Although the thread has managed to last nearly 11+ pages now and stay relatively civil, it appears that the thread's usefulness has declined to a point now where there's nothing left but to take whacks and cheap shots at one another. Therefore, I'm locking this thread so that we can move on.
Remember: The MRRing "sandbox" is wide and broad enough that we can ALL choose how we want to play in it - without the need to throw sand at one another for choosing a different corner to play in.
Thanks to everyone for trying to either constructively contribute or discuss the topic at hand.
Regards,
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
BRAKIE Industrial Switching Layout. I picked the term up at a Layout Design Group I am a member of-we meet 3-4 times a year.
Industrial Switching Layout.
I picked the term up at a Layout Design Group I am a member of-we meet 3-4 times a year.
Ah! So I didn't forget. I just never knew in the first place. Makes me feel a little better today.
Thanks
Silver Pilot Silver Pilot After getting caught up on the thread there seems to be one overrriding theme amongst our friends who are using DC - they primarily run one train at a time. doctorwayne I'm certainly not against DCC, and did investigate it out of curiosity - while I may be fairly set in my ways, I find it beneficial to remain open-minded, and I'm always as eager to learn as I am to share my own limited knowledge. However, for my interests and operating scheme, I saw no benefits whatsoever: any of my locos run well in almost any combination, I almost always operate alone, and my operating scheme requires an attentive operator for every train, as almost all do some local work at the various towns along the line. While the sounds available nowadays are impressive, they're not especially appealing for me either, although I must admit that most of the time, I keep the speakers for my computer turned off, too. ATLANTIC CENTRAL OR as an option, the CTC Dispatcher can assign those routes and the Engineers just run the trains and obey the signals. From the Engineer's point of view, how is that any different than DCC? If I'm all alone, the whole railroad can be asigned to my throttle and I can go anywhere with my wireless throttle. I only run one train at a time OR have them on independent routes OR have a crew with an Engineer for each train. I have no interest in trying to operate two trains by myself on the same route. My choices, I understand they are not for everyone. Sheldon To quote some of them. That's they primary operating style, then DC works fine for them. THANKS BRAKIE! You've proved my point BRAKIE Also one doesn't need blocks on his/her layout if he/she will be running one train. If you're only running one train at a time the DC works fine. Heck why get Atlas Selectors if you're only running one train at a time or bother with blocks? To go even farther, just hook up a car battery. its 12 volts DC and then you don't even need to mess with a throttle system. But the one from the train set is probably working just fine for you.
Silver Pilot After getting caught up on the thread there seems to be one overrriding theme amongst our friends who are using DC - they primarily run one train at a time. doctorwayne I'm certainly not against DCC, and did investigate it out of curiosity - while I may be fairly set in my ways, I find it beneficial to remain open-minded, and I'm always as eager to learn as I am to share my own limited knowledge. However, for my interests and operating scheme, I saw no benefits whatsoever: any of my locos run well in almost any combination, I almost always operate alone, and my operating scheme requires an attentive operator for every train, as almost all do some local work at the various towns along the line. While the sounds available nowadays are impressive, they're not especially appealing for me either, although I must admit that most of the time, I keep the speakers for my computer turned off, too. ATLANTIC CENTRAL OR as an option, the CTC Dispatcher can assign those routes and the Engineers just run the trains and obey the signals. From the Engineer's point of view, how is that any different than DCC? If I'm all alone, the whole railroad can be asigned to my throttle and I can go anywhere with my wireless throttle. I only run one train at a time OR have them on independent routes OR have a crew with an Engineer for each train. I have no interest in trying to operate two trains by myself on the same route. My choices, I understand they are not for everyone. Sheldon To quote some of them. That's they primary operating style, then DC works fine for them.
After getting caught up on the thread there seems to be one overrriding theme amongst our friends who are using DC - they primarily run one train at a time.
doctorwayne I'm certainly not against DCC, and did investigate it out of curiosity - while I may be fairly set in my ways, I find it beneficial to remain open-minded, and I'm always as eager to learn as I am to share my own limited knowledge. However, for my interests and operating scheme, I saw no benefits whatsoever: any of my locos run well in almost any combination, I almost always operate alone, and my operating scheme requires an attentive operator for every train, as almost all do some local work at the various towns along the line. While the sounds available nowadays are impressive, they're not especially appealing for me either, although I must admit that most of the time, I keep the speakers for my computer turned off, too.
I'm certainly not against DCC, and did investigate it out of curiosity - while I may be fairly set in my ways, I find it beneficial to remain open-minded, and I'm always as eager to learn as I am to share my own limited knowledge. However, for my interests and operating scheme, I saw no benefits whatsoever: any of my locos run well in almost any combination, I almost always operate alone, and my operating scheme requires an attentive operator for every train, as almost all do some local work at the various towns along the line. While the sounds available nowadays are impressive, they're not especially appealing for me either, although I must admit that most of the time, I keep the speakers for my computer turned off, too.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL OR as an option, the CTC Dispatcher can assign those routes and the Engineers just run the trains and obey the signals. From the Engineer's point of view, how is that any different than DCC? If I'm all alone, the whole railroad can be asigned to my throttle and I can go anywhere with my wireless throttle. I only run one train at a time OR have them on independent routes OR have a crew with an Engineer for each train. I have no interest in trying to operate two trains by myself on the same route. My choices, I understand they are not for everyone. Sheldon
OR as an option, the CTC Dispatcher can assign those routes and the Engineers just run the trains and obey the signals. From the Engineer's point of view, how is that any different than DCC? If I'm all alone, the whole railroad can be asigned to my throttle and I can go anywhere with my wireless throttle.
I only run one train at a time OR have them on independent routes OR have a crew with an Engineer for each train. I have no interest in trying to operate two trains by myself on the same route.
My choices, I understand they are not for everyone.
Sheldon
To quote some of them. That's they primary operating style, then DC works fine for them.
THANKS BRAKIE! You've proved my point
BRAKIE Also one doesn't need blocks on his/her layout if he/she will be running one train.
Also one doesn't need blocks on his/her layout if he/she will be running one train.
If you're only running one train at a time the DC works fine. Heck why get Atlas Selectors if you're only running one train at a time or bother with blocks? To go even farther, just hook up a car battery. its 12 volts DC and then you don't even need to mess with a throttle system. But the one from the train set is probably working just fine for you.
Actually I hate a power pack that comes in a train set.I perfer the better packs by MRC espeically the CM20.
12 volt battery? Why not windup?
Why blocks? I usually use one in the engine service area..I would do that even if I was using DCC.
I don't understand why you DCC guys think everybody needs DCC even on a simple 1 horse ISL or small layout where no more then 1 train can be ran...
IMHO that would be overkill and a waste of hobby dollars.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
maxman BRAKIEon my type of layouts which is ISLs I've forgotten....what is/are ISL's? Thanks
BRAKIEon my type of layouts which is ISLs
I've forgotten....what is/are ISL's?
DJO BRAKIE DJ wrote:in dc you got to do blok overkill sometimes to run 2 different trains on the same track stretch. i like momentom too and its a lot more easy to control on dcc. engines dont get hot on dcc when you keep on the momentom. ------------------------------- I never had a locomotive to overheat while using momentum on my old MRC Tech II 2500..I traded this toward a CM20 at a train show. The 2500 was probably one of the best power packs MRC made to date. Now a locomotive would slightly overheat while using pluse power but,not enough to become overly concerned about.I used pulse power on and off for years. As far as running 2 trains on DC you can do so without block overkill by using Atlas selectors and equalling out the blocks and passing sidings... Now a hidden fact about DCC is the use of "power districts" which is no more then old fashion blocks that DCC was to do away with. However,basic DCC operation can be no more then 2 wires hooked to the track with a isolated programing track-unless one wants to remove all of his/her programmed locomotives from the layout. DCC has it place just as DC does,both gets the job done and neither is a sure answer for train control. good goin brakie you made my point. i dont like using atlas selectors at all. i want to run engines not track bloks. just thinking about wiring up bloks is why i got out from model trains for 8 years. power districts is an option on dcc and you dont have to have them if you dont want them. but on dc you got to set up bloks with selectors.
BRAKIE DJ wrote:in dc you got to do blok overkill sometimes to run 2 different trains on the same track stretch. i like momentom too and its a lot more easy to control on dcc. engines dont get hot on dcc when you keep on the momentom. ------------------------------- I never had a locomotive to overheat while using momentum on my old MRC Tech II 2500..I traded this toward a CM20 at a train show. The 2500 was probably one of the best power packs MRC made to date. Now a locomotive would slightly overheat while using pluse power but,not enough to become overly concerned about.I used pulse power on and off for years. As far as running 2 trains on DC you can do so without block overkill by using Atlas selectors and equalling out the blocks and passing sidings... Now a hidden fact about DCC is the use of "power districts" which is no more then old fashion blocks that DCC was to do away with. However,basic DCC operation can be no more then 2 wires hooked to the track with a isolated programing track-unless one wants to remove all of his/her programmed locomotives from the layout. DCC has it place just as DC does,both gets the job done and neither is a sure answer for train control.
DJ wrote:in dc you got to do blok overkill sometimes to run 2 different trains on the same track stretch. i like momentom too and its a lot more easy to control on dcc. engines dont get hot on dcc when you keep on the momentom. -------------------------------
I never had a locomotive to overheat while using momentum on my old MRC Tech II 2500..I traded this toward a CM20 at a train show. The 2500 was probably one of the best power packs MRC made to date.
Now a locomotive would slightly overheat while using pluse power but,not enough to become overly concerned about.I used pulse power on and off for years.
As far as running 2 trains on DC you can do so without block overkill by using Atlas selectors and equalling out the blocks and passing sidings...
Now a hidden fact about DCC is the use of "power districts" which is no more then old fashion blocks that DCC was to do away with.
However,basic DCC operation can be no more then 2 wires hooked to the track with a isolated programing track-unless one wants to remove all of his/her programmed locomotives from the layout.
DCC has it place just as DC does,both gets the job done and neither is a sure answer for train control.
DJ,Thanks for proving my point..Seems like there's a lot of modelers never understood the very basic wiring of a Atlas selector.
As I mention I have used DCC and found its ok but,not needed on my type of layouts which is ISLs..
I am not ignorant of DCC and what it can or can not do and the importance of power districts on large layouts..
What turn me off to DCC was the need to put decoders in my locomotives and then program 'em. Then address 'em every time I need to run a different loco or move a locomotive. In comparison on my basic DC ISLs all I need to do is turn on the power pack and go or slide a selector switch and go.
Silver Pilot ATLANTIC CENTRAL DJOjust my veiw but just like it was for me a lot of guys that dont want dcc coud change thier mind when they see a full fledge dcc railroad running. thats what did it for me and the guys i know. And then exactly how do you explain those of us still using DC who have been running other peoples very nice DCC layouts for years, even helping them design and build them, but still have no interest in it for ourselves? Sheldon Does the phrase "You can't teach an old dog a new trick" sound familiar?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL DJOjust my veiw but just like it was for me a lot of guys that dont want dcc coud change thier mind when they see a full fledge dcc railroad running. thats what did it for me and the guys i know. And then exactly how do you explain those of us still using DC who have been running other peoples very nice DCC layouts for years, even helping them design and build them, but still have no interest in it for ourselves? Sheldon
DJOjust my veiw but just like it was for me a lot of guys that dont want dcc coud change thier mind when they see a full fledge dcc railroad running. thats what did it for me and the guys i know.
And then exactly how do you explain those of us still using DC who have been running other peoples very nice DCC layouts for years, even helping them design and build them, but still have no interest in it for ourselves?
Does the phrase "You can't teach an old dog a new trick" sound familiar?
And then there is "If it's not broken don't fix it"
AND, "one size NEVER fits "all" "
Scarpia Andre, the real irony, of course, is that there is an actual thread entitled Debating DC vs. DCC in the electronics sub-forum that's two days old, and only a single page long......
Andre, the real irony, of course, is that there is an actual thread entitled
in the electronics sub-forum that's two days old, and only a single page long......
----and it is quite laid back isn't it?
Doesn't seem to have attracted these extra energetic types-----
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
I'm trying to model 1956, not live in it.
Silver Pilot blownout cylinder mmm---this is starting to sound a little like converting people from one church to another church-- ***leaves, scratching his head in puzzlement*** Barry - Thank you for your insightful comments in this thread. They've really added a lot to conversation. Now please go back the Diner where things are not so confusing to you and take a booth in the back.
blownout cylinder mmm---this is starting to sound a little like converting people from one church to another church-- ***leaves, scratching his head in puzzlement***
mmm---this is starting to sound a little like converting people from one church to another church--
***leaves, scratching his head in puzzlement***
Barry - Thank you for your insightful comments in this thread. They've really added a lot to conversation. Now please go back the Diner where things are not so confusing to you and take a booth in the back.
Just when you think everyone's bladder is empty and the urination derby is over.....
OK people, who made the beer run?
You realize of course, that a beer run disqualifies all contestants. You're not allowed to re-load.
Andre
I have even recommened DCC to other modelers on this forum and elsewhere, but still don't need or want it myself.
Phoebe Vet In the name of full disclosure, I am on the DCC lover's side of the argument. But now I would like to add one last entry. There have been 146 posts in this thread. Everyone who has changed their mind as a result of anything that has been posted here please raise your hand. I just want to see if we're making any progress, or just spitting on each other.
In the name of full disclosure, I am on the DCC lover's side of the argument.
But now I would like to add one last entry. There have been 146 posts in this thread. Everyone who has changed their mind as a result of anything that has been posted here please raise your hand.
I just want to see if we're making any progress, or just spitting on each other.
just my veiw but just like it was for me a lot of guys that dont want dcc coud change thier mind when they see a full fledge dcc railroad running. thats what did it for me and the guys i know.
davidmbedardDavid, I guess I might liken it to your vocal teacher asking you to sing "Vesti la giubba " from Leoncavallo's Pagliacci in your first lesson...and expect you to know exactly how to correctly interpret and perform it the first time through. Daunting? You bet. Tom No, vocal teachers do NOT teach interpretation...that is what a "Coach" is for. Vocal teachers teach singing techniques (but, of course you knew that).
David, I guess I might liken it to your vocal teacher asking you to sing "Vesti la giubba " from Leoncavallo's Pagliacci in your first lesson...and expect you to know exactly how to correctly interpret and perform it the first time through. Daunting? You bet. Tom
David, I guess I might liken it to your vocal teacher asking you to sing "Vesti la giubba " from Leoncavallo's Pagliacci in your first lesson...and expect you to know exactly how to correctly interpret and perform it the first time through. Daunting? You bet.
No, vocal teachers do NOT teach interpretation...that is what a "Coach" is for. Vocal teachers teach singing techniques (but, of course you knew that).
David,
Yea, I guess should have remembered that. Most brass teachers I know do both in a lesson.
Anyhow, sorry for going OT slightly, everyone. Back to the topic at hand.
twhite,Open frame motors work just fine with DCC (see Athearn BB & RTR's). The only thing you have to watch for is too many amps. Most decoders have a 1 amp continuous rating with a 1.5 amp peak rating before they get damaged. As long as your brass locos don't pull an amp (and I've never seen an HO one do that), they it will be fine. AFAIK, no DC70-clone pulls more than an amp.
BTW, the idea that the motor has to isolated from the frame is a misnomer. The actual idea is that one needs to isolate the motor brushes from the rail pick up. If each motor brush has a seperate wire going to it from the frame and the tender drawbar, then you don't have to do much. Just snip the wires and now your motor is isolated from the frame even if there's a big screw from the frame into the motor housing. The brush is the main thing. Isolate them, connect the orange and gray wires from the decoder to them, and connect the red and black wires to the track pick up, and you are done (all lights are optional).
For a DCC system for your situation, I would recommend a Digitrax system due to their dual cab equipped DT-series throttles. They are perfect for running your own helpers as both can be controlled at the same time. If you can afford it, I also recommend a radio throttle because it can really change how you both operate and view your layout (I don't know what you're using now). The best Digitrax radio system is the Super Chief Xtra Duplex Radio, available in 5 or 8 amps (5 amps is plenty) and can run up to 120 trains. The Super Empire Builder Xtra Duplex Radio can run 25 trains at once, and is a 5 amp system...but it can't read decoders. The Zephyr is a 2.5 amp system that can run 10 trains and can read decoders. Still more than enough for you, but the pricing favors some of the bigger systems once you start adding throttles and a radio. See this: http://www.tonystrains.com/products/digitrax_stsets.htm for the complete listing of Digitrax starter sets.
In any event, it would be around $500 for a DCC radio system from Digitrax. The minimum would be a Zephyr ($160). Add a DT402 throttle (tethered) for $150.
NCE makes a good starter set, too, in the PowerCab. But it doesn't have the dual control knobs that a good helper district needs (IMHO).
Paul A. Cutler III
ATLANTIC CENTRALhowmus, you are a little off base here and need re-read this thread. I don't use the Aristo system with the onboard receivers, I use the trackside Train Engineer throttles and an advance form of cab control based on MZL control.
Ah.... Mea Culpa! My bad. I made an assumption you were talking about the HOTE based on my own experience. I forget they make the other controllers. My apologies Sheldon.
I will still flatly say that each of us has every right to use whatever system for train control they wish! I will also say That I wouldn't trade my DCC system for any other system out there. I know several people living near me who have in the last year or so installed DCC on their layouts. For each it was a retrofit. What do they say? Well lets just say you can't get the .............. grin off their faces. They love DCC having now made the switch. That said, I could care less what any of you use. If it suits your needs and runs your layout as you want to run it, good for you. For those wondering about DCC and looking for something to "upgrade" (for want of a better word) their system. I have no hesitation recommending DCC!
73
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
Silver Pilot Change happens slowly. I know of one rather prominent modeler who swore that he would never go DCC. He listed many of the same reasons way he would not change - Too costly, too many locomotives to convert, it wasn't need for his operational plans, DC worked just fine for him, not interested in sound, etc. Then he ran on a layout with DCC, Tsunami equipped steam locos and a wireless system. When he moved because of a job change and started to build a new layout now it was going to be DCC, only sound engines, he decided to change modeling eras and sell off his collection of highly detailed and weathered diesels and change to steam. Everyone ribbed about his sudden conversion to DCC after vocally swearing off of it for years. He saw the light after see what DCC had to offer in terms of superior sound, control, ease of wiring and operating potential compared to his DC layout. Change can happen, sometimes it just takes a bigger hammer.
Change happens slowly.
I know of one rather prominent modeler who swore that he would never go DCC. He listed many of the same reasons way he would not change - Too costly, too many locomotives to convert, it wasn't need for his operational plans, DC worked just fine for him, not interested in sound, etc. Then he ran on a layout with DCC, Tsunami equipped steam locos and a wireless system. When he moved because of a job change and started to build a new layout now it was going to be DCC, only sound engines, he decided to change modeling eras and sell off his collection of highly detailed and weathered diesels and change to steam. Everyone ribbed about his sudden conversion to DCC after vocally swearing off of it for years. He saw the light after see what DCC had to offer in terms of superior sound, control, ease of wiring and operating potential compared to his DC layout. Change can happen, sometimes it just takes a bigger hammer.
Like that prominent modeler; cost, loco conversion, operating plans, sound - are all reasons I have no interest in DCC. Like that prominent modeler, if I move, and add sound, and change era's (which requires a locomotive sell-off), or change operating plans, I'll look into it.
Generally, I don't enjoy looking at old pictures or reading books about the hey day of railroading and want to copy that era in my layout. Many folks actually remember that type of prototype railroading and want to model that. That's great. I like modeling what I can see now and adding my own freelanced modeler's license to it.
Modern protoype railroading is pretty much about two types of railroading, unit trains pulled by six axle wide cabs, or, soon to be abandoned branch lines or short lines that exist to serve a major customer located some miles away, and happen to serve smaller customers along the way. The latter is more interesting to me. It also happens to be one-train-at-a-time operations, albeit slightly different trains each time depending upon which customers will be served when.
I've never conquered the biggest challenge that exists in model railroading, the lack of sufficient space; or successfully executing the concept of selective compression. I've now got about 400 square feet to run my one train Herbert set up, and I find that it still doesn't provide enough space between customers, to my eyes. But, I find it still to be more realistic than trying to cram 1954 Pennsy mainline operations, complete with staging and an engine terminal, in a spare bedroom. That type of plan supports DCC better.
IMO, my space only supports, as someone has said, the One-Train-Herbert concept. And I probably have more space than most. Others may have a tolerance for having stuff crammed together, or have different priorities, which allows them to get the full benefit of the DCC investment.
Now, now, guys and gals, lets not get really crazy and start debating which type of operating concept is "better".
BTW, regarding Lance Mindheim's small Miami based CSX layout, is it DCC? I think it is, but why I don't know. Is there ever a real need to have more than one locomotive on it at a time?
Doug
- Douglas
Silver PilotSheldon, based on the estimates of currents costs or the costs you provided there's around $150 in parts in just the relays (18@$5), boards (2@$20) and lighted pushbuttons (12@$2). That doesn't count the barrier strips, spade connectors and all the wire. And how many panels like that would you have? Sounds like it gets pricey quick. Add in $240 or so for each of the 4 cabs ( it does show 4 cabs correct?) and it does add up.
A few simple points:
I never said what I do was less expensive than DCC - UNTIL you add in signaling, CTC dispatching, and one button route control of turnouts.
$240 is the retail price of the TE, none of you are paying retail for DCC stuff, I did not pay retail for my Train Engineers. Yes the layout shown has 4 mainline throttles and two additional ones for a branch line.
My layout has eight of them. When purchased for both layouts, we paid $140 plus $20 each for power supplies.
Silver PilotI'll repeat myself and say the biggest area where DC can not compete with DCC is in yard operations and engine terminal operations. The ability to have a train enter the yard, cut off its engines and have the engineer run them to the servicing facility while a yard engine pulls the caboose off the rear of the train and places it on the caboose track for servicing while a second yard engine starts to pull the string of cars out for sorting. All this without pushing buttons to assign power, flipping toggles or sliding Atlas selectors is where DCC really stands out.
Agreed, but the way my yard is designed with automatic power routing, I actually can do that just like DCC and there are only four buttons to push ever, depending desired yard movements. Two engineers can work the yard/engine terminal with very little conflict and virtually no button pushing (since there are no toggles), but I will admit, there are a few kill switches in the engine storage tracks of the engine terminal.
I have said all along, for years now on this subject, that if I was building a different type, theme, scale scope, whatever, whatever, that I may well use DCC.
In fact if my layout was smaller, or my scale bigger, or I was modeling something like the Ma & Pa, I would use DCC. The lack of need for CTC or signals, the small nature of trackage, short trains, etc, would all lend its self to the features of DCC. In fact I recommend DCC to modelers all the time based on THEIR goal set.
I know myself pretty well, unlike your friend, it is beyond unlikely that I will change my modeling goals/interests at least until I finish the set of goals currently in place. That will likely require the rest of my life. I know my own nature. I use to be well rounded until I found out what I really like.
howmus... put a simple Bus around the layout with track feeds in logical places and started to use DCC.
... put a simple Bus around the layout with track feeds in logical places and started to use DCC.
That's what I am doing also.
This has been a fascinating discussion and pretty civil. I really enjoyed some of the pictures showing all that wiring that I won't be doing. Fortunately, the Maryland and Pennsylvania RR in 1953 was "dark" - no signals or CTC.
With wireless and manual throwing of switches, my current layout using DCC is pretty close to a two wire hookup. I have just a 2 wire bus around the layout with feeders to the track. At 14x23 ft one command station/booster is enough as is one radio base station and one power supply all located together. I don't even use the one cab bus panel and cab bus wire that was included in the system I bought, just plug the radio base station into the command/booster station.
My retirement layout will be a little more complicated since it will require another 3 boosters and a couple of radio repeater stations - still pretty simple.
The sound is a bonus, but I love it. I also plan to have less than 20 locomotives so decoder cost isn't a major issue.
Enjoy
Paul
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
DavidM - in going back through the thread I saw your Flame War warning on page 3. Since that hasn't occurred and we're on page 10, don't you think the warning can be removed? It's sort of like a T-Storm warning; once the threat has passed the warning is canceled.
Commenting in general on the thread, the tone of discussion has remained civil and cordial, especially since we lost a few of the early commentors. The only real post that I saw that was out of line was Crandell's when he made his comment about Digitrax being better than the rest. IMO that comment was totally uncalled for. It seemed like he was trying to start the flame war by throwing the lit match into the gasoline, or should I say petrol since he's a Canadian. Up until that time the conversation had never focused on a specific DCC system or one system being better than the other, it had to do with the virtues of DC control vs. DCC control and how the system can be used to operate a layout. I just thought it was cheap shot and an attempt to get the thread locked up, smileys or not. My opinion.
As I get cuaght back up on the happennings in this thread, a few comments come to mind.
First, based on my own very limited experience in installing a decoder in an 'older' steam locomotive. It was very easy and very simple to install a basic decoder in my 1977 Sunset 4-6-4. Located the decoder in the boiler and wired the pick ups to it and the motor leads to the motor. DONE! No changing motors, no isolating anything. Without tinkering it runs nice and smooth at slow speeds. So on that topic, my experience was it was easy, easier than many of the diesels I've done. Difficulty will depend on the specific loco.
Sheldon, based on the estimates of currents costs or the costs you provided there's around $150 in parts in just the relays (18@$5), boards (2@$20) and lighted pushbuttons (12@$2). That doesn't count the barrier strips, spade connectors and all the wire. And how many panels like that would you have? Sounds like it gets pricey quick. Add in $240 or so for each of the 4 cabs ( it does show 4 cabs correct?) and it does add up.
I have to agree with Paul3 regarding the Atlas components comment about showing the level of being serious about this hobby, so call me a snob too. Are they functional - yes; Are there better ways to do things - absolutely.
I'll repeat myself and say the biggest area where DC can not compete with DCC is in yard operations and engine terminal operations. The ability to have a train enter the yard, cut off its engines and have the engineer run them to the servicing facility while a yard engine pulls the caboose off the rear of the train and places it on the caboose track for servicing while a second yard engine starts to pull the string of cars out for sorting. All this without pushing buttons to assign power, flipping toggles or sliding Atlas selectors is where DCC really stands out.
howmus ATLANTIC CENTRALThe Aristo Train Engineer is currently $240 retail, they can be had for a lot less. When I, and the owner of the layout shown, bought them, we paid and average of $140, and use a $20 power supply for each one. Yep that is $240 for each throttle. Want to run more than one train and have more than one guy running them...? Don't forget each loco has to have a $37 (retail) receiver installed in it. The advertising used to (back when I wasted over $500 on that system) say it would fit in most HO locomotives. Yeah right! I basically ruined a tender trying to figure what to cut out of it be able to squeeze that monster in there.... Don't think I could get it into any of my steam locomotives..... And in the end between having the 5' long antenna from the controller getting caught on everything in the room and the fact that the loco still couldn't be made to work correctly I finally took it all out and stuck it in a closet. I then, since I wanted to relay track anyway, tore out the heap of wiring for DC along with about a hundred toggles and put a simple Bus around the layout with track feeds in logical places and started to use DCC. Since I don't like HO sound, and don't need a lot of other bells and whistles, each loco gets a simple NCE decoder that goes for less than $20. You guys can do whatever pleases you. It is, after all, your layout and your hobby. As for me I love DCC and would never ever go back!
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe Aristo Train Engineer is currently $240 retail, they can be had for a lot less. When I, and the owner of the layout shown, bought them, we paid and average of $140, and use a $20 power supply for each one.
Yep that is $240 for each throttle. Want to run more than one train and have more than one guy running them...? Don't forget each loco has to have a $37 (retail) receiver installed in it. The advertising used to (back when I wasted over $500 on that system) say it would fit in most HO locomotives. Yeah right! I basically ruined a tender trying to figure what to cut out of it be able to squeeze that monster in there.... Don't think I could get it into any of my steam locomotives..... And in the end between having the 5' long antenna from the controller getting caught on everything in the room and the fact that the loco still couldn't be made to work correctly I finally took it all out and stuck it in a closet. I then, since I wanted to relay track anyway, tore out the heap of wiring for DC along with about a hundred toggles and put a simple Bus around the layout with track feeds in logical places and started to use DCC. Since I don't like HO sound, and don't need a lot of other bells and whistles, each loco gets a simple NCE decoder that goes for less than $20.
You guys can do whatever pleases you. It is, after all, your layout and your hobby. As for me I love DCC and would never ever go back!
howmus, you are a little off base here and need re-read this thread. I don't use the Aristo system with the onboard receivers, I use the trackside Train Engineer throttles and an advance form of cab control based on MZL control.
There are no receivers in my locos, but signaling, walk around control, CTC control, collision avoidence, automatic stopping, and more are all intergrated into my cab selection and turnout control system.
The layout will easily handle 8-10 trains at the same time.
My Aristo hand helds have 4" antennas that still provide 75' of range that has never failed.
maxman tomikawaTTMaxman, I don't know where you got your DC control impressions. I guess you don't get out much. At the club I belong to, the railroad is divided up into sections. It is basically a point to point railroad. At areas where two trains would pass each other, we have built control panels. So the member standing there operating the trains is sort of looking at a minature tower panel. We have Dallee hand held DC throttles that do indeed have the direction changing toggle switch of which you are familiar. The Dallee connects to this panel by way of a four pin plug (two for power in, and two for power out). The panels were built with two locations where the Dallees could be connected, so a dexterous individual could operate with two of the hand sets. Or two people could operate independently. The DP/DT toggles "in the track lines of the panel" throw the track power to one handset or to the other. All of this was setup to allow more of the clubmembers to participate during open house events, and was a far better method than the previous arrangement where two guys would operate the railroad from a central control panel back by the boiler where you couldn't see anything because the scenery and people's heads were in the way. Yes, I suppose that there are arrangements where the "blocks" as I call them could have had their power assigned by a central dispatcher using a rotary switch or one of Mr. Electrical Guru's relay nightmares. But this would have required the engineer to walk around with his train to plug in whatever he had to use that contained his reversing switch and rheostat, a luxury we didn't have when the crowds came to visit. And all of this was done before DCC was invented, so that was not an option. This system has been in place at least 20 years, and was the best we could come up with given our particular set of circumstances. So that, sir, is where I get my DC control impressions.
tomikawaTTMaxman, I don't know where you got your DC control impressions.
I guess you don't get out much. At the club I belong to, the railroad is divided up into sections. It is basically a point to point railroad. At areas where two trains would pass each other, we have built control panels. So the member standing there operating the trains is sort of looking at a minature tower panel. We have Dallee hand held DC throttles that do indeed have the direction changing toggle switch of which you are familiar.
The Dallee connects to this panel by way of a four pin plug (two for power in, and two for power out). The panels were built with two locations where the Dallees could be connected, so a dexterous individual could operate with two of the hand sets. Or two people could operate independently. The DP/DT toggles "in the track lines of the panel" throw the track power to one handset or to the other.
All of this was setup to allow more of the clubmembers to participate during open house events, and was a far better method than the previous arrangement where two guys would operate the railroad from a central control panel back by the boiler where you couldn't see anything because the scenery and people's heads were in the way.
Yes, I suppose that there are arrangements where the "blocks" as I call them could have had their power assigned by a central dispatcher using a rotary switch or one of Mr. Electrical Guru's relay nightmares. But this would have required the engineer to walk around with his train to plug in whatever he had to use that contained his reversing switch and rheostat, a luxury we didn't have when the crowds came to visit.
And all of this was done before DCC was invented, so that was not an option.
This system has been in place at least 20 years, and was the best we could come up with given our particular set of circumstances.
So that, sir, is where I get my DC control impressions.
My apologies! I was under the impression that the DPDTs were for directional control...
Since I use common rail, I would use SPSTs for that purpose if I was still in full 2-cab mode.
In my case, cab assignments (or pass-through connections) are made at the passing siding's two tracks. The single tracks to either side are powered through the point actuators, so the effective electrical section is actually two (or three) 'blocks,' only one of which is directly connected to track power. Thanks to that pass-through capability, the engineer of a specific train usually controls it from the vicinity of the zone panel controlling the trackage where he will have to stop running and do something else - "Something else," being anything from a crew change to terminating and disassembling a local freight. (The one mandatory stop location is a division point.)
I mentioned setting up an orbit by positioning six rotary switches. Five of them would be set to pass-through. Only one would actually be set to a specific train controller. The orbiting train would, of necessity, be diesel powered - either a DMU set or a 'normal' train with a diesel-hydraulic locomotive.
{Incidentally, I'm not, "Sir." I'm just a Master Sergeant.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)