to varying degrees of interest in their reactions. He said "sure" in a rather non commital way and had 5 minutes to stick his head in the door to see it in the basement.
I wasn't expecting much reaction based on what he'd said to that point, but once he saw it and I said just a little about what I model, Durango to Silverton and beyond, he lit up even more. Turns out he'd very much enjoyed a trip on the Silverton 40 years ago. After that, he was kind of speeachless, then said his goodbyes. Who knows, nothing will probably ever come of it, but you never know. I did let him know I plan to start regular ops sessions soon so to let me know if he'd like to give it a try. After all, some folks just like to run trains. They're model railroaders, too.
I wasn't expecting much reaction based on what he'd said to that point, but once he saw it and I said just a little about what I model, Durango to Silverton and beyond, he lit up even more. Turns out he'd very much enjoyed a trip on the Silverton 40 years ago. After that, he was kind of speeachless, then said his goodbyes.
Who knows, nothing will probably ever come of it, but you never know. I did let him know I plan to start regular ops sessions soon so to let me know if he'd like to give it a try. After all, some folks just like to run trains. They're model railroaders, too.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
When you are young, most people don't have the time for a hobby if they are ambitious, period! It is only when you get older that you have the time or money to make a time intensive hobby like Model Railroading happen. When I was first starting out, I worked a few 20hour days and ussually worked over 60 hours a week at least. I had no time for anything. Then I got ahead, got into a relationship and had the time for a hobby for awhile, had a kid and work again garnered a min of 60 hours a week, kids grew up and hobby time again. We all go though stages in life and there are few young people with the time for this hobby, that will come later, that is why it always seems like a hobby for older people and I am sure it always has been!!!!!!!!
Great post Mark, no reason to put on kevlar. Your comments are at least based on some reality instead of emotion.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Yea,with the cost of everything going up caused me to change from a standard railroad to a logging road where I can scratch build a lot of the stuff.I can also cut down on a lot of scenery such as towns and such.
Hello Everyone,
Initially I hadn't intended on getting into this thread...but it has reached a point where I feel I need to.
I hope what I have to say in this post might...I say might, help calm some fears and debates about the original idea in the thread.
First and foremost...I am not promoting or supporting my employer...they don't deserve it.
I work for Amazon.com at their 900,000 sq ft sortable fulfillment center in northern Nevada. In any given week I can see directly/physically into as many as 100,000 customer orders...if I chose, and only ever knowing who they go to when I problem solve orders...a very rare thing. I began to see model railroading appear about 9 years ago. I see many 'model hobby' orders. Trains, cars, planes, rockets, ships, radio control, doll houses, etc. I see no more or less now than I did 9 years ago. The only major increases I've seen in anything is...consumer electronics and 'adult' toys...go figure.
I think our hobby has just changed with the times, as with so...so many other things. I see this regularly being in online retail.
Manufacturers needed to adjust their production according to consumers wants and needs. And as a result we become frustrated with the changes. I've been in the hobby for more than 40 years and have witness increadible change. Manufactures have come and gone, others absorbed by once competitors. Some went away because they couldn't compete. Some like Athearn have changed their manufacturing practices to suit the changes...RTR over BB.
Our LHS...are victims of change. Like the many businesses that have disappeared as a result of my employer. Unless they are resilient and diverse, but also in a good location they are giving way to the large online retailers who can sell for less and in greater volume.
(Am I really saying anything here that we don't already know?)
Personally...I think model railroading, like the other 'model hobbies' has a future as it has had...driven by those who enjoy it.
Next time the kids squawk that they want a new Xbox, get them a DCC/sound equipped SD70ACE or a Big Boy that just happens to be numbered 4014. L...O...L!
Okay...I said what I wanted to say. I'll put on the kevlar vest and take the shots if anyone wants.
Have a good one
Mark Hoffman
Modeling in HO...Reading and Conrail together in an alternate history.
hellwarrior What can we do if we don't want this hobby to disappear? Do you know any actions that should help to attract younger audience to this hobby?
What can we do if we don't want this hobby to disappear? Do you know any actions that should help to attract younger audience to this hobby?
HW, people have been howling that this hobby is dying since the sixties; the complaint is nothing new and has very little substance behind it. Every hobby's taken a blow in the last few years -- recession and all that jazz -- but the sheer profusion of train stuff available for purchase is copious evidence that things are gonna be just fine.
Changing, yes; dying, no.
Streamlined steam, oh, what a dream!!
Maybe buy a cell phone jammer?
Jim
I thought it had already died? At least that's what a post back in 2005 had said...
I hadn't really noticed since I have all the locos. cars, kits I can use.
When I returned to the hobby about 8 years ago, I had been spending most of my free time playing games in front of a computer screen. I discovered, somewhat to my surprise, the joy of doing something physical, making real things with my hands instead of images on a screen, and actually getting stuff like paint and plaster on my fingers.
But, even though everyone who sees my layout seems pretty impressed, I don't think I've gotten anyone to seriously consider joining the hobby. I guess it's not contagious.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
As a newbie to the group, not to the hobby, my input may or may not be appreciated. Here goes anyhow.
My interests are in steam, logging, which pretty much limits my time frame. With this in mind,
There is a local club, but their interest is in the town I live in, modern era. DCC only, or, the door is slammed to me. No big deal, I can live with that. Most of my loco's were purchased before DCC became the god of control systems. That's not a complaint, just the facts.
As with many other hobbies, my first purchases, some 40 years ago, were impulse, not reasoned, meaning I have a lot of stuff I'll never use. It was only after I had my first "layout" that I began to think about what I wanted it to be and how to go about making it reality.
I don't live in a mountainous area, almost flatland here, and neither the east or west coast railroads have any appeal to me, not when I live within half an hours drive from Milwaukee. Most of the trackage that was existent when I was a kid is gone, the right of way is now bike trails. I don't have a lot but memories to go on, but I can remember seeing steam daily on the branch running through my home town.
I'm far from being a kid now, and with failing eyesight, detailing and repainting cars for the RR I want to be the main line is out of the question.
Retired, fixed income, and more than 40 loco's, DCC is out of the question for purely financial reasons. Sound means nothing to me, I like quiet. Nor do I enjoy complexity, the KISS principal still works very well. I have a 12 volt supply, ten amps capability, and each throttle costs me less than ten bucks, ten amps can run a lot of trains.
I don't have unlimited room, at the most a 5 by 9 without encroaching too much on my living area is about it.
Now for my complaints, and it's with the manufacturers. Any given manufacturer produces either easterm or western railroads, as if the center of the country didn't exist. I will never see a UP or NYC loco in this area, period. CHoices for those that I would see or would have seen in the past are very few, extremely limited. I was fortunate to pick up a Fox Valley Hiawatha loco, before the retailer I use ran out of them. I was also fortunate to pick up a complete 8 car Milwaukee road passenger set, before IHC decided to let them die. I also have the same set in C&NW, and a Hudson to pull it. Not available now, at least not in the heavyweight cars. IHC has a sawmill kit on their website, my guess is it's something out of stock and they have no intention of restocking, as the order I sent over a month ago has not been shipped. Nor has my CC been charged.
My equipment has been dormant in my attic for some years, maybe fifteen, but bringing it down has only shown me that what I need to complete a layout has slowly disappeared. I can scratch the buildings I need, maybe even do some weathering on them, but the materials I need for that are becoming hard to find. Plastic is available, but I don't work in plastic. I have a good stock of scribed wood, but when that's gone, I have no assurance another supply will be available.
The original question, I can't answer. Costs are running amok, the disdain for pure DC layouts growing, but that's just the state at this time. Using IHC loco's, code 100 is about the only option I have, I can live with that. Clubs respond to their members, manufacturers respond to the market, where it's leading, I don't know. Nobody does.
Rich.
BRAKIEMike,I know of one club that allows 16 year olds to join but,a parent must be present during the club meeting and the student members have guide lines to follow like no operating power tools,wiring and other safety type rules.. There has to be a workable soultion where its a win-win for all including the insurance company.
Larry,
I agree. The solution you mentioned is one.
The problem is some folks just don't want to go that extra mile or have to worry about special coverage beyond if the building catches on fire. In my own experience, the organization I work with has outreach to all ages as a specific part of our mission, so that helps when someone says something is inconvenient or requires a little extra effort.
That's why outreach work like yours is so vital. As adults, we have to make that happen or we risk letting the future slip away from us.
mlehman BRAKIE I don't think clubs will do that today since most require a prospective member to be 18 and I heard of one club you had to be 21 for "insurance reasons".. Larry, Having worked in non-profit adminstration, when there's discussion of insurance and minors, it's often about the fact that there are less than nice people in the world and insurance companies typically charge extra for coverage of organizations where minors and adults participate together. Not that such things didn't occur in the past, it's just the sort of issue that raises costs, as well as awareness, nowadays. That said, model railroading is hardly alone in needing to work around this problem. That's one reason why I mentioned that it does take extra effort to offer the opportunity for young people to participate in the hobby. I certainly admire your own outreach efforts at the county fair to engage with young folks, as that's an excellent way to do something about the future, rather than express anxiety that it's a sign the hobby is on death's door. No, like most things in life model railroading is what you make of it yourself -- for yourself and for others.
BRAKIE I don't think clubs will do that today since most require a prospective member to be 18 and I heard of one club you had to be 21 for "insurance reasons"..
Having worked in non-profit adminstration, when there's discussion of insurance and minors, it's often about the fact that there are less than nice people in the world and insurance companies typically charge extra for coverage of organizations where minors and adults participate together. Not that such things didn't occur in the past, it's just the sort of issue that raises costs, as well as awareness, nowadays.
That said, model railroading is hardly alone in needing to work around this problem. That's one reason why I mentioned that it does take extra effort to offer the opportunity for young people to participate in the hobby. I certainly admire your own outreach efforts at the county fair to engage with young folks, as that's an excellent way to do something about the future, rather than express anxiety that it's a sign the hobby is on death's door. No, like most things in life model railroading is what you make of it yourself -- for yourself and for others.
Mike,I know of one club that allows 16 year olds to join but,a parent must be present during the club meeting and the student members have guide lines to follow like no operating power tools,wiring and other safety type rules..
There has to be a workable soultion where its a win-win for all including the insurance company.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
"Where are we heading? Pro-ba-bly to page 5. Just sayin..."
Wow, tstage, you can, like, see the future. I never thought it would go this far. They should, like, you know, hire you as a staff writer or something...dang, so close...
Rastafarr I'd love to teach people that ISLs and microlayouts can be a blast. Living spaces are smaller and space is at a premium compared to thirty or forty years ago; not a lot of youngsters have space for a big (or even medium) sized layout. Would it not be better to start a newbie with an 18" by 36" HO or N switching layout? Something that can be stuffed in a corner? That teaches that there's more to this hobby than simple continuous running around a loop of track?
I'd love to teach people that ISLs and microlayouts can be a blast. Living spaces are smaller and space is at a premium compared to thirty or forty years ago; not a lot of youngsters have space for a big (or even medium) sized layout.
Would it not be better to start a newbie with an 18" by 36" HO or N switching layout? Something that can be stuffed in a corner? That teaches that there's more to this hobby than simple continuous running around a loop of track?
That is a really good idea, as that is certainly the first barrier anyone faces in this hobby beyond building kits -- Where do I put a layout?
In fact, the was a recent discussion on what next year's MR project layout will be. Maybe they should take a good stab at something that's clearly smaller than a 4x8. Many look down on the 4x8 as not big enough to be a statisfying layout, when the fact is that layouts much smaller than that can be quite popular. They're certainly a more accessible way into the hobby than the layouts we usually see in MR and the other mags.
Where are we heading? Pro-ba-bly to page 5. Just sayin...
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
People still build ships in a bottle, wooden sailing ship modeling is healthy, plastic models of aircraft, cars, armor, ships, sci-fi etc are still being bought and built. To the same extent as they were in the past? I don't know but probably not. But the fact that these hobbies are still being enjoyed leads me to believe model railroading will still be around in some shape or form for long after all of us have powered our layouts down for the last time. I am optimistic. As others have already pointed out, our hobby is extremely diverse. Model railroading as you and I individually/personally view it/enjoy it may not be the same 50 years or so from now. But a version of model railroading will still be here. I look at my young Son who loves trains, both real and model, and frankly I am excited for what his generation will have available to them that I don't and likely won't. Look at the innovative growth many of us have see and I see no reason for it to stop. Slow...perhaps...stop...no I don't believe so. So, I guess I don't see the "death of model railroading" as being one of the four horses of the apocalypse. Optimism folks. The glass is half full to me...and I really don't think said glass has ever honestly been full in model railroading history. Enjoy...have fun...talk to those who are interested in listening and/or learning...but keep calm and model on folks
Happy modeling!
Don
"Ladies and gentlemen, I have some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that both engines have failed, and we will be stuck here for some time. The good news is that you decided to take the train and not fly."
superbeWhen I joined the forums 6 years ago there seemed to be a lot more newbies loging in and asking basic questions. IMO there are less and less each year.
Entirely possible, but I can't say I've noticed much difference.
On the other hand, social media has exploded in that time span. I'm certain a lot of the younger crowd is there, where we don't see it. At least I don't, as I avoid socila media like the plague. But factor that into the complex and changing world of model railroading in some form. A lot of newcomers may never bother with the forums except to Google what they need, when they need it. Just as with written mail, things like forums and email have life cycles -- and people who stick with them, rather than change.
Glad I'm not getting paid to worry about accessing those new demograhics. I much prefer hanging here with the rest of the oldtimers and anyone new who'd like to participate. This has actually been a really good thread, minus a few rough edges, in laying out a lot of different ideas useful in thinking about what we can do to encoruage a healthy hobby.
I have not read most of the threads.
I see the long term future of model railroading as dim. This is based on what I have obseved but may not be factual.
When I joined the forums 6 years ago there seemed to be a lot more newbies loging in and asking basic questions. IMO there are less and less each year.
To me this is an indcation of where this hobby is headed.
Just my
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
BRAKIEI don't think clubs will do that today since most require a prospective member to be 18 and I heard of one club you had to be 21 for "insurance reasons"..
Talking about the topic is fine. Talking about talking about the topic (bemoaning what others have said, what you expect they're going to say, or even the fact that the question has been asked) is a bit too meta. Keep it civil and on-topic, please.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Hi Harold A
I think the hobby is dying a slow death.
We will end up like Meccano a historical curiosity we are from an age when every boy wanted to be the driver of what ever the flash named express train was that captured the nation we where born in was. They where the great men of our child hood, and came with the smell of smoke and something akin to baby oil, the thrashing of coupling rods as they hurtled along steel rails at high speed. To take us to places real and imagined.
Trains of today don't offer that any more its all harsh reality and clean lines, and may places you will wait a long time before they ever see a train again if they ever do. The evedence in many places that a railway even existed has gone under concrete and tarmac.
In some ways cost is a factor I think this because a lot of the buildings I see advertised are now pre built and I think quite expencive the supply of Kits my prefered option it is cheaper and leaves me to have some input into the result and I can bash them if I choose.
Analogue locomotives my prefered option are getting harder to find new I prefer new inspite of cost but they are cheaper by a long way when compared to digital locomotives, that because of a control option I chose years ago
I literaly cannot use them it will blow part of my control system that will shut the lot down.
the model press seem to be printing less how to articals
I often wonder if this is because the numbers that can actualy build something are slowly going the way of the dinosaurs.
The death of local hobby shops is not helping these where allways a good place to get advice and what you needed at the same time.
We are in an age where it is wanted now and the digital entertainment options are many and varied and the young don't seem to want to make any thing any more.
None of us will ever see the real NX01 Enterprise built because come the right century there will not be any one left who can build anything.
I noticed some one mention all the wonderfull fiddly bits that break on current models as a plus
While not wanting to go back to the toy town era I see it as a minus because it has got too fragile and you become to scared to use the model as the manufacturere intended
If we could encourage more make it practical skills and less computor game couch potatoe we might have a chance.
But it's the digital age so no chance.
Time for this old dinosaur to head for the swamp.
regards John
The club I belong to has two memberships, regular (18) and junior (10-1. With an adult willing to join). I was an exception to this. I joined at 10 and was sponsored by a clubmember. Here I am now, 22 and still a member.
(My Model Railroad, My Rules)
These are the opinions of an under 35 , from the east end of, and modeling, the same section of the Wheeling and Lake Erie railway. As well as a freelanced road (Austinville and Dynamite City railroad).
Where are WE Heading? Seeing as how, I don't have a mouse in my pocket. I can only speak for myself. And the principle behind that is quite simple. Either lead follow, or get the heck out of the way. That being said, I was never much a follower. I try to make the correct decisions, based on that, and a HOBBY is secondary to that belief. Whether it is dying or not, is beyond my control, so why waste my time talking about it. Growing up in the streets of Chicago, or any big city for that matter, tends to make one tuff and I'm glad for that, for years later, I found myself in a Foreign country, fighting for something, I did not know that much about, no Bullys, but people that are trying to kill me, so reality sets in and that is self-preservation and that is what I believed in, not a hobby.
I will however agree with SHELDON'S reply and some other's.
Frank,striped
Where are we heading? It is impossible to say. Certainly the modeling (Model Building) part of hobbies in general seems to be on the decline. This "FACT" alone doesn't give me a very good outlook towards the future. Still, my abilities to predict the future have been so dismall that what I think is going to happen and what actually does happen, have been shown to consistantly be two different things.
The reality for me is, as long as I can enjoy the hobby the way I want to enjoy it for the short amount of time I have left to enjoy it, I don't give a dang about the future as it will be the way those people in the future, choose to enjoy it.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
mlehmanNot all clubs welcomed youngsters even back in the day, but the shrinking club scene is probably part of the cause here
Mike,I agree..The Bucyrus club has two or three father/son(s) members.
I know of a young lad way back in the 60s that visited the Columbus HO club faithfully every second Tuesday (that was visitors night) of the month and after awhile they allowed this young lad to run trains across the point to point layout..This went on for several months..One night the young lad was offered a membership and he joined at the age of 15 instead of the required age of 16.
I don't think clubs will do that today since most require a prospective member to be 18 and I heard of one club you had to be 21 for "insurance reasons"..
BTW..That young lad was me.
I gonna agree with Sheldon here. How to engage young people in the hobby has always been a challenge. I started young (13 yo), but like many fell away once I got out of school and started working. Lots of distractions for a young person, no matter their era or location. By the time I was 25, though, I was already starting to armchair things again and just over 30 when I made a commitment to narrowgauge and began working on the module that was the first piece of my current layout.
That said, the challenge of recruiting young people remains. Encourage them, invite them to ops sessions, give them old gear no longer needed that might help their porjects along. Don't tell them what or how to model, they'll figure that out, but try to give them the space and resources to support their efforts.
Not all clubs welcomed youngsters even back in the day, but the shrinking club scene is probably part of the cause here. While clubs often serve populations with limited space for home layouts, they also were great opportunities for young people to learn with a relatively low bar to entry that needs crossed -- then one enjoyed the privilege of access to a large layout beyond the means of most teenagers.With clubs few and far between or which have converted to modules and thus have no permanent home, it's that much harder for young people to participate unless special accomodations are made for their presence.
People, it is a hobby, it is meant to be fun, if you are not having fun then you can always find another hobby thats more to your liking, thats one of the nice things about a hobby. As for whether or not it is dying out I would have to say no, all hobbies go thru similar cycles, I used to fly RC planes, got out of it because it became to expensive for my wallet at the time (crashing to many of the dang things). Some think that the hobby is in decline, others see it as growing, I believe that it is holding its own pretty good right now but I think that it is probably going to lose a lot of people in the next several years, mostly in the way of those few remaining LHS's. This will be in large part due to the increasing number of those buying online. its unfortunate but that is in a way the only way to get some things now.
There is a smaller number of people getting into the hobby, I believe this is because of the rise in technology of video games. Why would any young kid want to PLAY with TOY TRAINS when he can spend the entire weekend saving Zelda? I think that some of those in the younger generation will come around, those with a bent for trains anyway, The hobby will survive, it has been in a decline before and will probably see it again but it will recover. Most people simply dont have the extra money for things now that they did before, I spent this last weekend in Phoenix visiting my brother there and we took a ride to a LHS/club layout, there was a large amount of older stuff there for sale. Some of it was what I would call Toy stuff but there was a large amount of very good quality older stuff to be had and the price was very reasonable on all of it.
I purchased two early 80's? roundhouse locomotive kits, And had a good long chat with the store owner and several other customers about just this same topic. We all agreed that this hobby will recover, it will take time but it will happen. Its important to keep in mind people that time always changes things, a lot has changed since I first got into this hobby and I suspect that a lot more will change by the time I leave it, but there will always be those who just like to play with trains.
Neil
I can agree with the bullying factor hurts some people. I took a ton of grief for being a model railroader as a teenager, but I always had the model railroad club I belong to to look foward to make that week better.
SooLine720 Yes, I would also say the hobby is declining. There aren't many teens in this hobby. But for more reasons than one can figure.
Yes, I would also say the hobby is declining. There aren't many teens in this hobby. But for more reasons than one can figure.
Every survey, in any place in time, that has ever been done, puts the average age of model railroaders somewhere between 34 and 44.
When I was a teen (and even preteen) model railroader back in the dark ages of the late 1960's and early 1970's it was not a poplular hobby amoung young people. I attended a high school in an upper middle class area, with over 3000 students and I assure you I knew enough of them to know there was only about a dozen of us interested in model trains.
Again, having worked in a hobby shop from age 14 until age 23, I'm not buying the "young people are future of the hobby" thing. Yes, I worked in the local hobby shop all through my high school years - I knew who at school playe with trains and who did not.
But as explained earlier, my version of the hobby is alive and well here and is my only concern.
Sheldon
Whether a kid stays interested depends on other people. Basically saying, a lot of teens THINK it's "uncool" and would rather spend a day on the cell phone, or playing Call of Duty, than a day building a layout. Of course, not many kids actually give the hobby a chance. Of course I think the hobby is a great one that is very interesting but some people don't, not trying to be negative. Another reason not many kids are in this hobby is because of "bullying." Though I'm not a victim of this, some schools have VERY mean people that like to harrass others because of their hobby. This accounts for the decline of kids. Like I mentioned before, these "bullies" never gave it a chance. They don't realise this is a great hobby that is productive and enjoyable. It is a scary reality that some people don't realise. I'm currently in high school and most of my friends know about my hobby and don't mind it. Sometimes the joke but it's never a big deal. But harrassment should NOT prevent you from enjoying a great hobby. Another reason for the lack of younger model railroaders is the cost of model railroading. The hobby is quite expensive not all people can get a magnificant layout, with lots of rolling stock. I hope this helps, and for all the younger folks that like model railroading, DON'T let other people influence your hobby. I also hope everyone knows that I'm not trying to be negative, I'm just informing you guys about this information.
-Khang Lu, University of Minnesota Railroad Club
ONR FANJust an observation. You long time forum members are constantly bringing up that threads like these cause grief on the forum. Sure they can but so far the posts have been informative. The only people complaining are the long time members who are on this forum everyday. Don't forget that not everyone has the time to be here everyday. I'm lucky if I have the time to surf the forum once every few weeks. Between running a business, the house, the wife and kids there really isn't much time left. Maybe easy up on the HERE WE GO AGAIN type posts? Not everyone was here the last time a thread like this was brought up.
This is where it all started, ONR.
Alton Junction
ONR FAN Like I've already said Rich, when you guys do that it's like the poster is being spanked for asking. It turns new people off the forum when they ask a simple question and get the HERE WE GO AGAIN post.
ONR, go back and reply my initial reply to the OP which was the 3rd reply on this thread.
I never said Here We Go Again or anything like that.
The reason that you continue to disparage me is because I responded to a reply that you made raising the issue of "old timers" saying Here We Go Again. You started all of this fuss, but now you are blaming it on others.
Rich
Catt There are a lot of kids at trainshows buying stuff and asking questions trying to learn from a group of old farts who can't find the time to answer their questions but can sure find the time to conplain that kids are not interested in trains anymore. If you really care about this hobby spend more time sharing it and less time complaining that it is dieing from lack of interest.
There are a lot of kids at trainshows buying stuff and asking questions trying to learn from a group of old farts who can't find the time to answer their questions but can sure find the time to conplain that kids are not interested in trains anymore.
If you really care about this hobby spend more time sharing it and less time complaining that it is dieing from lack of interest.
That about sums up my thoughts.
richhotrain ONR FAN Rich, I'm not trying to slam you guys. I can see how some topics could be annoying to the long time members if they are brought up over and over again but some topics we newbies do find interesting. What DCC system is the best is another one. As a newcomer to DCC I've found those threads that usually end up being a free for all and usually get locked are great sources of info. You old timers need to realize that just because you guys have been here a long time and have seen or done everything it doesn't mean everyone has. If you don't want to answer a simple question then why post here we go again. Wouldn't it be better just to not say anything? This forum is the property of Model Railroader, not you guys so you shouldn't dictate what can and can't be posted here. Thats all I'm saying............ I have only been in the hobby myself for 10 years so I am not who you think I seem to be. You're the guy who raised this issue, not me or any of the old timers, as you call them. What do you care if someone says, Not Again or Here We Go Again. Rich
ONR FAN Rich, I'm not trying to slam you guys. I can see how some topics could be annoying to the long time members if they are brought up over and over again but some topics we newbies do find interesting. What DCC system is the best is another one. As a newcomer to DCC I've found those threads that usually end up being a free for all and usually get locked are great sources of info. You old timers need to realize that just because you guys have been here a long time and have seen or done everything it doesn't mean everyone has. If you don't want to answer a simple question then why post here we go again. Wouldn't it be better just to not say anything? This forum is the property of Model Railroader, not you guys so you shouldn't dictate what can and can't be posted here. Thats all I'm saying............
Rich, I'm not trying to slam you guys. I can see how some topics could be annoying to the long time members if they are brought up over and over again but some topics we newbies do find interesting. What DCC system is the best is another one. As a newcomer to DCC I've found those threads that usually end up being a free for all and usually get locked are great sources of info. You old timers need to realize that just because you guys have been here a long time and have seen or done everything it doesn't mean everyone has. If you don't want to answer a simple question then why post here we go again. Wouldn't it be better just to not say anything? This forum is the property of Model Railroader, not you guys so you shouldn't dictate what can and can't be posted here. Thats all I'm saying............
I have only been in the hobby myself for 10 years so I am not who you think I seem to be.
You're the guy who raised this issue, not me or any of the old timers, as you call them.
What do you care if someone says, Not Again or Here We Go Again.
Like I've already said Rich, when you guys do that it's like the poster is being spanked for asking. It turns new people off the forum when they ask a simple question and get the HERE WE GO AGAIN post.
I think we're seeing a switch in focus on Modling, instead of kit building I think the modelers focus is on super detailing, especially weathering.
cmrproductsWHY - didn't you state that first - instead of complaining? BOB H -
If you ill check I have mention several times I have answers a lot of questions from teenagers during the week of the county fair from basic track laying to complicated DCC questions-where are these supposedly non interested teenagers finding their questions? They must have some interest in the hobby..
You will also see where I have stated time and again the cost of the hobby can be as much as you want it to be.That is my standard answer to those that ask about the cost of the hobby.
When I do answer questions I don't push the high dollar items like DCC or high end DCC/Sound locomotives like many insist on doing.
Catt Seems to me the folks that keep insisting that the hobby is dieing because young people are not interested need to open their eyes and ears.There are a lot of kids at trainshows buying stuff and asking questions trying to learn from a group of old farts who can't find the time to answer their questions but can sure find the time to conplain that kids are not interested in trains anymore. If you really care about this hobby spend more time sharing it and less time complaining that it is dieing from lack of interest.
Seems to me the folks that keep insisting that the hobby is dieing because young people are not interested need to open their eyes and ears.There are a lot of kids at trainshows buying stuff and asking questions trying to learn from a group of old farts who can't find the time to answer their questions but can sure find the time to conplain that kids are not interested in trains anymore.
Catt
I couldn't agree more with your statement!
Finally someone making some sense about this.
Share the HOBBY instead of complaining!
Although I feel that most on here find it easier to COMPLAIN than to do out and HELP others!
And don't suddenly get on here and state that you do help others
WHY - didn't you state that first - instead of complaining?
BOB H - Clarion, PA
richhotrain I just asked my cat, Gracie, if the model railroading hobby is thriving or dying. In doing so, I told her to meow if it is dying or remain silent if it is thriving. She gave me a big MEOW. There you have it. Rich
I just asked my cat, Gracie, if the model railroading hobby is thriving or dying.
In doing so, I told her to meow if it is dying or remain silent if it is thriving.
She gave me a big MEOW.
There you have it.
At long last we have a definitive independent study of the state of the hobby!!!
Paul
Yes,the hobby is going down quickly by the bow and you can already hear the bulkheads collapsing.
bolter9 well said! I come from a long family history of career contractors and builders. I have a 17 year career in web development and while it's been very rewarding, it's all vapor wear! I seek out hobbies like model railroading and cycling that have a physical, tactile nature.
well said! I come from a long family history of career contractors and builders. I have a 17 year career in web development and while it's been very rewarding, it's all vapor wear!
I seek out hobbies like model railroading and cycling that have a physical, tactile nature.
Hear! Hear!
I retired 4 years ago after 40 years in software development/maintenance. I doubt that any thing I worked on is still being used (or can even be found). The nature of the beast.
But I still have the first models I built 42 years ago. And the cars still work
Enjoy
BATMAN Then I asked him if he ever signed any of the virtual cities he had spent thousands of hours creating online. Sheepishly he said they have all disappeared because he didn't renew his account. Nothing to show for all those hours of dragging a mouse around I said. "Nope" was his answer.
Then I asked him if he ever signed any of the virtual cities he had spent thousands of hours creating online. Sheepishly he said they have all disappeared because he didn't renew his account. Nothing to show for all those hours of dragging a mouse around I said. "Nope" was his answer.
Jimmy_Braum...the hobby is alive for those who want to do it.
More than anything else written in this thread so far, Jimmy, your statement is proof positive that some folks spent a wee bit too much time wringing their hands over the future of our hobby. I think it's already safe in the hands of those who follow.
Okay I am going to say my input here. I am a 22 year old guy modeling the Pennsylvania railroad in the 1950's-with no dieseal. I love the steam locomotive and the past. While I do not have the disposable income most other modelers have, I save my money up, and buy what I can as I can( I also have guitar stuff as a second hobby). I love building kits,cars,etc-that;s my favorite part of the hobby. I am the youngest person in my model railroad club I belong to, but I just got another guy my age to join. We had a train show on Sunday, and even through a snowstorm, we still had probably over 200 people walk through the door of all ages (Half of normal-but then again snow storm). I saw a lot of young kids there enjoying the O scale modules, and every person walked out the door with a purchase, whether it was a locomotive, a lowly car, a building or even a book-the hobby is still alive with some people. In the past two years, the club I belong to increased to 16 members-granted a lot are middle age, but still the hobby is alive for those who want to do it.
bolter9There's sort of a cool factor that is growing with Getting back to handi work like knitting, woodworking, modeling, etc. a bit of the geek factor.
I just finished building a small piece of furniture for a special needs person. Something they needed that would have been a lot of money for them to have built commercially. I signed the underneath of it with my name and date. My dad built beautiful furniture that still is in use today in my house, my sisters house and my cousins house. You look underneath anything he built and it might say W.... B.... June 1932. My son was with me when I signed my masterpiece the way my dad did all those years before. He smiled and said "just like Grandpa eh dad". I said yep. Then I asked him if he ever signed any of the virtual cities he had spent thousands of hours creating online. Sheepishly he said they have all disappeared because he didn't renew his account. Nothing to show for all those hours of dragging a mouse around I said. "Nope" was his answer.
Both him and his sister 15 and 12 are spending less time on the computer and video games. My 12 year old daughter is knittng, oil painting, sewing and doing pottery. My son is also getting in to other things and I hope he finds his way to the trainroom.
As they grow their school work is almost all done on the computer. When people come home from work or school I think more screen time is becoming less attractive. I never limited my kids screen time as I thought it was better to just let them get it out of their system. There were times if I thought that was the right decision and I am now thinking it was.
I like to think hobbies like MRR were just going through a lull as the high tech world developed for all of us to discover over the past couple of decades. There is now a blur between work and pleasure in that domain. The excitment and newness is waining much like it did for the space program after the first two or three trips to the Moon. Hands on hobbies and pastimes have had and will continue to have a resurgence as people look for an escape.
Where I live the trainshows and trainstores have plenty of youth in them anytime I'm there. Just look at the copious amount of MRR product there is to buy, it wouldn't be there if someone wasn't buying it. But then what do I know, I still leave my old flip phone on the kitchen counter when I go out. My kids say "what if the car breaks down on you, what will you do then".
"Fix it" I say.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
blabride I seem to have taken the original posters intent totally different. I find myself wondering what things like onboard sound, PC interaction, the role of reality simulation might play in the layouts of the future. I have never thought much about the health of the industry. After all, there are people out there that still ride horses for a hobby. I am sure we can expect a model train industry for quite a while into the future. We do need some more specific threads about how technology will continue to influence Model Railroading in the future. I would love to eventually have sound systems and speakers available for my HO that sounds as good or better than some of the O and G systems out there. I also wonder where 3D printing may take the hobby. These are the things that will not only keep the hobby exciting but even relevant for young people in the future. As far as the affordability, its all relative. It all depends on what you want out of it. Some want to recreate a moment in time and do it as realistically as possible. Which can get very expensive, see Rod Stewarts layout in the new MR. Some just like the equipment and just want to sit back and watch em run no matter the era like myself. Looking at it statistically, some things in Model Railroading are actually cheaper now than they have ever been, considering inflation and increases in average wages and salaries. While some are more expensive. Just like everything else in the CPI. SB
I seem to have taken the original posters intent totally different. I find myself wondering what things like onboard sound, PC interaction, the role of reality simulation might play in the layouts of the future. I have never thought much about the health of the industry. After all, there are people out there that still ride horses for a hobby. I am sure we can expect a model train industry for quite a while into the future.
We do need some more specific threads about how technology will continue to influence Model Railroading in the future. I would love to eventually have sound systems and speakers available for my HO that sounds as good or better than some of the O and G systems out there.
I also wonder where 3D printing may take the hobby. These are the things that will not only keep the hobby exciting but even relevant for young people in the future.
As far as the affordability, its all relative. It all depends on what you want out of it. Some want to recreate a moment in time and do it as realistically as possible. Which can get very expensive, see Rod Stewarts layout in the new MR. Some just like the equipment and just want to sit back and watch em run no matter the era like myself. Looking at it statistically, some things in Model Railroading are actually cheaper now than they have ever been, considering inflation and increases in average wages and salaries. While some are more expensive. Just like everything else in the CPI.
SB
Don't hold your breath waiting for much better onboard sound in HO, the laws of physics as it relates to sound reproduction is a major limiting factor.
Your suggestion that we might examine where the hobby is going in terms of something other than the industry is interesting, but I think many of the reponses did address that. In fact, my earlier response reacted to exactly the kind of issues you bring up, although I did not call them out specificly.
Reality simulation? - like in computer games - no thanks not interested.
Sound? tried it, can't stand it in small scales like HO.
Computers - considered computerized block control and computerized CTC/signaling - decided the old fashioned way was cheaper, easier and more fun.
I do agree with your views on cost. On any kind of large scale, this has never been a hobby for the poor. Costs today are no better or worse overall then ever - I've been at this for 46 years and at one time worked in this business.
Again, what I mainly see is more splintered and widely diverse goals, methods and aproaches to this hobby, which frankly leave me with little in common with many others - hence my comment in the past that I am in a different hobby than many of you.
And sorry for the poor punctuation. Typing on my phone here...
I think there's a resurgance in 30s-40s age group for hobbies. a lot of folks in that age group (myself included at 41) have young families, good incomes and are looking for pastimes that get them off a computer. There's sort of a cool factor that is growing with Getting back to handi work like knitting, woodworking, modeling, etc. a bit of the geek factor.
couple that with the growth of technology and higher quality equipment and you have a pretty enticing Reasons to jump in and build something.
Regarding RTR, it's simply a matter of time. most of us barely have enough time to spend learning scenery and benchwork. RTR is lifesaver when there are too many other priorities in a day.
cost is relative, but overall reasonable compared to any high end hobby.
Where are we headed?
Worst case scenario.
Interest in the hobby falls off so much that most manufacturers go out of business and the ones that stay afloat have very limited offereings. If that happens, the hobby will probably be in much the same state it was in the 1940s and 1950s where there wasn't a lot being offered and hobbyists had to rely heavily on their scratchbuilding skills. Except that they will have the advantage of all the knowledge that has been accumulated for over a half century plus components that never were dreamed about before 1960.
In some form, the hobby will survive, even it is a very small niche of very passionate participants.
When I was young, I started collecting Beatles. But that, especially authentic items, quickly went into the stratosphere of $$$, especially after December 1980. So next it was Star Trek, which took a little longer but now with my fellow Boomers running the market, has also become expensive. Besides, I got tired of friends & family cocking an eyebrow (no, not that one) and asking, "You're HOW old?"...
So I reverted to my 1st childhood hobby, this one. Yes, there's boomers in this too, like my friend Jason over at Rapido; and it will be a while before I can aford a matched set of RTR CN F9A&Bs. But thanks to the hobby I have new skill sets, & can now airbrush & build models from scratch. I can even make complete meadows and mountains out of stuff that others might consider trash, like buiding insulation & furnace filters.
I may never be able to afford a Rivarossi Lehigh Black Diamond set. I can accept that. But just judging from the incredible plethora of new stock as evidenced in the pages of NRM, I'd say the hobby is thriving.
And - for the 'phonetic spellers' out there - it's spelled 'champagne'...
Interesting comments by all. The rancor is normal for such threads. For me, I don't much care where the hobby is in future. I'm in it now, I have been in it a while and have and will continue to enjoy it 'til I'm gone. If you're havin' fun that's what counts. To heck with the future of MRing. "Casting the bones" is just as valuable today as it was in 1155 A.D.
Richard
If I can't fix it, I can fix it so it can't be fixed
Hear! Hear! Can't let You guy's have all the fun!. But then again, ''I know nuttin.''
Striped, or is that, Stripe-ed.
mlehmanWe'd be a lot better off sharing tips on how to save a buck here and there, how you bashed something worthless into something useful, or how you managed to find a good deal on something that was otherwise out of reach of your wallet. All this and more will draw applause, instead of brick bats.
Hear! Hear! Standing ovation,whistling and cheering.
We need such a topic twice a year since there are many ways to save money and still buy the better detailed cars and locomotives.
ONR FAN Honestly, the way some of you guys respond to threads like this one turns off new members because its like we are getting spanked for bringing up a topic that you guys have already discussed a month or two ago.
Gidday, ".....month or two ago"??? Sometimes read, in some variation or other, weekly. Even as an optimist it could, if I let it, depress the spirits, and I occasionally think that someone persuing the forums for the first time could actually be turned off, coming to the conclusion that we're just a bunch of whingers here.
O.K so all forum members, within the forum rules have a right to get things off their chest, the same as I have the right to ignore such threads, but I'm with Mike on this.
"We'd be a lot better off sharing tips on how to save a buck here and there, how you bashed something worthless into something useful, or how you managed to find a good deal on something that was otherwise out of reach of your wallet."
"Where am I heading ??? to do some more work on my current project.
Cheers, the Bear, the still newish guy.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
BRAKIE mlehman or if you've just started and your dreams are way bigger than your pocketbook. Mike,I think a lot of modelers have champain taste with a beer pocketbook.
mlehman or if you've just started and your dreams are way bigger than your pocketbook.
Mike,I think a lot of modelers have champain taste with a beer pocketbook.
You've got a good point. Thing is, back when I used to drink, I could drink all the beer I wanted. Try that with champagne and you'll have one heck of a hangover.
In some sense, it's the marketing and editorial content in the model press that brings this on. Don't get me wrong. The journalists are doing exactly what they're supposed to do. Inform us of the latest and greatest and what's on the horizon. Help us to keep an edge on our game, yada, yada. And provide a place for all the juicy ads to meet those needs.
Some people misinterpret that as meaning they're supposed to buy everything brand new, latest cutting edge technology, whatever, or somehow you're just not doing your part to keep up with the Jones's and people will look down their noses at you.
Nothing could be further from the truth...unless you let RTR define your universe. If that's the case, then yes, bring your checkbook, but that's only if YOU want to go there. No whining either.
The rest of us are doing just fine, scrounging, saving, repainting, bashing, all that cool stuff people have always done to best deploy their resources. 98% of every model railroader who's ever lived was on a budget. Don't be fooled by the glossy pages or what's staring back at you from your iPad. Most of us have to sacrifice for our hobby and we don't buy every new thing that comes down the block.
And maybe that's why this grates on the nerves sometimes when people say it costs too much and we're all about ready to jump ship for slot cars or RC or [take your pick]. We'd be a lot better off sharing tips on how to save a buck here and there, how you bashed something worthless into something useful, or how you managed to find a good deal on something that was otherwise out of reach of your wallet. All this and more will draw applause, instead of brick bats.
Okay - I have read all your responses and I appreciated all the input.
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
I have no idea where it's going...but my young Son and I sure are enjoying the ride ! To me, that's what it's all about...FUN, spending quality time with family and/or friends and enjoying sometime away from lifes real worries. I have no idea where the hobby is headed outside of my humble home...but it is alive, well, and healthy INSIDE said home.
Enjoy and happy modeling to all!
Don.
mlehmanor if you've just started and your dreams are way bigger than your pocketbook.
ONR FAN Nope, I'm not complaining Rich. I understand that yes the same type of topic gets brought up from time to time but like I said, not everyone lives on this forum like some of you guys do. What might have been a hot or heated topic a month ago for you long time members wasn't for new members or members like myself that only visit a few times a month. Thats all I'm saying. Honestly, the way some of you guys respond to threads like this one turns off new members because its like we are getting spanked for bringing up a topic that you guys have already discussed a month or two ago. Why do you guys care so much about old topics being brought up again?
Nope, I'm not complaining Rich. I understand that yes the same type of topic gets brought up from time to time but like I said, not everyone lives on this forum like some of you guys do. What might have been a hot or heated topic a month ago for you long time members wasn't for new members or members like myself that only visit a few times a month. Thats all I'm saying. Honestly, the way some of you guys respond to threads like this one turns off new members because its like we are getting spanked for bringing up a topic that you guys have already discussed a month or two ago. Why do you guys care so much about old topics being brought up again?
ONR, it is not, per se, that we object to bringing up a topic already discussed a month or two ago. It is this specific topic, among a few others, that brings out the Here We Go Again replies. It just comes up again and again and again. And, you have been around here long enough yourself, so you know that.
Be that as it may, the OP has every right to bring it up again and everyone else has the right to say, Here We Go Again. So what? Why object? Why slam those of us who have been around long enough to see this topic come up again a dozen times?
ONR FANHonestly, the way some of you guys respond to threads like this one turns off new members because its like we are getting spanked for bringing up a topic that you guys have already discussed a month or two ago. Why do you guys care so much about old topics being brought up again?
ONR FAN,
I don't care if you discuss it or not. Most of these I ignore, but sometimes I'll step in and say my peace. And it's kind of harsh, which i hope you don't mind, as it's nothing personal.
I do often wonder why this hobby seems to attract so many new folks who right off the bat start worrying if it's dying or it's just too darn expensive. I mean, pick a different hobby if you're worrried about it dying under you like an old and wheezy horse or if you've just started and your dreams are way bigger than your pocketbook.
It actually wouldn't be so bad if it happened just once a month, but it's probably more like one a week.
If it's because you're not around to notice, then it usually is a good idea to read into a forum on just about any issue before you start asking deep questions. You're joining a community, so assess what others have said and consider what you might say that's new and original. Because it really is about having at least some minimal respect for what's come before if you're new enough to need to worry about such things.
I will pass along one piece of advice that may help...Rome wasn't built in a day. Neither is a good layout. If it all seems overwhelming right now, cool your jets, buy what really matters and start planning. Even if you have the bucks, you can't buy it all at once -- and then you'd be like the 80 pound boa constrictor than ate the 200 pound sheep -- you'd be stuck for awhile anyway.
So what's that mean? If you're really wanting to go railroading, start at it now, little by little. Most of us could never afford our layouts if we worried about the total price. It might upset the spouse, to boot. It's a long term endeavor, even if it's just a starter layout. Give it time. Your collection will grow. You'll eventually lay track, etc, etc.
Like everything really good in life, model railroading takes time and is not entirely defined by money. Education, marriage, a vlounteer commitment...all take time and effort. The money -- whether you're rich or poor -- should be somewhere further down that list of priorities. If it's not, rich or poor, you got into the hobby for the wrong reasons and should probably choose something else that suits you better.
Well, I only read a few of the responses, but I have long been of the opinion that the hobby of model railroading has evolved, splintered, diversified and expanded to the point that it really is not one hobby any more.
Maybe it never was, but it is even less so now.
And personally I only care about my version of it. I only have time for my version of it.
That version includes building models, running trains, creating realistic looking scenery, simulating real railroad operations to some degree.
What the rest of you do, what you buy, how many young people get interested in it, what the manufacturers make next, is all of only passing interest to me. I have enough kits, and tools, and materials to keep me busy for quite a while yet. And I see no real shortages of any thing else I might need or want - so it's all good for me.
Where are we heading?
If you're talking about the hobby, I don't know.
If you're talking about this thread, then here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfltikFvhWc
Andre
HaroldA A few days ago I got into a discussion about the future of model railroading. There were several postions on the topic which ranged across a broad spectrum of opinion. Now without revealing my take on the topic, I am interested in getting some feedback on what the forum thinks without getting into heated debate. So my questions are, where are heading as a hobby? Are we healthy and growing or heading for life support? I would really like to hear what you think.
A few days ago I got into a discussion about the future of model railroading. There were several postions on the topic which ranged across a broad spectrum of opinion. Now without revealing my take on the topic, I am interested in getting some feedback on what the forum thinks without getting into heated debate. So my questions are, where are heading as a hobby? Are we healthy and growing or heading for life support? I would really like to hear what you think.
The hobby is dying way down from what it once was but that's because there's so much more variety in things to do today than there once was but there will still always be a few railroaders around even fifty years from now that will be fighting over the old engines and rolling stock on auction sites like ebay that we own and enjoy today that may no longer be made by then. Time will tell...
Tracklayer
richhotrain BRAKIE richhotrain Now it sounds like you're complaining, newer member. Rich He may have a just complaint.. Is there any real need for "here we go again" type posts from the usual suspects? The solution is simple..Don't like the topic? Move on to other topics..Seems easy enough to me. Let MR moderators decide what is and what isn't necessary. Dunno. Why not let someone say, Here we go again. We do get the same issue repeatedly. Rich
BRAKIE richhotrain Now it sounds like you're complaining, newer member. Rich He may have a just complaint.. Is there any real need for "here we go again" type posts from the usual suspects? The solution is simple..Don't like the topic? Move on to other topics..Seems easy enough to me. Let MR moderators decide what is and what isn't necessary.
richhotrain Now it sounds like you're complaining, newer member. Rich
He may have a just complaint..
Is there any real need for "here we go again" type posts from the usual suspects?
The solution is simple..Don't like the topic? Move on to other topics..Seems easy enough to me.
Let MR moderators decide what is and what isn't necessary.
Dunno. Why not let someone say, Here we go again. We do get the same issue repeatedly.
Welll..Ok.
I guess you missed my reply when you stated the hobby was dying on page one..
That was just tooooo good to pass.
Yep, he seems to be a magnet for trouble.
Just having some fun with you Frank
Soo Line fan csxns Soo Line fan It's the weekend!!!! Big Al, AKA Parker Legend, returns: Chapter 1,876 Did he start this. No, I was referring to another individual who comes here and always manages to cause chaos. Not implying he is the op.
csxns Soo Line fan It's the weekend!!!! Big Al, AKA Parker Legend, returns: Chapter 1,876 Did he start this.
Soo Line fan It's the weekend!!!! Big Al, AKA Parker Legend, returns: Chapter 1,876
Did he start this.
No, I was referring to another individual who comes here and always manages to cause chaos. Not implying he is the op.
Jim, you must be talking about Frank.
Poeple have been saying this hobby is dying since the slot car craze of the 1960s. So far all have been proven wrong. Dumb topic. Next.
The hobby will continue to evolve. Might not be in the direction we want. Remember, change is a constant.
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
richhotrainNow it sounds like you're complaining, newer member. Rich
Now it sounds like you're complaining, newer member.
Well, my LHS just moved - into expanded quarters. So someone's buying this stuff!
But to echo other comments - they also carry a lot of RC stuff and model airplane supplies, so I've got a steady source of scale basswood & balsa...
Soo Line fanIt's the weekend!!!! Big Al, AKA Parker Legend, returns: Chapter 1,876
Russell
well at least this one didn't start off with bashing the young people, anywho the hobby is not dying.
on any given day I'd take my trains over my xbox, in fact I'm gonna get one of those AMB GN cabeese kits so I have something to do.
SP&S modeler, 1960's give or take a decade or two for some equipment.
http://www.youtube.com/user/SGTDUPREY?feature=guide
Gary DuPrey
N scale model railroader
The hobby is fine and there are more serious hobbyist than ever before. We are shrinking as a percentage of population but the numbers of us keep going up. The hobby shop is pretty much dead in most parts of the country but then that is true of a lot of retail types. True I miss the hanging arround the hobby shop chats but I can chat online, not the same but what can you do. The products available are amazing now but how much have prices really gone up, if you are careful and patient, the hobby can be quite cheap, if you pay retail, quite expencive.
JoeinPA Tom: Loved the cartoon. I wonder how many of us remeber Jackie Gleason and the "Honeymooners". Joe
Tom:
Loved the cartoon. I wonder how many of us remeber Jackie Gleason and the "Honeymooners".
Joe
Probably everyone on this thread who thinks the hobby is dying.
As for you Tom, one of these days, POW, right in the kisser!
Yea, we're dying out, Joe. (Doh! - Sorry! I had to bring it up, didn't I?)...
richhotrainTom, which is better, DC or DCC?
To the moon, Rich!...To the moon!
Soo Line fan Lets get ready to rumble............... DCC vs DC: Flat line or ride the wave. LHS vs Online Shopping: I want to save a buck-No I want to save my LHS. RTR vs Kit Built: So many choices, so much bickering. Ebay: I just got ripped off, cheated, burned, screwed over, disrespected, violated, etc, etc, etc by (insert ebayer here). State of the Hobby: It is dying, thriving or static.It's the weekend!!!! Big Al, AKA Parker Legend, returns: Chapter 1,876
Lets get ready to rumble...............
DCC vs DC: Flat line or ride the wave.
LHS vs Online Shopping: I want to save a buck-No I want to save my LHS.
RTR vs Kit Built: So many choices, so much bickering.
Ebay: I just got ripped off, cheated, burned, screwed over, disrespected, violated, etc, etc, etc by (insert ebayer here).
State of the Hobby: It is dying, thriving or static.It's the weekend!!!! Big Al, AKA Parker Legend, returns: Chapter 1,876
Soo Line fanLets get ready to rumble
Sorry! You don't sound like Mike Buffer..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpFITa9eYoQ
The cost-as-a-barrier-to-entry thing is hilarious to me.
Price out getting going with any hobby.
A couple years ago, I got hired at my first real grown up job (I was 29 at the time) and I decided I could finally afford more than one hobby. I'd always wanted to play hockey so I started to get equipment. I knew it was pretty expensive. I never finished getting all my equipment together because it was even more expensive than I'd estimated and I'd significantly under estimated the cost of ice time. In theory, you can reach a point where your layout is done and you have no additional expenses to reach a usable point. You don't have constant costs that you are always being obligated to pay in order to keep going. My brother shoots competitively. His hobby requires him to pay for going to the range and pay for ammo. He has no choice in that matter. He has few one-time costs. Model railroad has plenty of one time costs.
It's kinda like some folks like to toss a rotten piece of meat into a pool of sharks and watch the frenzy.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
cacole This topic has been beated to death on these forums every few months over the past years, now, so we really don't need to go over it all again. Arguing the point here solves absolutely nothing.
This topic has been beated to death on these forums every few months over the past years, now, so we really don't need to go over it all again. Arguing the point here solves absolutely nothing.
Yes it does. It's as productive a discussion as anything you'll find in Monty Python's Argument Clinic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
Then again, maybe it's not. Maybe it's just pining for the fjords. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npjOSLCR2hE
From what i have read, I could be the youngest in the hobby here to speak. I started my own layout when i was 15 and now 17 i am finishing my first of hopefully many layouts. I hope to even start a club where i live some day. I have always been facinated by looking at others model railroads and seeing the trains wander through tretorous scenery. Operation of such trains was only a dream at the time but a basement that belonged on an episode of Hoarders posed the perfect oportunity for me. If i cleaned the entire basement spotless, i could have some funding to start my first layout. After going through several hundred garbage bags, and 48 man hours of work, i was fortunate enough to start my layout. Two years later, here i am. I only have one other friend that has a small layout and nearly nobody has an interest in trains it seems like. As for the hobby, yes, unfortunately it is becoming a rich mans hobby. People starting off dont have extra money and the railroad doesnt have an impact on nearly as many families as it did "back in the day". Unfortunately, i dont think we have enough people like me to keep the hobby going. Its much easier to sit on a couch and be entharlled by a phone than to learn how to make benchwork and wire turnouts. I hope i am as wrong as can be.
~Michael
Ah, good morning. Another round of wailing, teeth gnashing, hair pulling and rending of clothes. Dire predictions made here. It's all made in China, costs too much, breaks too easy, rewards instant gratification and robs good ol' Murican workers of a decent life. Maybe it's all true. So what.
I've got a broken office calculator out in the shed. Got a little motor, a mess of gears, axles, and even some little guide wheels for the ink ribbon that have flanges. There's a bunch of steel in it's chassis, and a transformer to run it with. It's keyboard got fubared and that's why it got tossed. I shagged it from the trash. A hacksaw, files, hand drills, some strip steel and wood ties with slots for the strips to act as track and I got a home made railroad. Yes, it wouldn't be instant, easy or look "realistic". But that didn't stop the early guys. They wanted to railroad. We want to railroad. Are we not men? If it all (the commercial side of the hobby) ended tomorrow, would our railroading. I think not.
Carry on gents......I shall enjoy the discussion as always
Lou
tstage Hergy how many times are we going to have this philosophical discussion? As often as people feel the need to rehash this topic ad nauseum.
Hergy how many times are we going to have this philosophical discussion?
As often as people feel the need to rehash this topic ad nauseum.
Tom, which is better, DC or DCC?
Mike pretty well nailed it. I don't know whether the hobby in general will decline. I really only care whether MY hobby declines. I hope to continue with it for a long time. For now, there are lots of new folks who come on the forums with questions every day. The hobby will continue to exist as long as any hobbyists are around to pursue it. Beyond that, is it sensible to worry about it?
Hergyhow many times are we going to have this philosophical discussion?
Hergy We all know that any and every decline in the hobby and the price increases and yada yada yada has been caused by the demise of the BB line. :) Geez, how many times are we going to have this philosophical discussion?
We all know that any and every decline in the hobby and the price increases and yada yada yada has been caused by the demise of the BB line. :) Geez, how many times are we going to have this philosophical discussion?
Apparently many many more times.
In the near term, I think the hobby will thrive. Baby boomers, who I am guessing are the core of the of the hobby participants are retiring and have the disposable income to keep up demand. Long term is another matter. As we begin to tip over, are there going to be enough younger model railroaders to take our place? Forgive me if I don't spend a lot of time worrying about that.
I keep hearing that the LHS is going bye-bye. I've been hearing that for years but the anecotal evidence says otherwise. Although I moved out of Columbus, OH in 2001, I still frequent the LHSes there. There are three LHSes within walking distance of each other in north Columbus. The Train Station has been there since the 1970s and Hobbyland goes back to the 1960s. Robbie's Hobbies opened a few years ago.
We sometimes forget that for many LHSes, model railroading is just a portion of their business. While some are exclusively or primarily RR oriented, others carry lines that are more appealing to younger hobbyists who could keep them in business even if the RR market declines. Maybe they will devote less space to RR, but that doesn't mean they will abandon it altogether. As long as there is demand, someone will be selling it.
In the near term I think the hobby will remain status quo, however in the long term I think it will decline. The baby boomers will sustain the hobby for a while. Generation Xers and beyond are at an economic disadvantage to start their own layouts since their are burdened with college debts and less prospects for higher paying jobs. I hope I am wrong about this. The amount and quality of the products available have never been better then now, and the resources available was unheard of a generation ago. If a generation Xer is fortunate enough to pay off his debts, afford a house and maintain a stable job then oppurtunity to start a new layout is very exciting.
mlehmanIf RTR is causing that burr under your saddle to chafe, then there are lots of options beyond saying it's a "rich man's hobby." If you got a VW budget, do you waste your time on frustration that you can't afford a Mercedes? Not unless you want to keep walking everywhere...just saying. This hobby is exactly what YOU make it. If it's just price-whining, in it's various permutations, well, that's your problem, but it's not the death of the hobby.
This hobby is exactly what YOU make it. If it's just price-whining, in it's various permutations, well, that's your problem, but it's not the death of the hobby.
Mike, well said - re: the burr comment et al. I'd almost think some folks have an insatiable urge to rain on peoples parades. I can't really add anything to what you said, other than bravo. I wonder if people who start these topics already know they tend to devolve into what we've seen above? If not, maybe it should be part of the forum rules people should be forced to read so they are 'aware' of the age old debates that seem to never die.
BRAKIEtime on other aspects of the hobby, which are by necessity "do it yourself", like building benchwork, wiring, scenery, building, track laying etc. Well,I'm no longer sure about that. If one has enough dineros in his pockets one can have a custom layout build..
Well,I'm no longer sure about that. If one has enough dineros in his pockets one can have a custom layout build..
Have you checked the prices it costs to have a custom layout built? Yeah... you would need a lot more dinero's than most ordinary people will ever have. Rich people have always been able to pay people to do things for them. That has little effect on the hobby would be my guess.
riogrande5761 It allows us to spend time on other aspects of the hobby, which are by necessity "do it yourself", like building benchwork, wiring, scenery, building, track laying etc.
I'll have to echo Larry's comments, the hobby seems to be doing ok. It's morphing with the times.
mobilman44 Ha, I would bet the RR that this will get into a heated debate!
Ha, I would bet the RR that this will get into a heated debate!
It looks like you are going to make your comment above into a self fulfilling prophecy and help this topic get into a heated debate - see last part of my post. Are you enjoying yourself?
IMO - the number of participants is and has been on the decline. Gone are the days where a toy train circled every Christmas tree and was on every boy's (and some girls) list.
I can remember as a kid looking at hobby products in the windows thinking I could never afford those thigns. Sounds like things are very similar now as back in the 60's and 70's. Model Railroading has always been expensive. And if your going to talk about the increase in prices - many have pointed out that adjusted for inflation, prices aren't off that much from 60's, 70's and 80's prices.
The LHS is rapidly becoming a thing of the past.
I heard an NPR report on the radio a few days ago that brick and mortor stores of all kinds are on the decline with online ordering. The traditional mall was part of the report, and they are on the decline. So the LHS trend is part of the trend to more online - which is no surprose.
Another trend (I find it disturbing but that is just me) is the decline of kits and "do it yourself" aspects of the hobby. Of course this goes along with the general trend of our society, whereas the theme is "I want it all, I want it now, and I want it done for me - and I'll charge it"......
You make it sound like the RTR trend in model trains is a bad thing. For some reason you have to cast buyers of RTR equipment in a selfish and negative light. It's comments like these that are completely unnecessary and send threads "south".
Let me offer a "positive" thing about HQ RTR train models. It allows us to spend time on other aspects of the hobby, which are by necessity "do it yourself", like building benchwork, wiring, scenery, building, track laying etc.
For some reason I keep repeating these things but they fail to sink in for some people and they just accuse hobbiests of "I want it all, I want it now, and I want it done for me". Then you say "enjoy". Well, inspite of the negativity that seems to permeate these topics, I will try to enjoy the hobby.
As for the future of the hobby, it will take care of itself. Despite all the handwringing this topic engenders, no one is gonna come around and confiscate your trains. If you're well on your way to old guy status, like most of us, you're working out of a 40 year in the making stash of hobby supplies. That's probably enough to last you another 20 or 30 years and after that, it won't matter, will it?
Looking at the quantity and quality of new models hitting the market, there really has never been a better time for the hobby. Period. Go ahead, look at those old MRs and ask yourself, "If you could be picked up by the time machine and dropped anywhere, when would it be?"
And no, even with a time machine, you don't get the current quality of models at 1970 prices. That's a fantasy some have and use to beat this question to death. Get over it and come back from la-la land for some real modeling.
And it's almost always the price question that's at the root of such speculation. You can get into this hobby at whatever price point you can afford. No, you won't have the latest and greatest on a budget, but you can have just as much fun -- if you don't spend it obsessing about what you could have if only you were wealthy. Again, look at those old MRs. You always had to pay more for state of the art or highly detailed models. Haven't these people heard of brass? That used to be the go-to whipping boy for these sorts of anxieties. Now it's RTR anything.
Whoever heard of equipping your entire layout with nothing but brass? If RTR is causing that burr under your saddle to chafe, then there are lots of options beyond saying it's a "rich man's hobby." If you got a VW budget, do you waste your time on frustration that you can't afford a Mercedes? Not unless you want to keep walking everywhere...just saying.
As far as technology and model railroading equipment, things could not be better. But, I fear that the hobby may be doomed like the dinosaurs looking for a tar pit. There are not enough new people entering the hobby. Especially, young folks. Those of us above the age of 60 years old are literally dying off. Who is going to take our place. We need new members which will help continue the hobby. But the more people buying tools, kits, track, locotives, etc. the cheaper prices will be and the more of an incentive to come up with new products.
Craig North Carolina
There are forces at work reducing the number of hobbyists.
First, there are more options for leisure/entertainment dollar time and money.
Second, there is a decline in do-it-yourself/craft skills. With cheaper labor overseas, many things people used to fix are cheaper to replace. Also, many things have electronic components that make repair difficult or impossible. Even though there is a lot of RTR, the hobby still requires lots of building - benchwork, roadbed, trackwork, wiring, scenery, etc. So for a lot of folks they just don't want to take it on.
Third, Decline of the Middle Class. Not to get into political arguments, but the hobby population is tied to the health of the middle class.
Fourth, lack of exposure. The number of hobby stores are decreasing. Toy stores don't carry scale trains any more. Big box stores like Walmart and others don't carry them either.
Fifth, focus on the expensive not the affordable. While the hobby has never been cheap, the model press focuses on large layouts, museum quality models, and/or expensive components like DCC. So people get turned off by the high cost assuming they can't afford the hobby.
Overall I don't expect to see much increase in the number of hobbyists and probably some decline.
Within the hobby itself:
I expect the Big 3 - HO, N, 3-rail O gauge will continue to dominate. Other scales will continue to a lesser extent.
RTR will continue to expand until overseas labor costs rise, at that point kits will make a comeback but at RTR prices. RTR will continue but out of the reach of most hobbyists.
Computer technology for 3D printing, lasers, etc. will improve to where on demand models for specific prototypes will be possible. And eventually normal.
Control systems will continue to improve and software/hardware to advance allowing better operations and more realistic automated control. Computer operators will replace human operators when needed to make up a full operating session.
The cell phone is todays "hobby".
This thread will no doubt end like all the other threads have about the same topic. I agree, it's been beatin' to death...but I'm sure a few will give it another whack anyhow.
Tom
In my opinion, it's the best of times and it's the worst of times.
The Good:
The quality and level of detail on models has risen drastically. Better materials for scenery construction have come along. Electronics have allow us to operate our layouts more realistically. 3D printing is opening ope exciting new avenues for making models.
The Bad:
The LHS is in a terminal decline. The price of the hobby has increased. However I don't think the cost has risen as much as people think because you have to adjust for inflation. Fewer young people seem to be interested in the hobby. Be some of us are still getting involved; I volunteer with a bunch of them at the railroad museum.
As for us younger people not being interested in scratch-building and super detailing. The fact is many of us haven't been i the hobby as long as some of the more experienced modelers and many of us simply aren't there yet in terms of that. You've got to crawl before you walk. I personally cut my teeth on Cornerstone kits before moving on to more advanced stuff. Also, 3D printing may be my generation's scratch building. Although it requires a different skill set, it still requires the same high level of skill and patience as building a model from scratch.
Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad in N Scale.
www.prr-nscale.blogspot.com
Don't know where we're headed, or why we're in this handbasket.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
Nice to hear from a relative newbie (ONR Fan). Frankly, folks like him are the future of the hobby.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Oh yeah, like that's not gonna happen. LOL
Model railroading, as a hobby, is dying !
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Should the hobby have a standard type funeral or a New Orleans type?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajHottEhREs
Many hobbies/activities are in decline because younger people today are more interested in modern activities or more ready-to-use than construction oriented.
If the number of modelers decline to the point where the market is too small to support the number of venders we have today, modelers will have to scratch build more as modelers did in the 40s and 50s (look at MR article titles from those years). Modelers will have to scratch or kitbash locomotives, rolling stock and structures. Hand lay track and turnouts. Build there own electronics (e.g. C/MRI). Many modelers do this today.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
HaroldA Now without revealing my take on the topic, I am interested in getting some feedback on what the forum thinks without getting into heated debate. So my questions are, where are heading as a hobby?
Now without revealing my take on the topic, I am interested in getting some feedback on what the forum thinks without getting into heated debate. So my questions are, where are heading as a hobby?
But while the numbers of participants have dropped, the hobby will always be around, for there are many folks attracted to "running something" - be it model trains, cars, boats, or planes.
The hobby components have improved significantly over the years, but of course this has come at a cost - and the "entry fee" for the hobby has gone up significantly. Thus, the cost alone will drive out some newbies, but perhaps that will be offset by those interested in the electronics aspect of the hobby.
The LHS is rapidly becoming a thing of the past. There will always be a few, but nowhere near what was in the past. Of course that is offset by the online shops, which allows the hobbyist to sit in his armchair - be it in Chicago or somewhere in the wilds of west Texas, and buy most anything at fairly reasonable prices.
Hey, the above is just my opinion - and I'm only giving it because the OP asked. If you agree, fine. If you don't, that's fine too. ENJOY !!!!
Overall I think the hobby is still strong and I've notice a lot of young faces at the last three train shows I went to.
I believe we will see some hobby shifts in the coming years some good and some not so good for some.
At the current rate Bachmann locomotives may become the new "Blue Box" locomotive for those with limited budgets.