You obviously know nothing of wages in China, the lowest min. wage in China is 39cents an hour. Average monthly salary for a factory worker is $200+. In fact in some areas they actually have labor shortages because the factory workers who came from rural areas are returning there, very well off on their so called exploited wages.
And as for bowing, of course you don't have that problem with ready to run, because a mother in China gets paid $0.02 and hour to put it together for you and she rejects the ones that don't fit right.
What's your source for this assertion on this theoretical Chinese mother, or are you pulling that number out of thin air?
http://www.industryweek.com/articles/outsourcing_hedge_the_low-wage_wager_12125.aspx
http://tinyurl.com/2accprg
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/29/business/worldbusiness/29labor.html
http://www.theglobalguru.com/article.php?id=112
http://www.bicycleretailer.com/news/newsDetail/3978.html
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13511_3-9730762-22.html
Snippet from article linked right above: Government mandates also compel employers to kick in fringe benefits. Suntech, for instance, provides housing subsides, a free cafeteria and onsite medical.
http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1842145_1842144_1842142,00.html
They ain't saints and wages aren't at Western levels yet (neither is the cost of living), but to proclaim $.02/hr is go beyond the bounds of hyperbole and into the realm of what Col. Sherman T. Potter of the late 4077th MASH referred to as "horsehockey".
Andre
rrebell You obviously know nothing of wages in China, the lowest min. wage in China is 39cents an hour. Average monthly salary for a factory worker is $200+. In fact in some areas they actually have labor shortages because the factory workers who came from rural areas are returning there, very well off on their so called exploited wages.
Lack of knowledge has never been a deterrent to the expression of opinion in any venue.
Besides, it feels SOOOOOO much better to claim that Chinese mothers almost have to pay for the privilege of assembling model trains.
Come to think of it, if they did have to pay for the privilege of assembling model trains, they wouldn't be factory workers, they'd be model railroaders.
Just an example of an items labor cost in a factory, at the Dabon factory in China a man gets $1.45 to wrap for shipping and install a bicycle seat, a small part of a full bike!
YoHo1975I'm sorry, do you two think that disproving my Hyperbole (and it was clearly hyperbole) has any relevance at all to this discussion? The point is that it is so inexpensive to assemble the kits in China that there is no significant cost savings in making them kits.
No, actually, it wasn't clear you were being hyperbolic.
I have no fundamental disagreement that the manufacturing cost difference between kits and RTR is relatively insignificant. Somebody's got to be paid to to make sure that the kits have the right parts in the right number in the right box or to assemble said parts into a unit. What I have is a major disagreement (with HO types primarily) that RTR (warning, hyperbole coming) is the source of all evil, is killing the hobby and is part of a vast conspiracy to make the manufacturers so filthy rich that they can afford a fleet of Gulfstream V's.
As so many of those in HO forget, N scale has been RTR from the get go. If it's OK for N, why not for other scales? It doesn't stop people from doing things like this: http://www.trainboard.com/grapevine/showthread.php?t=118362 . ( hope the pics show up as some sites require you to be signed in) or this: http://tinyurl.com/2965acs or this: http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showgallery.php/cat/1204
Our very own Dave Vollmer hasn't let the lack of loco kits prevent him from doing work like this: http://www.thevollmerfamily.com/Pennsy/Roster/H10.jpg and this http://www.thevollmerfamily.com/Pennsy/Roster/M1.jpg
OK, I cheated and showed pics of locomotives, not cars. Same prinicipal applies.
Edit note to the power's that installed word nanny software H O e r 's is not a bad word,
Well, maybe it is to rabid N scalers.
'
andrechapelon YoHo1975I'm sorry, do you two think that disproving my Hyperbole (and it was clearly hyperbole) has any relevance at all to this discussion? The point is that it is so inexpensive to assemble the kits in China that there is no significant cost savings in making them kits. No, actually, it wasn't clear you were being hyperbolic. I have no fundamental disagreement that the manufacturing cost difference between kits and RTR is relatively insignificant. Somebody's got to be paid to to make sure that the kits have the right parts in the right number in the right box or to assemble said parts into a unit. What I have is a major disagreement (with HO types primarily) that RTR (warning, hyperbole coming) is the source of all evil, is killing the hobby and is part of a vast conspiracy to make the manufacturers so filthy rich that they can afford a fleet of Gulfstream V's.
My aren't we being picular today--lol!
But really the issue may not be the vast conspiracy to deprive a whole segment of a market from getting its needs met. It may be that there is no imagination on the side of some mfg's to look into more cost effective ways of tool and die making for those molds---
My primary crab was more involved in getting ppl into thinking that one can spin off some of this stuff and continue making the dang kits for the poor H O scale guys---who are still, after all, part of a market. At least that was what I thought they were
andrechapelon Edit note to the power's that installed word nanny software H O e r 's is not a bad word, Well, maybe it is to rabid N scalers.
Hey! Leave us N scalers out of this----
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
BRAKIE BTW..There are several newly tooled cars in the RTR line and some of those older cars are heavly upgraded..
Very true, but there are also MANY that are EXACTLY the same except for the metal wheel sets and better paint jobs.
It truely is a item by item situation.
Sheldon
How would they do that, Barry? If you're re-tooling an item because your old tooling is wearing out, what good is worn out tooling to some upstart new manufacturer? And why invest in obsolete tooling if the tooling is still physically adequate but not up tp current standards? Suppose GM had the original tooling in good shape for making 1957 Chevies? Who would be dumb enough to buy that tooling and manufacture a '57 Chevy in 2010, even as a kit?
. The issue's never been one about kits vs. RTR anyway. It's been about money. The first Athearn kit I ever bought was a Lackawanna box car I purchased in 1957/ Assuming the identical car was available today completely unchanged from the 1957 version and it was priced consistent with inflation, it would retail for $10 (it was $1.29 in '57). Change the horn hooks to McHenry's and the wheels to metal and you're probably looking at $12. If Athearn tried to retail that kit at $12, there'd still be the unholy wailing and gnashing of teeth.
People want kits? Here's a link to Intermountain's HO kit page. http://www.imrcmodels.com/ho/hokit.htm Notice the prices? Most of these are undecs. Paint and decals will up the price. And here's the link to Intermountain's N scale kit page. http://www.imrcmodels.com/n/nkit.htm It's not about kits. It's about the lust people just refuse to be honest about, the lust for cheap trains..
BTW, is anyone willing to pay $40 for that Centralia Shops undec Santa Fe caboose kit when Athearn will sell you a painted and lettered RTR version for less than half the price? The Athearn doesn't have as much detail, but even if it's not cheap, it is cheaper.
Like I said, it ain't about kits, it's about cheap.
andrechapelonHow would they do that, Barry? If you're re-tooling an item because your old tooling is wearing out, what good is worn out tooling to some upstart new manufacturer? And why invest in obsolete tooling if the tooling is still physically adequate but not up tp current standards? Suppose GM had the original tooling in good shape for making 1957 Chevies? Who would be dumb enough to buy that tooling and manufacture a '57 Chevy in 2010, even as a kit?
You'd be surprised at that--check out the sites here--
www.carsinc.com
www.dynacornclassicbodies.com
www.experi-metal.com
www.goodmarkindustries.com
www.yearone.com
These guys did their own tooling and such from older dies and such as well---
Shows what can be done nowadays---without necessarily busting the bank---
In my heart of hearts I will always buy American if I can, call it what you will but when you've had a job pulled out from under you along with 300 of your fellow coworkers because some bean counter said it was more cost effective to the bottom line to move the entire operation over to India the words foreign made tend to leave a bad taste in your mouth. That being said in true reality our country has gone so far to one side it's completely disgusting to see just about everything you pick up made in China or some place else. Heck even a lot of the food sold in grocery stores comes form countries other then the US. If you don't believe me take a trip with your wife to the super market the next time she goes shopping and check out the produce isle.
You can say what you want but good manufactured in China are generally substandard and inferior take for example in our hobby Bachmann trains. Yes some of you have had good if not great luck with them but when a company has a policy that if you send it back because of a problem they almost inevitably send you a new one. What does that say about pride in workmanship and quality control. What ever happen to repair instead of replace. Unfortunately back in the real world if we want any decent amount of rolling stock, locomotives, structure kits etc. on our layout we really aren't left with much of a choice but to buy good manufactured in any country other then the US. On the flip side of the coin there aren't too many of us who don't covet brass locomotives. I didn't say own or could afford to own but lets all be honest we're like Pavlov's dogs when it comes to brass show us one and we instantly start to drool. Where are the bulk of them made, well the older more coveted higher quality models are/were made in Japan and most of the newer still relatively high price models are made in Korea. I don't believe there are too many of us who wouldn't want any of them regardless of where they are made. I have a Trix Big boy a nice foreign made locomotive but it still took my American dollars to buy it and it is a high quality piece worth the prices they fetch.
Thats the whole thing in a nutshell is that $25-$35 ready to run car regardless of where it's made worth it, only you can answer that. I visited a rather large layout where the owner had nothing but top quality everything. All NCE radio throttle must have been 10 or12 sitting in pockets around the layout, All high quality rolling stock I would say 90% of the freight cars were brass and all of the passenger equipment was brass and so on and so on. This guy had more tied up in his layout then my house cost.......lol but he could afford it so it's all relative.
Me I shop on the bargain or sale table, walk till my feet feel like they are going to bust out of my shoes at train shows just to find "a deal" because I can't afford to pay the prices that some of these manufacturers are asking no matter how well it's made or how detailed it is etc. So what if I got a great deal on some ready to run rolling stock when I can't afford to put food on the table or gas in my truck. It's all where your priority's are.
That's all well and good, Barry, but this is rather specialized stuff. Athearn BB relative to the HO market was "mass" (relatively) produced stuff. If Model Power brought out the old Mantua line as kits instead of or in additiont to RTR, how many people do you think would be buying the kits? For that matter, except as kitbash fodder, who wants a Mantua Pacific except as kitbash fodder (which raises the cost ante considerably by the time you're done)..
In any case, you can still get Silver Streak kits from Ye Olde Huff and Puff and Suydam kits are available from Alpine. A Silver Streak caboose that cost you $3.25 40-50 years ago, however, will cost you $26 today. Just because it's old tooling (updated or otherwise) doesn't guarantee low price. In any case, the AMB kit based on the same prototype (SP C30-1) that costs a lot more is a better choice because it's far more accurate.
Don't get me wrong,. I'm not against kits, just against regarding the past with rose colored glasses.
Or would that be blinders.?
I have to agree with Andre, the whole kit thing is a red herring. If you want to buy kits, they are still available in HO. Not from big names like Atlas, Athearn, and Bowser, but from plenty of small manufacturers. Yes, most of these are not plastic - they are resin and wood. Why? Because resin or wood kits don't involve 5 or 6 figures up front for tooling. And resin or wood is suitable for small batch production - which is all the manufacturer is likely to sell. My bet is that very few of the small manufacturers of car kits sell more than 100 of a given kit in a year - that's how small the kit market really is.
And these small manufacturers don't advertise much in Model Railroader. Why? Because MR believes in encouraging new entrants (and new customers for the big advertisers) to the hobby through easy-to-use RTR.
For the more advanced model railroader, the kits are available. And the kits are easier to modify than plastic RTR. But they still don't sell in large numbers.
Back to the money issue. I guess I'm one of the stupid ones. I have paid $35-$40 for a couple of Micro-Trains and Blackstone HOn3 plastic RTR cars. I did it for the convenience of having something for my HOn3 locomotives to pull while I was building some car kits or laying some track. That has been my approach to the hobby. Buy just enough manufactured track, 1 RTR locomotive, and a few cars (in both HO and HOn3) so that I can set up a basic oval with a spur or two while I am building the dream layout and roster.
Like most of you, I lust after brass or premium plastic locomotives, but have a hard time with the cost. But now I am reconciled to saving for that one special locomotive that exactly matches my layout's needs. That's the only way I can justify that kind of money - to buy just one that will see heavy use. I still can't see paying $300+ for a locomotive isn't what I really, really want. And since it's almost always just me, buying more than one premium locomotive doesn't make sense.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
....modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it's always 1900....
I would point out that the difference between what is available in kits now versus what MDC and Athearn provided is the difference between a craftsman kit and a Shake the box kit. What's people are generally fussing about is the lack of Shake the box kits. A very different beast.
Shake the box kits represented a level of value that is at least perceived to have left the hobby. Personally, I think that's more true in Locos than freight cars, but still. I don't think it's the fact that they were kits, (well there was some pleasure in putting them together) but that they were a huge bang for the buck.
Also as to not purchasing Bachmann. Um, Bachmann has been owned by Kader since the 1980s and as of today 2010. Kader is the contract manufacturer for most if not all the model makers out there. So really, every single car you buy no matter what it says on the box is made by the same company.
YoHo1975I would point out that the difference between what is available in kits now versus what MDC and Athearn provided is the difference between a craftsman kit and a Shake the box kit. What's people are generally fussing about is the lack of Shake the box kits. A very different beast.
What differences are we really looking at between Athearn and MDC and Mantua kits on one hand, and Tichy and Westerfield and Labelle kits on the other hand?
Correct. So are the 99 cent/car train set break-ups at AHC. Interesting that both the shake the box old stock kits and the train set break-ups don't sell at the LHS or at train shows unless it's a popular road name. The unwanted road names sit on the shelves at my LHS, and I see the same boxes at train show after train show. Meanwhile, the more popular road names get snapped up at a premium on eBay.
On my eBay auctions for the past several years of new-in-the box Athearn BB and Roundhouse car kits, road names like PRR and NYC and Conrail brought at least twice as high a final price as the Genesee & Wyoming. Didn't matter whether there actual prototypes for the models or not. For the more obscure road names, I had to add metal trucks and Kadee couplers just to attract bids starting at $1.99.
The "bottom-feeding" portion of the hobby that buys BB and similar is a lot more picky than most posters seem to think. As one of them, I know. If you have a small hobby budget, it doesn't make sense to buy a generic, shake-the-box car kit that you have to strip and repaint as well as replace trucks and couplers to make usable on your layout. Not when the same generic kit is available prepainted in a road name you want with a little searching.
With decals and decal information harder to come by than in the past, and this group being the least likely to own an airbrush, avoiding schemes and road names that don't fit comes naturally.
Fascinating how we keep rehashing the same old topics in this thread.
My observations are:
Most people don't want kits they want RTR. They only buy kits because that's all that's available or they are on a very tight budget.
If you like to build models, there are plenty of parts available. You can "make" your own kit.
There's plenty of building required to get a layout up and going even if you use a lot of RTR. If you want a large layout lots of RTR is mandatory if you want it running in a reasonable amount of time.
How much you pay for things is based on your cash available and your desire for the item.
Enjoy
Paul
Fred,You're basicaly saying the same thing Athearn did-the BB kits was not up to today's standards.I agree..However,they took these kits dress them up,addded metal wheels and the darn things sell.Of course some was retooled.
What I don't understand is the influx of shortline names from Athearn and Atlas/Trainman.
As far as shake the box kits I wonder why Accurail doesn't fell that need since they are readily available?
Again you are correct even us good enoughers wouldn't buy cars that doesn't fill our needs..
BTW..One didn't have to be a "serious" modeler to switch out the X2F for KDs.That was a given and at one time the BB and MDC/Roundhouse kits was the modeler's top choice.Today these modelers-including the so called "serious" modeler are still buying 'em...
As I mention ExactRail has 3 production class of cars that sell at 3 different price levels so,it appears they are trying to keep their cars affordable for everybody.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
IRONROOSTERMost people don't want kits they want RTR. They only buy kits because that's all that's available or they are on a very tight budget.
And, if you are on a tight budget, any company that discontinues an affordable kit will take that modeller out of the market. Lets face it. Anyone who is on that tight budget will have to buy from resellers at trainshows---if the prices don't go sky rocketing because of scarcity of that model. A good thing Accurail is still around---as is Exactrail----
IRONROOSTERHow much you pay for things is based on your cash available and your desire for the item
That is, IF the dang thing even is around-----
IRONROOSTER Fascinating how we keep rehashing the same old topics in this thread. My observations are: Most people don't want kits they want RTR. They only buy kits because that's all that's available or they are on a very tight budget.
Paul, on just what "observations" do you base your conclusion? Reviewing the replies made by posters to this thread, those actually responding with a clear preference and not just roundy-round arguments, turns out by my count to be 16 in favor of kits, as opposed to 5 favoring RTR.
CNJ831
blownout cylinder It may be that there is no imagination on the side of some mfg's to look into more cost effective ways of tool and die making for those molds...
It may be that there is no imagination on the side of some mfg's to look into more cost effective ways of tool and die making for those molds...
More cost effective ways of tool and die making for those molds? In the U.S.? You gotta be kidding me.
Machinists and others with the skills and talent to produce such accurate scale models as most people want to buy are not cheap in the U.S. There is NO "cost effective" way to do the tool and die making in the U.S. If there were, trust me, companies like Bowser would still be doing it here. They did for a long, long time, and they did reach out across the U.S. to folks who did that kind of work.
It is actually way cheaper to send the information package including detailed photographs and drawings to China. They then send you a pilot model--that's pretty darn good.
No dealing with eccentric but talented Americans who are hard to pin down to a deadline, etc. No hassles.
John
UP 4-12-2Machinists and others with the skills and talent to produce such accurate scale models as most people want to buy are not cheap in the U.S. There is NO "cost effective" way to do the tool and die making in the U.S. If there were, trust me, companies like Bowser would still be doing it here. They did for a long, long time, and they did reach out across the U.S. to folks who did that kind of work.
Maybe we should then be like China and work for pennies on the dollar then
Look. It ain't rocket science when you go and have someone who is more interested in doing this than someone who is more into feeding their family. There has to be another reason why the guy would want to do this stuff other than making the $$$$$ all the time. We have created a $$$$ oriented culture here that is slowly strangling your country----
The aftermarket for the auto sector for example---look at the body panels that are being made---are they making them in China? No. Yet we seem to think that the ONLY way thing can be made is in China---your number 1 sector is still manufacturing guys---
CNJ831 IRONROOSTER Fascinating how we keep rehashing the same old topics in this thread. My observations are: Most people don't want kits they want RTR. They only buy kits because that's all that's available or they are on a very tight budget. Paul, on just what "observations" do you base your conclusion? Reviewing the replies made by posters to this thread, those actually responding with a clear preference and not just roundy-round arguments, turns out by my count to be 16 in favor of kits, as opposed to 5 favoring RTR. CNJ831
John,That may well be true but,many modelers fail to realize the generic BB car kit era(meaning all shake the box generic car kits) has ended..Take a closer look at Athearn and the way they are getting more road specific in locomotive details and finer car details..The upcoming RTC 20,900 Acid tank car will be a fine model of a specific freight car and not just another generic tank car lettered UTLX.
The hobby has grownup over the past few years and in left the BB kit era behind..A lot of modelers is resenting this fact..Today's hobby is more demanding for correctly done models instead of those old generic models that once prevailed..
Not so long ago I resisted this move and was slow to realized the hobby has changed leaving me choking in the dust.Sure,they are still unknown thousands of average Joe modelers that has either embrace this new era or choose to remain behind pinning for the "good old days".
CAUTION: Use of Hyperbole very extensive in this post---used to emphasize a point---
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK---time for a different tack--what about AFFORDABILITY? Do we even think of this now?
HELLO!!
What do you think the kid who is not wealthy going to do huh? He's going to stay out of the hobby!
So much for growing a market------
How about the ones who do want to build kits---regardless of how out of date/time they be? They can get other kits yes but Athearns were in point of fact AFFORDABLE!!
Huh---obviously we are more interested in what is convenient----grumble growl mumble snort
Without the intention to start a flame war - we have to remember, that the only reason, why a company is moving their production to China is to reap extra $$$ and improve the bottom line, and not necessarily to provide good products at an affordable price. Yes, we are all racing for bargains, to get the best value for our money. There is nothing wrong on that, unless it starts to kill an economy. For an economy to be able to survive, we need to have a balanced mix of the agricultural sector (feeding us), industrial production (creating marketable values) and the service sector (supporting the first two). Globalization has led to cannibalization of the production sector in most western countries, effecting, that our money is not backed by the necessary amount of values, making it fodder for speculation and inflation. We have been there before...
Globalization is not a one-way street. If moving the production to China means providing them with income they can use to buy in the US, or Germany - any where in the western world, then this will provide the necessary balance. I am afraid, that this is currently not the situation.
Back to the original question. It is my feeling, that the low price situation will end sooner than we expect it to happen. The Chinese are learning fast and the RMB will appreciate quite a lot vs. the USD and the EUR in the long run. We have been there before, when Japan took over the camera market, the car market and the home electronics market. Given the cost of shipping and quality control (quality is still an issue, and will remain so for a long time), there are some industries, which are now looking to in-sourcing strategies.
Would I pay a premium for domestic products? Yes, within the means I can afford. I see this as an investment into the nation I am a member of - be it for R-T-R or kits, that is not an issue
BRAKIETake a closer look at Athearn and the way they are getting more road specific in locomotive details and finer car details..The upcoming RTC 20,900 Acid tank car will be a fine model of a specific freight car and not just another generic tank car lettered UTLX.
The price of all these new RTR kits seems to be getting out of hand, and I think that's a big turnoff for a lot of people who grew up on the BlueBox kits, myself included. But then the cost is relative.
I don't know what the cost of an undec generic tank car would be if it were available today. Let's say $10. A set of Microscale decals is $6.50. A bottle of paint is what, another $4.50? So we're up to $21 already. Then there's the time and money involved with searching for and obtaining any of the details parts you'd need to get the model to approach what the RTR UTLX looks like. And you know what? Once it's all completed, the RTR Athearn car will probably still be better looking.
blownout cylinder CAUTION: Use of Hyperbole very extensive in this post---used to emphasize a point--- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OK---time for a different tack--what about AFFORDABILITY? Do we even think of this now? HELLO!! What do you think the kid who is not wealthy going to do huh? He's going to stay out of the hobby! So much for growing a market------ How about the ones who do want to build kits---regardless of how out of date/time they be? They can get other kits yes but Athearns were in point of fact AFFORDABLE!! Huh---obviously we are more interested in what is convenient----grumble growl mumble snort
Barry,This is from my observation and its a scary thought.
My oldest grandson is a modeler and currently in the Air Force.Every month he ships models home for safe keeping..There isn't a generic car kit among the stuff he buys...
Now where did he get these high modeling standards? Not from good enough modeler Grandpa..
I fully believe his generation of modelers will demand cars and locomotives that is highly detail and detailed for a specific road...
What is affordable?
Good question..How about this? Is it possible the future modelers will have less locomotives and cars because they want the RTR highly detailed cars and locomotives?
The popularity growth of ISLs isn't just a anomoly but,a clue of where this hobby could be heading...
BRAKIE John,That may well be true but,many modelers fail to realize the generic BB car kit era(meaning all shake the box generic car kits) has ended..Take a closer look at Athearn and the way they are getting more road specific in locomotive details and finer car details..The upcoming RTC 20,900 Acid tank car will be a fine model of a specific freight car and not just another generic tank car lettered UTLX. The hobby has grownup over the past few years and in left the BB kit era behind..A lot of modelers is resenting this fact..Today's hobby is more demanding for correctly done models instead of those old generic models that once prevailed..
Quite honestly, Larry, I see the hobby as having evolved away from actual model railroading in the direction of simply collecting and this whole high-priced, accuracy, issue is a direct reflection of that. That's what diverted brass from its earliest years of being a source of motive power and rollingstock of higher detail for layout use to largely a collectibles sub-culture, which was more-or-less (and has remained so) outside of the real model railroading hobby ever since.
If the level of quality layout modeling had advanced dramatically in recent years, then I could see a real need for ultra-accurate RTR models, at the higher prices, to compliment the situation and to allow the hobbyist additional time to even further improve his layout overall. That was one of the original claims made by the RTR folks of what it would do. However, nothing of the sort is apparent and to judge from what one sees in the photo galleries of various forums, the "average" modeler's layout is of no substantially better quality today than a decade or two ago...long before the RTR take-over.
The true rivet counters, who indeed demand high accuracy, have always been a minute segment of the hobby. To this day, the typical hobbyist is a freelancer who pretty much runs what he likes, rather than matching his layout to some highly specific time, place and prototype equipment roster. To be very frank, I'd venture that 75% of hobbyists today wouldn't have any idea of the true accuracy of any given high-end HO model in their possession without depending on someone else on the Internet, or in the pages of MR, telling them so! That being the case, just what is the motivation for 100% accuracy here?
I'm afraid that the hobby has become driven by forces very different from what prevailed prior to the turn of the century, becoming increasing about simply acquiring, while at the same time less and less about good modeling and craftsmanship.
Wow, a lot of post since yesterday! To answer one of the questions on Bachmann as to why the ship new rather than repair. Loco comes in and clerk ships out new one, takes about 5 min. maybe. Loco comes in clerk logs it and sends it over to repair person, by the time it makes it way out maybe an hour has passed. So even at $10.00 an hour (I'm sure a repair person would get more) way one cost .83 cents, way two cost $10.00 or around $9.00 more. Actual cost of item to manufacture including shipping $3.00 to $12.00. Chance of problem with repair 20%, chance of problem with new 5%. It just ends up cheaper to send new! What I want is access to their junk pile!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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John,I'm not to sure about that..One thing I have notice is how layouts has improved and some looks far better then they did 10 years ago.Its become obvious that today's modeler can do museum work by using Woodland Scenic material...All my dad had was screen wire,plaster,green paint,twigs and lichen.
Hobby grewup plain and simple and today's modeler is wanting the best and no longer interest in generic..Oddly,I seen this coming years ago and mention it several times and in short many thought that Larry finally lost it.
What give me this hint of things to come? That lowly LL P2K BL2..Our pleas have been heard.
As so many others have said, I buy what fits a need. If it's something I want and it cost $XX, I will save up and get it. It doesn't matter if it's RTR or a kit and it doesn't matter where it's made.
A few year's back, people were bemoaning the cost of Kadee RTR cars, trying to apply the made in the USA equated to the "unusually" high price. Now it seems the most RTR offerings are in the same price range. at least those with the same level of detail.
I too cut my teeth on Athearn BB and MDC/Roundhouse kits (I remember the pain of having to paint the floors!). The big problem I saw was the same kits on the shelves, I just didn't need another DD automobile car from the 40s-50s lettered for ATSF. Now does that mean they won't sell, not sure. As my modeling improved and as I refined what I model, I changed to more accurate models, in many cases, it coincided with the change to RTR hobby-wide. The manufacturers are simply following where the money is. As far as them reading this forum and making a decision to lower prices because folks have found bargains, not going to happen. If you got a bargain, I'm happy for you, but that was at the expense of the retailer, not the manufacturer (in most cases).
Furthermore, I have no problems with painting and decalling my own stuff. I have several locos and cars that are waiting for final details and will go in the paint shop. But I won't expend the time and money to convert a BB to the standard I'm looking for today, there are other aspects of the hobby I enjoy and want to devote time to instead.
The other thing I think many forget, is that we collect over our lifetime. I have somewhere around 300 pieces of rolling stock (in boxes until layout early next year), I didn't buy them all at once. The ones I bought as a kid, most under 5 dollars, are what I could afford and I still only bought a few each year. If I average out those 300 over how long I've been in the hobby, it equates to about 10 a year. Then if you take into consideration some were multipacks and passenger trains, there were some years that virtually nothing was bought.
Bottom line is I have no qualms with the cost, it is a hobby after all and not on the bottom rung of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs pyramid. We have more selection of what we see, have seen or have prototype pictures of than ever before and my only real gripe is that I only have so much room!
Sorry if it was disjointed but wanted to address many of the posts I read.
Ricky