richhotrainTom, which is better, DC or DCC?
To the moon, Rich!...To the moon!
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Soo Line fan Lets get ready to rumble............... DCC vs DC: Flat line or ride the wave. LHS vs Online Shopping: I want to save a buck-No I want to save my LHS. RTR vs Kit Built: So many choices, so much bickering. Ebay: I just got ripped off, cheated, burned, screwed over, disrespected, violated, etc, etc, etc by (insert ebayer here). State of the Hobby: It is dying, thriving or static.It's the weekend!!!! Big Al, AKA Parker Legend, returns: Chapter 1,876
Lets get ready to rumble...............
DCC vs DC: Flat line or ride the wave.
LHS vs Online Shopping: I want to save a buck-No I want to save my LHS.
RTR vs Kit Built: So many choices, so much bickering.
Ebay: I just got ripped off, cheated, burned, screwed over, disrespected, violated, etc, etc, etc by (insert ebayer here).
State of the Hobby: It is dying, thriving or static.It's the weekend!!!! Big Al, AKA Parker Legend, returns: Chapter 1,876
Alton Junction
Soo Line fanLets get ready to rumble
Sorry! You don't sound like Mike Buffer..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpFITa9eYoQ
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
The cost-as-a-barrier-to-entry thing is hilarious to me.
Price out getting going with any hobby.
A couple years ago, I got hired at my first real grown up job (I was 29 at the time) and I decided I could finally afford more than one hobby. I'd always wanted to play hockey so I started to get equipment. I knew it was pretty expensive. I never finished getting all my equipment together because it was even more expensive than I'd estimated and I'd significantly under estimated the cost of ice time. In theory, you can reach a point where your layout is done and you have no additional expenses to reach a usable point. You don't have constant costs that you are always being obligated to pay in order to keep going. My brother shoots competitively. His hobby requires him to pay for going to the range and pay for ammo. He has no choice in that matter. He has few one-time costs. Model railroad has plenty of one time costs.
It's kinda like some folks like to toss a rotten piece of meat into a pool of sharks and watch the frenzy.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
cacole This topic has been beated to death on these forums every few months over the past years, now, so we really don't need to go over it all again. Arguing the point here solves absolutely nothing.
This topic has been beated to death on these forums every few months over the past years, now, so we really don't need to go over it all again. Arguing the point here solves absolutely nothing.
Yes it does. It's as productive a discussion as anything you'll find in Monty Python's Argument Clinic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
Then again, maybe it's not. Maybe it's just pining for the fjords. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npjOSLCR2hE
Andre
Jim
HaroldA A few days ago I got into a discussion about the future of model railroading. There were several postions on the topic which ranged across a broad spectrum of opinion. Now without revealing my take on the topic, I am interested in getting some feedback on what the forum thinks without getting into heated debate. So my questions are, where are heading as a hobby? Are we healthy and growing or heading for life support? I would really like to hear what you think.
A few days ago I got into a discussion about the future of model railroading. There were several postions on the topic which ranged across a broad spectrum of opinion. Now without revealing my take on the topic, I am interested in getting some feedback on what the forum thinks without getting into heated debate. So my questions are, where are heading as a hobby? Are we healthy and growing or heading for life support? I would really like to hear what you think.
From what i have read, I could be the youngest in the hobby here to speak. I started my own layout when i was 15 and now 17 i am finishing my first of hopefully many layouts. I hope to even start a club where i live some day. I have always been facinated by looking at others model railroads and seeing the trains wander through tretorous scenery. Operation of such trains was only a dream at the time but a basement that belonged on an episode of Hoarders posed the perfect oportunity for me. If i cleaned the entire basement spotless, i could have some funding to start my first layout. After going through several hundred garbage bags, and 48 man hours of work, i was fortunate enough to start my layout. Two years later, here i am. I only have one other friend that has a small layout and nearly nobody has an interest in trains it seems like. As for the hobby, yes, unfortunately it is becoming a rich mans hobby. People starting off dont have extra money and the railroad doesnt have an impact on nearly as many families as it did "back in the day". Unfortunately, i dont think we have enough people like me to keep the hobby going. Its much easier to sit on a couch and be entharlled by a phone than to learn how to make benchwork and wire turnouts. I hope i am as wrong as can be.
~Michael
Ah, good morning. Another round of wailing, teeth gnashing, hair pulling and rending of clothes. Dire predictions made here. It's all made in China, costs too much, breaks too easy, rewards instant gratification and robs good ol' Murican workers of a decent life. Maybe it's all true. So what.
I've got a broken office calculator out in the shed. Got a little motor, a mess of gears, axles, and even some little guide wheels for the ink ribbon that have flanges. There's a bunch of steel in it's chassis, and a transformer to run it with. It's keyboard got fubared and that's why it got tossed. I shagged it from the trash. A hacksaw, files, hand drills, some strip steel and wood ties with slots for the strips to act as track and I got a home made railroad. Yes, it wouldn't be instant, easy or look "realistic". But that didn't stop the early guys. They wanted to railroad. We want to railroad. Are we not men? If it all (the commercial side of the hobby) ended tomorrow, would our railroading. I think not.
Carry on gents......I shall enjoy the discussion as always
Lou
tstage Hergy how many times are we going to have this philosophical discussion? As often as people feel the need to rehash this topic ad nauseum.
Hergy how many times are we going to have this philosophical discussion?
As often as people feel the need to rehash this topic ad nauseum.
Tom, which is better, DC or DCC?
Rich
Mike pretty well nailed it. I don't know whether the hobby in general will decline. I really only care whether MY hobby declines. I hope to continue with it for a long time. For now, there are lots of new folks who come on the forums with questions every day. The hobby will continue to exist as long as any hobbyists are around to pursue it. Beyond that, is it sensible to worry about it?
Hergyhow many times are we going to have this philosophical discussion?
Hergy We all know that any and every decline in the hobby and the price increases and yada yada yada has been caused by the demise of the BB line. :) Geez, how many times are we going to have this philosophical discussion?
We all know that any and every decline in the hobby and the price increases and yada yada yada has been caused by the demise of the BB line. :) Geez, how many times are we going to have this philosophical discussion?
Apparently many many more times.
In the near term, I think the hobby will thrive. Baby boomers, who I am guessing are the core of the of the hobby participants are retiring and have the disposable income to keep up demand. Long term is another matter. As we begin to tip over, are there going to be enough younger model railroaders to take our place? Forgive me if I don't spend a lot of time worrying about that.
I keep hearing that the LHS is going bye-bye. I've been hearing that for years but the anecotal evidence says otherwise. Although I moved out of Columbus, OH in 2001, I still frequent the LHSes there. There are three LHSes within walking distance of each other in north Columbus. The Train Station has been there since the 1970s and Hobbyland goes back to the 1960s. Robbie's Hobbies opened a few years ago.
We sometimes forget that for many LHSes, model railroading is just a portion of their business. While some are exclusively or primarily RR oriented, others carry lines that are more appealing to younger hobbyists who could keep them in business even if the RR market declines. Maybe they will devote less space to RR, but that doesn't mean they will abandon it altogether. As long as there is demand, someone will be selling it.
In the near term I think the hobby will remain status quo, however in the long term I think it will decline. The baby boomers will sustain the hobby for a while. Generation Xers and beyond are at an economic disadvantage to start their own layouts since their are burdened with college debts and less prospects for higher paying jobs. I hope I am wrong about this. The amount and quality of the products available have never been better then now, and the resources available was unheard of a generation ago. If a generation Xer is fortunate enough to pay off his debts, afford a house and maintain a stable job then oppurtunity to start a new layout is very exciting.
mlehmanIf RTR is causing that burr under your saddle to chafe, then there are lots of options beyond saying it's a "rich man's hobby." If you got a VW budget, do you waste your time on frustration that you can't afford a Mercedes? Not unless you want to keep walking everywhere...just saying. This hobby is exactly what YOU make it. If it's just price-whining, in it's various permutations, well, that's your problem, but it's not the death of the hobby.
This hobby is exactly what YOU make it. If it's just price-whining, in it's various permutations, well, that's your problem, but it's not the death of the hobby.
Mike, well said - re: the burr comment et al. I'd almost think some folks have an insatiable urge to rain on peoples parades. I can't really add anything to what you said, other than bravo. I wonder if people who start these topics already know they tend to devolve into what we've seen above? If not, maybe it should be part of the forum rules people should be forced to read so they are 'aware' of the age old debates that seem to never die.
BRAKIEtime on other aspects of the hobby, which are by necessity "do it yourself", like building benchwork, wiring, scenery, building, track laying etc. Well,I'm no longer sure about that. If one has enough dineros in his pockets one can have a custom layout build..
Well,I'm no longer sure about that. If one has enough dineros in his pockets one can have a custom layout build..
Have you checked the prices it costs to have a custom layout built? Yeah... you would need a lot more dinero's than most ordinary people will ever have. Rich people have always been able to pay people to do things for them. That has little effect on the hobby would be my guess.
riogrande5761 It allows us to spend time on other aspects of the hobby, which are by necessity "do it yourself", like building benchwork, wiring, scenery, building, track laying etc.
I'll have to echo Larry's comments, the hobby seems to be doing ok. It's morphing with the times.
mobilman44 Ha, I would bet the RR that this will get into a heated debate!
Ha, I would bet the RR that this will get into a heated debate!
It looks like you are going to make your comment above into a self fulfilling prophecy and help this topic get into a heated debate - see last part of my post. Are you enjoying yourself?
IMO - the number of participants is and has been on the decline. Gone are the days where a toy train circled every Christmas tree and was on every boy's (and some girls) list.
I can remember as a kid looking at hobby products in the windows thinking I could never afford those thigns. Sounds like things are very similar now as back in the 60's and 70's. Model Railroading has always been expensive. And if your going to talk about the increase in prices - many have pointed out that adjusted for inflation, prices aren't off that much from 60's, 70's and 80's prices.
The LHS is rapidly becoming a thing of the past.
I heard an NPR report on the radio a few days ago that brick and mortor stores of all kinds are on the decline with online ordering. The traditional mall was part of the report, and they are on the decline. So the LHS trend is part of the trend to more online - which is no surprose.
Another trend (I find it disturbing but that is just me) is the decline of kits and "do it yourself" aspects of the hobby. Of course this goes along with the general trend of our society, whereas the theme is "I want it all, I want it now, and I want it done for me - and I'll charge it"......
You make it sound like the RTR trend in model trains is a bad thing. For some reason you have to cast buyers of RTR equipment in a selfish and negative light. It's comments like these that are completely unnecessary and send threads "south".
Let me offer a "positive" thing about HQ RTR train models. It allows us to spend time on other aspects of the hobby, which are by necessity "do it yourself", like building benchwork, wiring, scenery, building, track laying etc.
For some reason I keep repeating these things but they fail to sink in for some people and they just accuse hobbiests of "I want it all, I want it now, and I want it done for me". Then you say "enjoy". Well, inspite of the negativity that seems to permeate these topics, I will try to enjoy the hobby.
As for the future of the hobby, it will take care of itself. Despite all the handwringing this topic engenders, no one is gonna come around and confiscate your trains. If you're well on your way to old guy status, like most of us, you're working out of a 40 year in the making stash of hobby supplies. That's probably enough to last you another 20 or 30 years and after that, it won't matter, will it?
Looking at the quantity and quality of new models hitting the market, there really has never been a better time for the hobby. Period. Go ahead, look at those old MRs and ask yourself, "If you could be picked up by the time machine and dropped anywhere, when would it be?"
And no, even with a time machine, you don't get the current quality of models at 1970 prices. That's a fantasy some have and use to beat this question to death. Get over it and come back from la-la land for some real modeling.
And it's almost always the price question that's at the root of such speculation. You can get into this hobby at whatever price point you can afford. No, you won't have the latest and greatest on a budget, but you can have just as much fun -- if you don't spend it obsessing about what you could have if only you were wealthy. Again, look at those old MRs. You always had to pay more for state of the art or highly detailed models. Haven't these people heard of brass? That used to be the go-to whipping boy for these sorts of anxieties. Now it's RTR anything.
Whoever heard of equipping your entire layout with nothing but brass? If RTR is causing that burr under your saddle to chafe, then there are lots of options beyond saying it's a "rich man's hobby." If you got a VW budget, do you waste your time on frustration that you can't afford a Mercedes? Not unless you want to keep walking everywhere...just saying.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
As far as technology and model railroading equipment, things could not be better. But, I fear that the hobby may be doomed like the dinosaurs looking for a tar pit. There are not enough new people entering the hobby. Especially, young folks. Those of us above the age of 60 years old are literally dying off. Who is going to take our place. We need new members which will help continue the hobby. But the more people buying tools, kits, track, locotives, etc. the cheaper prices will be and the more of an incentive to come up with new products.
Craig North Carolina
There are forces at work reducing the number of hobbyists.
First, there are more options for leisure/entertainment dollar time and money.
Second, there is a decline in do-it-yourself/craft skills. With cheaper labor overseas, many things people used to fix are cheaper to replace. Also, many things have electronic components that make repair difficult or impossible. Even though there is a lot of RTR, the hobby still requires lots of building - benchwork, roadbed, trackwork, wiring, scenery, etc. So for a lot of folks they just don't want to take it on.
Third, Decline of the Middle Class. Not to get into political arguments, but the hobby population is tied to the health of the middle class.
Fourth, lack of exposure. The number of hobby stores are decreasing. Toy stores don't carry scale trains any more. Big box stores like Walmart and others don't carry them either.
Fifth, focus on the expensive not the affordable. While the hobby has never been cheap, the model press focuses on large layouts, museum quality models, and/or expensive components like DCC. So people get turned off by the high cost assuming they can't afford the hobby.
Overall I don't expect to see much increase in the number of hobbyists and probably some decline.
Within the hobby itself:
I expect the Big 3 - HO, N, 3-rail O gauge will continue to dominate. Other scales will continue to a lesser extent.
RTR will continue to expand until overseas labor costs rise, at that point kits will make a comeback but at RTR prices. RTR will continue but out of the reach of most hobbyists.
Computer technology for 3D printing, lasers, etc. will improve to where on demand models for specific prototypes will be possible. And eventually normal.
Control systems will continue to improve and software/hardware to advance allowing better operations and more realistic automated control. Computer operators will replace human operators when needed to make up a full operating session.
Enjoy
Paul
The cell phone is todays "hobby".
This thread will no doubt end like all the other threads have about the same topic. I agree, it's been beatin' to death...but I'm sure a few will give it another whack anyhow.
Tom
In my opinion, it's the best of times and it's the worst of times.
The Good:
The quality and level of detail on models has risen drastically. Better materials for scenery construction have come along. Electronics have allow us to operate our layouts more realistically. 3D printing is opening ope exciting new avenues for making models.
The Bad:
The LHS is in a terminal decline. The price of the hobby has increased. However I don't think the cost has risen as much as people think because you have to adjust for inflation. Fewer young people seem to be interested in the hobby. Be some of us are still getting involved; I volunteer with a bunch of them at the railroad museum.
As for us younger people not being interested in scratch-building and super detailing. The fact is many of us haven't been i the hobby as long as some of the more experienced modelers and many of us simply aren't there yet in terms of that. You've got to crawl before you walk. I personally cut my teeth on Cornerstone kits before moving on to more advanced stuff. Also, 3D printing may be my generation's scratch building. Although it requires a different skill set, it still requires the same high level of skill and patience as building a model from scratch.
Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad in N Scale.
www.prr-nscale.blogspot.com
Don't know where we're headed, or why we're in this handbasket.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
Nice to hear from a relative newbie (ONR Fan). Frankly, folks like him are the future of the hobby.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Oh yeah, like that's not gonna happen. LOL
Model railroading, as a hobby, is dying !
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Should the hobby have a standard type funeral or a New Orleans type?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajHottEhREs