I HATE limited travel potentiometer throttles, the endless turning digital encoder offers far finer control than any simple potentiometer ever could. However - next time you operate on the Digitrax layout try using the + and - buttons to control speed, since you like pushbuttons, That works too, on the DT throttles (which you must be using since the UT throttles have potentiometers). This is obviously not an issue of "no feedback" because pushing buttons for faster or slower has no direct feedback either. If you push the 'faster' button a couple of times, just how fast are you going? What if you can't see the train? Is there a display like on the DT400 throttle that at least gives you a relative percentage so you know if you are at 1/4 throttle, half throttle, or running wide open? Ergonomics? I hold the DT400 down at my side with one hand, using my thumb to rotate the speed dial and click it to reverse, leaving my other hand free to operate coupler picks.
The move towards 28 functions has made EVERYONE's throttle display clunky, and is entirely unecessary. Even with sound, you do NOT need 28 functions - unless you are lazy. Press F2 to blow the horn as long as yuou hold it - so you can make any signal. Or hey, look, hit F21 and you get a grade crossing signal. Whoopee. Getting there is clunky, because I really don't think anyone is goign to make a throttle with induvidual buttons for 28 functions - and if they did, what happens when it expands to 36 functions? Stop the insanity! We now have more function buttoms than a prototypical locomotive has.
ANd of course you can nver win when it comes to how many buttons. The DT400 is actually far easier to operate than the predecessor DT300 and DT100 throttles, simply because it does have more buttons - every button does ONE thing, no SHIFT and ALT combinations which are A) impossible to do with one hand and B) impossible to remember. 10 of those are just numbers 0-9 so you can just type in the cab number of the loco to run - how difficult is that? That's the only button pushing you have to do with DCC for the entire time you run a given loco, unless you have sound and want to blow the whistle and ring the bell. Othersie, you just adjust the speed knob and maybe change direction, just like a DC throttle. And watch the tracks ahead like a good engineer should.
Oh, and the $12 decoders ARE good quality decoders - if you buy the NCE $12 decoders and not th Bachmann $12 decoders. Actually, I think the Bachmann ones cost MORE than $12 - in which case I wonder who would even buy that junk.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
BRAKIE DJ,Like I said I was a mite confused because I have done all of what you mention. You do know the higher you set the speed knob the longer it takes for the engine to start moving.I am probably among the few that likes momentum. Atlas and Athearn uses a 14:1 gear ratio..The difference is in the motor's circuit draw..However,I seen Genesis and Atlas locomotives play very well together. One big problem with DC is the modeler.Way to many times I seen block overkill on small to medium size layouts..There is no real reason to block a industrial siding or every 36" piece of flex track...Many blocks can be eliminated by using power routed turnouts..Of course that goes against the magazine "experts" but,it does work.. On some of by 12"x12' ISL the whole layout is one big block with no bus and feeder wire since there is no need. DC can be very simple or complex just like DCC. My DCC operation was very basic.2 wires to the track and other then consisting no CV settings. The only reason I went DCC was for sound.When sound came available for DC use with a Atlas Quantum Engineer Controller that killed DCC on my 1 horse ISL..However,I no longer have a sound equipped locomotive or a HO ISL since changing my primary scale from HO to N so I could hve a home layout and I still don't have any need for DCC... Now,I was the hostler on a DCC layout..I handle roughly 70 locomotives and by the time the ops session was over I felt like a accountant! That was the last time I signed up for that job!!! Larry.Columbus & Hocking Valley Ry.Serving the Industries of the Hocking Valley. .
DJ,Like I said I was a mite confused because I have done all of what you mention.
You do know the higher you set the speed knob the longer it takes for the engine to start moving.I am probably among the few that likes momentum.
Atlas and Athearn uses a 14:1 gear ratio..The difference is in the motor's circuit draw..However,I seen Genesis and Atlas locomotives play very well together.
One big problem with DC is the modeler.Way to many times I seen block overkill on small to medium size layouts..There is no real reason to block a industrial siding or every 36" piece of flex track...Many blocks can be eliminated by using power routed turnouts..Of course that goes against the magazine "experts" but,it does work..
On some of by 12"x12' ISL the whole layout is one big block with no bus and feeder wire since there is no need.
DC can be very simple or complex just like DCC.
My DCC operation was very basic.2 wires to the track and other then consisting no CV settings.
The only reason I went DCC was for sound.When sound came available for DC use with a Atlas Quantum Engineer Controller that killed DCC on my 1 horse ISL..However,I no longer have a sound equipped locomotive or a HO ISL since changing my primary scale from HO to N so I could hve a home layout and I still don't have any need for DCC...
Now,I was the hostler on a DCC layout..I handle roughly 70 locomotives and by the time the ops session was over I felt like a accountant!
That was the last time I signed up for that job!!!
tstage Sheldon, I believe you took Crandell's comment completely the wrong way. If I know Crandell, he only made the statement because he thought the fire of the conversation had died down too much. So, this was his attempt at humorously "throwing gas on the embers" in a tongue-'n-cheek manner.
Sheldon,
I believe you took Crandell's comment completely the wrong way. If I know Crandell, he only made the statement because he thought the fire of the conversation had died down too much. So, this was his attempt at humorously "throwing gas on the embers" in a tongue-'n-cheek manner.
Tongue-'n-cheek or not, I simply and politely explained why would not buy Digitrax even if I did go DCC.
I think too many people accept poor ergonomics on lots of "technology" today, not just DCC controllers.
Some tech geek who designs this stuff says this is how it has to be done so people just deal with it because they want the other features. Same is true of cell phones, stereo recievers, blue ray players, etc,etc.
Many of these designers like the "hidden code" idea of button pushing sequences and it does make the electronics cheaper and easier, at the cost of being less user friendly.
I'll keep my Stereo reciever that actually has a knob for the bass and a knob for the trebble rather than some 10 digit sequence to find and change those ajustments.
And I'll keep my train controllers with five big simple buttons rather than 32 that my fingers can't hardly get on. People talk about their kids running their DCC, My 3 year old Grand Daughter runs my trains with the TE with great skill.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALselectorOh, and Digitrax systems are waaaaay better than all the rest....waaay.... And this too is just subjective personal opinion. I use Digitrax on four different layouts that operate on a regular basis. I don't like it one bit. If I ever changed my layout goals, or built a seperate second layout to which DCC would be a benifit (a possiblility I have always freely admitted), it would be almost anything other than Digitrax...
selectorOh, and Digitrax systems are waaaaay better than all the rest....waaay....
And this too is just subjective personal opinion. I use Digitrax on four different layouts that operate on a regular basis. I don't like it one bit. If I ever changed my layout goals, or built a seperate second layout to which DCC would be a benifit (a possiblility I have always freely admitted), it would be almost anything other than Digitrax...
I believe you took Crandell's comment completely the wrong way. Note the at the bottom of his post.
If I know Crandell, he only made the statement because he thought the fire of the conversation was dying down and this was his attempt at humorously "tossing gas on the embers" in a tongue-'n-cheek manner. Looks like it worked.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
And this too is just subjective personal opinion. I use Digitrax on four different layouts that I operate on a regular basis. I don't like it one bit. If I ever changed my layout goals, or built a seperate second layout to which DCC would be a benifit (a possiblility I have always freely admitted), it would be almost anything other than Digitrax.
Features/ergonomics I don't care for:
Endless wheel throttle knobs
Small icon cluttered display
Small closely grouped buttons
Icons/criptic symbols identifing those buttons
Large number of buttons on controller
Plugging in to aquire/un-aquire (I know they have finally fixed this one - more expense for new hardware)
Small, hard to turn/see address dials on the UT4
Danglely "antenna/plug in" wire
All the different multi button sequences for various tasks
I have not had the oportunity to try all the others out there, but the few other brands I have tried or read up on all seem easier to use. I would like to actually run someones Easy DCC one time. It looks to be by far the most user friendly DCC wireless throttle.
What I do like about my Aristo Train Engineer DC Throttles is that they only have five big buttons for actual train control - FASTER, SLOWER, EAST, WEST, EMERGENCY STOP. They can be easily identified by feel without taking your eyes off the train.
When I first decided to investigate the Train Engineer, I was very skeptical about the push button control rather than a knob. I was actually able to borrow one and run a number of tests before deciding to go in that direction. I was very surprised by the ease of use and excelent control.
They control the motors with square wave, full voltage, pulse width modulation just like a DCC decoder, so slow speed is excelent. The very nature of how they work provides some momentum even with the momentum feature at its lowest (off) setting. Even when you start or stop "quickly", it is smooth and controlled.
I was able to modify the antennas with no loss of range into short, 4-1/2" "rubber duckies". Their cost was reasonable (and still is although it has increased some since I purchased mine).
For the era I model and the models I own, I have no problem with multiple powered units running together. Most of my diesels are one brand or run in one brand sets, but many I have tested run just fine withother brands.
And many of todays steam locos of different brands run together on DC quite well - Example, my Proto 2-8-8-2's and Spectrum 2-6-6-2's run flawlessly double headed one with the other.
Rating desired layout/operational features for ME (0-10):
Signaling - 10
CTC/ABS operation - 10
Sound - 0
Multiple trains/operators in close quarters - 2
Engine terminal work - 4
Prototype or nearly prototype train lengths - 10
Industrial switching right on the mainline - 2 (most of my industries are in industrial areas, like a seperate belt line)
Staging of lots of trains to enter/leave the modeled "scenes" - 10
Yard/Industrial area work - 9 (but remember its off the mainline)
My main freight yard is double ended and is actually wired so that each ladder is a seperate section (block). If a track is aligned at both ends, the Engineer needs both sections to enter or travel in that yard track - BUT if it is only aligned at one end, then the ladder that is aligned has control/access to that whole track and the other end does not. This allows two crews to switch the yard at the same time, one from each end. Yes, there are times when one must stop to let the other make a move. But in prototype operation this happens anyway. Yard masters do not generally allow multiple crews to be moving within a certian distance/territory of each other, even in a yard.
So while seemingly complex, my control system is easily built on the workbench in sections and connected to the layout. It offers lots of different operational options, and works well for me. With DC, good and sometimes complex design does make for easy use - quick and simple lack of design can often make DC hard to use.
twhite...And I'd be going for top-grade decoders, which are probably a lot more than $12.
Ahaaa...!! We knew you'd cave eventually, Tom. How about a photo essay of your first insallation?
Oh, and Digitrax systems are waaaaay better than all the rest....waaay....
Drilinetwhite One locomotive per year is a LOT less expensive than fifty decoders in one fell swoop. Get real. . Ok, lets get real. 50 decoders times $12.00 a piece comes to $600. That's an awfully cheap brass locomotive. I assume a nice brass loco is closer to $1,000 a piece or more?
twhite One locomotive per year is a LOT less expensive than fifty decoders in one fell swoop. Get real.
One locomotive per year is a LOT less expensive than fifty decoders in one fell swoop.
Get real.
Try $375 or so--about the same list price as most contemporary steamers. When you collect brass for a specific railroad like I do--as that's the only way you can GET steam locos for my prototype--, you learn how and where to shop.
And I'd be going for top-grade decoders, which are probably a lot more than $12.
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
It's nice to see that this discussion has at least remained such. I think that too many times, though, we forget that just because a system works for us, it's not necessarily the best for others. As a DC operator, I can see the benefits of DCC in many scenarios, especially for club layouts or home layouts where multiple operators gather - no one can deny that it's ideally suited to such situations. And if a DC operator can accomplish much the same results, more power to him.
My layout is a room-sized one, with no signalling and very simple wiring. I do have a few toggle switches to isolate passing tracks or sidings, but nothing complicated to wire or to operate. Two wires connect the power source to the track, and I use a tethered throttle to control one train at a time. This is the way the layout was designed to be operated - by one person controlling one train. There is no place for another train to be running, unattended (and, I might add, un-enjoyed), no unwanted sound effects, and no moment unsavoured - in other words, no train running with no one to appreciate it. This, however, is precisely the point that many tout as a benefit of DCC, but that I personally find disquieting. By all means enjoy your consisting and your sound effects, and even your trains running unattended, but enough of suggesting that those of us who enjoy something else are somehow missing out. I have everything which I need and also everything which I want. And I hope that all who have responded here are able to say the same.
(I guess that the foregoing seven pages worth of discussion means that I was wrong about the spelling error, eh?)
Wayne
twhiteOne locomotive per year is a LOT less expensive than fifty decoders in one fell swoop. Get real.
DJO BRAKIE DJO im not supersmart like some of you guys but whats all the fussin about. paul3 made good sense. dc and dcc have got good points and bad. i didnt like fliping atlas slide switches and buttons to set up bloks every time i run 2 trains and want to switch cars. another bugger for me was if i copled my atlas engines together with athern engines they fight each other! with dcc speed match now 3 of my engines can run copled without jerking and the headlites stay on. i learned how to do momentom. my engines take off slow and take time to stop. so now dcc makes me feel like a real train engineer. DJ,I'm sorry but,I am a mite confused here. Why would you need to flip/slide a switch every time you switch cars? Are you also saying a locomotive on DC can't creep from tie to tie or have smooth slow starts? Are you saying by using "momentum" on a DC pack one can't have the same slow start/stop results as you do with DCC? brakie i was talking about flipping for the blok on my main tracks and sideings. all of my engines creep on dc but i cant run atlas and atherns together on dc without them bucking like cranky horses in a barn. something about the gear size i think. but on dcc its a peace of cake! the momentom for dcc is better than the dc powerpak because you can ajust it from super long take off to quik take off. my engines got hot after a while on dc momentom. with dcc i can set my engines to take off pulling a 30 car train and when i turn the control down to 0 it still takes the train over 1 minute to stop. like i said it makes me feel like a real engineer. on dcc i run engines not track bloks. i used to bad mouth dcc. now it lets me have fun.
BRAKIE DJO im not supersmart like some of you guys but whats all the fussin about. paul3 made good sense. dc and dcc have got good points and bad. i didnt like fliping atlas slide switches and buttons to set up bloks every time i run 2 trains and want to switch cars. another bugger for me was if i copled my atlas engines together with athern engines they fight each other! with dcc speed match now 3 of my engines can run copled without jerking and the headlites stay on. i learned how to do momentom. my engines take off slow and take time to stop. so now dcc makes me feel like a real train engineer. DJ,I'm sorry but,I am a mite confused here. Why would you need to flip/slide a switch every time you switch cars? Are you also saying a locomotive on DC can't creep from tie to tie or have smooth slow starts? Are you saying by using "momentum" on a DC pack one can't have the same slow start/stop results as you do with DCC?
DJO im not supersmart like some of you guys but whats all the fussin about. paul3 made good sense. dc and dcc have got good points and bad. i didnt like fliping atlas slide switches and buttons to set up bloks every time i run 2 trains and want to switch cars. another bugger for me was if i copled my atlas engines together with athern engines they fight each other! with dcc speed match now 3 of my engines can run copled without jerking and the headlites stay on. i learned how to do momentom. my engines take off slow and take time to stop. so now dcc makes me feel like a real train engineer.
im not supersmart like some of you guys but whats all the fussin about. paul3 made good sense. dc and dcc have got good points and bad. i didnt like fliping atlas slide switches and buttons to set up bloks every time i run 2 trains and want to switch cars. another bugger for me was if i copled my atlas engines together with athern engines they fight each other! with dcc speed match now 3 of my engines can run copled without jerking and the headlites stay on. i learned how to do momentom. my engines take off slow and take time to stop. so now dcc makes me feel like a real train engineer.
DJ,I'm sorry but,I am a mite confused here.
Why would you need to flip/slide a switch every time you switch cars?
Are you also saying a locomotive on DC can't creep from tie to tie or have smooth slow starts?
Are you saying by using "momentum" on a DC pack one can't have the same slow start/stop results as you do with DCC?
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I think Dave hit it. With DCC, the operational aspect of the layout is completely independent of any track wiring or power distribution. If you model a specific prototype and you design the DC system to support that, great, it will work just fine. But for someone who is more of a freelancer, what if you do this, and then after several years of satisfying operating sessions decide to try something different? Either you rewire, or you work within the limitations established by the fixed block locations. So there you have it - building 'the big one' or the 'last one' and have a fixed operating scheme in mind, well, then the more rigid design of DC control won't be a problem. But not set for life, the flexibility of DCC will come in handy should you want to change operating schemes sometime down the line.
davidmbedard twhiteIn my case, I've got close to 50 brass locos that I've spent a lot of time fine-tuning to run extremely well on my DC layout, and the thought of retrofitting all of them (because I run ALL of them) with decoders not only sounds prohibitively expensive, but pretty darned 'iffy' once I get into them to do the retrofitting. Tom Poor argument. If one can afford 50 brass locos, there is no reason they cannot afford decoders for them. Consider for the price of one of them, you are into a top-end DCC system and many decoders. David B
twhiteIn my case, I've got close to 50 brass locos that I've spent a lot of time fine-tuning to run extremely well on my DC layout, and the thought of retrofitting all of them (because I run ALL of them) with decoders not only sounds prohibitively expensive, but pretty darned 'iffy' once I get into them to do the retrofitting. Tom
Poor argument. If one can afford 50 brass locos, there is no reason they cannot afford decoders for them. Consider for the price of one of them, you are into a top-end DCC system and many decoders.
David B
David:
If you think I bought all 50 of those brass locos yesterday, you are definitely in need of a Reality Check. I'm 70 years old, I bought my first--and still operational--brass loco at the age of 20. Fifty years ago. Which averages out to about one a year, if you do the math.
dehusman Reagardless of the complexity of the wiring or how complex the control circuits, you still can't put 2 DC engines in the same track block and control them independently. Ain't gonna happen. DCC its no big deal. Anyway you cut it, in DC the control is divided into descrete track segments, in DCC the control is assigned to descrete vehicles. For the vast majority of model railroad operation you can make the DC track segments small enough that its a non-issue or you can mange the situation to avoid getting two engines into the same track segment. With DCC its not something that has to be considered at all.
Reagardless of the complexity of the wiring or how complex the control circuits, you still can't put 2 DC engines in the same track block and control them independently. Ain't gonna happen. DCC its no big deal.
Anyway you cut it, in DC the control is divided into descrete track segments, in DCC the control is assigned to descrete vehicles.
For the vast majority of model railroad operation you can make the DC track segments small enough that its a non-issue or you can mange the situation to avoid getting two engines into the same track segment. With DCC its not something that has to be considered at all.
The biggest area that you see the difference between DC and DCC that Dave is talking about is in an engine terminal or facility. There is no way that DC can compare to DCC when it comes to storing, moving or hostling engines around a servicing facility. 2,3, or 4 locos on one storage track. Pick the one (call them A, B, C & D) you want to move, select it on your throttle and move it. If you want to move Engine B from the fuel track to a train in the yard, then select A, move it of the way from Track 1 to Track 2, then select B and move it to the train in the yard. If both A and B and C are parked on the same track 1 inch apart you'll have a difficult time doing it in DC, but not in DCC.
Nevin:
Small or large, track-sliders are an absolute boon to we steam runners, especially locos that only pick up from one side of the rail. All of my brass--locos and tenders-- have been equipped with them, from my 4-6-0 clear up to my big articulateds, and the result in response and smooth running has been absolutely remarkable.
For a while, while I was converting, I almost got the feeling that I was keeping Tomar Industries in business, LOL! Best thing I ever discovered.
When I was there he was much farther along with converting the diesel fleet than the steam. The steam that had been converted tended to be rather large and articulated , but ran very well. I would say about 30% of the steam fleet had been converted. Both the owner and his friends are clearly exceptional modelers who have spent a lot time taking apart and improving brass locomotives. So these were really tuned engines to begin with.
I have had some problems when I have converted a small HO 0-6-0 to DCC so I know what you are describing. I went to track sliders to improve pickup. My layout requires small steam so dealing with electrical pick-up issues is going to be a problem for me either way. - Nevin
NevinW Reading this discussion reminds me of a couple of visits I made to a relatively famous large layout for operations sessions about 7 years ago. This layout is extremely well done and was a DC system the first time I operated on it. It has been on the cover of MR and RMC. It had a large master control panel and one person (who was the designer of the panel) manned it for the entire operating session. I had a lot of fun operating on the railroad. Afterward we had a long discussion about DC vs. DCC. The owner concluded he was going to stick with DC for all of the usual reasons sited in this thread but particularly the problem of owning a large number of beautiful brass steam engines that he didn't want to install decoders in loomed large. Fast forward to 2 years later and he had converted to DCC. The same guy who had designed the main control panel was now installing decoders. The master panel was still there but it was disconnected and unmanned. It was the same beautiful layout but everyone agreed that the switch to DCC had enhanced the operations potential of this railroad. I think that one can have a very good DC model railroad that is fun to operate, but DCC definitely enhances the fun operations potential IMO. - Nevin
Reading this discussion reminds me of a couple of visits I made to a relatively famous large layout for operations sessions about 7 years ago. This layout is extremely well done and was a DC system the first time I operated on it. It has been on the cover of MR and RMC. It had a large master control panel and one person (who was the designer of the panel) manned it for the entire operating session. I had a lot of fun operating on the railroad. Afterward we had a long discussion about DC vs. DCC. The owner concluded he was going to stick with DC for all of the usual reasons sited in this thread but particularly the problem of owning a large number of beautiful brass steam engines that he didn't want to install decoders in loomed large. Fast forward to 2 years later and he had converted to DCC. The same guy who had designed the main control panel was now installing decoders. The master panel was still there but it was disconnected and unmanned. It was the same beautiful layout but everyone agreed that the switch to DCC had enhanced the operations potential of this railroad. I think that one can have a very good DC model railroad that is fun to operate, but DCC definitely enhances the fun operations potential IMO. - Nevin
Neven:
One question--how did that large number of brass locos work with DCC decoders in them? Not trying to be argumentative (I've gotten in enough trouble on this thread, LOL!), but I've heard horror stories of smooth-running brass locos turning into jerky, quirky prima donnas because of pickup problems once converted to DCC.
In my case, I've got close to 50 brass locos that I've spent a lot of time fine-tuning to run extremely well on my DC layout, and the thought of retrofitting all of them (because I run ALL of them) with decoders not only sounds prohibitively expensive, but pretty darned 'iffy' once I get into them to do the retrofitting.
I suppose if I were modeling the present era instead of the 1940's and running nothing but diesel, I'd be prone to try DCC, but at my age, the thought of literally 'starting all over again' with the fleet that I've got just doesn't sound worth it.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
DrilineBRAKIEI can wire blocks on my layouts by using Atlas selectors and plastic rail joiners on the common rail.. That's fine if you're a noobie...
BRAKIEI can wire blocks on my layouts by using Atlas selectors and plastic rail joiners on the common rail..
That's fine if you're a noobie...
mikesmowers I hooked up my PSX-AR auto reverser yesterday and it is simply fantastic. I just can't get over how well it works, I do not understand how but it does. I simply wanted to brag a little on how well DCC works. Mike
I hooked up my PSX-AR auto reverser yesterday and it is simply fantastic. I just can't get over how well it works, I do not understand how but it does. I simply wanted to brag a little on how well DCC works. Mike
I'm assuming the OP's PSX-AR auto reverser automatically adjusts the polarity for reverse loops.
The DCC discussion y'all are having is entertaining, but I'm trying to figure out the part about wanting to have a reverse loop on a model railroad. Modeling the end terminal of passenger train operations, and the need to turn the train to keep the cars in the same order, I understand. Modeling a unit coal train while its under the tipple and on a balloon track, I understand. I never understood what other reasons there would be to turn an entire train, just to send it going back to where it came from.
Just avoid all the toggles and switches, then the need to invest time and money in DCC, by not having the reverse loop to begin with.
Doug
- Douglas
Driline BRAKIEI can wire blocks on my layouts by using Atlas selectors and plastic rail joiners on the common rail.. That's fine if you're a noobie. But ALL of the modelrailroaders I grew up with moved on to toggle and rotary switches on the fascia. Then we found DCC and never went back.
BRAKIEI can wire blocks on my layouts by using Atlas selectors and plastic rail joiners on the common rail..
That's fine if you're a noobie. But ALL of the modelrailroaders I grew up with moved on to toggle and rotary switches on the fascia. Then we found DCC and never went back.
Why complicate the simple and end up with a rat nest of wires? One doesn't have to be newbie to use selectors since they make installing blocks easy..I even know of a club that uses 'em in their yard.
I found and use DCC for about a year and decided it was ok but,I decided for a 1 horse ISL DCC was overkill.I sold my Empire Builder II to another guy and he sold it after building a rather large ISL.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL...Compairing their layouts to yours is the same as compairing mine to yours. Its not a DC vs DCC issue. Its do you want signals and remote turnouts and dispatcher control - all those things take wire, hardware and money with DC or DCC.
Okay, I can see that. I don't have signalling and block detection, so in that respect, I understand that you are using a DC system to largely automate a layout. It would be quite involved in DCC as well.
Thanks, Sheldon.
-Crandell
Silver Pilot Driline BRAKIEI can wire blocks on my layouts by using Atlas selectors and plastic rail joiners on the common rail.. That's fine if you're a noobie. But ALL of the modelrailroaders I grew up with moved on to toggle and rotary switches on the fascia. Then we found DCC and never went back. Or if you're 70+ years old and are, to paraphrase Bobby Unser, an analog mind stuck in a digital world. Brakie, Sheldon & TT probably haven't figured out the whole digital TV thing yet either; We should all be impressed that they've figured out computers and the internet. Though we know that TT hasn't figured out digital cameras and how to post pictures yet.
Or if you're 70+ years old and are, to paraphrase Bobby Unser, an analog mind stuck in a digital world. Brakie, Sheldon & TT probably haven't figured out the whole digital TV thing yet either; We should all be impressed that they've figured out computers and the internet. Though we know that TT hasn't figured out digital cameras and how to post pictures yet.
Actually I found computers,gaming systems,cell phones,my oild VCR,DVD, digital tv and my micowave easy to use.
Silver PilotOr if you're 70+ years old and are, to paraphrase Bobby Unser, an analog mind stuck in a digital world. Brakie, Sheldon & TT probably haven't figured out the whole digital TV thing yet either; We should all be impressed that they've figured out computers and the internet. Though we know that TT hasn't figured out digital cameras and how to post pictures yet.
Actually, I'm 52, a Residential Designer specializing in Historic Restoration. In a past life as an industrial electrical construction designer and project manager I designed and installed some of the first installs of Programable Logic Controllers in the early 1980's.
I have designed and built HiFi speakers systems and was on the cuting edge of surround sound in the early eightes as well. I am an accomplished Electrician, Carpenter, Plumber, HVAC tech, and darn good auto mechanic if it was built before 1985.
I don't fear technoligy and I'm not in love with it either. It's a tool. Newer is not always better, sometimes its just different.
And, I restored this house, orginally built in 1901, which has since appeared of HGTV's Restore America and did more than half the work myself. Technology? The house has X10 home automation and I have a killer home theater with speakers I designed and built.
And the trains are above the six car garage you can see part of in the background.
selector I have doubts that I would be in the hobby if I had to wire my current layout to operate under the system shown by you, Sheldon. I, too, admire your careful planning, your learning and understanding that led to your ability to figure out and construct this operating system for any layout, and the execution is waaaaaay better than what I can do...and have. But honestly, DCC made it so simple by comparison, and then the operation of a siding for me is simply to slide the leading set of point rails so that the closest train can take it, reline the points for the main, wait for the meet, and then line the next set of points to rejoin the main when the higher priority train has gone by. So, I am operating points as you do, but with a skewer, and I have to push no buttons. -Crandell
I have doubts that I would be in the hobby if I had to wire my current layout to operate under the system shown by you, Sheldon. I, too, admire your careful planning, your learning and understanding that led to your ability to figure out and construct this operating system for any layout, and the execution is waaaaaay better than what I can do...and have. But honestly, DCC made it so simple by comparison, and then the operation of a siding for me is simply to slide the leading set of point rails so that the closest train can take it, reline the points for the main, wait for the meet, and then line the next set of points to rejoin the main when the higher priority train has gone by. So, I am operating points as you do, but with a skewer, and I have to push no buttons.
Crandell,I am a simple man that believes in simple ways and a firmed believer in the KISS method.
I can wire blocks on my layouts by using Atlas selectors and plastic rail joiners on the common rail..
How about one wire to each block?
It doesn't get any easier then that.
Crandell, I get it, if that works for you great! But many in DCC are spending big bucks on decoder controlled turnouts, computer interfaces for CTC, etc, etc. They have more than "two" wires.
Compairing their layouts to yours is the same as compairing mine to yours. Its not a DC vs DCC issue. Its do you want signals and remote turnouts and dispatcher control - all those things take wire, hardware and money with DC or DCC.
In fact, my secondary turnouts are all ground throws just like they would be on the prototype. But ones on the main, that would be tower controlled, are just that, tower controlled with complete interlocking signals and all. In fact, you can't even throw a turnout while the train in in the interlocking territory just like on the prototype.
Its all about different goals. But so many DCC users/supporters have come to believe it is the perfect solution to every layout. While I would look at many layout plans or their owners goal "list" and say they need DCC, that is not true in every case.