tomikawaTTMaxman, I don't know where you got your DC control impressions.
I guess you don't get out much. At the club I belong to, the railroad is divided up into sections. It is basically a point to point railroad. At areas where two trains would pass each other, we have built control panels. So the member standing there operating the trains is sort of looking at a minature tower panel. We have Dallee hand held DC throttles that do indeed have the direction changing toggle switch of which you are familiar.
The Dallee connects to this panel by way of a four pin plug (two for power in, and two for power out). The panels were built with two locations where the Dallees could be connected, so a dexterous individual could operate with two of the hand sets. Or two people could operate independently. The DP/DT toggles "in the track lines of the panel" throw the track power to one handset or to the other.
All of this was setup to allow more of the clubmembers to participate during open house events, and was a far better method than the previous arrangement where two guys would operate the railroad from a central control panel back by the boiler where you couldn't see anything because the scenery and people's heads were in the way.
Yes, I suppose that there are arrangements where the "blocks" as I call them could have had their power assigned by a central dispatcher using a rotary switch or one of Mr. Electrical Guru's relay nightmares. But this would have required the engineer to walk around with his train to plug in whatever he had to use that contained his reversing switch and rheostat, a luxury we didn't have when the crowds came to visit.
And all of this was done before DCC was invented, so that was not an option.
This system has been in place at least 20 years, and was the best we could come up with given our particular set of circumstances.
So that, sir, is where I get my DC control impressions.
davidmbedard You also turn a blind eye to the posts that say that converting brass locos is no big issue? I have never mentioned that Brass locos are difficult to convert, quite the opposite. They are wired simply with lots of room for whatever you wish to accomplish with them DCC-wise. Your worst-case scenario is a re-power, but even then, you can always get a decoder that can handle the amperage needed for the open-framed motors. David B
You also turn a blind eye to the posts that say that converting brass locos is no big issue?
I have never mentioned that Brass locos are difficult to convert, quite the opposite. They are wired simply with lots of room for whatever you wish to accomplish with them DCC-wise. Your worst-case scenario is a re-power, but even then, you can always get a decoder that can handle the amperage needed for the open-framed motors.
David B
David,
You may want to re-read Tom's closing statement at the end of his last post. I've quoted it below for convenience:
twhite The cost seems a little daunting, and I don't mine telling you that when it comes to Things Electric (or electronic), I'm pretty much of a Doofus. If it helps, I just had to have someone come over and install a new amp for my Surround System in my music room. I couldn't make heads or tails out of the instruction manual. So for me, a conversion to DCC has two very BIG drawbacks--cost and electronics. The first doesn't scare me quite THAT much, but the second makes me break out in a sweat.
The cost seems a little daunting, and I don't mine telling you that when it comes to Things Electric (or electronic), I'm pretty much of a Doofus. If it helps, I just had to have someone come over and install a new amp for my Surround System in my music room. I couldn't make heads or tails out of the instruction manual.
So for me, a conversion to DCC has two very BIG drawbacks--cost and electronics. The first doesn't scare me quite THAT much, but the second makes me break out in a sweat.
The word "simply" in your post above - especially in the realm of electronics - is a VERY broad statment that can't be made across the board for everybody. What may seem simple to you may not be quite that simple in someone else's mind.
Case in point: I have yet to run across a book on DC wiring that is able to step-by-step teach you and walk you through how to do it - without making large leaps ahead and BIG assumptions by the author.
That's not to say that Tom can't "learn" to install decoders in his brass locomotives, which I interpreted as clarifying the age and possible pitfalls to a DCC conversion rather than bragging that he had nothing but top-quality "Rolls Royces" in his roster. Tom has mentioned from time to time here that he runs very prototypical D&RGW steamers on garage layout; many which are only available in brass. He was being upfront; not a braggart.
Anyway, if you don't do installs or electronics on a daily or regular basis, it can seem kinda daunting to determine which of your locomotives will need converting (isolated), which might need remotoring, where exactly to put the decoder, which decoder should I use, etc, etc.
Again, it's easier when you have or have had the experience to fall back on. It's another thing altogether to jump in feet first into a realm that is both out of your comfort zone and expertise.
David, I guess I might liken it to your vocal teacher asking you to sing "Vesti la giubba " from Leoncavallo's Pagliacci in your first lesson...and expect you to know exactly how to correctly interpret and perform it the first time through. Daunting? You bet.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Tom, I don't know if you have any experience with DCC at all, but if you don't, and could arrange to get some, you may find yourself writing yet another chapter in your personal story about the hobby. I don't want to appear to be leaning on you, but more-so encouraging you to explore DCC with even one engine, maybe a clunker that actually runs reasonably well. If a hobby shop would be willing to lend you a starter system for a week, it takes the same two main leads on two terminals, and leave your selectors closed if that can be done without confounding them. Place the brass convert or a DCC loner engine on the layout and play with it.
It could be a series of conversions of engines the same way you have acquired them...once a year. As you get more famliar and comfortable, well....there might come a time when you suddenly fall completely and find yourself with a problem...coming over to the Dark Side willy-nilly or calling a nice-to-have...but...
Anyway, DCC is no more complicated than running a computer or compiling posts with a keyboard. Wiring conversion of your layout should be as simple as eliminating any selectors and connecting any wires to them in series for the most part...although a common rail setup is something I'll leave others to talk about.
In the end, I would like to believe that you are happy as you are experiencing the hobby, not as others tell you to enjoy it. Including moi.
-Crandell
Paul and Chuck,
I understand there are many reasons to reverse polarity, and the ones you describe are certainly popular or sometimes essential. The seriousness and helpful tone of your comments is obvious. Its difficult to sometimes express the intended tone with internet comments such as these.
My comments about reverse loops, on the other hand, was just me being a smart-aleck; trying to interject a frivalous question about the need to reverse polarity at all, when the group was entrenched in the traditional DCC/DC debate.
To everybody:
As far as the DCC issue goes, I'll add my two cents. In my situation, I understand my reluctance to have DCC stems from ignorance. I wasn't born with knowledge of DCC. Nobody is. It must be acquired, and everybody acquires the knowledge for their own personal reasons. Some people think it will help them operate their layout. Others just like it because what they really like to do is to tinker with new technology, but don't always like to admit that. Some don't acquire the knowledge because they are intimidated. For me, I have my own reasons.
The marketing of DCC is not presented with the idea that everybody has their own unique model railroad and their own personal goals. It tends to be marketed as though everybody has, or is working towards having, the same type of complicated layout. Maybe I would enjoy the hobby even more if I had one of those layouts. Maybe not. But, when I get the impression that a Digitrax Zephyr is superior, in part, to a Bachmann EZ because it can control 99 locomotives and the Bachmann can control only 10, I feel like there is a bit of snake oil in the product, since, for my railroad, I only need to control about 3. Most often times, whenever someone is talking to me (selling me) about DCC, and I've been to LHS's all over the country, they never bother to ask me how many locomotives I want to control. They tend to just spout off about how much power a system has, or what all it can do. As if I really want to control 99 locomotives at the same time. That approach is a turn off. Read the pamphlets and written ads the manufacturer's produce. While they are tactfully presented, the basic message is the same; "be-dazzle the customer with power and features".
Also, I don't want to pay for stuff I don't need. I don't want to pay for the ability to control 99 locomotives and the option of having authentic (to who's ear?) sound.
When I buy a new car, and I want a few options, I don't want to have to buy the upgraded LXI model, and option package #2, and get a whole bunch of stuff I don't want, but yet must pay for, just to get the few things I really want. We can talk about the consolidation of manufacturing entities, their power over the consumer, and the philosophy they have when building products to maximize profits, but that is another topic.
My layout has two blocked switching towns separated by a 35 foot shelf of mainline in between. I need a wireless throttle, first and foremost. The DCC throttles I am aware of would cost about $500, including the system. Although I only run 3 locos at a time, I have about two dozen for when I want to change era's, paint schemes, modernization, etc. Decoders would add to that cost. Not that the cost of DCC is exhorbitant, its just that I don't want to pay for options I don't use just to get wireless.
Alas, I know my situation is unique, and manufacturer's will never give me a powered down, relatively featureless, DCC chip and system, but with a wireless throttle (that's not infrared). Alas, I therefore know, I will never look to buy into a DCC system until such time as I upgrade my railroading goals, if ever. I'll finish building the current layout first, some day. Those modeler's who live in the more popular modeling world may think it is the greatest. I wish you well with it.
Doug
- Douglas
davidmbedard Near as I can figure, Paul3 is ahead in the accuracy category and Brakie and Sheldon are tied for volume. David B is currently far in the lead in the distance category. And my dead horse counts for nothing?!? David B
Near as I can figure, Paul3 is ahead in the accuracy category and Brakie and Sheldon are tied for volume. David B is currently far in the lead in the distance category.
And my dead horse counts for nothing?!?
Dog food perhaps?
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
selector Tom, thank-you for being a good sport with my post. Sometimes such posts in a contentious thread can be risky, but I am glad you were not fooled. Believe me, you have no monopoly on a queasy stomach when it comes to changing things. I totally get what you are saying. If your system ain't broke, why start taking things apart? -Crandell
Tom, thank-you for being a good sport with my post. Sometimes such posts in a contentious thread can be risky, but I am glad you were not fooled.
Believe me, you have no monopoly on a queasy stomach when it comes to changing things. I totally get what you are saying. If your system ain't broke, why start taking things apart?
Crandell:
You're welcome. However, I am starting to get a little contentious with a certain Dead Horse Beater, so I think I'll quit the thread, now.
Funny thing, I was actually starting to get INTERESTED in the possibilities of DCC.
Oh well--
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe Aristo Train Engineer is currently $240 retail, they can be had for a lot less. When I, and the owner of the layout shown, bought them, we paid and average of $140, and use a $20 power supply for each one.
Yep that is $240 for each throttle. Want to run more than one train and have more than one guy running them...? Don't forget each loco has to have a $37 (retail) receiver installed in it. The advertising used to (back when I wasted over $500 on that system) say it would fit in most HO locomotives. Yeah right! I basically ruined a tender trying to figure what to cut out of it be able to squeeze that monster in there.... Don't think I could get it into any of my steam locomotives..... And in the end between having the 5' long antenna from the controller getting caught on everything in the room and the fact that the loco still couldn't be made to work correctly I finally took it all out and stuck it in a closet. I then, since I wanted to relay track anyway, tore out the heap of wiring for DC along with about a hundred toggles and put a simple Bus around the layout with track feeds in logical places and started to use DCC. Since I don't like HO sound, and don't need a lot of other bells and whistles, each loco gets a simple NCE decoder that goes for less than $20.
You guys can do whatever pleases you. It is, after all, your layout and your hobby. As for me I love DCC and would never ever go back!
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
In which category?
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Paul3Sheldon,I know you got a sweetheart deal on your relays, but do you have any idea of the MSRP cost of each one? DPDT? Latching or non? You have 16 of one kind and 2 of another kind per board. If they average around $10 each for relay and socket, that's $180 per junction; for 8, that's $1440 plus the cost of some buttons and the 6 Aristo radios at $240 ea. So call it around $2900 MSRP for that layout in the pictures. I'm not busting your chops, just trying to get a handle on your retail costs. And for time spent, around 2.5 hours per panel to build and install...that's around 20 hours of labor? And are those 16 relay sockets actually custom etched PCB?
Paul,
YOU can buy those relays from the same place I did for about $3 each just by buying the whole project quantity at once. Actually they are all the same relay, 4PDT ice cube, 24 VDC coil. Yes the groups of eight are on custom boards I had made. But they need not be, that just makes it easier. The boards cost about $20 each to have made. I contracted enough for my layout and my friends layout and a few spares. As a market product they could be done much cheaper. The Aristo Train Engineer is currently $240 retail, they can be had for a lot less. When I, and the owner of the layout shown, bought them, we paid and average of $140, and use a $20 power supply for each one. The LED lighted pushbuttons come from the same supplier as the relays and are about $2 each.
AND, I did tell the owner of that layout the the cost would be similar to DCC, but he did not want to install decoders in his brass shays and such. The layout owner, myself and two others in our group divided up the installation labor with me leading the team. His application does not necessarily maximize the benifits since he does not have signaling or a central panel. BUT, a central panel could be easily added to his system if he wanted it.
Sheldon
davidmbedard David M, unless you are very well informed about a specific modeler's financial situation, perceived excessive cost is NEVER a, "Poor argument." Some of us have to support our hobbies on a frayed shoestring. My own brass was purchased a long time ago, in kit form. Present replacement cost, thanks to inflation and changing exchange rates, is 30-50 times the price I paid. In fact, my typical brass loco cost me less than the decoder I would need to make it DCC-able. ...then he need not mention the fact that he has so many "Brass" locos and just title them as "locos". David B
David M, unless you are very well informed about a specific modeler's financial situation, perceived excessive cost is NEVER a, "Poor argument." Some of us have to support our hobbies on a frayed shoestring. My own brass was purchased a long time ago, in kit form. Present replacement cost, thanks to inflation and changing exchange rates, is 30-50 times the price I paid. In fact, my typical brass loco cost me less than the decoder I would need to make it DCC-able.
...then he need not mention the fact that he has so many "Brass" locos and just title them as "locos".
David:
I mentioned them as being BRASS locomotives because of problems I have heard on other posts with converting brass locomotives to DCC. I wasn't bragging, I was simply stating a fact.
andrechapelon *snip* Final results will be posted when the contest ends either due to the exhaustion of the participants or the game is called on account of the moderators losing their patience. Andre
*snip* Final results will be posted when the contest ends either due to the exhaustion of the participants or the game is called on account of the moderators losing their patience.
Andre
Any wagers on which will happen first?
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.
andrechapelonandrechapelon Scarpia 8 pages? Really guys, 8 pages on this "topic"? And last week's wpf post only got to 5? Huh. Guess my impression of the hobby is way off. Which hobby is that, model railroading or competitive bladder emptying? Andre In competitive bladder emptying, there are 3 categories as follows: volume, distance and accuracy. Near as I can figure, Paul3 is ahead in the accuracy category and Brakie and Sheldon are tied for volume. David B is currently far in the lead in the distance category. Thanks to all who have participated so far. Final results will be posted when the contest ends either due to the exhaustion of the participants or the game is called on account of the moderators losing their patience. Andre
andrechapelon Scarpia 8 pages? Really guys, 8 pages on this "topic"? And last week's wpf post only got to 5? Huh. Guess my impression of the hobby is way off. Which hobby is that, model railroading or competitive bladder emptying? Andre
Scarpia 8 pages? Really guys, 8 pages on this "topic"? And last week's wpf post only got to 5? Huh. Guess my impression of the hobby is way off.
8 pages? Really guys, 8 pages on this "topic"?
And last week's wpf post only got to 5?
Huh. Guess my impression of the hobby is way off.
Which hobby is that, model railroading or competitive bladder emptying?
In competitive bladder emptying, there are 3 categories as follows: volume, distance and accuracy.
Thanks to all who have participated so far. Final results will be posted when the contest ends either due to the exhaustion of the participants or the game is called on account of the moderators losing their patience.
Andre, is it true that color is being discounted in this year's competition? Besides stream length, distance, and accuracy, a fair number of the community is calling for a more natural competition, included some other factors such as brevity, and usefulness.
Apparently from our scientific experts here on call, the color of the stream can also indicate whether or not the athlete has taken hormones or other performance enhancers.
From some sources, this is not a an un- ... I'm sorry what's that..... - we will be right back after this important announcement from our sponsor.
I'm trying to model 1956, not live in it.
Silver Pilot Driline BRAKIEI can wire blocks on my layouts by using Atlas selectors and plastic rail joiners on the common rail.. That's fine if you're a noobie. But ALL of the modelrailroaders I grew up with moved on to toggle and rotary switches on the fascia. Then we found DCC and never went back. Or if you're 70+ years old and are, to paraphrase Bobby Unser, an analog mind stuck in a digital world. Brakie, Sheldon & TT probably haven't figured out the whole digital TV thing yet either; We should all be impressed that they've figured out computers and the internet. Though we know that TT hasn't figured out digital cameras and how to post pictures yet.
Driline BRAKIEI can wire blocks on my layouts by using Atlas selectors and plastic rail joiners on the common rail.. That's fine if you're a noobie. But ALL of the modelrailroaders I grew up with moved on to toggle and rotary switches on the fascia. Then we found DCC and never went back.
BRAKIEI can wire blocks on my layouts by using Atlas selectors and plastic rail joiners on the common rail..
That's fine if you're a noobie. But ALL of the modelrailroaders I grew up with moved on to toggle and rotary switches on the fascia. Then we found DCC and never went back.
Or if you're 70+ years old and are, to paraphrase Bobby Unser, an analog mind stuck in a digital world. Brakie, Sheldon & TT probably haven't figured out the whole digital TV thing yet either; We should all be impressed that they've figured out computers and the internet. Though we know that TT hasn't figured out digital cameras and how to post pictures yet.
Touche'! I have gotten as far as loading the pictures to my hard drive. Someday...
Driline, about the time the first command control system was raising a few tendrils out of the mud I discovered MZL, moved 1/3 of my selectors to zone panels, routed the other circuits to the switch point actuators and never looked back. By the time DCC had bloomed into full flower I was too far along my chosen course to spend $$$ i didn't have to go back to square one.
Doug, you have to remember that some of us operate in the manner of a very specific prototype - including the requirement to keep catenary motors on tracks with wire overhead and steam locos out of the long tunnel the motors use to reach the Netherworld. Down in the depths of the Netherworld there is ONE track section that allows trains to turn endways. It is used to support over 100 train movements per 'day' - most of which involve being turned end-for-end.
Maxman, I don't know where you got your DC control impressions. In every system I've encountered, from two wires to MZL, the only DPDT switches (toggle, slide or whatever) were part of the device that controlled the locomotive, not in the track lines of the panels.
Paul, MZL, as I practice it, is no more complex to wire than traditional DC. The major difference is that I use contacts on switch point actuators (motor or manual) to do what used to be done with toggles on a panel.
To reiterate, for someone who is starting from zero, or from a limited position wanting to expand, DCC is probably a better idea than any form of DC. However, I really am 70+, am in the process of building what I believe is my, "Last in this lifetime," layout and may very well be an analog mind in a digital world. I am very content in my chosen niche.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - as I like it)
Paul3doctorwayne,A lot of us that have DCC were against it ourselves. I was. I was very against DCC. It was due to my ignorance of DCC and what it meant I could do with my layout. I was, indeed, "missing out" by refusing to even consider it. When I saw it and used it, and my other fears assuaged (it's an NMRA Standard), I became an enthusiastic DCC user. Some of us, I guess, feel the need to share that experience with others so that they, too, can enjoy what we now enjoy. Some go too far spreading the news. Hopefully, I haven't.
A lot of us that have DCC were against it ourselves. I was. I was very against DCC. It was due to my ignorance of DCC and what it meant I could do with my layout. I was, indeed, "missing out" by refusing to even consider it. When I saw it and used it, and my other fears assuaged (it's an NMRA Standard), I became an enthusiastic DCC user. Some of us, I guess, feel the need to share that experience with others so that they, too, can enjoy what we now enjoy. Some go too far spreading the news. Hopefully, I haven't.
Thanks for your well-considered reply, Paul.
I'm certainly not against DCC, and did investigate it out of curiosity - while I may be fairly set in my ways, I find it beneficial to remain open-minded, and I'm always as eager to learn as I am to share my own limited knowledge. However, for my interests and operating scheme, I saw no benefits whatsoever: any of my locos run well in almost any combination, I almost always operate alone, and my operating scheme requires an attentive operator for every train, as almost all do some local work at the various towns along the line. While the sounds available nowadays are impressive, they're not especially appealing for me either, although I must admit that most of the time, I keep the speakers for my computer turned off, too.
As for costs, it was originally a concern, but in my present situation, with only a couple dozen locos, it no longer is. I've never understood why so many thought it difficult to equip brass locos with DCC, either: anybody familiar with re-motoring brass should be able to accomplish it easily.
Paul3Personally, I am a total snob when it comes to Atlas electrical parts. I really, really dislike them. To me, it shows a lack of seriousness in the hobby...like seeing exploding boxcars and launching missle cars. I have seen layouts with thousands of bucks and hundreds of hours invested in it...yet they use the cheapest electrical junk on the planet to make it go. Just...plain....ick. Oh, and it's totally possible to have a "rat's nest of wires" with Atlas products. I know because I used to have one.
Personally, I am a total snob when it comes to Atlas electrical parts. I really, really dislike them. To me, it shows a lack of seriousness in the hobby...like seeing exploding boxcars and launching missle cars. I have seen layouts with thousands of bucks and hundreds of hours invested in it...yet they use the cheapest electrical junk on the planet to make it go. Just...plain....ick. Oh, and it's totally possible to have a "rat's nest of wires" with Atlas products. I know because I used to have one.
Another thing to bear in mind is the newcomers to this hobby. Some are adults, either returning to the hobby or discovering it for the first time, and with, relatively speaking, money to burn, while others are students with little or no income. Perhaps someday DCC-equipped starter trainsets will be commonplace, but what grandpa and grandma buy for their grandkids (if they consider trains at all) is usually a DC set. While the adult newcomers can often afford (and want) all the "bells and whistles" associated with DCC, those kids just starting out shouldn't be made to feel that they're not "serious" about the hobby just because they can't afford a certain aspect of it. Hopefully, we "DC-dinosaurs" will be able to provide enough of an example of what can be done in DC, keeping them in the hobby until they are able to move up to DCC or whatever happens to be the preferred system at that time.
Even though diesels rule the rails nowadays, many fans still prefer steam: likewise for control systems, many opt for DCC, but some still prefer DC.
Wayne
David B asks:Are you just making things up?
------------------------------
No,Why would I want to do such a thing when it gains nothing?
I base my comments on my past experiences or first hand observations..
--------------------------------
My old buddy Paul wrote:
Paul,I use Atlas selectors because its easy to wire.You dislike 'em..I hate toggle switches since you need more then 1 wire per block..
IMHO selectors doesn't cheapen a layout as much as modeling or scenery mistakes..Come on now a modeler spends hours making a beautiful water fall with nothing more then a small farm pond to catch billions gallons of water that comes tumbling down the falls and these guys are the so called "experts" that tells us how we should model?
You mention "like seeing exploding boxcars and launching missile cars". Paul,let's not go there on a public forum since that opens up a can of hyper active worms.
Now pray tell how you manage to get a rats nest running one wire to each block? I'll love to have seen that..LOL!
Paul:
Thanks for the answers, I appreciate them.
As to converting the open-frames, I had heard that DCC didn't work well with them. Obviously your success with them gives me something to think about, if I consider the Big Move. Of course, I know that the motor has to be isolated from the frame--that has been standard operational procedure with every locomotive I've converted from open-frame to can.
As to the Tomar sliders--I've not had any problems with them catching on trackwork--but I've had to do some careful adjusting to make sure that the slider itself is in line with my wheel flanges and riding the rail-head as if it had a flange in 'back' of it. But no problems 'catching', and definite improved pickup.
My layout would be run by myself--I'm a "Lone Wolf" kinda guy, and there would be no other operators involved. At the most, given my 'real-time' operating methods, there would be no more than two trains on the layout at any given time (which is what I'm doing now, BTW). It's a non-parallel double track line--similar to the east-west lines on the UP (ex SP) Donner Pass route between Rocklin and Colfax, CA. Stiff mountain grades (2-2.4%) but generous curves (34-36"). Little 'on-line' traffic, save for some local once-a-week 'turn' freights and seasonal cattle moves. Main 'yard' moves would be changing out power between "Valley" and "Mountain" power--either double-heading or replacing with large steam. Some 'rear-end' helper service right out of the main yard where the grade is the heaviest (2.4%), drop-off of helpers half-way up where the grade eases.
Anyway, that's pretty much my 'operations'. I'll be honest, though, if I were to do it, I'd want to convert all of my locos at once, since I really never know WHICH locomotive I want to have running at any given time.
But that's what I'd be facing, pretty much. The cost seems a little daunting, and I don't mine telling you that when it comes to Things Electric (or electronic), I'm pretty much of a Doofus. If it helps, I just had to have someone come over and install a new amp for my Surround System in my music room. I couldn't make heads or tails out of the instruction manual.
But thank you for your information. It's really appreciated.
twhite,No, you didn't post Sheldon's "cheap shot" about flipping block toggles, so don't worry about it.
tomikawaTT,Weren't those DC panels of ours something? They weren't too bad to operate as the blocks progressed across the toggle rows in a linear fashion...for the most part. We would run these panels for hours and hours during train shows. We'd have three toggles on for each train: the block you're in, the block in front, and the block behind, and we'd flip them over and over again. If someone turned on one of your blocks, both trains would be linked and either short out or change speed. Then there would be cries of "Who's got my train?" as at every session someone always screwed up. It was a no-brainer to go from that DC cab control system to DCC. I was against DCC at first (believe it or not), but soon saw the advantages of such a system for our new layout.
Sheldon,I know you got a sweetheart deal on your relays, but do you have any idea of the MSRP cost of each one? DPDT? Latching or non? You have 16 of one kind and 2 of another kind per board. If they average around $10 each for relay and socket, that's $180 per junction; for 8, that's $1440 plus the cost of some buttons and the 6 Aristo radios at $240 ea. So call it around $2900 MSRP for that layout in the pictures. I'm not busting your chops, just trying to get a handle on your retail costs. And for time spent, around 2.5 hours per panel to build and install...that's around 20 hours of labor? And are those 16 relay sockets actually custom etched PCB?
Anyways, on my DCC layout, I figure I've spend around $1100 on the system (w/ 3 wireless throttles), and another $1000 on decoders for 50 locos. If I added three more wireless throttles to equal that layout you wired, that would bring my total up to $2805-ish. Time spent wiring the layout is minimal as I just have two wires running under the track with short feeders every 9'. Time spent installing decoders varies wildly from the easy to the difficult.
All in all, it's about equal except you get signals and automatic train stop (of a sort) and I get free running over my entire layout, speed curves, lighting, and the other DCC options that we all know about. Obviously, you don't care much for the latter because of your wants and needs, and I can appreciate that.
For the "two-wire" argument, it can be done with DCC without issue. My layout is a prime example. However, there are limitations in that signalling and detection is non-existant and one short kills the whole layout...but it can be done.
Brakie,For the record, no, you can't get the same momentum effects from a DC power supply that you can from DCC. It's not possible because DCC has 255 variable momentum rates per loco for both accel and decel. The available DC power supplies have it either on or off and the rate is the same for both accel and decel. It's possible to build such a DC supply, but there isn't one out there today.
Doug,There are a lot of people that like to just see their trains run...for hours. They say it's relaxing. I tend to fall asleep. Reverse loops are therefore common. Also, think of wyes and turntables. They also need reversing blocks.
twhite,I have 6 brass steam engines, 5 brass electrics, 3 brass diesels that I have installed DCC decoders in. Furthermore, at my 70-member club, we have dozens of brass locos that have also been decodered. They all run just as well on DCC as they did on DC. The biggest knock is that on some brass, they run too slow because the track voltage is lower than on the old DC layout days. I get the feeling that some brass locos were meant to run at 16v or even 18v but DCC's 12-14v is too little for these. Still, if you're running freight you won't notice. Passenger locos, OTOH, can be noticably slow if you're used to runnin' them fast on DC. My old brass doodlebug is really, really slow...but my FL9 is just fine.
If anything, DCC can make brass run better with BEMF, or so they tell me. BEMF can smooth out rough valve gear "hitches" and binds if tweaked properly.
Doing brass steam can be easy with DCC. It depends on the room in the boiler and if you want headlights and tender lights. If you put the decoder in the boiler and do not install a back up light, one can still use just the drawbar for power from the tender. If you put the decoder in the tender or add a back-up light, then you have to start adding mini-plugs from Minatronics.
As you can tell, I find these horror stories of DCC in brass to be a bunch of hooey. I've yet to hear anyone actually comment on personal experience with one of these horror stories...just "I've heard..." and "So-and-so said..." Nothing concrete. Trust me. I've done a lot of brass for both myself and for others. It's not that hard. I find it easier to do brass steam than a BB Athearn.
BTW, how do you keep the Tomar shoes from snagging on the track and twisting in annoying ways? My friend has a B&A 4-6-6T that I helped put a shoe on, and every time it runs, the shoe wants to catch on frogs, grade crossings, scenery, etc.
Oh, and FWIW, no one said you had to buy all your DCC decoders at once, either. Buy them here and there and stockpile them. It's not like they rot from disuse. When you get enough, then convert your loco fleet. I did the same thing when I went to Kadees when I was a kid.
BTW, why would you have to replace open frame motors with cans? I have a NJ/Custom Brass NH I-4 with an DC70-clone open frame. It works just fine with an old DH121 DCC decoder.
For figuring out your DCC conversion cost for the system, the questions are: 1). How many trains run at the same time? 2). How many operators are running said trains? 3). Do you want wireless throttles? Answer those, and then we can talk specific prices.
doctorwayne,A lot of us that have DCC were against it ourselves. I was. I was very against DCC. It was due to my ignorance of DCC and what it meant I could do with my layout. I was, indeed, "missing out" by refusing to even consider it. When I saw it and used it, and my other fears assuaged (it's an NMRA Standard), I became an enthusiastic DCC user. Some of us, I guess, feel the need to share that experience with others so that they, too, can enjoy what we now enjoy. Some go too far spreading the news. Hopefully, I haven't. Texas Zephyr,DC block wiring can be easy and simple...especially compared to MZL. A 2-cab system with DPDT center off toggles can be a snap. An engine terminal for one cab is equally easy. A more complicated block control panel like the ones I posted from my old club? Um, not so much. Most people can understand ON and OFF. They are used to turning on a wall switch in their house. Turning on a block is not that different. Linking that block to multiple cabs is another story, but the concept of ON and OFF...well, I hazard a guess that 99% of the population gets that.
Paul A. Cutler III
maxman BRAKIESame thing since both isolates sections of track..You can turn off a "power district" just like a DC block. Come on, now. It is absolutely not the same thing. If I have a single track mainline with a passing siding, and I want to have the ability to pass one train around another with DC, I'll need a toggle switch on each of the tracks that form the passing siding. If I add to that two operators that want their trains to go in opposing directions, I will also need a DP/DT toggle switch in the two tracks that lead into and out of the passing siding tracks. To me, and I think to most others, those four sections of track with their associated toggle switches form the four "blocks" for this section of railroad, at least in the model sense. With DCC, those four sections of track would all be included in one power district. No toggle switches are required for the two engineers to pass their trains. Further, most if not all of the "power district" definitions I've seen in the model railroad press involve the number of power units that can congregate in one particular location. So a 150 foot mainline that only sees one train at a time may be part of a power district, but a roundhouse with 15 sound engines may form a power district by itself.
BRAKIESame thing since both isolates sections of track..You can turn off a "power district" just like a DC block.
Come on, now. It is absolutely not the same thing. If I have a single track mainline with a passing siding, and I want to have the ability to pass one train around another with DC, I'll need a toggle switch on each of the tracks that form the passing siding. If I add to that two operators that want their trains to go in opposing directions, I will also need a DP/DT toggle switch in the two tracks that lead into and out of the passing siding tracks. To me, and I think to most others, those four sections of track with their associated toggle switches form the four "blocks" for this section of railroad, at least in the model sense.
With DCC, those four sections of track would all be included in one power district. No toggle switches are required for the two engineers to pass their trains. Further, most if not all of the "power district" definitions I've seen in the model railroad press involve the number of power units that can congregate in one particular location. So a 150 foot mainline that only sees one train at a time may be part of a power district, but a roundhouse with 15 sound engines may form a power district by itself.
Actually the power blocks is basically for shorts and can be shut off like a DC block..You can isolate the shorted section by turning it off and continue operation.
Any way they want to sugarcoat under any other name its still a block since it requires a toggle switch or selector to turn this section of track on or off..
The blocks used in stagging, engine service areas, diesel houses and roundhouses is a precaution for both decoder and motor in the event of a power spike or short..
Also many keep their DC blocks when shifting from DC to DCC for those "power blocks"..
As far as having a meet between 2 trains on DC power routing switches will isolate one train as the other passes a flip of selector from cab A to Cab B and the second train can continue on its way.Of course this is very basic DC that got buried by the "experts" as they complicated DC wiring over the years.
And apparently the DCC "experts" is burying the simplicity of DCC wiring as well...
ScarpiaAnd last week's wpf post only got to 5?
Paul3Sheldon,Many people still flip toggles or turn rotary switches. ... I agree it's not a great way to run a railroad, but it's simple to understand and execute. As you know, it's been the subject of many books and magazine articles over the past 70 years or so.
P.S. The issue in the previous few posts - the power blocks people use in DCC are a totally different issue than the control blocks used in DC. Even advanced DC control systems can have power blocks too. There are also signalling blocks which are yet a different thing. Sometimes these end up being the same sections of track but logically they are serving different purposes. I think most people have gone way overboard with the DCC wiring thing. I'm in the camp that says 2 wires until I come across a situation that needs something more.
maxman BRAKIENow a hidden fact about DCC is the use of "power districts" which is no more then old fashion blocks that DCC was to do away with. I don't think this is a correct statement. They are two different things.
BRAKIENow a hidden fact about DCC is the use of "power districts" which is no more then old fashion blocks that DCC was to do away with.
I don't think this is a correct statement. They are two different things.
Same thing since both isolates sections of track..You can turn off a "power district" just like a DC block.
In fact many advance DCC'ers is using blocks to isolate locomotives in engine service areas,diesel house,roundhouse and staging tracks.
There is certainly nothing wrong with taking precautions since DCC rail is always "hot".
selector twhite...And I'd be going for top-grade decoders, which are probably a lot more than $12. Ahaaa...!! We knew you'd cave eventually, Tom. How about a photo essay of your first insallation? Oh, and Digitrax systems are waaaaay better than all the rest....waaay....
twhite...And I'd be going for top-grade decoders, which are probably a lot more than $12.
Ahaaa...!! We knew you'd cave eventually, Tom. How about a photo essay of your first insallation?
Oh, and Digitrax systems are waaaaay better than all the rest....waaay....
Crandell: Hoo-HAH!
Okay, a premise: 50 brass locos at about, say, $15-20 a pop for decoders.
Ooops! I've got to replace about 5 very smooth-running open-frame motors, don't I? Let's see, there's about another $25 a pop for NWSL cans. Or do I?
NOW--(he said, scratching his little bald head) I've got to get a SYSTEM. All the 'stuff' to convert from DC to DCC. How much are we talking about here? The basic goodies, the power thingie and the hand-held throttle(s) (are they still called 'throttles'?). Oh, and yah, I'm installing an operating semaphore system. What about THAT little devil? My turnouts are all hand-thrown and route-selective. What about them?
Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic, but I'm just kind of wondering what kind of Big Bucks it would take to convert the Yuba River sub (which is a pretty good-sized layout) to DCC.
My OP sessions are done in 'real time', not 'scale time', and the railroad is designed to run about 20 trains in a 24 hour period, somewhat like the prototype. With helpers, of course. Not much yard work, except for a weekly local. So many of my locomotives are geared so close together that I really don't need to worry about 'surge' or 'stringling' when I use rear-train helpers, so I really don't see the need to 'program' them together.
Right now, about the only reason I can see an advantage of using DCC would be to be able to cut the helpers off and run them back down the line to the terminal while the freight is still on its way. Actually, I can do that now, flipping a slider, though it's kind of a slow process (but it was that way on the prototype).
I don't want to come on like a cantankerous Old Fart (which I'm afraid I have, anyway ), but right now, except for what seems like an ENORMOUS outlay of funds, I really can't see converting to DCC. But for those that use DCC and like it, as I said in my original post, way back before the guns got fired: "Good on you."
davidmbedard Brakie, you do NOT need a programming track. You just need to program through OPs mode the new loco under it's default address (03) and go from there. You other locos are absolutely free to be running around in the background. No, you do not need power districts. Another DCC mis-nomer. They are nice to have, but by no means a necessity. David B
Brakie, you do NOT need a programming track. You just need to program through OPs mode the new loco under it's default address (03) and go from there. You other locos are absolutely free to be running around in the background.
No, you do not need power districts. Another DCC mis-nomer. They are nice to have, but by no means a necessity.
Well,so much for the DCC gurus and "experts" found on some forums and in magazines that pushes "power districts" in case of a short..
I knew when I fooled with DCC you had to have a separate programming track and many DCC"experts" still recommend such...
I've read about the decoders that can be programed on the main line but,personally wouldn't risk doing that knowing my luck.
BTW..I guess you missed my "DCC can be as simple as hooking 2 wires to the track" comment?
DJ wrote:in dc you got to do blok overkill sometimes to run 2 different trains on the same track stretch. i like momentom too and its a lot more easy to control on dcc. engines dont get hot on dcc when you keep on the momentom. -------------------------------
I never had a locomotive to overheat while using momentum on my old MRC Tech II 2500..I traded this toward a CM20 at a train show. The 2500 was probably one of the best power packs MRC made to date.
Now a locomotive would slightly overheat while using pluse power but,not enough to become overly concerned about.I used pulse power on and off for years.
As far as running 2 trains on DC you can do so without block overkill by using Atlas selectors and equalling out the blocks and passing sidings...
Now a hidden fact about DCC is the use of "power districts" which is no more then old fashion blocks that DCC was to do away with.
However,basic DCC operation can be no more then 2 wires hooked to the track with a isolated programing track-unless one wants to remove all of his/her programmed locomotives from the layout.
DCC has it place just as DC does,both gets the job done and neither is a sure answer for train control.