I've heard alot of complaints from modelers including myself about a the cost of and or the fact that most of what we buy is made in China. So I've thougt of a few questions, a survey if you will.
Let's say we pay on average about $25 to $35 for an RTR freight car with a high level of detail that is produced largely China.
Question 1 Would you pay more for the same car same level of detail produced entirely in the US? If so how much more?
Question 2 Would you still pay the same $25 to $35 for the same car produced in the US but with less detail. how much less detail I'm not really sure.
I don't work for a manufacturer. I'm just another model railroader but these questions have always bothered me. Like alot of you guys I'm sure, if at all possible I would like to have American made products but how much more does it really cost to produce the products as we've become acustomed to here instead of China, and are we either willing to more or maybe accept less in detail to keep the cost in line with what we currently pay. I would like to here your thoughts.
Dan Metzger
How 'bout option #3: Would you be willing to pay less for a highly detailed kit made in the US?
Absolutely! - Bring on the kits!
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tstageHow 'bout option #3: Would you be willing to pay less for a highly detailed kit made in the US?Absolutely! - Bring on the kits!
I'll second that.
Given that I'm in HOn3, I have the option of buying highly-detailed, Chinese-made rolling stock or (up to 50%) less for a highly-detailed kit made in China. However, I still think that a US-made version of the same kits would cost as much as the Chinese-made RTR. The factors that make China such a cheap manufacturing area (labour costs, etc.) are probably the same factors that make American-made more expensive.
The Location: Forests of the Pacific Northwest, OregonThe Year: 1948The Scale: On30The Blog: http://bvlcorr.tumblr.com
You folks in the US are really lucky guys, as the US based importers seem to pass on the cost benefit out of a production in China into the market. This is not the case in Germany, where Chinese made locos cost to the tune of up to $ 1,000 - I don´t talk brass or hybrids!
How much would I pay? Not more than I can afford - and I can afford only very little. As most of the production has already been transferred to China, I don´t think we have the option to source locally, at whatever price.
Thanks to my choice of prototype and modeling scale, I have a totally different take on your questions:
dm9538 Let's say we pay on average about $25 to $35 for an RTR freight car with a high level of detail that is produced largely China.
There will be snowball fights in Hades before any Chinese manufacturer produces ANYTHING for my prototype!
J. Lucifer Satan will buy a rotary snowplow before any American manufacturer produces ANYTHING for my prototype!
Having had the choice (40+ years ago) of buying some very nice RTR cars at price 4X, some very nice kits at price 2.5X and some little tin boxes (of approximately correct general dimensions and overall appearance) on wheels at price X, I bought the little tin boxes on wheels. I was looking for pieces for a game called, 'operation.' Museum quality modeling was NOT (and still is not) essential to the game.
Then and now, the only source of Japanese prototype rolling stock in 1:80 scale (other than my workbench) is Japan. Prices, quite reasonable when one US dollar could be exchanged for 360 yen, are now ten times as great in Yen, and 40 times as great in US currency! $25 - 35 dollars won't buy a decent pair of trucks for an eight-wheeled car, never mind the car itself. If some catastrophe ever causes me to start over, I'll be scratchbuilding in On762. Even with a far larger model railroading budget than I enjoyed in the '60s, there's no way I could replace my present roster at current prices.
Note that this is not a complaint. I already own enough locomotives, passenger cars (powered and unpowered) and freight cars to accurately simulate my prototype's rather frenetic September '64 operating scheme. These days my major expense is buying steel studs for benchwork - and I may have enough on hand to just about complete my intended construction.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
The cost differences between US and China production are more complex than just labor, US taxes, regulations, insurances, etc, all work together with labor costs to cause the current situation.
Personally, I do not make any of my buying choices, in this hobby or for anything else, based on where something is made.
Is it what I need or want?
Is the quality level high enough?
Can I afford it?
Is it a reasonable value?
Answer all those questions yes and I am likely to buy it.
So for me, a US manufacturer would simply need to make something I want, likely not already made by some other manufacturer, and sell it at a reasonable price.
If a Big Boy made in China is $500 and a Big Boy made here is $1,000, it makes no difference to me since I have no use for a Big Boy.
I buy lots of the various kits on the market, most of which are still made here. It does not matter that they cost more than some China made RTR cars.
But I do buy some China made RTR stuff as well. What I don't do is this - I don't generally pay more than about $20, $25 max, for any piece of freight rolling stock, kit or RTR, US or China made.
I don't buy $40 to $70 RTR passenger cars.
I don't generally spend more than about $100 for a diesel loco, or a max of about $300 for a steam loco.
I don't use sound or DCC.
If a US production manufacturer can make suitable products in those price ranges, I will take a look - as I already do,
Sheldon
dm9538 Let's say we pay on average about $25 to $35 for an RTR freight car with a high level of detail that is produced largely China. Question 1 Would you pay more for the same car same level of detail produced entirely in the US? If so how much more?
Absolutely not. As far as I am concerned, $25-$35 rolling stock is overpriced now, considering how and where these items are currently being made. The move of production to China was supposely done to save on costs, but the consumers' price never was reduced and subsequently prices have increased dramatically.
In addition, I have no intererst in "ultra" detailed cars when much of the detail is not apparent anyway. As a protolancer, I modify/repaint most of my equipment, so coming RTR is an outright disadvantage to me from the start. Bring back the kits and then I'll likely buy.
Am I willing to pay those prices for an American-made Blue Box Athearn car now? No...that would be a scam in itself. I'd much rather buy American, but I don't accept the premise that in just the last ten years manufacturers costs have doubled, or even tripled, after witnessing that hobby item pricing didn't do that over the previous 40 years.
CNJ831
First of all, I would not pay $25 for any RTR freight car. If that is what I had to pay, wether made in China or the US, I probablly would not be in the hobby as I couldn't afford it; or I would buy only used rolling stock on Ebay or at train shows. I have never paid more than $15 for a brand new RTR freight car and that was one that had been marked 50% off. I AM RETIRED AND DON'T HAVE TONS OF $$$ TO SPEND ON MY RR HOBBY.
I have to agree that I would prefer to have US made products but we can't compete with slave labor in China, no matter what the detail level.
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
dm9538Question 1 Would you pay more for the same car same level of detail produced entirely in the US? If so how much more? Question 2 Would you still pay the same $25 to $35 for the same car produced in the US but with less detail. how much less detail I'm not really sure.
1. Nope. Most of the detail on RTR cars breaks of upon removal from the box.
2. Nope. I won't go for any RTR frieght car that is over $16 (that being what I paid for some IM 60' boxcars). I almost entirely go for kits, that way I know they are put together right.
tstage How 'bout option #3: Would you be willing to pay less for a highly detailed kit made in the US? Absolutely! - Bring on the kits! Tom
Thirded (or Fourthed?)
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.
farrellaa First of all, I would not pay $25 for any RTR freight car. If that is what I had to pay, wether made in China or the US, I probablly would not be in the hobby as I couldn't afford it; or I would buy only used rolling stock on Ebay or at train shows. I have never paid more than $15 for a brand new RTR freight car and that was one that had been marked 50% off. I AM RETIRED AND DON'T HAVE TONS OF $$$ TO SPEND ON MY RR HOBBY. I have to agree that I would prefer to have US made products but we can't compete with slave labor in China, no matter what the detail level.
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No..IMHO while today's cars are the best ever made I fully believe they are overpriced..After all how many cars can you get out of a ton of raw material? Of course that is a classified answer known only to the manufacturers..I find today's cars are fragile to the touch..I have had iddy biddy details to fall offf into my hands or into never/never land.
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No and the same cost reason apply..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
dm9538Let's say we pay on average about $25 to $35 for an RTR freight car
Heavens, no. I'm not willing to pay that for a freight car, period. My hobby dollars are too hard to come by. For that kind of money, I'll go find a nice-running Atlas Yellow Box locomotive.
I rely heavily, almost entirely, on the secondhand market for my freight kits (again, RTR just costs too much). I'd wager that three-quarters of my freight cars were acquired for not more than $5 each, including my Accurail and Branchline stuff. If you're paitient and willing to go without for a time while looking, there are good deals out there to be had.
Jim
"I am lapidary but not eristic when I use big words." - William F. Buckley
I haven't been sleeping. I'm afraid I'll dream I'm in a coma and then wake up unconscious. -Stephen Wright
Just take a look at this:
Model #37054
Our Price: $816.08Sale Price: $769.95
... and this:
Model #47009
Our Price: $43.68
This represents pretty much the price level we have to live with here in Germany. Made in Germany - no way!
Edit:
I should add, that Marklin/Trix have outsourced their production to some cheap labor countries, including China, as well. Brawa´s pricing policy is even worse. Compared to those prices, buying a BLI Paragon 2 SP cab Forward for $ 599,99 appears to be a bargain!
Don't feel bad about those european train prices, Ulrich, the American manufacturers will most definitely be catching up with them in just the next few years, I promise you!
Ulrich,
Although I am thankful to have bought my two Trix NYC 2-8-2 Mikes for substantially less than MSRP ($220 & $250, to be exact), I have to say that - as well as they look and run - I'd be willing to make an exception and pay close to full price for them. They are a sweet steamer and the pride of my fleet.
I feel for you with those prices though.
From what I understand in talking with others. The reason Athearn shut down the blue box line was because California made it impossible for them to produce it profitably and once they began producing overseas, the cost to fully assemble the model versus making the kit was such that it made absolutely no sense for them to continue to make shake the box kits.
The problem with making these is the cost of the molds. There is no doubt in my mind that with proper incentive, manufacturers could move jobs back to the US and produce models of comparative value and price, but it would require some changes in laws that simply aren't going to happen...not for the model train industry.
No way I pay 25-35 for freight
I'll stick with Accurail Kit 40 fters at $12
51% share holder in the ME&O ( Wife owns the other 49% )
ME&O
YoHo1975From what I understand in talking with others. The reason Athearn shut down the blue box line was because California made it impossible for them to produce it profitably and once they began producing overseas-snip
Also according to Athearn it was the lack of BB sales that doomed these kits.
Today's market shifted to RTR and I fear the kit era will end..
Just a clairifcation, I agree that current prices are on the high side. I used the $25 to $35 figure because that seems to be the price range for the MSRP for the stuff being released right now. I also realize kits are and would be cheaper but it seems RTR is where the hobby is at and where it will probably stay. I guess the point of my questions is are we willing to pay more or accept less to buy American made products. I'm honestly not sure how I feel just wondering what others think. I guess I'd like it both ways RTR at it's current prices and level of detail and made in the US.
I'm a former Bowser employee. Bowser fought a good fight to keep actual manufacturing in the U.S. as long as possible (actually too long--it was costing them). They and many others fought a good fight, and excepting Kadee's outstanding product line, the game is over. The ship has sailed.
I personally do not care where the trains are produced.
Excepting the Kadee freight cars, which are produced in the U.S., and which now are competitively priced (especially if detailing is considered) relative to the recent Chinese-produced freight cars, I will not pay extra for made in the U.S.A.
Not one nickel extra. I simply don't have extra money to spend.
I have recently purchased Chinese-made BLI Paragon2, Athearn Genesis, and MTH steam locomotives--and the assembly quality, fit, and finish of the particular engines I received was outstanding in all cases. However, they were all the "top" end models.
John
P.S. Some will obviously disagree with my post, and that's fine. You all are entitled to your opinions. I respectfully offer the following real money example, though it is a couple years out of date now:
Option A: Produce can motor in China and have it delivered to your doorstep here (in lots of 10,000): Cost $4.00 each delivered, includes all shipping charges.
Option B: Produce can motor in U.S.A. with American labor: Cost more than $20.00 each.
Now if you are Atlas, or are attempting to compete with Atlas and must therefore offer a competitive product at a competitive price, which Option will you choose? If China becomes expensive, they'll just shift manufacturing to another developing (but still way cheaper than U.S.A.) country.
dm9538 I've heard alot of complaints from modelers including myself about a the cost of and or the fact that most of what we buy is made in China. So I've thougt of a few questions, a survey if you will. Let's say we pay on average about $25 to $35 for an RTR freight car with a high level of detail that is produced largely China. Question 1 Would you pay more for the same car same level of detail produced entirely in the US? If so how much more? Question 2 Would you still pay the same $25 to $35 for the same car produced in the US but with less detail. how much less detail I'm not really sure. I don't work for a manufacturer. I'm just another model railroader but these questions have always bothered me. Like alot of you guys I'm sure, if at all possible I would like to have American made products but how much more does it really cost to produce the products as we've become acustomed to here instead of China, and are we either willing to more or maybe accept less in detail to keep the cost in line with what we currently pay. I would like to here your thoughts.
Depending on the amount of detail removed, I would pay the same price for models made here over the models made out of the USA and use them for club layout operations. Many of the cars available now have excellent detail, but that detail can be damaged if you handle them while using them at club layouts. Home layouts probably are better for high detail cars since the cars remain on the layout and not packed and unpacked every time they are used.
CZ
No way I am spending $25 for any car. I will buy used at eBay or flea market first. Second choice is to buy a kit. Third choice is scratch build.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
BRAKIEYoHo1975From what I understand in talking with others. The reason Athearn shut down the blue box line was because California made it impossible for them to produce it profitably and once they began producing overseas-snip Also according to Athearn it was the lack of BB sales that doomed these kits. Today's market shifted to RTR and I fear the kit era will end..
Also, I humbly present the Inflation calculator http://www.westegg.com/inflation/
For those of you pounding your fist about how much you will or won't spend, It might be interesting.
a $15 freight car today would have cost $9.25 in 1990 (which is the year I personally base my inner hobby pricing on) A $25 car would have been $15. So really, the price of cars hasn't risen all that much except for inflation. All product costs have gone up with inflation, not just model products.
Now, locomotives, those prices have increased a little more than the rate of inflation, especially if you're talking Athearn RTR style.
YoHo1975And yet how many of the RTR series use the same molds? The Blue Box line dropped sales because nothing new was brought out in it. limited new designs, limited new road numbers and their were stacks of them not selling. Athearn did a bad job of keeping those kits fresh. They went to RTR overseas instead. Also, I humbly present the Inflation calculator http://www.westegg.com/inflation/ For those of you pounding your fist about how much you will or won't spend, It might be interesting. a $15 freight car today would have cost $9.25 in 1990 (which is the year I personally base my inner hobby pricing on) A $25 car would have been $15. So really, the price of cars hasn't risen all that much except for inflation. All product costs have gone up with inflation, not just model products.
YoHo, I basicly agree with you about inflation, but I use 1968, the year I started buying blue box kits - most were about $2.
It was the government regulations regarding painting, etc, which helped limit the state side advancement of the Athearn line, kit or RTR. In China they still understand that MANUFACTURING involves chemicals and machines - an idea lost on the Calf. government.
Going overseas allowed them to invest in new paint processes, better lettering, etc, at a cost that would still keep them in the market. It just so happens they can also assemble the darn thing while they are at it for the same price.
I wouldn't pay $25 for any freight car - right now if I run across some of the Athearn BB kits I am snatching them up providing they work for my RR. I will also look at Ebay or buy kits - but to spend that kind of money isn't in my plan.
To me, this thread gets at another issue - is model railroading pricing itself out of the reach of some people? Granted there are various levels of product but are people getting turned off because of price? I have a limit on how much I will spend on any given item and when I see prices that exceed that limit, I put the item back on the shelf. Sure, I could lay it away, or internet shop, but I like to eat and drink good wine.
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
I'm going to agree with the majority here and say that I do NOT pay >$25 for a RTR freight car. Where it's made doesn't concern me as much as maybe it should. I want a quality item (good trucks, proper weight, and good couplers) but I'm not so big on incredible detail. First, most of it is stuck on the underside of the car and second, alot of those fragile details that are on the top and sides get broken off with handling. I prefer the basic detailing of the Athearn BB and MDC/Roundhouse kits. Accurail is quickly becoming my favorite.
If RTR at $30+ becomes the standard, I will be on eBay swooping up old BB kits left and right.
As far as kits with great detail at resonable prices go, I do build a bunch of Tichey cars. I have close to 30 of their tank car done in a Sinclair scheme.
HaroldATo me, this thread gets at another issue - is model railroading pricing itself out of the reach of some people? Granted there are various levels of product but are people getting turned off because of price?
This reminds me of a saying: "how do you eat an elephant....one bite at a time." What I mean by this is that manufacturers are slowly taking us to the maximum we are willing to pay for whatever they offer. Even if the models we see have exquisite detail, are they really worth the $25+ price? Maybe, maybe not; but a lot here, myself included, won't pay over a certain price for an item. I know I won't pay $30 MSRP or more for a RTR model if I can find a better deal online, at auction or train show. Once the group (a vast majority of MR's) finally get to the point that we stop buying and manufacturers feel the loss of revenue, maybe then they will stop eating at us "one bite at a time". I wonder at what price that's going to be at? Could be $40, $60....some RTR's are already there, but I guess that we'll just have to wait and see.
TONY
"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)
I would pay more for a USA made anything! I actually look at products before I buy just to check. We all need to do our part to keep people working in the USA. If not we will soon be slaves to another country. This goes even for trains. I always would buy Bowser but now they are over the pond too. We can make a difference in the economy 1 purchase at a time! Remeber that the next time you pick up something to buy.
PRRT1MAN I would pay more for a USA made anything! I actually look at products before I buy just to check. We all need to do our part to keep people working in the USA. If not we will soon be slaves to another country. This goes even for trains. I always would buy Bowser but now they are over the pond too. We can make a difference in the economy 1 purchase at a time! Remeber that the next time you pick up something to buy.