How 'bout option #3: Would you be willing to pay less for a highly detailed kit made in the US?
Absolutely! - Bring on the kits!
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tstageHow 'bout option #3: Would you be willing to pay less for a highly detailed kit made in the US?Absolutely! - Bring on the kits!
I'll second that.
Given that I'm in HOn3, I have the option of buying highly-detailed, Chinese-made rolling stock or (up to 50%) less for a highly-detailed kit made in China. However, I still think that a US-made version of the same kits would cost as much as the Chinese-made RTR. The factors that make China such a cheap manufacturing area (labour costs, etc.) are probably the same factors that make American-made more expensive.
The Location: Forests of the Pacific Northwest, OregonThe Year: 1948The Scale: On30The Blog: http://bvlcorr.tumblr.com
You folks in the US are really lucky guys, as the US based importers seem to pass on the cost benefit out of a production in China into the market. This is not the case in Germany, where Chinese made locos cost to the tune of up to $ 1,000 - I don´t talk brass or hybrids!
How much would I pay? Not more than I can afford - and I can afford only very little. As most of the production has already been transferred to China, I don´t think we have the option to source locally, at whatever price.
Thanks to my choice of prototype and modeling scale, I have a totally different take on your questions:
dm9538 Let's say we pay on average about $25 to $35 for an RTR freight car with a high level of detail that is produced largely China.
Let's say we pay on average about $25 to $35 for an RTR freight car with a high level of detail that is produced largely China.
There will be snowball fights in Hades before any Chinese manufacturer produces ANYTHING for my prototype!
Question 1 Would you pay more for the same car same level of detail produced entirely in the US? If so how much more?
J. Lucifer Satan will buy a rotary snowplow before any American manufacturer produces ANYTHING for my prototype!
Question 2 Would you still pay the same $25 to $35 for the same car produced in the US but with less detail. how much less detail I'm not really sure.
Having had the choice (40+ years ago) of buying some very nice RTR cars at price 4X, some very nice kits at price 2.5X and some little tin boxes (of approximately correct general dimensions and overall appearance) on wheels at price X, I bought the little tin boxes on wheels. I was looking for pieces for a game called, 'operation.' Museum quality modeling was NOT (and still is not) essential to the game.
Then and now, the only source of Japanese prototype rolling stock in 1:80 scale (other than my workbench) is Japan. Prices, quite reasonable when one US dollar could be exchanged for 360 yen, are now ten times as great in Yen, and 40 times as great in US currency! $25 - 35 dollars won't buy a decent pair of trucks for an eight-wheeled car, never mind the car itself. If some catastrophe ever causes me to start over, I'll be scratchbuilding in On762. Even with a far larger model railroading budget than I enjoyed in the '60s, there's no way I could replace my present roster at current prices.
Note that this is not a complaint. I already own enough locomotives, passenger cars (powered and unpowered) and freight cars to accurately simulate my prototype's rather frenetic September '64 operating scheme. These days my major expense is buying steel studs for benchwork - and I may have enough on hand to just about complete my intended construction.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
The cost differences between US and China production are more complex than just labor, US taxes, regulations, insurances, etc, all work together with labor costs to cause the current situation.
Personally, I do not make any of my buying choices, in this hobby or for anything else, based on where something is made.
Is it what I need or want?
Is the quality level high enough?
Can I afford it?
Is it a reasonable value?
Answer all those questions yes and I am likely to buy it.
So for me, a US manufacturer would simply need to make something I want, likely not already made by some other manufacturer, and sell it at a reasonable price.
If a Big Boy made in China is $500 and a Big Boy made here is $1,000, it makes no difference to me since I have no use for a Big Boy.
I buy lots of the various kits on the market, most of which are still made here. It does not matter that they cost more than some China made RTR cars.
But I do buy some China made RTR stuff as well. What I don't do is this - I don't generally pay more than about $20, $25 max, for any piece of freight rolling stock, kit or RTR, US or China made.
I don't buy $40 to $70 RTR passenger cars.
I don't generally spend more than about $100 for a diesel loco, or a max of about $300 for a steam loco.
I don't use sound or DCC.
If a US production manufacturer can make suitable products in those price ranges, I will take a look - as I already do,
Sheldon
dm9538 Let's say we pay on average about $25 to $35 for an RTR freight car with a high level of detail that is produced largely China. Question 1 Would you pay more for the same car same level of detail produced entirely in the US? If so how much more?
Absolutely not. As far as I am concerned, $25-$35 rolling stock is overpriced now, considering how and where these items are currently being made. The move of production to China was supposely done to save on costs, but the consumers' price never was reduced and subsequently prices have increased dramatically.
In addition, I have no intererst in "ultra" detailed cars when much of the detail is not apparent anyway. As a protolancer, I modify/repaint most of my equipment, so coming RTR is an outright disadvantage to me from the start. Bring back the kits and then I'll likely buy.
Am I willing to pay those prices for an American-made Blue Box Athearn car now? No...that would be a scam in itself. I'd much rather buy American, but I don't accept the premise that in just the last ten years manufacturers costs have doubled, or even tripled, after witnessing that hobby item pricing didn't do that over the previous 40 years.
CNJ831
First of all, I would not pay $25 for any RTR freight car. If that is what I had to pay, wether made in China or the US, I probablly would not be in the hobby as I couldn't afford it; or I would buy only used rolling stock on Ebay or at train shows. I have never paid more than $15 for a brand new RTR freight car and that was one that had been marked 50% off. I AM RETIRED AND DON'T HAVE TONS OF $$$ TO SPEND ON MY RR HOBBY.
I have to agree that I would prefer to have US made products but we can't compete with slave labor in China, no matter what the detail level.
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
dm9538Question 1 Would you pay more for the same car same level of detail produced entirely in the US? If so how much more? Question 2 Would you still pay the same $25 to $35 for the same car produced in the US but with less detail. how much less detail I'm not really sure.
1. Nope. Most of the detail on RTR cars breaks of upon removal from the box.
2. Nope. I won't go for any RTR frieght car that is over $16 (that being what I paid for some IM 60' boxcars). I almost entirely go for kits, that way I know they are put together right.
tstage How 'bout option #3: Would you be willing to pay less for a highly detailed kit made in the US? Absolutely! - Bring on the kits! Tom
Thirded (or Fourthed?)
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.
farrellaa First of all, I would not pay $25 for any RTR freight car. If that is what I had to pay, wether made in China or the US, I probablly would not be in the hobby as I couldn't afford it; or I would buy only used rolling stock on Ebay or at train shows. I have never paid more than $15 for a brand new RTR freight car and that was one that had been marked 50% off. I AM RETIRED AND DON'T HAVE TONS OF $$$ TO SPEND ON MY RR HOBBY. I have to agree that I would prefer to have US made products but we can't compete with slave labor in China, no matter what the detail level.
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No..IMHO while today's cars are the best ever made I fully believe they are overpriced..After all how many cars can you get out of a ton of raw material? Of course that is a classified answer known only to the manufacturers..I find today's cars are fragile to the touch..I have had iddy biddy details to fall offf into my hands or into never/never land.
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No and the same cost reason apply..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
dm9538Let's say we pay on average about $25 to $35 for an RTR freight car
Heavens, no. I'm not willing to pay that for a freight car, period. My hobby dollars are too hard to come by. For that kind of money, I'll go find a nice-running Atlas Yellow Box locomotive.
I rely heavily, almost entirely, on the secondhand market for my freight kits (again, RTR just costs too much). I'd wager that three-quarters of my freight cars were acquired for not more than $5 each, including my Accurail and Branchline stuff. If you're paitient and willing to go without for a time while looking, there are good deals out there to be had.
Jim
"I am lapidary but not eristic when I use big words." - William F. Buckley
I haven't been sleeping. I'm afraid I'll dream I'm in a coma and then wake up unconscious. -Stephen Wright
Just take a look at this:
Model #37054
Our Price: $816.08Sale Price: $769.95
... and this:
Model #47009
Our Price: $43.68
This represents pretty much the price level we have to live with here in Germany. Made in Germany - no way!
Edit:
I should add, that Marklin/Trix have outsourced their production to some cheap labor countries, including China, as well. Brawa´s pricing policy is even worse. Compared to those prices, buying a BLI Paragon 2 SP cab Forward for $ 599,99 appears to be a bargain!
Don't feel bad about those european train prices, Ulrich, the American manufacturers will most definitely be catching up with them in just the next few years, I promise you!
Ulrich,
Although I am thankful to have bought my two Trix NYC 2-8-2 Mikes for substantially less than MSRP ($220 & $250, to be exact), I have to say that - as well as they look and run - I'd be willing to make an exception and pay close to full price for them. They are a sweet steamer and the pride of my fleet.
I feel for you with those prices though.
From what I understand in talking with others. The reason Athearn shut down the blue box line was because California made it impossible for them to produce it profitably and once they began producing overseas, the cost to fully assemble the model versus making the kit was such that it made absolutely no sense for them to continue to make shake the box kits.
The problem with making these is the cost of the molds. There is no doubt in my mind that with proper incentive, manufacturers could move jobs back to the US and produce models of comparative value and price, but it would require some changes in laws that simply aren't going to happen...not for the model train industry.
No way I pay 25-35 for freight
I'll stick with Accurail Kit 40 fters at $12
51% share holder in the ME&O ( Wife owns the other 49% )
ME&O
YoHo1975From what I understand in talking with others. The reason Athearn shut down the blue box line was because California made it impossible for them to produce it profitably and once they began producing overseas-snip
Also according to Athearn it was the lack of BB sales that doomed these kits.
Today's market shifted to RTR and I fear the kit era will end..
Just a clairifcation, I agree that current prices are on the high side. I used the $25 to $35 figure because that seems to be the price range for the MSRP for the stuff being released right now. I also realize kits are and would be cheaper but it seems RTR is where the hobby is at and where it will probably stay. I guess the point of my questions is are we willing to pay more or accept less to buy American made products. I'm honestly not sure how I feel just wondering what others think. I guess I'd like it both ways RTR at it's current prices and level of detail and made in the US.
Dan Metzger
I'm a former Bowser employee. Bowser fought a good fight to keep actual manufacturing in the U.S. as long as possible (actually too long--it was costing them). They and many others fought a good fight, and excepting Kadee's outstanding product line, the game is over. The ship has sailed.
I personally do not care where the trains are produced.
Excepting the Kadee freight cars, which are produced in the U.S., and which now are competitively priced (especially if detailing is considered) relative to the recent Chinese-produced freight cars, I will not pay extra for made in the U.S.A.
Not one nickel extra. I simply don't have extra money to spend.
I have recently purchased Chinese-made BLI Paragon2, Athearn Genesis, and MTH steam locomotives--and the assembly quality, fit, and finish of the particular engines I received was outstanding in all cases. However, they were all the "top" end models.
John
P.S. Some will obviously disagree with my post, and that's fine. You all are entitled to your opinions. I respectfully offer the following real money example, though it is a couple years out of date now:
Option A: Produce can motor in China and have it delivered to your doorstep here (in lots of 10,000): Cost $4.00 each delivered, includes all shipping charges.
Option B: Produce can motor in U.S.A. with American labor: Cost more than $20.00 each.
Now if you are Atlas, or are attempting to compete with Atlas and must therefore offer a competitive product at a competitive price, which Option will you choose? If China becomes expensive, they'll just shift manufacturing to another developing (but still way cheaper than U.S.A.) country.
dm9538 I've heard alot of complaints from modelers including myself about a the cost of and or the fact that most of what we buy is made in China. So I've thougt of a few questions, a survey if you will. Let's say we pay on average about $25 to $35 for an RTR freight car with a high level of detail that is produced largely China. Question 1 Would you pay more for the same car same level of detail produced entirely in the US? If so how much more? Question 2 Would you still pay the same $25 to $35 for the same car produced in the US but with less detail. how much less detail I'm not really sure. I don't work for a manufacturer. I'm just another model railroader but these questions have always bothered me. Like alot of you guys I'm sure, if at all possible I would like to have American made products but how much more does it really cost to produce the products as we've become acustomed to here instead of China, and are we either willing to more or maybe accept less in detail to keep the cost in line with what we currently pay. I would like to here your thoughts.
I've heard alot of complaints from modelers including myself about a the cost of and or the fact that most of what we buy is made in China. So I've thougt of a few questions, a survey if you will.
I don't work for a manufacturer. I'm just another model railroader but these questions have always bothered me. Like alot of you guys I'm sure, if at all possible I would like to have American made products but how much more does it really cost to produce the products as we've become acustomed to here instead of China, and are we either willing to more or maybe accept less in detail to keep the cost in line with what we currently pay. I would like to here your thoughts.
Depending on the amount of detail removed, I would pay the same price for models made here over the models made out of the USA and use them for club layout operations. Many of the cars available now have excellent detail, but that detail can be damaged if you handle them while using them at club layouts. Home layouts probably are better for high detail cars since the cars remain on the layout and not packed and unpacked every time they are used.
CZ
No way I am spending $25 for any car. I will buy used at eBay or flea market first. Second choice is to buy a kit. Third choice is scratch build.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
BRAKIEYoHo1975From what I understand in talking with others. The reason Athearn shut down the blue box line was because California made it impossible for them to produce it profitably and once they began producing overseas-snip Also according to Athearn it was the lack of BB sales that doomed these kits. Today's market shifted to RTR and I fear the kit era will end..
Also, I humbly present the Inflation calculator http://www.westegg.com/inflation/
For those of you pounding your fist about how much you will or won't spend, It might be interesting.
a $15 freight car today would have cost $9.25 in 1990 (which is the year I personally base my inner hobby pricing on) A $25 car would have been $15. So really, the price of cars hasn't risen all that much except for inflation. All product costs have gone up with inflation, not just model products.
Now, locomotives, those prices have increased a little more than the rate of inflation, especially if you're talking Athearn RTR style.
YoHo1975And yet how many of the RTR series use the same molds? The Blue Box line dropped sales because nothing new was brought out in it. limited new designs, limited new road numbers and their were stacks of them not selling. Athearn did a bad job of keeping those kits fresh. They went to RTR overseas instead. Also, I humbly present the Inflation calculator http://www.westegg.com/inflation/ For those of you pounding your fist about how much you will or won't spend, It might be interesting. a $15 freight car today would have cost $9.25 in 1990 (which is the year I personally base my inner hobby pricing on) A $25 car would have been $15. So really, the price of cars hasn't risen all that much except for inflation. All product costs have gone up with inflation, not just model products.
YoHo, I basicly agree with you about inflation, but I use 1968, the year I started buying blue box kits - most were about $2.
It was the government regulations regarding painting, etc, which helped limit the state side advancement of the Athearn line, kit or RTR. In China they still understand that MANUFACTURING involves chemicals and machines - an idea lost on the Calf. government.
Going overseas allowed them to invest in new paint processes, better lettering, etc, at a cost that would still keep them in the market. It just so happens they can also assemble the darn thing while they are at it for the same price.
I wouldn't pay $25 for any freight car - right now if I run across some of the Athearn BB kits I am snatching them up providing they work for my RR. I will also look at Ebay or buy kits - but to spend that kind of money isn't in my plan.
To me, this thread gets at another issue - is model railroading pricing itself out of the reach of some people? Granted there are various levels of product but are people getting turned off because of price? I have a limit on how much I will spend on any given item and when I see prices that exceed that limit, I put the item back on the shelf. Sure, I could lay it away, or internet shop, but I like to eat and drink good wine.
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
I'm going to agree with the majority here and say that I do NOT pay >$25 for a RTR freight car. Where it's made doesn't concern me as much as maybe it should. I want a quality item (good trucks, proper weight, and good couplers) but I'm not so big on incredible detail. First, most of it is stuck on the underside of the car and second, alot of those fragile details that are on the top and sides get broken off with handling. I prefer the basic detailing of the Athearn BB and MDC/Roundhouse kits. Accurail is quickly becoming my favorite.
If RTR at $30+ becomes the standard, I will be on eBay swooping up old BB kits left and right.
As far as kits with great detail at resonable prices go, I do build a bunch of Tichey cars. I have close to 30 of their tank car done in a Sinclair scheme.
HaroldATo me, this thread gets at another issue - is model railroading pricing itself out of the reach of some people? Granted there are various levels of product but are people getting turned off because of price?
This reminds me of a saying: "how do you eat an elephant....one bite at a time." What I mean by this is that manufacturers are slowly taking us to the maximum we are willing to pay for whatever they offer. Even if the models we see have exquisite detail, are they really worth the $25+ price? Maybe, maybe not; but a lot here, myself included, won't pay over a certain price for an item. I know I won't pay $30 MSRP or more for a RTR model if I can find a better deal online, at auction or train show. Once the group (a vast majority of MR's) finally get to the point that we stop buying and manufacturers feel the loss of revenue, maybe then they will stop eating at us "one bite at a time". I wonder at what price that's going to be at? Could be $40, $60....some RTR's are already there, but I guess that we'll just have to wait and see.
TONY
"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)
I would pay more for a USA made anything! I actually look at products before I buy just to check. We all need to do our part to keep people working in the USA. If not we will soon be slaves to another country. This goes even for trains. I always would buy Bowser but now they are over the pond too. We can make a difference in the economy 1 purchase at a time! Remeber that the next time you pick up something to buy.
PRRT1MAN I would pay more for a USA made anything! I actually look at products before I buy just to check. We all need to do our part to keep people working in the USA. If not we will soon be slaves to another country. This goes even for trains. I always would buy Bowser but now they are over the pond too. We can make a difference in the economy 1 purchase at a time! Remeber that the next time you pick up something to buy.
Yoho wrote:And yet how many of the RTR series use the same molds? The Blue Box line dropped sales because nothing new was brought out in it. limited new designs, limited new road numbers and their were stacks of them not selling. Athearn did a bad job of keeping those kits fresh. They went to RTR overseas instead.
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Yoho,The cold facts is the BB era has ended killed by modelers simply by not buying 'em..If Athearn hadn't gone RTR like the other manufacturers then I suspect it would have been farewell Athearn.The modelers set the RTR market and not the manufacturers.Even the RTR cars are superior to those old nasty BB kits that require a lot of tweaking to get the coupler at the correct height no problem with the RTR cars.I won't miss those BB kits at all..I had my fill of 'em over the last 55 years and 70% of the cars I own the former BB kit.
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Exactly which ones are you talking about? Even the RTR GP38-2 is superior to its BB counter part..I would call that a improvement...The upgraded SW1500 is a thing of pure beauty and surpasses its BB counterpart.
I humbly hand the Inflation calculator back to you because I don't use 'em nor do I compare prices of a bygone era with today's.
BRAKIEYoho,The cold facts is the BB era has ended killed by modelers simply by not buying 'em..If Athearn hadn't gone RTR like the other manufacturers then I suspect it would have been farewell Athearn.The modelers set the RTR market and not the manufacturers.Even the RTR cars are superior to those old nasty BB kits that require a lot of tweaking to get the coupler at the correct height no problem with the RTR cars.I won't miss those BB kits at all..I had my fill of 'em over the last 55 years and 70% of the cars I own the former BB kit
But Larry--itis precisely the issue of the ones that still want to buy kits being told that they are no longer part of the market! No one seriously thinks to spin off the kits to someone who might want to make a run at it---sure smaller numbers but come on--they still exist as part of the hobby----
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
But Barry, kits still are available. Not perhaps the generic one size fits all road names BB kits, but kits nonetheless survive.
'Course, the ones that kvetch about the cost of RTR in the $25-30 per car range will soil their shorts at the price of an AMB Laser Kit SP C30-1 caboose at $46.95 (less trucks and couplers of course). AMB has a nice selection of caboose kits for variouls protoypes. Naturally, by the time you add trucks and couplers, the total will be well over $50.
Bethlehem Car Works has a nice selection of Eastern prototype passenger car kits (less trucks and couplers) for prices ranging from about $30 to about $75. The Athearn RTR generics are starting to look like a screaming bargain at only about $17 (MSRP).
And you notice, it's always the ***'s who scream about RTR. N scale's been pretty much RTR from the get-go although N kits can be had. You can now buy kits like the TrainCat SP C40-3 caboose (less trucks and couplers) for 44.50. It's brass, even. You can also buy a kit for a 7500 cu ft Gunderson woodchip car (for $62.50). They make other stuff, too, and there are other kit manufacturers to be found in all scales. I just ain't doing anyone's homework for them.
There was a time you could buy a car for less that $2,000. Radio and heater were options, it had a 3 speed column mounted transmission, rubber llour mats instead of wall to wall carpet and a 6 cylinder engine underpowered by modern standards, The only air conditioning to be had was by lowering the hand cranked windows. People keep saying they want the model railroad equipment equivalent of those old cars, but the truth is, neither will sell despite all the protestations to the contrary. BTW, it's becoming extremely hard to find a new car with a manual transmission anymore and even harder to find people who actually know how to shift for themselves.
Incidentally the companies listed above make stuff right here in North America, not China. I keep hearing anti-Chinese noises, but I don't see those American manufacturers undertaking vast increases in production because the kvetchers have decided to keep their money on this side of the Pacific.
Andre
blownout cylinder BRAKIEYoho,The cold facts is the BB era has ended killed by modelers simply by not buying 'em..If Athearn hadn't gone RTR like the other manufacturers then I suspect it would have been farewell Athearn.The modelers set the RTR market and not the manufacturers.Even the RTR cars are superior to those old nasty BB kits that require a lot of tweaking to get the coupler at the correct height no problem with the RTR cars.I won't miss those BB kits at all..I had my fill of 'em over the last 55 years and 70% of the cars I own the former BB kit But Larry--itis precisely the issue of the ones that still want to buy kits being told that they are no longer part of the market! No one seriously thinks to spin off the kits to someone who might want to make a run at it---sure smaller numbers but come on--they still exist as part of the hobby----
Barry,That is true but,when the bottom dropped out of the BB kit market what was Athearn to do? Go bankrupt? I am sure Horizon invested a heavy sum of cash to get Athearn where its at today.
Here's another thought..Some of those dies are getting old and I wonder if the cost of replacing them was festable? Even Atlas dropped their GP7 because the dies was worn out..We seen the demise of the old Penn-Line and Varney kits..We seen the demise of the old Hobbytown kits when Bear Locomotive cease production.
The current hobby is what I call "I want it 2 hours ago model railroading"..Look over some of the topics on the Atlas forum asking when this or that will arrive?
At the Bucyrus Train Show there was still a lot of BB kits-one dealer told me he had those kits for months and even tried to sell them 3/$10.00 at several shows.
So,as sad as it is it appears the majority spoke with their wallets and it wasn't in favor of the BB kits.
I started building BB kits when I was seven..I stopped in 2006 and haven't looked back.
As far as BB kits, they never were acceptable for me, my low end kits were MDC, the ones that had individual grabs. I would get better grabs than the staples that came with and add better stirrups, add a better break wheal and they looked pretty good!
Look, Go pull an Athearn RTR boxcar kit and look at it next to the RTR version of it. The molds haven't changed.
The amount of money it would take to make new molds is insane. Athearn just took the best of the RDC/Roundhouse and their own molds and made minor upgrades and better paint.
And last I checked, Athearn's coupler pockets were almost always at the right height unmodified.
And I can't imagine why you would pick on the Athearn BB GP38-2. That's was one of Athearns 1980s BB and is itself a thing of beauty. With the semi-see through fans, correct hood, hidden clips holding the shell on. The upgraded drive and MAYBE plastic railings are the biggest improvements and neither is a function of it being RTR.
The problem with BB kits is that the did not add new cars. I think the newest freight car I could buy in a BB kit were the ATSF fuel Foiler TOFC spines from the late 70s early 80s. It is completely unfair and foolish to judge them against other vendors who were adding new types of cars to the catalog.
The facts of the matter are quite simply, it became impossible for Athearn to build their models in California anymore and when they moved to china, the cost to Athearn to produce the kit versus the Ready to Run model was essentially 0. So they dropped the kit. They knew they could charge a slight premium for RTR and so it was win win.
They let blue box die without a fight and then blamed it on "market forces."
Any time a company tells you they're dropping something because the market has moved on, you 're bullpockey detector should be sqwaking.
BRAKIE blownout cylinder BRAKIEYoho,The cold facts is the BB era has ended killed by modelers simply by not buying 'em..If Athearn hadn't gone RTR like the other manufacturers then I suspect it would have been farewell Athearn.The modelers set the RTR market and not the manufacturers.Even the RTR cars are superior to those old nasty BB kits that require a lot of tweaking to get the coupler at the correct height no problem with the RTR cars.I won't miss those BB kits at all..I had my fill of 'em over the last 55 years and 70% of the cars I own the former BB kit But Larry--itis precisely the issue of the ones that still want to buy kits being told that they are no longer part of the market! No one seriously thinks to spin off the kits to someone who might want to make a run at it---sure smaller numbers but come on--they still exist as part of the hobby---- Barry,That is true but,when the bottom dropped out of the BB kit market what was Athearn to do? Go bankrupt? I am sure Horizon invested a heavy sum of cash to get Athearn where its at today.
Here is the thing---why not spin the dang thing--the bb kits off the main body of the company then? Give it to some guy who wants to make a go of the kit market himself--and sure, the kits were never really updated because they just did not wanna spend the sheckels on upgrades but they were still there---they were AFFORDABLE and you could get a fair sized fleet going without taking a piece of your neck and giving it to the company.
Many companies in the electronics industry have spun off smaller segments of themselves and have done quite well doing that---why cannot here? All we see here is discontinue the line and KEEP the old molds around----for what? If they are toasty then give them away---sheeesh
YoHo is correct, most of the current Ready to Roll items are the same tooling Athearn and MDC were using for decades.
Yes, some of the items have been improved and some of the tooling is newer, but talking about some of the newest pieces does not change the fact that most of it is the same stuff, with minor up grades and better paint, that Athearn and MDC have made since I was a teen, some 40 years ago.
The current RTR 40' box car is the MDC piece from about 20 years ago, it was a little better than the Athearn piece from 50 years ago.
The various flat cars are all the same (40', 50', all with various loads - piggyback vans, airplanes, boats) back to the early 60's.
The older style tank cars are all the same.
The 50' outside braced plug door box - I bought my first one in 1969.
The Northeast caboose - an old MDC piece now with window glass, better handrails and a new plastic underframe.
This issue of how old or new the Athearn tooling is, is largely a factor of what era you model and which products you buy.
But very few of the Ready to Roll line models, if any, represent completely new tooling.
And that is fine with me because I felt they were satisfactory models back then, and they still are today.
I have bought dozens of the new RTR 50' flats with 2 vans, they are EXACTLY the same tooling as the dozens of Blue box versions I have. The new ones just have better paint jobs and metal wheels.
40 years of BB and MDC kits, I never had any major problems with coupler height.
As for the inflation calculator, to me it is only partly valid. As I said earlier, use 1968 prices and you get a completely different result. AND, we can assume Athearn and MDC were still paying for lots of tooling in 1968.
Seems we have two extremes here, those who now want high detail and those who want easy handling and low cost.
I looked at a lot of prices on the ends of a lot of boxes last night, old and new.
Athearn BB passengers cars - $3.98
Athearn BB box car - $1.98
Yellow box F7 dummy kit - 98 cents!
Most of my current stuff (last 10 years or so) $12-$15
I still think the paint jobs killed BB once people saw the new stuff.
Yoho wrote:
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You forgot to add the metal grab irons and that improves the GP38-2 and GP40-2..I have both the RTR and BB kit GP38-2/40-2 locomotives and the RTR out shines their plain jane BB counter parts.There's no real comparison..Even the performance is superior.
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Yoho wrote:Any time a company tells you they're dropping something because the market has moved on, you 're bullpockey detector should be squawking. -------------------------------
Think so? When I see the same BB kits set on the shelf for 10 years while the RTR flies off the shelf that's facts.A lot of those BB kits is still sitting there and will more then likely be sitting there next year.
Allow me to ask you this..
How many BB kits did you buy over the last 5 years? I haven't bought one since 2005 and I was buying very few before that.Maybe 1-2 a year since I started buying RTR in 2003? It didn't take long for me to see the RTR was superior to the BB in several ways.
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Yoho wrote:The problem with BB kits is that the did not add new cars. I think the newest freight car I could buy in a BB kit were the ATSF fuel Foiler TOFC spines from the late 70s early 80s. It is completely unfair and foolish to judge them against other vendors who were adding new types of cars to the catalog.
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Ever think the sales of the BB kits was slow and they didn't have the per capitol to improve their product line? Something was amiss because after the Horizon bought Athearn, Athearn been releasing cars and locomotives every month and introduce several newly tooled cars and locomotives and upgraded several of their better locomotives and in general hasn't look back..
I'm no businessman but,seeing this turn around tells me the BB kits may not have been doing all that well like Athearn has stated several times and just maybe that's why my "bullpockey detector" didn't squawk
blownout cylinderHere is the thing---why not spin the dang thing--the bb kits off the main body of the company then? Give it to some guy who wants to make a go of the kit market himself--and sure, the kits were never really updated because they just did not wanna spend the sheckels on upgrades but they were still there---they were AFFORDABLE and you could get a fair sized fleet going without taking a piece of your neck and giving it to the company.
How can they do that? They are using the tooling to make the Ready to Roll products. Make more copies of the tooling?
Barry, having worked in a hobby shop for many years, I have seen up close every Athearn and MDC item - I could do an item by item accounting, but it would take hours. Trust me the current Ready to Roll line is largely the same tooling Athearn and MDC have used for years - Again, yes, with some minor upgrades to some pieces, and the new metal wheels in the same trucks. And, yes, with some newer MDC pieces replacing some Athearn pieces - but they are largely the same stuff once sold as kits.
Back in the day, fact is Athearn and MDC did tooling work for each other. That is why there was very little overlap in their product lines, those two guys were friends in the same business.
I do think they should continue to offer undecorated versions which they seem to be doing with some items but the market does not seem to want simple kits as much as you and I think they are a good idea,
--------------------
Sheldon,Add poor paint,thick paint,warp frames,warp floors that help kill the BB kit..As you know some kits was a bear getting the #5 coupler at the correct height...I haven't had that problem with the RTR cars and locomotives.
Shoot I was raised on a diet of BB kits and preferred them over the Roundhouse kits but,as I mention it didn't take long for me to see the RTR cars was superior to their BB counter parts starting with the crispier painting and finer lettering..
BRAKIE Yoho wrote: And I can't imagine why you would pick on the Athearn BB GP38-2. That's was one of Athearns 1980s BB and is itself a thing of beauty. With the semi-see through fans, correct hood, hidden clips holding the shell on. The upgraded drive and MAYBE plastic railings are the biggest improvements and neither is a function of it being RTR. ----------------------------------- You forgot to add the metal grab irons and that improves the GP38-2 and GP40-2..I have both the RTR and BB kit GP38-2/40-2 locomotives and the RTR out shines their plain jane BB counter parts.There's no real comparison..Even the performance is superior.
Larry, it is easy to single out the few products with dramatic up grades, but fact remains most of the Ready to Roll line is 20 to 40 year old tooling with better paint and few better detail parts.
Example - the locos you mentioned are newer and better partly because their prototypes are newer and they came out later - and yes, then they did upgrade them even more. I don't model that era, those items are of no interest to me. The 40' box cars and 50' piggyback cars are unchanged from decades ago, they are in my era.
BRAKIE I still think the paint jobs killed BB once people saw the new stuff. Sheldon -------------------- Sheldon,poor paint,thick paint,warp frames,warp floors help kill the BB kit..As you know some kits was a bear getting the #5 coupler at the correct height...I haven't had that problem with the RTR cars and locomotives. Shoot I was raised on a diet of BB kits and preferred them over the Roundhouse kits but,as I mention it didn't take long for me to see the RTR cars was superior to their BB counter parts starting with the crispier painting and finer lettering..
Sheldon,poor paint,thick paint,warp frames,warp floors help kill the BB kit..As you know some kits was a bear getting the #5 coupler at the correct height...I haven't had that problem with the RTR cars and locomotives.
Again, I agree fully about the paint jobs, but I never had any of those other problems - again it is likely specific to particular models - not the whole line - but I sold the suff for decades, my customers never complained of those problems either.
I will let you know when I finish building the the 40-50 BB kits still sitting on my workshop shelves.
Well, they could do that then sell the extra molds off to offset those costs as well. I think that if some of the larger corporations in the electronics industry could spin off companies---with their own inventories, all built through the larger corp--- then there should be some space in ones cranium for that to happen here--
I think it all comes down to just how you envisage your company---I think that if you made the rules for your company you can also change the picture as well. It is kind of funny that the kit market dried up so much that there is, outside of the craftsmans building kits and the few little home based firms doing it, now the idea that no one else is doing kits anymore.
I think that it is, in a way, Equine Plumage to suggest that it is no longer done----seems to be a lot more scratchbuilding going on---could it be------?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL BRAKIE I still think the paint jobs killed BB once people saw the new stuff. Sheldon -------------------- Sheldon,poor paint,thick paint,warp frames,warp floors help kill the BB kit..As you know some kits was a bear getting the #5 coupler at the correct height...I haven't had that problem with the RTR cars and locomotives. Shoot I was raised on a diet of BB kits and preferred them over the Roundhouse kits but,as I mention it didn't take long for me to see the RTR cars was superior to their BB counter parts starting with the crispier painting and finer lettering.. Again, I agree fully about the paint jobs, but I never had any of those other problems - again it is likely specific to particular models - not the whole line - but I sold the suff for decades, my customers never complained of those problems either. I will let you know when I finish building the the 40-50 BB kits still sitting on my workshop shelves. Sheldon
Sheldon,The warp frames was mostly 50' "Railbox" cars,some 50' gons and reefers and I seen 89' flat cars that was badly bowed..I seen 40'boxcars with warp frames.Some cars required 2 washers on one end to bring the coupler up to the correct height but,2 washers was rare.
Of course your customers didn't complain-we took it in stride and did the required tweaking.LOL! Times has changed since then.
BTW..There are several newly tooled cars in the RTR line and some of those older cars are heavly upgraded..
HI!
I would much rather have the kits than the RTR. And yes, I would much prefer they were made in the USofA. And, I would pay the "premium" too!
As I model the transition era (atsf & ic), I believe I have pretty much all the rolling stock that I would want, as most all cars of that era have been produced.
Diesel locos for that era (for the ATSF & IC) have pretty much all been produced as well, and I have what I want and don't know of any I would want that I don't already have.
Steamers are a mixed bag, and there are still some for the two roads that I would buy if they came out (attention BLI !!!!), but they would have to be "road specific" and not some more of those generic USRA locos with ATSF plastered on the side. Ooops, sorry to go down that rabbit trail...........
ENJOY,
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
First off, the number of plastic rollingstock "kits" available is and has been, quite limited for several years now, inspite of what some are claiming. The Accurail line, while listing a very broad range of road names for any of their given cars, has only had one or two of the listed roadnames per car actually available over long periods.
Bowser's kits are nearly all of PRR prototypes and are not particularly applicable to most other roads. In addition, the wood and resin craftsman kits that are out there are largely beyond the construction capabilities of today's average hobbyist (at least in regard to finishing them out to equal the plastic models). This pretty much leaves Branchline as the only other major kit producer and not all of their kits seem to be in production at any given time.
Following that situation, the actual decision to eliminate the BB line was made by a four-man panel. Two were Horizon personnel and two others Athearn reps. However, only one of the Athearn personnel was actually a modeler railroader and he had not independently researched the actual field situation! There is little question that the move to RTR-only on Horizon's part was economic in nature, in the sense that there was more profit to be made selling RTR than in selling the undercutting kits. Likewise, offering the RTR as "limited run" forced sales, whereas kits sold more slowly over extended periods. To my knowledge, absolutely no one has yet demonstrated in any way that demand for RTR cars out ranks that for kits, then or now. Rather, this has simply become the standard assumption among hobbyists.
I'll close with a prediction that many will not like, but is the logical next step considering what has occurred in the industry so far this decade. Within the next three years the only sort of locomotives available in the marketplace will be dual-mode DC/DCC, with sound and smoke (in the case of steamers). The less expensive DC, or DCC without the "extras", will be discontinued. Of couse, this will mean that all locomotives will be priced at the high end of their current manufacturers' ranges.
(p.s. Please excuse the paragraph structure in the above. The system appears to be sick this morning and re-editing doesn't help!)
Ah, but the point is that the manufacturers of RTR will never be willing to spin off those kit's dies to anyone else, because their re-introduction could undercut sales of the RTR of the original owners.
Likewise, a new start-up from scratch for kit manufacturing today, in a marketplace where you can get two, or three, times the kit price for the model in RTR form, would be a foolish approach in the eyes of any financial backers and unlikely to gain support. This is re-enforced by the appearance of a couple of brand new, high-end, RTR rollingstock companies recently.
There is a market for both. Some people will pay more if they perceive that it is worth more. Most manufacturers know that and pander to it. Do you really think there is a difference in quality between a Toyota and a Lexus? ... between a Chevrolet and a Cadillac? ... between a Ford and a Lincoln?
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Coming back to Atheran's kits, a point almost always overlooked (not well known?) regarding the demise of the Athearn BB kits is that Horizon dramatically limited production of these in the last 12 to 24 months before their ultimate demise. For a time almost all items were out-of-stock and there were threads here and on other forums indicating folks could not locate anything, even among those kits listed as supposedly available. Little wonder that they reportedly weren't selling!
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John,Sounds good in theory but,it doesn't explain the BB kits sitting on the shelf for years or how a train show dealer says he can't dump BB kits at 3/$10.00..How is it one shop in Mansfield still had the same BB locomotive kits in stock when I first visited his shop back in '94? It doesn't explain the turn around that Athearn has with their monthly releases which usually sells out.For those that don't know or haven't any notice this hobby has changed...The BB kit era is kaput killed by modelers.Even Bowser has entered the RTR market as did Accurail with their AccuReady line.
I have no doubts those old BB kits wasn't selling all that well against the RTR market with the added on line discounts..
As I mention I had enough BB kit building and tweakingf over the years and now prefer the superior RTR line.
Think of this..Those crying over the demise of the BB kit may have been weeping bitter tears over the demise of Athearn if they(Athearn) didn't join the RTR market..
BRAKIEJohn,Sounds good in theory but,it doesn't explain the BB kits sitting on the shelf for years or how a train show dealer says he can't dump BB kits at 3/$10.00..How is it one shop in Mansfield still had the same BB locomotive kits in stock when I first visited his shop back in '94
Easy---no advertising on Athearns part of the kits and their affordability. No push on the side of Horizon to get them out the doors of the sellers. The drive to get more $$$ out of RTR than other bb's. Besides why bother selling kits if you can sell the exact same product, with better paint and wheelsets at a higher price than kit? We had some success at selling out the bb's up here--seen more LHS's with backorders for the dang things than you guys are--besides, the bb's did, in fact, comprise the meat and potatoes of many a hobby shop----at one time
Look at the wonderful redefining of phrases we are now seeing---Discontinued---used to mean no longer being made. period. Now, it means we may just repaint them and come out with a variation. For a short time frame. DCC ready---no standard here anymore----at least from what I've seen. All manner of things.
We may have to admit that at least some of what John says is true--like it or not, that being said I'm also pretty sure that some of this could be laid at the feet of the "instant gratification" philosophy we all are seeing out here---
Oh well---when the superdetailed RTR locomotives are at $900 to $1300 each--we'll still be buying them---out'n the credit cards---
BRAKIE Coming back to Atheran's kits, a point almost always overlooked (not well known?) regarding the demise of the Athearn BB kits is that Horizon dramatically limited production of these in the last 12 to 24 months before their ultimate demise. For a time almost all items were out-of-stock and there were threads here and on other forums indicating folks could not locate anything, even among those kits listed as supposedly available. Little wonder that they reportedly weren't selling! ------------------------- John,Sounds good in theory but,it doesn't explain the BB kits sitting on the shelf for years or how a train show dealer says he can't dump BB kits at 3/$10.00..How is it one shop in Mansfield still had the same BB locomotive kits in stock when I first visited his shop back in '94?
John,Sounds good in theory but,it doesn't explain the BB kits sitting on the shelf for years or how a train show dealer says he can't dump BB kits at 3/$10.00..How is it one shop in Mansfield still had the same BB locomotive kits in stock when I first visited his shop back in '94?
Larry, I'm sure you'll agree that BB kits sitting on shelves for ages is nothing new. It goes back as long as I can remember (to the 1950's anyway). Likewise, many roadnames in later years were often obscure. In a number for cases the cars were decorated for roads that never even had cars remotely resembling the models, or for second class RRs from a very different region from where the shop was located. These were, not surprisingly, quite often no-sales, but Athearn was producing so many other kits that these poor sellers didn't matter...so they just set. The last show I visit mainly had collections of the uncommon roadname cars up for sale and indeed, they weren't moving. However, appropriate older Athearn NYC, NH, B&A, et al. car kits are often completely unavailable at shows in my region because these were the area prototypes.
It doesn't explain the turn around that Athearn has with their monthly releases which usually sells out.For those that don't know or haven't any notice this hobby has changed...The BB kit era is kaput killed by modelers.Even Bowser has entered the RTR market as did Accurail with their AccuReady line.
As to the RTRs selling out right away, that's no surprise either. Runs are so small these days that it's become instilled in the minds' of hobbyists that they must buy right now, or miss out perhaps forever. That's concept is a world away from the way it was a decade and more ago when you bought something when you actually needed it.
I have no doubts those old BB kits wasn't selling all that well against the RTR market with the added on line discounts.. As I mention I had enough BB kit building and tweakingf over the years and now prefer the superior RTR line. Think of this..Those crying over the demise of the BB kit may have been weeping bitter tears over the demise of Athearn if they(Athearn) didn't join the RTR market..
I fully appreciate your particular situation and that for you, RTR has proven a big help. I think that that is very fortunate in your case. But among the group of old-school model railroaders I deal with, who are still modeling/modifying virtually all their equipment rather than just pulling RTR cars out of boxes and plotting them down on the layout, RTR doesn't cut it and likely never will. For us, the hobby will always be about craftsmanship and creativity, not collecting, or simply playing with miniature trains.
Barry wrote:
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Interesting theory but,don't ya think the LHS may have played a hand? Think of it..The RTR was selling and the BB not so,shops begin stocking RTR while BS'ing their customers how BB kits wasn't available..
Then Athearn went to by order production and that failed to get the require number for a production run.
Again who really called the shots? We the modeler.We voted RTR was what we wanted with our wallets...
Could it be we the modeler played into the manufacturers hands and help drive up the prices with our demands of higher detailed locomotives and RTR cars? I think inadvertently we did.
John,I to am a old school modeler that just happens to like the RTR market.
Of course old line craftsmen like yourself will never want RTR and I can appreciate that..
However.
For old goats like me that would rather operate then build or spend hours detailing RTR is a blessing.
When I read the original post I was a little shocked at the RTR car price listed. I assumed that people were actually dropping that kind of cash on a single piece of rolling stock. It appears from the replies that this is not so.
I, too, am not willing to pay that kind of money for any kind of car. Instead, I will scrounge hobby shops, flea markets, train shows, and dumpsters in search of used cars or old kits. The level of detail is not as important to me as cost savings achieved over all.
Perhaps manufacturers should take note of this thread?
The Cedar Branch & Western--The Hillbilly Line!
A. It doesnt matter to me where its made as long as the price is Fair. The most ive paid for a RTR is 22 Dollars. I never like to spend more then 15 dollars for a RTR Car. Engines I'll go up to 125 Dollars for a RTR other than that i prefer any kit over a RTR because you can detail them much easier and the way you want better than a RTR.
Another thing to note is that even if the kits sold well in the store, did they sell well online! At least were I live the local hobby shop is dead. There are a few holdouts but they have changed and as their selection gets smaller people tend not to go as often. I have noticed that hobby shops are very good at killing themselves off. A few examples, a friend called and asked if their was anything I needed from the hobby store as he was going right by there. I asked him to pick up some sheet styrene that I needed and (he has no hobby experience) asked the clerk and the clerk said no, that all they had was plastic! Another (now this is a real trains only hobby store with a vast selection), this person always hosted a swap meet in her parking lot and of course the line was to the back of the store inside. She notice someone who worked at another hobby store (40 miles away) selling stuff and accused him of selling for this other owner stuff he wanted to get rid of, now this guy is in the hobby so this was his stuff ( and the place he worked would rather give a bargain to their regulars anyway). So the owner decided to stop the swap meets.
Well how many 40' box cars or 40' pickle cars does one modeler need. The problem with the blue box line is that NONE of their newly tooled releases were and are offered as kits. In fact the double and maxi stacks, and PS 5344 Box Cars were taken out of the kit line at the introduction of the RTR line. When they aquired MDC, the only MDC product that they ever released in the Blue Box line were some waffle boxes.
Lets face it the RTR would die too, if they stopped offering new paint schemes, different road numbers, and newly tooled models etc. They finally upgraded the kit line, near the end, too little too late, with metal wheels, I had no use for or too many of the particular cars that they offered, How many 50' sd box cars with the same number do i need. Granted the kits may not sell as much as RTR but Athearn could of put a little more effort into the blue box line instead of dumping it on a deserted island without food and water.
Can I get what I want at any price?
Look, almost every financial decision that we make involves an allocation of resources; if ABC offers a model of the XYZ--my favorite road-- Class C 2-8-0 two issues immediately arise: firstly, can I afford the price being ask . . . . . . . . . . and, secondly, do I want to afford that price being ask. That particular price might, initially, appear to be exorbitant and I may well blanche at it and murmer "No Way, Jose!" but if I want it badly enough I will allocated the (financial) resources for its purchase even though that is going to mean that I will, of necessity, have to forego the purchase of something else which I might desire to buy.
If Yuban raises the price of their 2lb can of coffee one dollar and the price of the equal sized can of Maxwell House remains the same then I might just decide to purchase the Maxwell House even though that may not be what I would desire. I will not--keep in mind that this is only a rhetorical example--purchase that Yuban coffee at their newly offered price . . . . . . . . . . I will purchase that Yuban coffee at their newly offered price even though, to do so, will necessitate that I forego the purchase of pound of garlic baloney from the deli. I'm not going to make a blanket statement that I will never purchase a $25-$35 freight car as some here have because, if that's what it takes to get what I want--and if I absolutely positutely can't live without it--then I will most likely fork that amount out although to do so will necessitate foregoing the purchase of an equally desirous twenty dollar item.
. . . . . . . . . . allocation of our precious resources . . . . . . . . . .
I would very much like to see the "Made in USA" label on more items and I would, most likely, be willing to shell out more money if that's what it took to see. Now, if I can get the Powerball and/or MegaMillions to cooperate with me . . . . . . . . . .
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
You obviously know nothing of wages in China, the lowest min. wage in China is 39cents an hour. Average monthly salary for a factory worker is $200+. In fact in some areas they actually have labor shortages because the factory workers who came from rural areas are returning there, very well off on their so called exploited wages.
And as for bowing, of course you don't have that problem with ready to run, because a mother in China gets paid $0.02 and hour to put it together for you and she rejects the ones that don't fit right.
What's your source for this assertion on this theoretical Chinese mother, or are you pulling that number out of thin air?
http://www.industryweek.com/articles/outsourcing_hedge_the_low-wage_wager_12125.aspx
http://tinyurl.com/2accprg
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/29/business/worldbusiness/29labor.html
http://www.theglobalguru.com/article.php?id=112
http://www.bicycleretailer.com/news/newsDetail/3978.html
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13511_3-9730762-22.html
Snippet from article linked right above: Government mandates also compel employers to kick in fringe benefits. Suntech, for instance, provides housing subsides, a free cafeteria and onsite medical.
http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1842145_1842144_1842142,00.html
They ain't saints and wages aren't at Western levels yet (neither is the cost of living), but to proclaim $.02/hr is go beyond the bounds of hyperbole and into the realm of what Col. Sherman T. Potter of the late 4077th MASH referred to as "horsehockey".
rrebell You obviously know nothing of wages in China, the lowest min. wage in China is 39cents an hour. Average monthly salary for a factory worker is $200+. In fact in some areas they actually have labor shortages because the factory workers who came from rural areas are returning there, very well off on their so called exploited wages.
Lack of knowledge has never been a deterrent to the expression of opinion in any venue.
Besides, it feels SOOOOOO much better to claim that Chinese mothers almost have to pay for the privilege of assembling model trains.
Come to think of it, if they did have to pay for the privilege of assembling model trains, they wouldn't be factory workers, they'd be model railroaders.
Just an example of an items labor cost in a factory, at the Dabon factory in China a man gets $1.45 to wrap for shipping and install a bicycle seat, a small part of a full bike!
YoHo1975I'm sorry, do you two think that disproving my Hyperbole (and it was clearly hyperbole) has any relevance at all to this discussion? The point is that it is so inexpensive to assemble the kits in China that there is no significant cost savings in making them kits.
No, actually, it wasn't clear you were being hyperbolic.
I have no fundamental disagreement that the manufacturing cost difference between kits and RTR is relatively insignificant. Somebody's got to be paid to to make sure that the kits have the right parts in the right number in the right box or to assemble said parts into a unit. What I have is a major disagreement (with HO types primarily) that RTR (warning, hyperbole coming) is the source of all evil, is killing the hobby and is part of a vast conspiracy to make the manufacturers so filthy rich that they can afford a fleet of Gulfstream V's.
As so many of those in HO forget, N scale has been RTR from the get go. If it's OK for N, why not for other scales? It doesn't stop people from doing things like this: http://www.trainboard.com/grapevine/showthread.php?t=118362 . ( hope the pics show up as some sites require you to be signed in) or this: http://tinyurl.com/2965acs or this: http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showgallery.php/cat/1204
Our very own Dave Vollmer hasn't let the lack of loco kits prevent him from doing work like this: http://www.thevollmerfamily.com/Pennsy/Roster/H10.jpg and this http://www.thevollmerfamily.com/Pennsy/Roster/M1.jpg
OK, I cheated and showed pics of locomotives, not cars. Same prinicipal applies.
Edit note to the power's that installed word nanny software H O e r 's is not a bad word,
Well, maybe it is to rabid N scalers.
'
andrechapelon YoHo1975I'm sorry, do you two think that disproving my Hyperbole (and it was clearly hyperbole) has any relevance at all to this discussion? The point is that it is so inexpensive to assemble the kits in China that there is no significant cost savings in making them kits. No, actually, it wasn't clear you were being hyperbolic. I have no fundamental disagreement that the manufacturing cost difference between kits and RTR is relatively insignificant. Somebody's got to be paid to to make sure that the kits have the right parts in the right number in the right box or to assemble said parts into a unit. What I have is a major disagreement (with HO types primarily) that RTR (warning, hyperbole coming) is the source of all evil, is killing the hobby and is part of a vast conspiracy to make the manufacturers so filthy rich that they can afford a fleet of Gulfstream V's.
My aren't we being picular today--lol!
But really the issue may not be the vast conspiracy to deprive a whole segment of a market from getting its needs met. It may be that there is no imagination on the side of some mfg's to look into more cost effective ways of tool and die making for those molds---
My primary crab was more involved in getting ppl into thinking that one can spin off some of this stuff and continue making the dang kits for the poor H O scale guys---who are still, after all, part of a market. At least that was what I thought they were
andrechapelon Edit note to the power's that installed word nanny software H O e r 's is not a bad word, Well, maybe it is to rabid N scalers.
Hey! Leave us N scalers out of this----
BRAKIE BTW..There are several newly tooled cars in the RTR line and some of those older cars are heavly upgraded..
Very true, but there are also MANY that are EXACTLY the same except for the metal wheel sets and better paint jobs.
It truely is a item by item situation.
How would they do that, Barry? If you're re-tooling an item because your old tooling is wearing out, what good is worn out tooling to some upstart new manufacturer? And why invest in obsolete tooling if the tooling is still physically adequate but not up tp current standards? Suppose GM had the original tooling in good shape for making 1957 Chevies? Who would be dumb enough to buy that tooling and manufacture a '57 Chevy in 2010, even as a kit?
. The issue's never been one about kits vs. RTR anyway. It's been about money. The first Athearn kit I ever bought was a Lackawanna box car I purchased in 1957/ Assuming the identical car was available today completely unchanged from the 1957 version and it was priced consistent with inflation, it would retail for $10 (it was $1.29 in '57). Change the horn hooks to McHenry's and the wheels to metal and you're probably looking at $12. If Athearn tried to retail that kit at $12, there'd still be the unholy wailing and gnashing of teeth.
People want kits? Here's a link to Intermountain's HO kit page. http://www.imrcmodels.com/ho/hokit.htm Notice the prices? Most of these are undecs. Paint and decals will up the price. And here's the link to Intermountain's N scale kit page. http://www.imrcmodels.com/n/nkit.htm It's not about kits. It's about the lust people just refuse to be honest about, the lust for cheap trains..
BTW, is anyone willing to pay $40 for that Centralia Shops undec Santa Fe caboose kit when Athearn will sell you a painted and lettered RTR version for less than half the price? The Athearn doesn't have as much detail, but even if it's not cheap, it is cheaper.
Like I said, it ain't about kits, it's about cheap.
andrechapelonHow would they do that, Barry? If you're re-tooling an item because your old tooling is wearing out, what good is worn out tooling to some upstart new manufacturer? And why invest in obsolete tooling if the tooling is still physically adequate but not up tp current standards? Suppose GM had the original tooling in good shape for making 1957 Chevies? Who would be dumb enough to buy that tooling and manufacture a '57 Chevy in 2010, even as a kit?
You'd be surprised at that--check out the sites here--
www.carsinc.com
www.dynacornclassicbodies.com
www.experi-metal.com
www.goodmarkindustries.com
www.yearone.com
These guys did their own tooling and such from older dies and such as well---
Shows what can be done nowadays---without necessarily busting the bank---
In my heart of hearts I will always buy American if I can, call it what you will but when you've had a job pulled out from under you along with 300 of your fellow coworkers because some bean counter said it was more cost effective to the bottom line to move the entire operation over to India the words foreign made tend to leave a bad taste in your mouth. That being said in true reality our country has gone so far to one side it's completely disgusting to see just about everything you pick up made in China or some place else. Heck even a lot of the food sold in grocery stores comes form countries other then the US. If you don't believe me take a trip with your wife to the super market the next time she goes shopping and check out the produce isle.
You can say what you want but good manufactured in China are generally substandard and inferior take for example in our hobby Bachmann trains. Yes some of you have had good if not great luck with them but when a company has a policy that if you send it back because of a problem they almost inevitably send you a new one. What does that say about pride in workmanship and quality control. What ever happen to repair instead of replace. Unfortunately back in the real world if we want any decent amount of rolling stock, locomotives, structure kits etc. on our layout we really aren't left with much of a choice but to buy good manufactured in any country other then the US. On the flip side of the coin there aren't too many of us who don't covet brass locomotives. I didn't say own or could afford to own but lets all be honest we're like Pavlov's dogs when it comes to brass show us one and we instantly start to drool. Where are the bulk of them made, well the older more coveted higher quality models are/were made in Japan and most of the newer still relatively high price models are made in Korea. I don't believe there are too many of us who wouldn't want any of them regardless of where they are made. I have a Trix Big boy a nice foreign made locomotive but it still took my American dollars to buy it and it is a high quality piece worth the prices they fetch.
Thats the whole thing in a nutshell is that $25-$35 ready to run car regardless of where it's made worth it, only you can answer that. I visited a rather large layout where the owner had nothing but top quality everything. All NCE radio throttle must have been 10 or12 sitting in pockets around the layout, All high quality rolling stock I would say 90% of the freight cars were brass and all of the passenger equipment was brass and so on and so on. This guy had more tied up in his layout then my house cost.......lol but he could afford it so it's all relative.
Me I shop on the bargain or sale table, walk till my feet feel like they are going to bust out of my shoes at train shows just to find "a deal" because I can't afford to pay the prices that some of these manufacturers are asking no matter how well it's made or how detailed it is etc. So what if I got a great deal on some ready to run rolling stock when I can't afford to put food on the table or gas in my truck. It's all where your priority's are.
That's all well and good, Barry, but this is rather specialized stuff. Athearn BB relative to the HO market was "mass" (relatively) produced stuff. If Model Power brought out the old Mantua line as kits instead of or in additiont to RTR, how many people do you think would be buying the kits? For that matter, except as kitbash fodder, who wants a Mantua Pacific except as kitbash fodder (which raises the cost ante considerably by the time you're done)..
In any case, you can still get Silver Streak kits from Ye Olde Huff and Puff and Suydam kits are available from Alpine. A Silver Streak caboose that cost you $3.25 40-50 years ago, however, will cost you $26 today. Just because it's old tooling (updated or otherwise) doesn't guarantee low price. In any case, the AMB kit based on the same prototype (SP C30-1) that costs a lot more is a better choice because it's far more accurate.
Don't get me wrong,. I'm not against kits, just against regarding the past with rose colored glasses.
Or would that be blinders.?
I have to agree with Andre, the whole kit thing is a red herring. If you want to buy kits, they are still available in HO. Not from big names like Atlas, Athearn, and Bowser, but from plenty of small manufacturers. Yes, most of these are not plastic - they are resin and wood. Why? Because resin or wood kits don't involve 5 or 6 figures up front for tooling. And resin or wood is suitable for small batch production - which is all the manufacturer is likely to sell. My bet is that very few of the small manufacturers of car kits sell more than 100 of a given kit in a year - that's how small the kit market really is.
And these small manufacturers don't advertise much in Model Railroader. Why? Because MR believes in encouraging new entrants (and new customers for the big advertisers) to the hobby through easy-to-use RTR.
For the more advanced model railroader, the kits are available. And the kits are easier to modify than plastic RTR. But they still don't sell in large numbers.
Back to the money issue. I guess I'm one of the stupid ones. I have paid $35-$40 for a couple of Micro-Trains and Blackstone HOn3 plastic RTR cars. I did it for the convenience of having something for my HOn3 locomotives to pull while I was building some car kits or laying some track. That has been my approach to the hobby. Buy just enough manufactured track, 1 RTR locomotive, and a few cars (in both HO and HOn3) so that I can set up a basic oval with a spur or two while I am building the dream layout and roster.
Like most of you, I lust after brass or premium plastic locomotives, but have a hard time with the cost. But now I am reconciled to saving for that one special locomotive that exactly matches my layout's needs. That's the only way I can justify that kind of money - to buy just one that will see heavy use. I still can't see paying $300+ for a locomotive isn't what I really, really want. And since it's almost always just me, buying more than one premium locomotive doesn't make sense.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
....modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it's always 1900....
I would point out that the difference between what is available in kits now versus what MDC and Athearn provided is the difference between a craftsman kit and a Shake the box kit. What's people are generally fussing about is the lack of Shake the box kits. A very different beast.
Shake the box kits represented a level of value that is at least perceived to have left the hobby. Personally, I think that's more true in Locos than freight cars, but still. I don't think it's the fact that they were kits, (well there was some pleasure in putting them together) but that they were a huge bang for the buck.
Also as to not purchasing Bachmann. Um, Bachmann has been owned by Kader since the 1980s and as of today 2010. Kader is the contract manufacturer for most if not all the model makers out there. So really, every single car you buy no matter what it says on the box is made by the same company.
YoHo1975I would point out that the difference between what is available in kits now versus what MDC and Athearn provided is the difference between a craftsman kit and a Shake the box kit. What's people are generally fussing about is the lack of Shake the box kits. A very different beast.
What differences are we really looking at between Athearn and MDC and Mantua kits on one hand, and Tichy and Westerfield and Labelle kits on the other hand?
Correct. So are the 99 cent/car train set break-ups at AHC. Interesting that both the shake the box old stock kits and the train set break-ups don't sell at the LHS or at train shows unless it's a popular road name. The unwanted road names sit on the shelves at my LHS, and I see the same boxes at train show after train show. Meanwhile, the more popular road names get snapped up at a premium on eBay.
On my eBay auctions for the past several years of new-in-the box Athearn BB and Roundhouse car kits, road names like PRR and NYC and Conrail brought at least twice as high a final price as the Genesee & Wyoming. Didn't matter whether there actual prototypes for the models or not. For the more obscure road names, I had to add metal trucks and Kadee couplers just to attract bids starting at $1.99.
The "bottom-feeding" portion of the hobby that buys BB and similar is a lot more picky than most posters seem to think. As one of them, I know. If you have a small hobby budget, it doesn't make sense to buy a generic, shake-the-box car kit that you have to strip and repaint as well as replace trucks and couplers to make usable on your layout. Not when the same generic kit is available prepainted in a road name you want with a little searching.
With decals and decal information harder to come by than in the past, and this group being the least likely to own an airbrush, avoiding schemes and road names that don't fit comes naturally.
Fascinating how we keep rehashing the same old topics in this thread.
My observations are:
Most people don't want kits they want RTR. They only buy kits because that's all that's available or they are on a very tight budget.
If you like to build models, there are plenty of parts available. You can "make" your own kit.
There's plenty of building required to get a layout up and going even if you use a lot of RTR. If you want a large layout lots of RTR is mandatory if you want it running in a reasonable amount of time.
How much you pay for things is based on your cash available and your desire for the item.
Enjoy
Paul
Fred,You're basicaly saying the same thing Athearn did-the BB kits was not up to today's standards.I agree..However,they took these kits dress them up,addded metal wheels and the darn things sell.Of course some was retooled.
What I don't understand is the influx of shortline names from Athearn and Atlas/Trainman.
As far as shake the box kits I wonder why Accurail doesn't fell that need since they are readily available?
Again you are correct even us good enoughers wouldn't buy cars that doesn't fill our needs..
BTW..One didn't have to be a "serious" modeler to switch out the X2F for KDs.That was a given and at one time the BB and MDC/Roundhouse kits was the modeler's top choice.Today these modelers-including the so called "serious" modeler are still buying 'em...
As I mention ExactRail has 3 production class of cars that sell at 3 different price levels so,it appears they are trying to keep their cars affordable for everybody.
IRONROOSTERMost people don't want kits they want RTR. They only buy kits because that's all that's available or they are on a very tight budget.
And, if you are on a tight budget, any company that discontinues an affordable kit will take that modeller out of the market. Lets face it. Anyone who is on that tight budget will have to buy from resellers at trainshows---if the prices don't go sky rocketing because of scarcity of that model. A good thing Accurail is still around---as is Exactrail----
IRONROOSTERHow much you pay for things is based on your cash available and your desire for the item
That is, IF the dang thing even is around-----
IRONROOSTER Fascinating how we keep rehashing the same old topics in this thread. My observations are: Most people don't want kits they want RTR. They only buy kits because that's all that's available or they are on a very tight budget.
Paul, on just what "observations" do you base your conclusion? Reviewing the replies made by posters to this thread, those actually responding with a clear preference and not just roundy-round arguments, turns out by my count to be 16 in favor of kits, as opposed to 5 favoring RTR.
blownout cylinder It may be that there is no imagination on the side of some mfg's to look into more cost effective ways of tool and die making for those molds...
It may be that there is no imagination on the side of some mfg's to look into more cost effective ways of tool and die making for those molds...
More cost effective ways of tool and die making for those molds? In the U.S.? You gotta be kidding me.
Machinists and others with the skills and talent to produce such accurate scale models as most people want to buy are not cheap in the U.S. There is NO "cost effective" way to do the tool and die making in the U.S. If there were, trust me, companies like Bowser would still be doing it here. They did for a long, long time, and they did reach out across the U.S. to folks who did that kind of work.
It is actually way cheaper to send the information package including detailed photographs and drawings to China. They then send you a pilot model--that's pretty darn good.
No dealing with eccentric but talented Americans who are hard to pin down to a deadline, etc. No hassles.
UP 4-12-2Machinists and others with the skills and talent to produce such accurate scale models as most people want to buy are not cheap in the U.S. There is NO "cost effective" way to do the tool and die making in the U.S. If there were, trust me, companies like Bowser would still be doing it here. They did for a long, long time, and they did reach out across the U.S. to folks who did that kind of work.
Maybe we should then be like China and work for pennies on the dollar then
Look. It ain't rocket science when you go and have someone who is more interested in doing this than someone who is more into feeding their family. There has to be another reason why the guy would want to do this stuff other than making the $$$$$ all the time. We have created a $$$$ oriented culture here that is slowly strangling your country----
The aftermarket for the auto sector for example---look at the body panels that are being made---are they making them in China? No. Yet we seem to think that the ONLY way thing can be made is in China---your number 1 sector is still manufacturing guys---
CNJ831 IRONROOSTER Fascinating how we keep rehashing the same old topics in this thread. My observations are: Most people don't want kits they want RTR. They only buy kits because that's all that's available or they are on a very tight budget. Paul, on just what "observations" do you base your conclusion? Reviewing the replies made by posters to this thread, those actually responding with a clear preference and not just roundy-round arguments, turns out by my count to be 16 in favor of kits, as opposed to 5 favoring RTR. CNJ831
John,That may well be true but,many modelers fail to realize the generic BB car kit era(meaning all shake the box generic car kits) has ended..Take a closer look at Athearn and the way they are getting more road specific in locomotive details and finer car details..The upcoming RTC 20,900 Acid tank car will be a fine model of a specific freight car and not just another generic tank car lettered UTLX.
The hobby has grownup over the past few years and in left the BB kit era behind..A lot of modelers is resenting this fact..Today's hobby is more demanding for correctly done models instead of those old generic models that once prevailed..
Not so long ago I resisted this move and was slow to realized the hobby has changed leaving me choking in the dust.Sure,they are still unknown thousands of average Joe modelers that has either embrace this new era or choose to remain behind pinning for the "good old days".
CAUTION: Use of Hyperbole very extensive in this post---used to emphasize a point---
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK---time for a different tack--what about AFFORDABILITY? Do we even think of this now?
HELLO!!
What do you think the kid who is not wealthy going to do huh? He's going to stay out of the hobby!
So much for growing a market------
How about the ones who do want to build kits---regardless of how out of date/time they be? They can get other kits yes but Athearns were in point of fact AFFORDABLE!!
Huh---obviously we are more interested in what is convenient----grumble growl mumble snort
Without the intention to start a flame war - we have to remember, that the only reason, why a company is moving their production to China is to reap extra $$$ and improve the bottom line, and not necessarily to provide good products at an affordable price. Yes, we are all racing for bargains, to get the best value for our money. There is nothing wrong on that, unless it starts to kill an economy. For an economy to be able to survive, we need to have a balanced mix of the agricultural sector (feeding us), industrial production (creating marketable values) and the service sector (supporting the first two). Globalization has led to cannibalization of the production sector in most western countries, effecting, that our money is not backed by the necessary amount of values, making it fodder for speculation and inflation. We have been there before...
Globalization is not a one-way street. If moving the production to China means providing them with income they can use to buy in the US, or Germany - any where in the western world, then this will provide the necessary balance. I am afraid, that this is currently not the situation.
Back to the original question. It is my feeling, that the low price situation will end sooner than we expect it to happen. The Chinese are learning fast and the RMB will appreciate quite a lot vs. the USD and the EUR in the long run. We have been there before, when Japan took over the camera market, the car market and the home electronics market. Given the cost of shipping and quality control (quality is still an issue, and will remain so for a long time), there are some industries, which are now looking to in-sourcing strategies.
Would I pay a premium for domestic products? Yes, within the means I can afford. I see this as an investment into the nation I am a member of - be it for R-T-R or kits, that is not an issue
BRAKIETake a closer look at Athearn and the way they are getting more road specific in locomotive details and finer car details..The upcoming RTC 20,900 Acid tank car will be a fine model of a specific freight car and not just another generic tank car lettered UTLX.
The price of all these new RTR kits seems to be getting out of hand, and I think that's a big turnoff for a lot of people who grew up on the BlueBox kits, myself included. But then the cost is relative.
I don't know what the cost of an undec generic tank car would be if it were available today. Let's say $10. A set of Microscale decals is $6.50. A bottle of paint is what, another $4.50? So we're up to $21 already. Then there's the time and money involved with searching for and obtaining any of the details parts you'd need to get the model to approach what the RTR UTLX looks like. And you know what? Once it's all completed, the RTR Athearn car will probably still be better looking.
blownout cylinder CAUTION: Use of Hyperbole very extensive in this post---used to emphasize a point--- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OK---time for a different tack--what about AFFORDABILITY? Do we even think of this now? HELLO!! What do you think the kid who is not wealthy going to do huh? He's going to stay out of the hobby! So much for growing a market------ How about the ones who do want to build kits---regardless of how out of date/time they be? They can get other kits yes but Athearns were in point of fact AFFORDABLE!! Huh---obviously we are more interested in what is convenient----grumble growl mumble snort
Barry,This is from my observation and its a scary thought.
My oldest grandson is a modeler and currently in the Air Force.Every month he ships models home for safe keeping..There isn't a generic car kit among the stuff he buys...
Now where did he get these high modeling standards? Not from good enough modeler Grandpa..
I fully believe his generation of modelers will demand cars and locomotives that is highly detail and detailed for a specific road...
What is affordable?
Good question..How about this? Is it possible the future modelers will have less locomotives and cars because they want the RTR highly detailed cars and locomotives?
The popularity growth of ISLs isn't just a anomoly but,a clue of where this hobby could be heading...
BRAKIE John,That may well be true but,many modelers fail to realize the generic BB car kit era(meaning all shake the box generic car kits) has ended..Take a closer look at Athearn and the way they are getting more road specific in locomotive details and finer car details..The upcoming RTC 20,900 Acid tank car will be a fine model of a specific freight car and not just another generic tank car lettered UTLX. The hobby has grownup over the past few years and in left the BB kit era behind..A lot of modelers is resenting this fact..Today's hobby is more demanding for correctly done models instead of those old generic models that once prevailed..
Quite honestly, Larry, I see the hobby as having evolved away from actual model railroading in the direction of simply collecting and this whole high-priced, accuracy, issue is a direct reflection of that. That's what diverted brass from its earliest years of being a source of motive power and rollingstock of higher detail for layout use to largely a collectibles sub-culture, which was more-or-less (and has remained so) outside of the real model railroading hobby ever since.
If the level of quality layout modeling had advanced dramatically in recent years, then I could see a real need for ultra-accurate RTR models, at the higher prices, to compliment the situation and to allow the hobbyist additional time to even further improve his layout overall. That was one of the original claims made by the RTR folks of what it would do. However, nothing of the sort is apparent and to judge from what one sees in the photo galleries of various forums, the "average" modeler's layout is of no substantially better quality today than a decade or two ago...long before the RTR take-over.
The true rivet counters, who indeed demand high accuracy, have always been a minute segment of the hobby. To this day, the typical hobbyist is a freelancer who pretty much runs what he likes, rather than matching his layout to some highly specific time, place and prototype equipment roster. To be very frank, I'd venture that 75% of hobbyists today wouldn't have any idea of the true accuracy of any given high-end HO model in their possession without depending on someone else on the Internet, or in the pages of MR, telling them so! That being the case, just what is the motivation for 100% accuracy here?
I'm afraid that the hobby has become driven by forces very different from what prevailed prior to the turn of the century, becoming increasing about simply acquiring, while at the same time less and less about good modeling and craftsmanship.
Wow, a lot of post since yesterday! To answer one of the questions on Bachmann as to why the ship new rather than repair. Loco comes in and clerk ships out new one, takes about 5 min. maybe. Loco comes in clerk logs it and sends it over to repair person, by the time it makes it way out maybe an hour has passed. So even at $10.00 an hour (I'm sure a repair person would get more) way one cost .83 cents, way two cost $10.00 or around $9.00 more. Actual cost of item to manufacture including shipping $3.00 to $12.00. Chance of problem with repair 20%, chance of problem with new 5%. It just ends up cheaper to send new! What I want is access to their junk pile!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
------------------------
John,I'm not to sure about that..One thing I have notice is how layouts has improved and some looks far better then they did 10 years ago.Its become obvious that today's modeler can do museum work by using Woodland Scenic material...All my dad had was screen wire,plaster,green paint,twigs and lichen.
Hobby grewup plain and simple and today's modeler is wanting the best and no longer interest in generic..Oddly,I seen this coming years ago and mention it several times and in short many thought that Larry finally lost it.
What give me this hint of things to come? That lowly LL P2K BL2..Our pleas have been heard.
As so many others have said, I buy what fits a need. If it's something I want and it cost $XX, I will save up and get it. It doesn't matter if it's RTR or a kit and it doesn't matter where it's made.
A few year's back, people were bemoaning the cost of Kadee RTR cars, trying to apply the made in the USA equated to the "unusually" high price. Now it seems the most RTR offerings are in the same price range. at least those with the same level of detail.
I too cut my teeth on Athearn BB and MDC/Roundhouse kits (I remember the pain of having to paint the floors!). The big problem I saw was the same kits on the shelves, I just didn't need another DD automobile car from the 40s-50s lettered for ATSF. Now does that mean they won't sell, not sure. As my modeling improved and as I refined what I model, I changed to more accurate models, in many cases, it coincided with the change to RTR hobby-wide. The manufacturers are simply following where the money is. As far as them reading this forum and making a decision to lower prices because folks have found bargains, not going to happen. If you got a bargain, I'm happy for you, but that was at the expense of the retailer, not the manufacturer (in most cases).
Furthermore, I have no problems with painting and decalling my own stuff. I have several locos and cars that are waiting for final details and will go in the paint shop. But I won't expend the time and money to convert a BB to the standard I'm looking for today, there are other aspects of the hobby I enjoy and want to devote time to instead.
The other thing I think many forget, is that we collect over our lifetime. I have somewhere around 300 pieces of rolling stock (in boxes until layout early next year), I didn't buy them all at once. The ones I bought as a kid, most under 5 dollars, are what I could afford and I still only bought a few each year. If I average out those 300 over how long I've been in the hobby, it equates to about 10 a year. Then if you take into consideration some were multipacks and passenger trains, there were some years that virtually nothing was bought.
Bottom line is I have no qualms with the cost, it is a hobby after all and not on the bottom rung of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs pyramid. We have more selection of what we see, have seen or have prototype pictures of than ever before and my only real gripe is that I only have so much room!
Sorry if it was disjointed but wanted to address many of the posts I read.
Ricky
Interesting to see, how this thread has changed direction, from a question on how much one would be willing to pay to the R-T-R vs. kit/scratch building issue, only to arrive at the age-old collector vs. true model railroader question.
Time to move on?
Sir Madog Interesting to see, how this thread has changed direction, from a question on how much one would be willing to pay to the R-T-R vs. kit/scratch building issue, only to arrive at the age-old collector vs. true model railroader question. Time to move on?
No,I think its been a rather interesting topic with several excellent view points and so far its been civilized-far more then it would have been 5 years ago and that speaks well for the current membership and how well the moderators have this forum under control...
Fine with me, Larry. Just wanted to point out the risk we may be running with these issues.
Sir Madog Without the intention to start a flame war - we have to remember, that the only reason, why a company is moving their production to China is to reap extra $$$ and improve the bottom line, and not necessarily to provide good products at an affordable price. Yes, we are all racing for bargains, to get the best value for our money. There is nothing wrong on that, unless it starts to kill an economy. For an economy to be able to survive, we need to have a balanced mix of the agricultural sector (feeding us), industrial production (creating marketable values) and the service sector (supporting the first two). Globalization has led to cannibalization of the production sector in most western countries, effecting, that our money is not backed by the necessary amount of values, making it fodder for speculation and inflation. We have been there before... Globalization is not a one-way street. If moving the production to China means providing them with income they can use to buy in the US, or Germany - any where in the western world, then this will provide the necessary balance. I am afraid, that this is currently not the situation. Back to the original question. It is my feeling, that the low price situation will end sooner than we expect it to happen. The Chinese are learning fast and the RMB will appreciate quite a lot vs. the USD and the EUR in the long run. We have been there before, when Japan took over the camera market, the car market and the home electronics market. Given the cost of shipping and quality control (quality is still an issue, and will remain so for a long time), there are some industries, which are now looking to in-sourcing strategies. Would I pay a premium for domestic products? Yes, within the means I can afford. I see this as an investment into the nation I am a member of - be it for R-T-R or kits, that is not an issue
Sorry, but you are dead wrong on your first paragraph. Companies are moving production to China because the competition already forced them to--not out of pure greed, as some of the folks on these forums want to believe.
You cannot make the $20 (or higher priced, now) can motor in the U.S. when your competition is getting the exact same quality at $4 from China.
You WILL NOT REMAIN IN BUSINESS. The choice faced by many manufacturers is either make the stuff in China, and be able to compete with Atlas, Walthers, etc. on price/quality
OR
Close your doors.
It's not about greed. People don't make trains out of greed--there are way better ways of making money than producing and selling toy, ahem "model", trains. A friend of mine, actually the current boss of Bowser, had to take a 50% personal pay cut after 9/11 to stay in business. He is not getting rich on Chinese labor--he's just trying to stay in business. Lee English would say directly to your face he is trying to provide a quality product at an affordable price.
At my job, which isn't so great either, I'm likely making more money than Lee, especially per hour of time spent at work.
Also, when China becomes expensive, as they surely will, production will move elsewhere. The plastic train manufacturers follow the lead of the brass importers. When Japan became expensive, they moved to Korea. When Korea (think Samhongsa and Ajin Precision) became expensive, they opened factories in China. When China becomes expensive, production will move to some other developing country--but it won't be moving back here.
UP 4-12-2 Sir Madog Without the intention to start a flame war - we have to remember, that the only reason, why a company is moving their production to China is to reap extra $$$ and improve the bottom line, and not necessarily to provide good products at an affordable price. Yes, we are all racing for bargains, to get the best value for our money. There is nothing wrong on that, unless it starts to kill an economy. For an economy to be able to survive, we need to have a balanced mix of the agricultural sector (feeding us), industrial production (creating marketable values) and the service sector (supporting the first two). Globalization has led to cannibalization of the production sector in most western countries, effecting, that our money is not backed by the necessary amount of values, making it fodder for speculation and inflation. We have been there before... Globalization is not a one-way street. If moving the production to China means providing them with income they can use to buy in the US, or Germany - any where in the western world, then this will provide the necessary balance. I am afraid, that this is currently not the situation. Back to the original question. It is my feeling, that the low price situation will end sooner than we expect it to happen. The Chinese are learning fast and the RMB will appreciate quite a lot vs. the USD and the EUR in the long run. We have been there before, when Japan took over the camera market, the car market and the home electronics market. Given the cost of shipping and quality control (quality is still an issue, and will remain so for a long time), there are some industries, which are now looking to in-sourcing strategies. Would I pay a premium for domestic products? Yes, within the means I can afford. I see this as an investment into the nation I am a member of - be it for R-T-R or kits, that is not an issue Sorry, but you are dead wrong on your first paragraph. Companies are moving production to China because the competition already forced them to--not out of pure greed, as some of the folks on these forums want to believe. You cannot make the $20 (or higher priced, now) can motor in the U.S. when your competition is getting the exact same quality at $4 from China. You WILL NOT REMAIN IN BUSINESS. The choice faced by many manufacturers is either make the stuff in China, and be able to compete with Atlas, Walthers, etc. on price/quality OR Close your doors. It's not about greed. People don't make trains out of greed--there are way better ways of making money than producing and selling toy, ahem "model", trains. A friend of mine, actually the current boss of Bowser, had to take a 50% personal pay cut after 9/11 to stay in business. He is not getting rich on Chinese labor--he's just trying to stay in business. Lee English would say directly to your face he is trying to provide a quality product at an affordable price. At my job, which isn't so great either, I'm likely making more money than Lee, especially per hour of time spent at work. John
Lee English is my former boss, actually my first boss ever, and I consider him a friend, though I'm not a "close" friend (I'm closer to the store sales manager). Lee and his (now retired) parents have known me since I was about 5 years old.
Quite frankly, he's often quite busy, with his hands very full, just trying to run his company to be able to come on here, follow discussions, and post.
I also have absolutely no right to speak on Lee or Bowser's behalf--but I very much believe he would say he is trying "to provide a quality product at a good price". That's all they've ever tried to do in the 36 years I've known them, whether it be made here or somewhere else. I'm proud to be able to say I once made the stuff, too. It was indeed challenging work.
Bowser is not a large company--but anyone who wishes may contact them through their website. They have some real modelers working there who will either forward questions on to Lee or answer them directly. People have provided them useful information through email that has resulted in new products. This is actually ongoing. They are becoming more responsive to their prospective customers than ever before.
Jobless people don´t buy trains.
Remember the heydays of the hobby? Those glorious 1950´s and 1960´s? Trains were expensive, much more expensive than today, but people had jobs, an income and a perspective. That´s why they also spent money on trains - for their children (that´s us now) and for themselves.
I agree, it may be too late already, as most of the "toy" (no offense meant, but that´s what it is) production has moved to China and the price level is rock bottom. If China gets too expensive, moving on may not be an option - too few modelers left.
But I just don´t believe in this "Move to China or bust" - argument any longer.
So if those importers/manufacturers are not making any money, why stay in business at all? I guess we all would be surprised, when some of those companies would have to publish their financial results. Only few are in the business just for the love of model railroading.
I wish Bowser would still make those PRR loco kits, I´d pay a good price for it, because I know the care that went into this product. Call me old-fashioned, if you like.
First off, affordability's a relative term. Seocndly, I wouldn't feel all that sorry for those "poor" kids who go around with cell phones, lap tops and iPods while wearing designer label clothes. And these aren't the "wealthy" ones.
When I bought my first Athearn kit in 1957, a D&LW 40's box car, it was $1.29. My allowance at the time was 50 cents/week, so that car cost the better part of 3 weeks allowance. $1.29 may sound affordable, but if you're only getting 50 cents a week, trust me, it's expensive.
Fast forward to today. I'm retired and on essentially a fixed income. However, my wife and I were very conservative financially. We never had any credit card debt, never used our house as an ATM, never bought a car than we could not afford to pay off in 3 years or less and certainly never lived in the type of house that goes by the term "McMansion". We managed to put 4 kids through college and acquire vacation real estate. Everything we own is paid for and we have no debt.
Our annual income is about 10% above the US median income, so we're not multiple standard deviations above the median. Still, we're probably considerably better off than a family with mortgage debt, car payments and 2 or 3 kids still at home. OTOH, we were in that situation at one time and somehow managed our finances so that the situation was temporary, which is the way it should be. Neither I nor Athearn (nor any model railroad manufacturer) is responsible for how other people manage their money regardless of their ages.
When I was a kid, my mom used to tell me that if I wanted something badly enough, I'd figure out a way to come by it honestly. Amazingly what I found out along the way is that there is a lot of stuff I can easily do without (McMansions, BMW's, 60" plasma TV's, designer label clothes, expensive watches to name a few). Some of my jeans have patches just like they did as a kid when I'd wear a hole in the knee and my mom would patch them (people did that to make things last 50 years ago, some still do).
I just have no sympathy whatsoever with the affordability argument when it comes to discretionary spending on railroad models. You don't need 'em. You can't eat, wear, live in or drive them. If you want a model that badly, find places where you can save enough money to buy it.. Otherwise, do without.
You've indicated an interest in becoming a manufacturer. OK, fine. You make something I want badly enough, I'll figure out a way to buy it. What I won't do is snivel and whine about your pricing. And if you don't make something I really want, hey, I'm no worse off than before and you can join the thousands of of other manufacturers of all types who will never see one red cent from me. You'll be in good company, Gucci, Ferragamo, BMW, Division Point (OK, I'd like some of their stuff, just not enough to be willing to cough up the asking price).
Sir Madog Jobless people don´t buy trains. Remember the heydays of the hobby? Those glorious 1950´s and 1960´s? Trains were expensive, much more expensive than today, but people had jobs, an income and a perspective. That´s why they also spent money on trains - for their children (that´s us now) and for themselves. I agree, it may be too late already, as most of the "toy" (no offense meant, but that´s what it is) production has moved to China and the price level is rock bottom. If China gets too expensive, moving on may not be an option - too few modelers left. But I just don´t believe in this "Move to China or bust" - argument any longer. So if those importers/manufacturers are not making any money, why stay in business at all? I guess we all would be surprised, when some of those companies would have to publish their financial results. Only few are in the business just for the love of model railroading. I wish Bowser would still make those PRR loco kits, I´d pay a good price for it, because I know the care that went into this product. Call me old-fashioned, if you like.
The Blue Box kits are interesting, because you're right, inevitably, the Pennsy, ATSF, UP stuff would sell and the rest would sit there. But if they didn't make the stuff then people would complain.
It's less of a problem if you model 1960s onwards. As you're as likely to see any roadname on the train. And a TTX well car will work on any line. But again, BB kits were never made for those modern prototypes, so how they would sell is nothing but a guess.
I model from roughly the late 70s through current, and my big issue is locomotives. I see lots of people at train shows running a single very fancy Diesel engine on the point of a train. That's great, that DCC+Sound engine probably cost north of $200. good for you, but I'd like my SP freight to look realistic.
That means 5 or more units probably 3 tunnel motors, an SD45R and an SD40R and if it's really a big consist, maybe a 4 axle unit in there 2. 5 of those units, even at the $80 DC base price for Athearn RTR is $400 once you start talking DCC, you're looking at close to $600 and if you're talking Sound, it could easily exceed $1000. For just 1 train's loco consist.
If you've got a small layout with a handful of units, it's not so bad, but if you're interested in big time modern operations on a club or big home layout, it WILL be a problem.
With Blue Box, that cost was less. Maybe not much less, but every penny saved is a penny to use on something else.
That's my problem. And I'm thinking mainly of in a club setting for me personally.
YoHo1975I wonder if this conversation would take a different tack if the economy and people's paychecks and retirement accounts were in a different place right now?
Sir MadogI wish Bowser would still make those PRR loco kits, I´d pay a good price for it, because I know the care that went into this product. Call me old-fashioned, if you like.
I'm not here to call people names. Maybe my opinions will not agree with others, but I'm likely nearly as "old fashioned" as you.
An unofficial source told me they did an accounting and realized the yearly sales of Bowser kits were down to less than 1/3 of the employee payroll. Now, maybe a little bit of that time was also connected to the internet/mail order business (selling other people's products) but the stark reality was that production of the kits could not continue.
They were losing money on the kits, period, no matter how you'd do the accounting. Unfortunately, real American jobs were lost. People that knew me years ago and were still there...
I work in civil engineering consulting--which quite frankly is a bad business right now with work dried up. If I could figure out a way to make an honest living in the model train business, which I do love, don't you think I'd do it in a minute?
Even as a sales manager of a fine train store, I could not support my family on the income they pay for the 50 to 60 hours per week they have to work. That's even if I was a good enough sales person to be the manager. (I have a friend who is--and I'm just not that good with people--though I loved retail train sales and miss it).
Sir Madog Jobless people don´t buy trains.
Actually, I believed that to be true in the past, and Lewis K. English, Sr., the long-time owner of Bowser, now about 93 years old, set me straight on this issue.
Actually, jobless people do buy trains! Unemployed men attempt to forget about their problems through various means--which usually does involve their favorite hobby--and even spending more time/money on it than when they are working.
Now, since right after 9/11, the train business has suffered and has not fully recovered, and perhaps this "recession" or more appropriately, depression, is a bit different than others, but Lew English made it crystal clear to me on more than one occasion that, historically, when the economy was bad their business actually picked up!
Nowadays, with the internet, and people shopping for the lowest possible price everywhere, it's more a case of "holding your own"--holding the market you have.
The really good train dealers are basically trying to hold their own and maintain what they have--but sales aren't really down significantly if you average them out over the course of a whole year. It's hard to know for sure, because there were down years in the past, too.
Profits in the train business?
I have no idea what the actual profits are. I know the English's lived cheap all those years.
I know that famous train dealers like John Glaab are fond of saying "Wanna make a small fortune in the train business--then start with a large fortune".
Sure there is profit, but if you think only in terms of profit you will not last. The manufacturers generally do this because they love trains more than money--because there's way better ways to make money.
I have no idea of the actual profit in the train business, but I don't know anybody who lives other than a middle class existence.
My 2c.
andrechapelonYou've indicated an interest in becoming a manufacturer. OK, fine. You make something I want badly enough, I'll figure out a way to buy it. What I won't do is snivel and whine about your pricing. And if you don't make something I really want, hey, I'm no worse off than before and you can join the thousands of of other manufacturers of all types who will never see one red cent from me. You'll be in good company, Gucci, Ferragamo, BMW, Division Point (OK, I'd like some of their stuff, just not enough to be willing to cough up the asking price).
MY--you got quite piculous about this particular topic didn't you? I thought I'd get you out of the woodwork---You see, the thing is that there is still an idea about growing a market---at some point--we want people to buy at some point right? Can't do it if the price is so high that the only one who can is a guy who is buying McClaren Supercars---Or the new Bugatti's---
----but then again-----
CNJ831IRONROOSTER Fascinating how we keep rehashing the same old topics in this thread. My observations are: Most people don't want kits they want RTR. They only buy kits because that's all that's available or they are on a very tight budget. Paul, on just what "observations" do you base your conclusion? Reviewing the replies made by posters to this thread, those actually responding with a clear preference and not just roundy-round arguments, turns out by my count to be 16 in favor of kits, as opposed to 5 favoring RTR. CNJ831
My observations at hobby stores, train shows, and new product announcements. Fewer kits are in evidence and the ratio has been shifting toward RTR. The hobby store nearest to me stopped carrying Athearn kits a few years ago (the others were already gone). Kits are still available, but it is becoming a niche market and dealers stock fewer of them if they have them at all. OTOH, everyone seems to carry RTR.
And manufacturers are dropping kits - Athearn is just the latest one - in favor of RTR.
Look at On30, it took off with Bachmann's RTR line.
The great popularity of hirail where it's all RTR. And N which has been mostly RTR for years.
All of this says to me the market wants RTR more than kits.
I'm not sure this forum is representative of the marketplace, but I sense that much of the concern is over price - the loss of low cost rolling stock.
I admit it's all anecdotal, but no one's releasing sales figures for kits and RTR.
IRONROOSTER All of this says to me the market wants RTR more than kits. I'm not sure this forum is representative of the marketplace, but I sense that much of the concern is over price - the loss of low cost rolling stock. I admit it's all anecdotal, but no one's releasing sales figures for kits and RTR.
I'm not really sure the data we are looking for will be forthcoming either.
Hence we are only speculating about this whole trend, but, the nature of the forums that I've been on is still indicating that a LOT of modellers are not happy about the loss of all these kits and such. That is a segment that is seeing losses--
Look--even if it is a niche market--that market segment will still exist
blownout cylinder...Hence we are only speculating about this whole trend, but, the nature of the forums that I've been on is still indicating that a LOT of modellers are not happy about the loss of all these kits and such. That is a segment that is seeing losses-- Look--even if it is a niche market--that market segment will still exist
I understand that it's tough seeing old favorites get dropped. But while everybody moaned about the end of Bowser locomotive kits, how many went and bought some?
I agree that there will always be kit builders, just like there will always be scratch builders. Question is: how big is the market for kits? That is, not just how many actually buy them, but, also, how many do they buy?
dm9538Let's say we pay on average about $25 to $35 for an RTR freight car with a high level of detail that is produced largely China.
dm9538Question 2 Would you still pay the same $25 to $35 for the same car produced in the US but with less detail. how much less detail I'm not really sure.
IRONROOSTER I agree that there will always be kit builders, just like there will always be scratch builders. Question is: how big is the market for kits? That is, not just how many actually buy them, but, also, how many do they buy
I agree that there will always be kit builders, just like there will always be scratch builders. Question is: how big is the market for kits? That is, not just how many actually buy them, but, also, how many do they buy
Look. Let us suggest that the market is big enough to talk about it as a cottage industry--enough to maybe give someone enough pin money to get a few extra xmas presents at the end of the year---that market will still exist.
And yet--it will live
blownout cylinder IRONROOSTER I agree that there will always be kit builders, just like there will always be scratch builders. Question is: how big is the market for kits? That is, not just how many actually buy them, but, also, how many do they buy Look. Let us suggest that the market is big enough to talk about it as a cottage industry--enough to maybe give someone enough pin money to get a few extra xmas presents at the end of the year---that market will still exist. And yet--it will live
IRONROOSTER CNJ831 IRONROOSTER Fascinating how we keep rehashing the same old topics in this thread. My observations are: Most people don't want kits they want RTR. They only buy kits because that's all that's available or they are on a very tight budget. Paul, on just what "observations" do you base your conclusion? Reviewing the replies made by posters to this thread, those actually responding with a clear preference and not just roundy-round arguments, turns out by my count to be 16 in favor of kits, as opposed to 5 favoring RTR. CNJ831 My observations at hobby stores, train shows, and new product announcements. Fewer kits are in evidence and the ratio has been shifting toward RTR. The hobby store nearest to me stopped carrying Athearn kits a few years ago (the others were already gone). Kits are still available, but it is becoming a niche market and dealers stock fewer of them if they have them at all. OTOH, everyone seems to carry RTR. And manufacturers are dropping kits - Athearn is just the latest one - in favor of RTR. Look at On30, it took off with Bachmann's RTR line. The great popularity of hirail where it's all RTR. And N which has been mostly RTR for years. All of this says to me the market wants RTR more than kits. I'm not sure this forum is representative of the marketplace, but I sense that much of the concern is over price - the loss of low cost rolling stock. I admit it's all anecdotal, but no one's releasing sales figures for kits and RTR.
Paul, in response to your basis for believing that the desire for RTR far outweighs that for kits today, let me again point to some situations I've posted earlier that would tend to indicate that things aren't necessarily what they might seem to you.
As I've said, Horizon/Athearn apparently curtailed the availability of its own supposedly "available" BB kits 12 to 24 months prior to announcing that kits were no longer selling. How does one judge the salability of a product that is essentially not even being produced? Likewise, the decision to drop the line was essentially Horizon's and from what I was told (pretty much directly); no Athearn market research was presented at the brief critical meeting when the final decision was made.
Now the people at Horizon are certainly no fools when it comes to the hobby industry. They appreciate that the hobby market is steadily shrinking and to maintain a certain level of profit under the circumstances, reducing production runs and increasing prices is the best answer. It was not possible to double the price of the long established kits, but it was reasonable to offer them RTR to justify the increase. The production cost difference between the two would be small, but the profit margin per unit sold significantly larger. Likewise, if kits weren't available to many hobbyists - particularly those newbies with ready cash, a small but very significant faction in the hobby today doing much of the purchasing - they would be left with little other choice.
That a number of other manufacturers followed Horizon/Athearn into RTR while dropping, or curtailing, their kits, is no surprise either. However, not all were successful in doing so. They appreciated that they were likely to garner a better profit per sale and by limiting runs, get it faster than kit sales would ever allow.
I will agree with you that this, or most other "popular" forums, aren't a very good place to gauge what is actually going on in the marketplace, as they are highly bias toward newcomers and younger (under 45) hobbyists, who are a minority. In fact, I know relatively few hobbyists over 55 that are on-line. Those that are participate mainly in the highly specialized, advanced, forums from what I've seen and do reflect a totally different approach to the hobby than is seen here.
You pointed out the great popularity of RTR in Hi-Rail, but I would counter that Hi-Rail hasn't been regarded as part of the adult scale model railroading hobby in over 50 years. In addition, when MR and RMC ousted that pursuit from the our hobby, N gauge was yet to exist. One has to wonder just where it would have fallen in this schism, considering that HO, OO and TT were all considered truly craftsman's gauges at the time, while N was much more RTR oriented.
An additional point worthy of comment; in years long past, most of the hobby's companies were owned by actual hobbyists. Many loved the hobby so much that they would tend to sacrifice profits to keep it affordable and expanding. Today, the majors are for the most part simply businesses run by boards, few members of whom have any direct relationship with the practicing the hobby any longer. Some of the smaller companies are still old-school, but in the changing marketplace they are often seem uncomfortably close of the survival/non-survival line.
Finally, those fully aware of the hobby's history understand that Irv Athearn, truly the hobby's 800 lbs gorilla, was the controlling influence in the hobby pricing for decades, keeping them very reasonable for the hobbyist. Long before he gave up the reins of his company, I had pointed out to others that I felt once he was gone hobby pricing would go out of control. Try graphing locomotive prices from the 1970's to today and see the dramatic upsurge that takes place just a few years after Irv passed from the scene...and it's still accelerating.
People keep on saying the hobby is shrinking, this is not the case (as far as numbers goes), now as a percentage, yes it is dramatically but manufactures look at numbers and not percentages. Most of the people I regularly talk to either online or in person would not own MR mag and a great deal only go to hobby shops for bits a pieces. In fact I know a dozen or more manufactures that are expanding their lines or building new companies from the ground up, now these are craftsman kit manufactures but they are a growing part of the hobby and there are a lot of people into that that are only into that just as there are people that are only interested in a plywood central.
rrebell People keep on saying the hobby is shrinking, this is not the case (as far as numbers goes), now as a percentage, yes it is dramatically but manufactures look at numbers and not percentages. Most of the people I regularly talk to either online or in person would not own MR mag and a great deal only go to hobby shops for bits a pieces. In fact I know a dozen or more manufactures that are expanding their lines or building new companies from the ground up, now these are craftsman kit manufactures but they are a growing part of the hobby and there are a lot of people into that that are only into that just as there are people that are only interested in a plywood central.
And you have actual citable statistics that backs up your statement? Please, by all means post them!
I've been asking here for the better part of ten years now for someone, anyone, to produce verifiable evidence that the hobby isn't shrinking, because I've found plenty of material that indicates it is. Over the years a lot of personal opinion, all lacking anything to substantiate it, has been voiced here, but in all that time not one single bit of factual evidence has ever surfaced. Kinda odd, don't you think?
I will agree, however, that there is a very significant percentage of advanced hobbyists who today choose not to read MR, or participate in most forums (this I've pointed this out myself many times), who are avid kit builders, but many, if not most, of those folks were formerly scratchbuilders who have switched approaches. They are not some new segment of model railroading that is generating totally new hobbyists in numbers. Nearly all that I encounter are past middle age and thus their numbers are in decline, just as with the hobby overall. The fact that the field of craftsman kit manufacturing has expanded in recent years is largely because the prime company in this field pretty much priced a lot of its former customer base out of the market, leaving an opening for newcomers (but look where most of the new guys' pricing has gone of late!).
CNJ831Finally, those fully aware of the hobby's history understand that Irv Athearn, truly the hobby's 800 lbs gorilla, was the controlling influence in the hobby pricing for decades, keeping them very reasonable for the hobbyist. Long before he gave up the reins of his company, I had pointed out to others that I felt once he was gone hobby pricing would go out of control. Try graphing locomotive prices from the 1970's to today and see the dramatic upsurge that takes place just a few years after Irv passed from the scene...and it's still accelerating. CNJ831
What's that old line about "money talks and BS walks"? It's easy to say one is for kits since it doesn't cost anything, it's a whole other matter to lay out the cash for them. It doesn't matter what people say, it's what they actually do. Yet, amazingly, kits are available, just not the mass produced screw-driver assembly kits anymore. Somebody's buying kits, just not in massive Athearn BB numbers. and more are being produced every year. La Belle Woodworking has been in business since 1947. Somebody's got to be buying their kits else they'd have gone out of business years ago.
You can still get Silver Streak kits from Ye Olde Huff N Puff. They ain't cheap (costing about as much as a plastic RTR car), but they're still available. So are a number of the Suydam kits now available from Alpine. However, they represent an earlier era and don't quite fit in with anyone modeling later than the early post-steam era.
Whether there are or are not more modern era kits available is of little consequence to those of us stuck in the steam or steam/diesel transition era since we wouldn't buy modern era items anyway, kits or RTR. I personally don't care that you can't get an SD70ACe kit because I wouldn't buy an SD70ACe under any circumstances. Whether or not it's produced as a kit, RTR or both ways is up to those who will actually pony up the cash for one and the manufacturer's determination of what produces the best return.
An additional point worthy of comment; in years long past, most of the hobby's companies were owned by actual hobbyists. Many loved the hobby so much that they would tend to sacrifice profits to keep it affordable and expanding.
Yeah, and they're out of business now. How does that help the hobby? Varney, Mantua, Penn-Line, John English, J-C Models, Tru-Scale, to name a few. The ones that were successful and survived changed with the hobby instead of trying (like Henry Ford with the Model T) to sell the same thing year after year after year. It does a fat lot of good for the hobby (not to mention your business) if you're a manufacturer who thinks you can sell at a unit loss and make it up on volume. Love of the hobby is one thing. Love of the hobby in the absence of good business sense is idiocy and only leads to bankruptcy.
. Andre
andrechapelon Love of the hobby is one thing. Love of the hobby in the absence of good business sense is idiocy and only leads to bankruptcy. . Andre
Love of the hobby is one thing. Love of the hobby in the absence of good business sense is idiocy and only leads to bankruptcy.
So does pricing your product ever higher in an attempt to find out what is the absolute maximum the traffic will bear. When the big boys with all that supposed business sense, but no understanding of, or really caring about, the hobbyist, allow prices to soar beyond the point of no return and it all comes tumbling down, look for them to leave the shambles and convert to the manufacture of electric razors, or something similar without caring, or missing a beat.
andrechapelonWhat's that old line about "money talks and BS walks"? It's easy to say one is for kits since it doesn't cost anything, it's a whole other matter to lay out the cash for them. It doesn't matter what people say, it's what they actually do. .
What's that old line about "money talks and BS walks"? It's easy to say one is for kits since it doesn't cost anything, it's a whole other matter to lay out the cash for them. It doesn't matter what people say, it's what they actually do. .
Whether there are or are not more modern era kits available is of little consequence to those of us stuck in the steam or steam/diesel transition era since we wouldn't buy modern era items anyway, kits or RTR.
Your assertion is dead wrong on Henry Ford too. Athearn survived for how many decades on the Model T formula? They didn't need to innovate their process, they needed to produce different kits and make the changes to keep prices down. Anecdotally, when I'm at the club, the people running transition era are usually 75% shake the box kits. 10% RTR and 15% craftsman kits. Engines are usually fancy new Steam. For the Modern guys, it's all RTR, because that's all they can get. But the people that can use BB kits have them.
I know of at least 10 craftsman kit manufactures that did not exist 10 years ago and another 5 that are new but the bulk of their offerings are not and if you go back 30 years such names as MTH and Scenic Express did not exist plus hundreds of others. What you ask, to document is impossible because a lot of companies don't even advertise let alone share data. Also a majority of people in the hobby are lone wolves. You can't judge from MR sales or who advertises there, of the people I know only I subscribe to MR and that may be ending soon unless they offer a deal like last time that hooked me in for 3 years (first time I subscribed and my currant incarnation as a model railroader is over 20 years), just dropped my Gazette subscription. So if you can think of a way to document I would be happy to do so.
I just thought, show me documentation that the hobby is declining!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
rrebell I just thought, show me documentation that the hobby is declining!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wouldn't work. Nobody believes in the data-----
Oh I would beleive it but it has to be hard numbers!!!!!!!!!!!! Most of what you see as decline are surveys of people that belong to the NMRA and such, your average modeler dose not belong to them and many never have. What you see out there is change and we are into even bigger changes in the near future and they will come faster and faster.
That is true, almost all of the value in being a part of the NMRA and getting model railroader has been replaced by the internet. This is a nice forum and all, but there a bunch out there just as good that don't require a subscription.
I won't mention the competition (don't want this thread locked) but there is even an online mag for free that is very good.
It looks like this tread lost it's air brakes a long time a go, better get ready to jump before it comes to the bottom of the grade..............lol
rrebell Oh I would beleive it but it has to be hard numbers!!!!!!!!!!!! Most of what you see as decline are surveys of people that belong to the NMRA and such, your average modeler dose not belong to them and many never have. What you see out there is change and we are into even bigger changes in the near future and they will come faster and faster.
I suggest that you go back and look up some of the extensive threads that addressed this subject and to which I supplied pages of cited, verifiable, information. Nobody here bothers to do research, but are overly willing to offer contrary baseless opinion without end. The real information is out there...one only needs to carefully look for and then accept it.
CNJ831 rrebell Oh I would beleive it but it has to be hard numbers!!!!!!!!!!!! Most of what you see as decline are surveys of people that belong to the NMRA and such, your average modeler dose not belong to them and many never have. What you see out there is change and we are into even bigger changes in the near future and they will come faster and faster. I suggest that you go back and look up some of the extensive threads that addressed this subject and to which I supplied pages of cited, verifiable, information. Nobody here bothers to do research, but are overly willing to offer contrary baseless opinion without end. The real information is out there...one only needs to carefully look for and then accept it. CNJ831
EDIT: rrebell, type "hobby dying" without quotes into the Search Community box, you'll see the threads
The only way any of this becomes relevant to the original topic is if manufacturers are considering the shrinking or growing number of modelers in their strategic plan. I've replied to previous threads on this topic and while I may not entirely agree with CNJ831, he is absolutely correct in that most of us putting more feeling than fact (guilty as charged) into our responses. In the end, it really doesn't matter what the hobby is doing as long as there are people willing to take the chance on producing stuff for it.
Manufacturers come and go, some evolve, some get absorbed into other compaines. It is not unique to the model railroad world. While there are some examples of companies that continue to hang on with their existing products and methods, they usually represent a very small share in the overall market. For whatever reason, some companies have figured that kits still fit into their strategic plan while others have gone strictly RTR. There are many smaller companies making kits, most very speciallized and small runs resulting in kits that cost as much as RTR.
If you want relatively low cost, highly detailed and made in the USA (or whatever country you hail from), I would recommend scratchbuilding. Boxcars, flat cars, reefers some hopper/covered hoppers and gondolas can be made from sheet/strip styrene, commercial doors, wire, commercial trucks and couplers and other commercial superdetailing parts if you don't want to make them yourself. Tank cars, hoppers, covered hoppers (like center flow) and others may be a bit tougher due to complex curves and such but not impossible. Plans are out there in print, on the internet or can be derived from photos. Paint is readily available as are most decals, but if not, make you're own.
Finally, if your happy with minimal detail, great, if you want more detail, be prepared to pay a little more. If you need to change and adapt to the changing hobby, welcome to the world as it is constantly changing and evolving (or devolving)
Well I did as you suggested and only found out about the state of hobby shops in Arkansas (which is good by the way). The only other hard facts I could find out there were the new conventions opening up to more and more people every year and the decline of companies like Gats but they were their own worst enemy as I have dealt directly with them and they didn't want to change! I thought they had died completely but it seams that they are still around only much smaller and another company is slowly grabbing their old territory. The reason Gats died is 4 or 5 things, First table prices doubled, additional fees doubled (less tables, less people like me bottom feeding), second ticket prices doubled and parking fees went up sometimes with no outside parking. I mean at the last show I went to a friend who had a table paid $75.00 a table for two tables, luckily he did not need power as that is a $75.00 fee or more as union people have to run the extension cord (plug in and drop a cord from above) on top of that $8-10 to park (forgot which was correct for this show) but no free parking for vendors like there used to be.
And don't get me started on idiot vendors at swap meets.
So you've got hard evidence that this is the ultimate goal of the the "big boys" is to charge all the traffic will bear? Do hobby industrry "whistle blowers' have you on speed dial and you're privy to the conspiracy? As for the manufacture of electric razors, I doubt it. The big boys who do that would make sure an upstart attempt from a collapsing BLI, MTH or Athearn failed out of the chute. In any case, if the hobby manufacturers fail, who's going to provide the capital to go into another line of business??
You're basing this so call lack of understanding of the hobbyist on what? There is more being produced in more variety in more scales now than at any time in the past. We have stuff available to us now that we wouldn't even dare dream about not all that long ago. Back when I bought my first piece of rolling stock, only Silver Streak made anything that remotely looked like a prototype SP caboose. Now I can get correct SP cabooses in multiple classes in both RTR and kits in multiple scales. 'Course, I'll pay more than $40 for the kits (e.g. AMB, TraincCat), but these aren't the big boys, so maybe it's the boutique suppliers who are trying to kill the hobby. Either that or they're fellow travelers in the vast conspiracy to bankrupt the poor modeler.
You also seem to forget is that old time modelers weren't all that up to speed on the prototype. I don't have the issue handy, but someone wrote in MR many years ago that he was surprised to find that a lot of model railroaders weren't even interested in the prototype. I don't mean that they weren't interested in a given railroad, but they weren't interested at all in real railroads, they just liked miniature trains.
It's kind of ironic that an N scaler has to pay well over $40 for a TrainCat C30-5/6 caboose kit (less trucks, couplers and undecorated to boot) but Athearn will supply RTR models of the C50-7/8/9 cabeese for an MSRP of $29.98. The problem, of course, is that the C50 series cabooses aren't suitable for the transition era, so there's no substitution. 'Course, if I were a conspiracy theorist, I'd insist that Athearn is trying to kill off transition era modeling in N with their N scale RTR offerings that undercut available N scale transition era rolling stock kits. For that matter, Walther's Platinum Line RTR SP C30-1 caboose is cheaper than AMB's kit for the same thing. So who's the one gouging the poor hobbyist?
You want to go around chanting lamentations and wearing sackcloth and ashes because (SURPRISE!!) things change, knock your socks off. Me, I'm still pinching myself because I'm still a kid in a candy store only it's one that's orders of magnitude bigger and better than it was 50 years ago. I don't want a generic"SP Caboose", I want an SP C30-5 bay window caboose and I want it as it appeared in 1949, not as it appeared post-1955 with the orange ends and the Gothic lettering. . Kits are available and Micro-Scale's got the correct decals. 50 years ago, that kind of choice didn't exist. People are lot more savvy about prototype railroading today, even the free-lancers like Sheldon who, even if they model a totally fictional line, will want to do it in a manner that doesn't stretch plausibility to the breaking point and beyond. If this is detrimental to the hobby, then let's work harder to "kill" it.
Once again, Andre, you post a very wordy but essentially questionable series of comparisons in some sort of attempt to make a point. I would only ask that you actually take the time to research and evaluate the actual situations and conditions, rather than simply either pulling up odd items as supposed examples, or presenting half truths. Still, I'll make the gesture of responding to your post.
Locomotive prices of new models have steadily increased almost yearly since the early 2000's and at a rate far exceeding any supposed (but honestly in no way applicable) inflation figures. In addition, the types of steam locomotives being produced are almost all very large, top-of-the-line-expensive, types...the sort that "collectors" buy, but which are largely unsuitable for application to the average layout. Switchers and locos of more modest wheel arrangement would have all but disappeared from the marketplace in the last few years were it not for Bachmann. When a market shrinks, one of the obvious approaches to maintaining your cash flow is to aim your product at the remaining wealthy segment and steadily jack up your prices. And, yes, I do have some contacts within the industry and I can tell you that you've only begun to see where prices are going.
As to hobbyists today being so sophisticated about prototypes and so on, guess again. The vast majority of hobbyists seem to know mainly only what they are told is, or isn't, correct about a given model by a handful of Internet gurus. Just peruse the threads and posts that one finds on the more popular forums and this becomes dramatically obvious. I'd venture that there is little more individual prototype sophistication abroad today among hobbyists than there was a quarter century ago.
Concerning the supposed array of products you talk about available today as far exceeding that in the past, have you honestly tried to buy most of them? If you had, you'd find that, because of limited runs, most are currently no longer available at local venues, even just a few months following their issue date. On paper there's a broad selection, but not in a buying reality. Just try running the pages of the on-line Walthers and see what's actually in-stock. A huge percentage is either OOP, or arrival date unknown. In relation to this, you say that you are like a kid in a candy store with all that is being offered, yet by your own admission you've previously indicated that you are a non-modeler. So are you actually buying anything and if not, how does your statement make any sense?
As I've said before, I'm no doom and gloomer, I simply deal in realities, statistics and trends and what they indicate, but I do see most hobbyists as painfully ignorant of any accurate information regarding the current state of the hobby, as well as its past. There's also a strange and all-pervasive Pollyanna outlook on the situation among hobbyists that prevents most of them from accepting the true state of affairs when it's presented.
Incidentally, with regard to the electric razors, when Lawrence Cowen left Lionel in its death throes, he moved on to a position with a nationally known electric razor manufacturer. He indicated that there was little difference between the business of making and selling model trains and electric razors, with many of the parts even coming from the same outlets. Don't be so foolish as to think that at least some today's larger companies couldn't make some sort of similar transitions to another product line if things really started falling apart.
RedGrey62EDIT: rrebell, type "hobby dying" without quotes into the Search Community box, you'll see the threads The only way any of this becomes relevant to the original topic is if manufacturers are considering the shrinking or growing number of modelers in their strategic plan...... In the end, it really doesn't matter what the hobby is doing as long as there are people willing to take the chance on producing stuff for it.Ricky
The only way any of this becomes relevant to the original topic is if manufacturers are considering the shrinking or growing number of modelers in their strategic plan...... In the end, it really doesn't matter what the hobby is doing as long as there are people willing to take the chance on producing stuff for it.
Some important words of wisdom, since very few of us serve as strategic planners for any of the model railroading manufacturers.
And CNJ and Andre continue to talk past each other. Andre is talking production of cars and structures; CNJ is talking mass model locomotive production.
On the much lamented and discussed small steam locomotive front, I would suggest that a couple of trends have occurred. This is based on reading between the lines, observations of the market and three better-stocked LHS.
as always, my thoughts, your choices
Fred - I do largely agree with nearly all of what you posted, but I do see a number of significant caveats involved.
I can't speak to what goes on in N-gauge, but with regard to HO, while it's possibly true that in the past some hobbyists switched from steamers to diesels for better operating characteristics, in the last decade I've seen a decided back-dating shift in motivepower on the layouts of more serious hobbyists, making steamers and modeling the transition era more popular than ever.
Whether, or not, modelers today care about prototypical accuracy clearly does influence what people buy, what companies offer and at what price they sell items for. Demand, based a great deal on Internet peer pressure, for accurate models justifies increasingly limited runs and ever higher selling prices by the manufacturers.
While the "biggest and baddest" steamers were around until the demise of steam on some of the giant class 1 railroads, so were much smaller wheel arrangements on a vastly larger number of the smaller class 1 and 2 roads. I'd speculate that 90% of layouts today are far too small to realistically represent operation with huge steamers and actually cry out for more reasonably-sized locomotives, The huge steam offered today is directly aimed at the increasing percentage (relative to actual modelers) of non-modeling collectors in the hobby. How often do we see images of large rosters of locomotives - all sitting on just a table or plywood board - posted here? Remember the fella with the 23 Big Boys, or several folks with 100+ diesel rosters and essentially no layouts?
Before closing this post, I would like to also expand on your statement: The reduction in roster growth will also put renewed emphasis on prototypical accuracy - a repeat of the brass "industry". This is indeed exactly how the hobby's future is going to unfold, as I've pointed out a number of times previously. And prototypical accuracy will justify ever increasing prices, too. Especially recall just how the brass segment of the hobby played out over the years. Once a major part of the HO hobby, producing thousands of models, it has today almost ceased to exist for the mainstream of the hobby. What do posters think the fate of the HO hobby will be when plastic diesels reach $500 per and steamers $1,000 not all that many years from now? It's not a pretty picture.
The market will dictate where prices go. Bottom line is the manufacturers will push their margins as hard as they can. It's what people are willing to pay that dictates the price. In the end, the things that will keep the hobby alive are started trains sets and good ole Thomas. As long as people can get in the hobby like most here did, by getting that first train set as a kid, there will be model railroading. If prices for locomotives continue to rise, it will be because of inflation, but the relative price compared to other items will be the same IMO.
Springfield PA
CNJ831Before closing this post, I would like to also expand on your statement: The reduction in roster growth will also put renewed emphasis on prototypical accuracy - a repeat of the brass "industry". This is indeed exactly how the hobby's future is going to unfold, as I've pointed out a number of times previously. And prototypical accuracy will justify ever increasing prices, too. Especially recall just how the brass segment of the hobby played out over the years. Once a major part of the HO hobby, producing thousands of models, it has today almost ceased to exist for the mainstream of the hobby. What do posters think the fate of the HO hobby will be when plastic diesels reach $500 per and steamers $1,000 not all that many years from now? It's not a pretty picture. CNJ831
This is indeed exactly how the hobby's future is going to unfold, as I've pointed out a number of times previously. And prototypical accuracy will justify ever increasing prices, too. Especially recall just how the brass segment of the hobby played out over the years. Once a major part of the HO hobby, producing thousands of models, it has today almost ceased to exist for the mainstream of the hobby. What do posters think the fate of the HO hobby will be when plastic diesels reach $500 per and steamers $1,000 not all that many years from now? It's not a pretty picture.
CNJ
I don't think the end of the world will happen for the hobby. Yes, the rich choice of RTR locomotives will eventually disappear. In my world, it never has been there. Kids, other priorities, and not being high enough on the economic ladder always kept brass just out of my reach. I might buy one $300 locomotive every 2-3 years, and then it has to be exactly what I want for my layout to justify that money. A backdated Blackstone C-16 might get my lust going enough to act upon. As great as they are, new brass Shays at $700+ don't turn me on enough to ditch building my Keystone and MDC Shays.
The costs of scale 3 rail O chased me into just O27 and the more toy-like stuff until I tired of RTR and the kids were old enough to want different hobbies, too.
Now in HO and HOn3, the most I have paid for a locomotive was $150 for an HOn3 FED 2-6-0, with another $150 in remotoring, new drive, and detail parts. All the rest have been $125 or less, including the drive changes (Keystone Shays, Model Power Baldwins, MDC and Tyco loco kits). My roster is less than 10, and is likely to remain that way, with replacement on a 1 for 1basis when something better comes along and my wallet permits.
In the meantime, the proliferation of new accurate car kits for my era from small manufacturers has more than made up for the demise of the Roundhouse OT series kits. Yes, the new kits total $30 to $40 when trucks and couplers and paint are added - but how many do I need? If I had a large enough layout to need a roster of 100 cars, price per kit would be a concern. But so would time for the craftsman kits or scratch-building for a large roster.
And I think that's where the rising prices will have the most impact - the number of basement filling layouts that depend on RTR to get to operations with 3 years. In the 1950s, small HO layouts were much more common than they are today - and they were even featured in the photos in MR. Both prices and time to build everything prevented "everybody" from filling a room or basement. For many in the hobby since 1990, money has not been the limitation on layout size - time and space have been. In the future, money will again become a limiting factor for many more than it is today.
Finally, my cloudy crystal ball says there will be one more stab at mass production in another country besides China. I doubt it will be India; several have tried and failed there already. Each cycle of mass production, followed by rising prices, has been shorter and shorter. The Italian craftsmen lasted for several decades. The Japanese brass model worked well for 20 years. Korean brass and plastic was much shorter lived. Chinese plastic has been going strong for about 15 years, lasting longer because a prolonged US economic boom accommodated doubling of prices without much complaint. I give Chinese mass production perhaps another 5 years before production shifts to Viet Nam or gives up.
again my opinions are just that
fwrightFinally, my cloudy crystal ball says there will be one more stab at mass production in another country besides China. I doubt it will be India; several have tried and failed there already. Each cycle of mass production, followed by rising prices, has been shorter and shorter. The Italian craftsmen lasted for several decades. The Japanese brass model worked well for 20 years. Korean brass and plastic was much shorter lived. Chinese plastic has been going strong for about 15 years, lasting longer because a prolonged US economic boom accommodated doubling of prices without much complaint. I give Chinese mass production perhaps another 5 years before production shifts to Viet Nam or gives up.
It may very well be in Viet Nam---or---someplace in Africa. If it does give up it will just fold up; and go to razor blades----
I always wondered about why more manufacturing had not gone to Africa, I guess it has just not been stable enough. I know some takes place in Mexico but you would think it would be more. I think the last couple of posts really start to nail down where the hobby is going. Just from my perspective of buying, except for a few items, most of what I have purchased in the last 10 year has not been new as in not purchased from a LHS or Internet store but from people changing scales, thinning rosters, bad gifts, something they bought as part of something else, family problems. I have a pile of never out of the box (except by me) hobby stuff, Proto 2000 engines and cars and lots of other stuff of similar qualities. Once I finish my layout I will be thinning out my collection for sure, it is a large layout but how many billboard reefers do I need (have over 30 atlas).
blownout cylinder It may very well be in Viet Nam---or---someplace in Africa. If it does give up it will just fold up; and go to razor blades----
Locomotive building requires skilled labor at very low wages relative to the US. It is not easily learned or taught, as experiences with trying to set up locomotive production in India and Brazil have shown. Italy and Japan had a cultural history of fine hand work with jeweler like precision. But they also had a willingness to learn and do something beside traditional jewelry and crafts. Even then, initial locomotive production from Italy (remember Aristo-Craft?), Japan (very early brass), Korea, and even China was little better than trainset junk. Quality improved dramatically and fairly quickly; they had to to survive. For plastic and die-cast production, you also need skilled die cutters, again at low wages.
When MPC owned Lionel in the 1970s they made an attempt to move production to Mexico with unskilled labor. It was a dismal failure due to output quality that was too crummy to sell. After a little over a year, production was moved back to Michigan, where it stayed until the 1990s. Lionel was finally forced to move production to Korea and China because its competitors were eating Lionel's lunch.
I'm not familiar enough with Africa to state with certainty, but I don't believe the required infrastructure and culture exists there. South America and Latin America might be more successful, but I'm not sure the wage differential is great enough any more.
just anecdotal evidence to support my conclusions
How many versions of say, the Dash 9 were there? Basically 1.
SD60? essentially 3 Spartan, 3 window and 2 window.
The SD40-2 is pretty much the last loco that had significant variety with 3 reasonably distinct phases (ignoring angled blower duct) and multiple nose lengths. Yet even so, the Blue Box SD40-2 is a great compromise. Upgrading it with snoot or backdating the grills, or adding Q-fans and an exhaust silencer are all very doable upgrades.
Air Conditioners, GPS domes, specific Horns and horn locations. I don't see a need to make that part of the RTR market.
And to be fair, these models haven't gone away. There are still there and being mass produced, they're just RTR now with a higher price.