Although the thread has managed to last nearly 11+ pages now and stay relatively civil, it appears that the thread's usefulness has declined to a point now where there's nothing left but to take whacks and cheap shots at one another. Therefore, I'm locking this thread so that we can move on.
Remember: The MRRing "sandbox" is wide and broad enough that we can ALL choose how we want to play in it - without the need to throw sand at one another for choosing a different corner to play in.
Thanks to everyone for trying to either constructively contribute or discuss the topic at hand.
Regards,
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
BRAKIE Industrial Switching Layout. I picked the term up at a Layout Design Group I am a member of-we meet 3-4 times a year.
Industrial Switching Layout.
I picked the term up at a Layout Design Group I am a member of-we meet 3-4 times a year.
Ah! So I didn't forget. I just never knew in the first place. Makes me feel a little better today.
Thanks
Silver Pilot Silver Pilot After getting caught up on the thread there seems to be one overrriding theme amongst our friends who are using DC - they primarily run one train at a time. doctorwayne I'm certainly not against DCC, and did investigate it out of curiosity - while I may be fairly set in my ways, I find it beneficial to remain open-minded, and I'm always as eager to learn as I am to share my own limited knowledge. However, for my interests and operating scheme, I saw no benefits whatsoever: any of my locos run well in almost any combination, I almost always operate alone, and my operating scheme requires an attentive operator for every train, as almost all do some local work at the various towns along the line. While the sounds available nowadays are impressive, they're not especially appealing for me either, although I must admit that most of the time, I keep the speakers for my computer turned off, too. ATLANTIC CENTRAL OR as an option, the CTC Dispatcher can assign those routes and the Engineers just run the trains and obey the signals. From the Engineer's point of view, how is that any different than DCC? If I'm all alone, the whole railroad can be asigned to my throttle and I can go anywhere with my wireless throttle. I only run one train at a time OR have them on independent routes OR have a crew with an Engineer for each train. I have no interest in trying to operate two trains by myself on the same route. My choices, I understand they are not for everyone. Sheldon To quote some of them. That's they primary operating style, then DC works fine for them. THANKS BRAKIE! You've proved my point BRAKIE Also one doesn't need blocks on his/her layout if he/she will be running one train. If you're only running one train at a time the DC works fine. Heck why get Atlas Selectors if you're only running one train at a time or bother with blocks? To go even farther, just hook up a car battery. its 12 volts DC and then you don't even need to mess with a throttle system. But the one from the train set is probably working just fine for you.
Silver Pilot After getting caught up on the thread there seems to be one overrriding theme amongst our friends who are using DC - they primarily run one train at a time. doctorwayne I'm certainly not against DCC, and did investigate it out of curiosity - while I may be fairly set in my ways, I find it beneficial to remain open-minded, and I'm always as eager to learn as I am to share my own limited knowledge. However, for my interests and operating scheme, I saw no benefits whatsoever: any of my locos run well in almost any combination, I almost always operate alone, and my operating scheme requires an attentive operator for every train, as almost all do some local work at the various towns along the line. While the sounds available nowadays are impressive, they're not especially appealing for me either, although I must admit that most of the time, I keep the speakers for my computer turned off, too. ATLANTIC CENTRAL OR as an option, the CTC Dispatcher can assign those routes and the Engineers just run the trains and obey the signals. From the Engineer's point of view, how is that any different than DCC? If I'm all alone, the whole railroad can be asigned to my throttle and I can go anywhere with my wireless throttle. I only run one train at a time OR have them on independent routes OR have a crew with an Engineer for each train. I have no interest in trying to operate two trains by myself on the same route. My choices, I understand they are not for everyone. Sheldon To quote some of them. That's they primary operating style, then DC works fine for them.
After getting caught up on the thread there seems to be one overrriding theme amongst our friends who are using DC - they primarily run one train at a time.
doctorwayne I'm certainly not against DCC, and did investigate it out of curiosity - while I may be fairly set in my ways, I find it beneficial to remain open-minded, and I'm always as eager to learn as I am to share my own limited knowledge. However, for my interests and operating scheme, I saw no benefits whatsoever: any of my locos run well in almost any combination, I almost always operate alone, and my operating scheme requires an attentive operator for every train, as almost all do some local work at the various towns along the line. While the sounds available nowadays are impressive, they're not especially appealing for me either, although I must admit that most of the time, I keep the speakers for my computer turned off, too.
I'm certainly not against DCC, and did investigate it out of curiosity - while I may be fairly set in my ways, I find it beneficial to remain open-minded, and I'm always as eager to learn as I am to share my own limited knowledge. However, for my interests and operating scheme, I saw no benefits whatsoever: any of my locos run well in almost any combination, I almost always operate alone, and my operating scheme requires an attentive operator for every train, as almost all do some local work at the various towns along the line. While the sounds available nowadays are impressive, they're not especially appealing for me either, although I must admit that most of the time, I keep the speakers for my computer turned off, too.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL OR as an option, the CTC Dispatcher can assign those routes and the Engineers just run the trains and obey the signals. From the Engineer's point of view, how is that any different than DCC? If I'm all alone, the whole railroad can be asigned to my throttle and I can go anywhere with my wireless throttle. I only run one train at a time OR have them on independent routes OR have a crew with an Engineer for each train. I have no interest in trying to operate two trains by myself on the same route. My choices, I understand they are not for everyone. Sheldon
OR as an option, the CTC Dispatcher can assign those routes and the Engineers just run the trains and obey the signals. From the Engineer's point of view, how is that any different than DCC? If I'm all alone, the whole railroad can be asigned to my throttle and I can go anywhere with my wireless throttle.
I only run one train at a time OR have them on independent routes OR have a crew with an Engineer for each train. I have no interest in trying to operate two trains by myself on the same route.
My choices, I understand they are not for everyone.
Sheldon
To quote some of them. That's they primary operating style, then DC works fine for them.
THANKS BRAKIE! You've proved my point
BRAKIE Also one doesn't need blocks on his/her layout if he/she will be running one train.
Also one doesn't need blocks on his/her layout if he/she will be running one train.
If you're only running one train at a time the DC works fine. Heck why get Atlas Selectors if you're only running one train at a time or bother with blocks? To go even farther, just hook up a car battery. its 12 volts DC and then you don't even need to mess with a throttle system. But the one from the train set is probably working just fine for you.
Actually I hate a power pack that comes in a train set.I perfer the better packs by MRC espeically the CM20.
12 volt battery? Why not windup?
Why blocks? I usually use one in the engine service area..I would do that even if I was using DCC.
I don't understand why you DCC guys think everybody needs DCC even on a simple 1 horse ISL or small layout where no more then 1 train can be ran...
IMHO that would be overkill and a waste of hobby dollars.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
maxman BRAKIEon my type of layouts which is ISLs I've forgotten....what is/are ISL's? Thanks
BRAKIEon my type of layouts which is ISLs
I've forgotten....what is/are ISL's?
DJO BRAKIE DJ wrote:in dc you got to do blok overkill sometimes to run 2 different trains on the same track stretch. i like momentom too and its a lot more easy to control on dcc. engines dont get hot on dcc when you keep on the momentom. ------------------------------- I never had a locomotive to overheat while using momentum on my old MRC Tech II 2500..I traded this toward a CM20 at a train show. The 2500 was probably one of the best power packs MRC made to date. Now a locomotive would slightly overheat while using pluse power but,not enough to become overly concerned about.I used pulse power on and off for years. As far as running 2 trains on DC you can do so without block overkill by using Atlas selectors and equalling out the blocks and passing sidings... Now a hidden fact about DCC is the use of "power districts" which is no more then old fashion blocks that DCC was to do away with. However,basic DCC operation can be no more then 2 wires hooked to the track with a isolated programing track-unless one wants to remove all of his/her programmed locomotives from the layout. DCC has it place just as DC does,both gets the job done and neither is a sure answer for train control. good goin brakie you made my point. i dont like using atlas selectors at all. i want to run engines not track bloks. just thinking about wiring up bloks is why i got out from model trains for 8 years. power districts is an option on dcc and you dont have to have them if you dont want them. but on dc you got to set up bloks with selectors.
BRAKIE DJ wrote:in dc you got to do blok overkill sometimes to run 2 different trains on the same track stretch. i like momentom too and its a lot more easy to control on dcc. engines dont get hot on dcc when you keep on the momentom. ------------------------------- I never had a locomotive to overheat while using momentum on my old MRC Tech II 2500..I traded this toward a CM20 at a train show. The 2500 was probably one of the best power packs MRC made to date. Now a locomotive would slightly overheat while using pluse power but,not enough to become overly concerned about.I used pulse power on and off for years. As far as running 2 trains on DC you can do so without block overkill by using Atlas selectors and equalling out the blocks and passing sidings... Now a hidden fact about DCC is the use of "power districts" which is no more then old fashion blocks that DCC was to do away with. However,basic DCC operation can be no more then 2 wires hooked to the track with a isolated programing track-unless one wants to remove all of his/her programmed locomotives from the layout. DCC has it place just as DC does,both gets the job done and neither is a sure answer for train control.
DJ wrote:in dc you got to do blok overkill sometimes to run 2 different trains on the same track stretch. i like momentom too and its a lot more easy to control on dcc. engines dont get hot on dcc when you keep on the momentom. -------------------------------
I never had a locomotive to overheat while using momentum on my old MRC Tech II 2500..I traded this toward a CM20 at a train show. The 2500 was probably one of the best power packs MRC made to date.
Now a locomotive would slightly overheat while using pluse power but,not enough to become overly concerned about.I used pulse power on and off for years.
As far as running 2 trains on DC you can do so without block overkill by using Atlas selectors and equalling out the blocks and passing sidings...
Now a hidden fact about DCC is the use of "power districts" which is no more then old fashion blocks that DCC was to do away with.
However,basic DCC operation can be no more then 2 wires hooked to the track with a isolated programing track-unless one wants to remove all of his/her programmed locomotives from the layout.
DCC has it place just as DC does,both gets the job done and neither is a sure answer for train control.
DJ,Thanks for proving my point..Seems like there's a lot of modelers never understood the very basic wiring of a Atlas selector.
As I mention I have used DCC and found its ok but,not needed on my type of layouts which is ISLs..
I am not ignorant of DCC and what it can or can not do and the importance of power districts on large layouts..
What turn me off to DCC was the need to put decoders in my locomotives and then program 'em. Then address 'em every time I need to run a different loco or move a locomotive. In comparison on my basic DC ISLs all I need to do is turn on the power pack and go or slide a selector switch and go.
Silver Pilot ATLANTIC CENTRAL DJOjust my veiw but just like it was for me a lot of guys that dont want dcc coud change thier mind when they see a full fledge dcc railroad running. thats what did it for me and the guys i know. And then exactly how do you explain those of us still using DC who have been running other peoples very nice DCC layouts for years, even helping them design and build them, but still have no interest in it for ourselves? Sheldon Does the phrase "You can't teach an old dog a new trick" sound familiar?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL DJOjust my veiw but just like it was for me a lot of guys that dont want dcc coud change thier mind when they see a full fledge dcc railroad running. thats what did it for me and the guys i know. And then exactly how do you explain those of us still using DC who have been running other peoples very nice DCC layouts for years, even helping them design and build them, but still have no interest in it for ourselves? Sheldon
DJOjust my veiw but just like it was for me a lot of guys that dont want dcc coud change thier mind when they see a full fledge dcc railroad running. thats what did it for me and the guys i know.
And then exactly how do you explain those of us still using DC who have been running other peoples very nice DCC layouts for years, even helping them design and build them, but still have no interest in it for ourselves?
Does the phrase "You can't teach an old dog a new trick" sound familiar?
And then there is "If it's not broken don't fix it"
AND, "one size NEVER fits "all" "
Scarpia Andre, the real irony, of course, is that there is an actual thread entitled Debating DC vs. DCC in the electronics sub-forum that's two days old, and only a single page long......
Andre, the real irony, of course, is that there is an actual thread entitled
in the electronics sub-forum that's two days old, and only a single page long......
----and it is quite laid back isn't it?
Doesn't seem to have attracted these extra energetic types-----
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
I'm trying to model 1956, not live in it.
Silver Pilot blownout cylinder mmm---this is starting to sound a little like converting people from one church to another church-- ***leaves, scratching his head in puzzlement*** Barry - Thank you for your insightful comments in this thread. They've really added a lot to conversation. Now please go back the Diner where things are not so confusing to you and take a booth in the back.
blownout cylinder mmm---this is starting to sound a little like converting people from one church to another church-- ***leaves, scratching his head in puzzlement***
mmm---this is starting to sound a little like converting people from one church to another church--
***leaves, scratching his head in puzzlement***
Barry - Thank you for your insightful comments in this thread. They've really added a lot to conversation. Now please go back the Diner where things are not so confusing to you and take a booth in the back.
Just when you think everyone's bladder is empty and the urination derby is over.....
OK people, who made the beer run?
You realize of course, that a beer run disqualifies all contestants. You're not allowed to re-load.
Andre
I have even recommened DCC to other modelers on this forum and elsewhere, but still don't need or want it myself.
Phoebe Vet In the name of full disclosure, I am on the DCC lover's side of the argument. But now I would like to add one last entry. There have been 146 posts in this thread. Everyone who has changed their mind as a result of anything that has been posted here please raise your hand. I just want to see if we're making any progress, or just spitting on each other.
In the name of full disclosure, I am on the DCC lover's side of the argument.
But now I would like to add one last entry. There have been 146 posts in this thread. Everyone who has changed their mind as a result of anything that has been posted here please raise your hand.
I just want to see if we're making any progress, or just spitting on each other.
just my veiw but just like it was for me a lot of guys that dont want dcc coud change thier mind when they see a full fledge dcc railroad running. thats what did it for me and the guys i know.
davidmbedardDavid, I guess I might liken it to your vocal teacher asking you to sing "Vesti la giubba " from Leoncavallo's Pagliacci in your first lesson...and expect you to know exactly how to correctly interpret and perform it the first time through. Daunting? You bet. Tom No, vocal teachers do NOT teach interpretation...that is what a "Coach" is for. Vocal teachers teach singing techniques (but, of course you knew that).
David, I guess I might liken it to your vocal teacher asking you to sing "Vesti la giubba " from Leoncavallo's Pagliacci in your first lesson...and expect you to know exactly how to correctly interpret and perform it the first time through. Daunting? You bet. Tom
David, I guess I might liken it to your vocal teacher asking you to sing "Vesti la giubba " from Leoncavallo's Pagliacci in your first lesson...and expect you to know exactly how to correctly interpret and perform it the first time through. Daunting? You bet.
No, vocal teachers do NOT teach interpretation...that is what a "Coach" is for. Vocal teachers teach singing techniques (but, of course you knew that).
David,
Yea, I guess should have remembered that. Most brass teachers I know do both in a lesson.
Anyhow, sorry for going OT slightly, everyone. Back to the topic at hand.
twhite,Open frame motors work just fine with DCC (see Athearn BB & RTR's). The only thing you have to watch for is too many amps. Most decoders have a 1 amp continuous rating with a 1.5 amp peak rating before they get damaged. As long as your brass locos don't pull an amp (and I've never seen an HO one do that), they it will be fine. AFAIK, no DC70-clone pulls more than an amp.
BTW, the idea that the motor has to isolated from the frame is a misnomer. The actual idea is that one needs to isolate the motor brushes from the rail pick up. If each motor brush has a seperate wire going to it from the frame and the tender drawbar, then you don't have to do much. Just snip the wires and now your motor is isolated from the frame even if there's a big screw from the frame into the motor housing. The brush is the main thing. Isolate them, connect the orange and gray wires from the decoder to them, and connect the red and black wires to the track pick up, and you are done (all lights are optional).
For a DCC system for your situation, I would recommend a Digitrax system due to their dual cab equipped DT-series throttles. They are perfect for running your own helpers as both can be controlled at the same time. If you can afford it, I also recommend a radio throttle because it can really change how you both operate and view your layout (I don't know what you're using now). The best Digitrax radio system is the Super Chief Xtra Duplex Radio, available in 5 or 8 amps (5 amps is plenty) and can run up to 120 trains. The Super Empire Builder Xtra Duplex Radio can run 25 trains at once, and is a 5 amp system...but it can't read decoders. The Zephyr is a 2.5 amp system that can run 10 trains and can read decoders. Still more than enough for you, but the pricing favors some of the bigger systems once you start adding throttles and a radio. See this: http://www.tonystrains.com/products/digitrax_stsets.htm for the complete listing of Digitrax starter sets.
In any event, it would be around $500 for a DCC radio system from Digitrax. The minimum would be a Zephyr ($160). Add a DT402 throttle (tethered) for $150.
NCE makes a good starter set, too, in the PowerCab. But it doesn't have the dual control knobs that a good helper district needs (IMHO).
Paul A. Cutler III
ATLANTIC CENTRALhowmus, you are a little off base here and need re-read this thread. I don't use the Aristo system with the onboard receivers, I use the trackside Train Engineer throttles and an advance form of cab control based on MZL control.
Ah.... Mea Culpa! My bad. I made an assumption you were talking about the HOTE based on my own experience. I forget they make the other controllers. My apologies Sheldon.
I will still flatly say that each of us has every right to use whatever system for train control they wish! I will also say That I wouldn't trade my DCC system for any other system out there. I know several people living near me who have in the last year or so installed DCC on their layouts. For each it was a retrofit. What do they say? Well lets just say you can't get the .............. grin off their faces. They love DCC having now made the switch. That said, I could care less what any of you use. If it suits your needs and runs your layout as you want to run it, good for you. For those wondering about DCC and looking for something to "upgrade" (for want of a better word) their system. I have no hesitation recommending DCC!
73
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
Silver Pilot Change happens slowly. I know of one rather prominent modeler who swore that he would never go DCC. He listed many of the same reasons way he would not change - Too costly, too many locomotives to convert, it wasn't need for his operational plans, DC worked just fine for him, not interested in sound, etc. Then he ran on a layout with DCC, Tsunami equipped steam locos and a wireless system. When he moved because of a job change and started to build a new layout now it was going to be DCC, only sound engines, he decided to change modeling eras and sell off his collection of highly detailed and weathered diesels and change to steam. Everyone ribbed about his sudden conversion to DCC after vocally swearing off of it for years. He saw the light after see what DCC had to offer in terms of superior sound, control, ease of wiring and operating potential compared to his DC layout. Change can happen, sometimes it just takes a bigger hammer.
Change happens slowly.
I know of one rather prominent modeler who swore that he would never go DCC. He listed many of the same reasons way he would not change - Too costly, too many locomotives to convert, it wasn't need for his operational plans, DC worked just fine for him, not interested in sound, etc. Then he ran on a layout with DCC, Tsunami equipped steam locos and a wireless system. When he moved because of a job change and started to build a new layout now it was going to be DCC, only sound engines, he decided to change modeling eras and sell off his collection of highly detailed and weathered diesels and change to steam. Everyone ribbed about his sudden conversion to DCC after vocally swearing off of it for years. He saw the light after see what DCC had to offer in terms of superior sound, control, ease of wiring and operating potential compared to his DC layout. Change can happen, sometimes it just takes a bigger hammer.
Like that prominent modeler; cost, loco conversion, operating plans, sound - are all reasons I have no interest in DCC. Like that prominent modeler, if I move, and add sound, and change era's (which requires a locomotive sell-off), or change operating plans, I'll look into it.
Generally, I don't enjoy looking at old pictures or reading books about the hey day of railroading and want to copy that era in my layout. Many folks actually remember that type of prototype railroading and want to model that. That's great. I like modeling what I can see now and adding my own freelanced modeler's license to it.
Modern protoype railroading is pretty much about two types of railroading, unit trains pulled by six axle wide cabs, or, soon to be abandoned branch lines or short lines that exist to serve a major customer located some miles away, and happen to serve smaller customers along the way. The latter is more interesting to me. It also happens to be one-train-at-a-time operations, albeit slightly different trains each time depending upon which customers will be served when.
I've never conquered the biggest challenge that exists in model railroading, the lack of sufficient space; or successfully executing the concept of selective compression. I've now got about 400 square feet to run my one train Herbert set up, and I find that it still doesn't provide enough space between customers, to my eyes. But, I find it still to be more realistic than trying to cram 1954 Pennsy mainline operations, complete with staging and an engine terminal, in a spare bedroom. That type of plan supports DCC better.
IMO, my space only supports, as someone has said, the One-Train-Herbert concept. And I probably have more space than most. Others may have a tolerance for having stuff crammed together, or have different priorities, which allows them to get the full benefit of the DCC investment.
Now, now, guys and gals, lets not get really crazy and start debating which type of operating concept is "better".
BTW, regarding Lance Mindheim's small Miami based CSX layout, is it DCC? I think it is, but why I don't know. Is there ever a real need to have more than one locomotive on it at a time?
Doug
- Douglas
Silver PilotSheldon, based on the estimates of currents costs or the costs you provided there's around $150 in parts in just the relays (18@$5), boards (2@$20) and lighted pushbuttons (12@$2). That doesn't count the barrier strips, spade connectors and all the wire. And how many panels like that would you have? Sounds like it gets pricey quick. Add in $240 or so for each of the 4 cabs ( it does show 4 cabs correct?) and it does add up.
A few simple points:
I never said what I do was less expensive than DCC - UNTIL you add in signaling, CTC dispatching, and one button route control of turnouts.
$240 is the retail price of the TE, none of you are paying retail for DCC stuff, I did not pay retail for my Train Engineers. Yes the layout shown has 4 mainline throttles and two additional ones for a branch line.
My layout has eight of them. When purchased for both layouts, we paid $140 plus $20 each for power supplies.
Silver PilotI'll repeat myself and say the biggest area where DC can not compete with DCC is in yard operations and engine terminal operations. The ability to have a train enter the yard, cut off its engines and have the engineer run them to the servicing facility while a yard engine pulls the caboose off the rear of the train and places it on the caboose track for servicing while a second yard engine starts to pull the string of cars out for sorting. All this without pushing buttons to assign power, flipping toggles or sliding Atlas selectors is where DCC really stands out.
Agreed, but the way my yard is designed with automatic power routing, I actually can do that just like DCC and there are only four buttons to push ever, depending desired yard movements. Two engineers can work the yard/engine terminal with very little conflict and virtually no button pushing (since there are no toggles), but I will admit, there are a few kill switches in the engine storage tracks of the engine terminal.
I have said all along, for years now on this subject, that if I was building a different type, theme, scale scope, whatever, whatever, that I may well use DCC.
In fact if my layout was smaller, or my scale bigger, or I was modeling something like the Ma & Pa, I would use DCC. The lack of need for CTC or signals, the small nature of trackage, short trains, etc, would all lend its self to the features of DCC. In fact I recommend DCC to modelers all the time based on THEIR goal set.
I know myself pretty well, unlike your friend, it is beyond unlikely that I will change my modeling goals/interests at least until I finish the set of goals currently in place. That will likely require the rest of my life. I know my own nature. I use to be well rounded until I found out what I really like.
howmus... put a simple Bus around the layout with track feeds in logical places and started to use DCC.
... put a simple Bus around the layout with track feeds in logical places and started to use DCC.
That's what I am doing also.
This has been a fascinating discussion and pretty civil. I really enjoyed some of the pictures showing all that wiring that I won't be doing. Fortunately, the Maryland and Pennsylvania RR in 1953 was "dark" - no signals or CTC.
With wireless and manual throwing of switches, my current layout using DCC is pretty close to a two wire hookup. I have just a 2 wire bus around the layout with feeders to the track. At 14x23 ft one command station/booster is enough as is one radio base station and one power supply all located together. I don't even use the one cab bus panel and cab bus wire that was included in the system I bought, just plug the radio base station into the command/booster station.
My retirement layout will be a little more complicated since it will require another 3 boosters and a couple of radio repeater stations - still pretty simple.
The sound is a bonus, but I love it. I also plan to have less than 20 locomotives so decoder cost isn't a major issue.
Enjoy
Paul
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
DavidM - in going back through the thread I saw your Flame War warning on page 3. Since that hasn't occurred and we're on page 10, don't you think the warning can be removed? It's sort of like a T-Storm warning; once the threat has passed the warning is canceled.
Commenting in general on the thread, the tone of discussion has remained civil and cordial, especially since we lost a few of the early commentors. The only real post that I saw that was out of line was Crandell's when he made his comment about Digitrax being better than the rest. IMO that comment was totally uncalled for. It seemed like he was trying to start the flame war by throwing the lit match into the gasoline, or should I say petrol since he's a Canadian. Up until that time the conversation had never focused on a specific DCC system or one system being better than the other, it had to do with the virtues of DC control vs. DCC control and how the system can be used to operate a layout. I just thought it was cheap shot and an attempt to get the thread locked up, smileys or not. My opinion.
As I get cuaght back up on the happennings in this thread, a few comments come to mind.
First, based on my own very limited experience in installing a decoder in an 'older' steam locomotive. It was very easy and very simple to install a basic decoder in my 1977 Sunset 4-6-4. Located the decoder in the boiler and wired the pick ups to it and the motor leads to the motor. DONE! No changing motors, no isolating anything. Without tinkering it runs nice and smooth at slow speeds. So on that topic, my experience was it was easy, easier than many of the diesels I've done. Difficulty will depend on the specific loco.
Sheldon, based on the estimates of currents costs or the costs you provided there's around $150 in parts in just the relays (18@$5), boards (2@$20) and lighted pushbuttons (12@$2). That doesn't count the barrier strips, spade connectors and all the wire. And how many panels like that would you have? Sounds like it gets pricey quick. Add in $240 or so for each of the 4 cabs ( it does show 4 cabs correct?) and it does add up.
I have to agree with Paul3 regarding the Atlas components comment about showing the level of being serious about this hobby, so call me a snob too. Are they functional - yes; Are there better ways to do things - absolutely.
I'll repeat myself and say the biggest area where DC can not compete with DCC is in yard operations and engine terminal operations. The ability to have a train enter the yard, cut off its engines and have the engineer run them to the servicing facility while a yard engine pulls the caboose off the rear of the train and places it on the caboose track for servicing while a second yard engine starts to pull the string of cars out for sorting. All this without pushing buttons to assign power, flipping toggles or sliding Atlas selectors is where DCC really stands out.
howmus ATLANTIC CENTRALThe Aristo Train Engineer is currently $240 retail, they can be had for a lot less. When I, and the owner of the layout shown, bought them, we paid and average of $140, and use a $20 power supply for each one. Yep that is $240 for each throttle. Want to run more than one train and have more than one guy running them...? Don't forget each loco has to have a $37 (retail) receiver installed in it. The advertising used to (back when I wasted over $500 on that system) say it would fit in most HO locomotives. Yeah right! I basically ruined a tender trying to figure what to cut out of it be able to squeeze that monster in there.... Don't think I could get it into any of my steam locomotives..... And in the end between having the 5' long antenna from the controller getting caught on everything in the room and the fact that the loco still couldn't be made to work correctly I finally took it all out and stuck it in a closet. I then, since I wanted to relay track anyway, tore out the heap of wiring for DC along with about a hundred toggles and put a simple Bus around the layout with track feeds in logical places and started to use DCC. Since I don't like HO sound, and don't need a lot of other bells and whistles, each loco gets a simple NCE decoder that goes for less than $20. You guys can do whatever pleases you. It is, after all, your layout and your hobby. As for me I love DCC and would never ever go back!
ATLANTIC CENTRALThe Aristo Train Engineer is currently $240 retail, they can be had for a lot less. When I, and the owner of the layout shown, bought them, we paid and average of $140, and use a $20 power supply for each one.
Yep that is $240 for each throttle. Want to run more than one train and have more than one guy running them...? Don't forget each loco has to have a $37 (retail) receiver installed in it. The advertising used to (back when I wasted over $500 on that system) say it would fit in most HO locomotives. Yeah right! I basically ruined a tender trying to figure what to cut out of it be able to squeeze that monster in there.... Don't think I could get it into any of my steam locomotives..... And in the end between having the 5' long antenna from the controller getting caught on everything in the room and the fact that the loco still couldn't be made to work correctly I finally took it all out and stuck it in a closet. I then, since I wanted to relay track anyway, tore out the heap of wiring for DC along with about a hundred toggles and put a simple Bus around the layout with track feeds in logical places and started to use DCC. Since I don't like HO sound, and don't need a lot of other bells and whistles, each loco gets a simple NCE decoder that goes for less than $20.
You guys can do whatever pleases you. It is, after all, your layout and your hobby. As for me I love DCC and would never ever go back!
howmus, you are a little off base here and need re-read this thread. I don't use the Aristo system with the onboard receivers, I use the trackside Train Engineer throttles and an advance form of cab control based on MZL control.
There are no receivers in my locos, but signaling, walk around control, CTC control, collision avoidence, automatic stopping, and more are all intergrated into my cab selection and turnout control system.
The layout will easily handle 8-10 trains at the same time.
My Aristo hand helds have 4" antennas that still provide 75' of range that has never failed.
maxman tomikawaTTMaxman, I don't know where you got your DC control impressions. I guess you don't get out much. At the club I belong to, the railroad is divided up into sections. It is basically a point to point railroad. At areas where two trains would pass each other, we have built control panels. So the member standing there operating the trains is sort of looking at a minature tower panel. We have Dallee hand held DC throttles that do indeed have the direction changing toggle switch of which you are familiar. The Dallee connects to this panel by way of a four pin plug (two for power in, and two for power out). The panels were built with two locations where the Dallees could be connected, so a dexterous individual could operate with two of the hand sets. Or two people could operate independently. The DP/DT toggles "in the track lines of the panel" throw the track power to one handset or to the other. All of this was setup to allow more of the clubmembers to participate during open house events, and was a far better method than the previous arrangement where two guys would operate the railroad from a central control panel back by the boiler where you couldn't see anything because the scenery and people's heads were in the way. Yes, I suppose that there are arrangements where the "blocks" as I call them could have had their power assigned by a central dispatcher using a rotary switch or one of Mr. Electrical Guru's relay nightmares. But this would have required the engineer to walk around with his train to plug in whatever he had to use that contained his reversing switch and rheostat, a luxury we didn't have when the crowds came to visit. And all of this was done before DCC was invented, so that was not an option. This system has been in place at least 20 years, and was the best we could come up with given our particular set of circumstances. So that, sir, is where I get my DC control impressions.
tomikawaTTMaxman, I don't know where you got your DC control impressions.
I guess you don't get out much. At the club I belong to, the railroad is divided up into sections. It is basically a point to point railroad. At areas where two trains would pass each other, we have built control panels. So the member standing there operating the trains is sort of looking at a minature tower panel. We have Dallee hand held DC throttles that do indeed have the direction changing toggle switch of which you are familiar.
The Dallee connects to this panel by way of a four pin plug (two for power in, and two for power out). The panels were built with two locations where the Dallees could be connected, so a dexterous individual could operate with two of the hand sets. Or two people could operate independently. The DP/DT toggles "in the track lines of the panel" throw the track power to one handset or to the other.
All of this was setup to allow more of the clubmembers to participate during open house events, and was a far better method than the previous arrangement where two guys would operate the railroad from a central control panel back by the boiler where you couldn't see anything because the scenery and people's heads were in the way.
Yes, I suppose that there are arrangements where the "blocks" as I call them could have had their power assigned by a central dispatcher using a rotary switch or one of Mr. Electrical Guru's relay nightmares. But this would have required the engineer to walk around with his train to plug in whatever he had to use that contained his reversing switch and rheostat, a luxury we didn't have when the crowds came to visit.
And all of this was done before DCC was invented, so that was not an option.
This system has been in place at least 20 years, and was the best we could come up with given our particular set of circumstances.
So that, sir, is where I get my DC control impressions.
My apologies! I was under the impression that the DPDTs were for directional control...
Since I use common rail, I would use SPSTs for that purpose if I was still in full 2-cab mode.
In my case, cab assignments (or pass-through connections) are made at the passing siding's two tracks. The single tracks to either side are powered through the point actuators, so the effective electrical section is actually two (or three) 'blocks,' only one of which is directly connected to track power. Thanks to that pass-through capability, the engineer of a specific train usually controls it from the vicinity of the zone panel controlling the trackage where he will have to stop running and do something else - "Something else," being anything from a crew change to terminating and disassembling a local freight. (The one mandatory stop location is a division point.)
I mentioned setting up an orbit by positioning six rotary switches. Five of them would be set to pass-through. Only one would actually be set to a specific train controller. The orbiting train would, of necessity, be diesel powered - either a DMU set or a 'normal' train with a diesel-hydraulic locomotive.
{Incidentally, I'm not, "Sir." I'm just a Master Sergeant.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
davidmbedard You also turn a blind eye to the posts that say that converting brass locos is no big issue? I have never mentioned that Brass locos are difficult to convert, quite the opposite. They are wired simply with lots of room for whatever you wish to accomplish with them DCC-wise. Your worst-case scenario is a re-power, but even then, you can always get a decoder that can handle the amperage needed for the open-framed motors. David B
You also turn a blind eye to the posts that say that converting brass locos is no big issue?
I have never mentioned that Brass locos are difficult to convert, quite the opposite. They are wired simply with lots of room for whatever you wish to accomplish with them DCC-wise. Your worst-case scenario is a re-power, but even then, you can always get a decoder that can handle the amperage needed for the open-framed motors.
David B
You may want to re-read Tom's closing statement at the end of his last post. I've quoted it below for convenience:
twhite The cost seems a little daunting, and I don't mine telling you that when it comes to Things Electric (or electronic), I'm pretty much of a Doofus. If it helps, I just had to have someone come over and install a new amp for my Surround System in my music room. I couldn't make heads or tails out of the instruction manual. So for me, a conversion to DCC has two very BIG drawbacks--cost and electronics. The first doesn't scare me quite THAT much, but the second makes me break out in a sweat.
The cost seems a little daunting, and I don't mine telling you that when it comes to Things Electric (or electronic), I'm pretty much of a Doofus. If it helps, I just had to have someone come over and install a new amp for my Surround System in my music room. I couldn't make heads or tails out of the instruction manual.
So for me, a conversion to DCC has two very BIG drawbacks--cost and electronics. The first doesn't scare me quite THAT much, but the second makes me break out in a sweat.
The word "simply" in your post above - especially in the realm of electronics - is a VERY broad statment that can't be made across the board for everybody. What may seem simple to you may not be quite that simple in someone else's mind.
Case in point: I have yet to run across a book on DC wiring that is able to step-by-step teach you and walk you through how to do it - without making large leaps ahead and BIG assumptions by the author.
That's not to say that Tom can't "learn" to install decoders in his brass locomotives, which I interpreted as clarifying the age and possible pitfalls to a DCC conversion rather than bragging that he had nothing but top-quality "Rolls Royces" in his roster. Tom has mentioned from time to time here that he runs very prototypical D&RGW steamers on garage layout; many which are only available in brass. He was being upfront; not a braggart.
Anyway, if you don't do installs or electronics on a daily or regular basis, it can seem kinda daunting to determine which of your locomotives will need converting (isolated), which might need remotoring, where exactly to put the decoder, which decoder should I use, etc, etc.
Again, it's easier when you have or have had the experience to fall back on. It's another thing altogether to jump in feet first into a realm that is both out of your comfort zone and expertise.
Tom, I don't know if you have any experience with DCC at all, but if you don't, and could arrange to get some, you may find yourself writing yet another chapter in your personal story about the hobby. I don't want to appear to be leaning on you, but more-so encouraging you to explore DCC with even one engine, maybe a clunker that actually runs reasonably well. If a hobby shop would be willing to lend you a starter system for a week, it takes the same two main leads on two terminals, and leave your selectors closed if that can be done without confounding them. Place the brass convert or a DCC loner engine on the layout and play with it.
It could be a series of conversions of engines the same way you have acquired them...once a year. As you get more famliar and comfortable, well....there might come a time when you suddenly fall completely and find yourself with a problem...coming over to the Dark Side willy-nilly or calling a nice-to-have...but...
Anyway, DCC is no more complicated than running a computer or compiling posts with a keyboard. Wiring conversion of your layout should be as simple as eliminating any selectors and connecting any wires to them in series for the most part...although a common rail setup is something I'll leave others to talk about.
In the end, I would like to believe that you are happy as you are experiencing the hobby, not as others tell you to enjoy it. Including moi.
-Crandell
Paul and Chuck,
I understand there are many reasons to reverse polarity, and the ones you describe are certainly popular or sometimes essential. The seriousness and helpful tone of your comments is obvious. Its difficult to sometimes express the intended tone with internet comments such as these.
My comments about reverse loops, on the other hand, was just me being a smart-aleck; trying to interject a frivalous question about the need to reverse polarity at all, when the group was entrenched in the traditional DCC/DC debate.
To everybody:
As far as the DCC issue goes, I'll add my two cents. In my situation, I understand my reluctance to have DCC stems from ignorance. I wasn't born with knowledge of DCC. Nobody is. It must be acquired, and everybody acquires the knowledge for their own personal reasons. Some people think it will help them operate their layout. Others just like it because what they really like to do is to tinker with new technology, but don't always like to admit that. Some don't acquire the knowledge because they are intimidated. For me, I have my own reasons.
The marketing of DCC is not presented with the idea that everybody has their own unique model railroad and their own personal goals. It tends to be marketed as though everybody has, or is working towards having, the same type of complicated layout. Maybe I would enjoy the hobby even more if I had one of those layouts. Maybe not. But, when I get the impression that a Digitrax Zephyr is superior, in part, to a Bachmann EZ because it can control 99 locomotives and the Bachmann can control only 10, I feel like there is a bit of snake oil in the product, since, for my railroad, I only need to control about 3. Most often times, whenever someone is talking to me (selling me) about DCC, and I've been to LHS's all over the country, they never bother to ask me how many locomotives I want to control. They tend to just spout off about how much power a system has, or what all it can do. As if I really want to control 99 locomotives at the same time. That approach is a turn off. Read the pamphlets and written ads the manufacturer's produce. While they are tactfully presented, the basic message is the same; "be-dazzle the customer with power and features".
Also, I don't want to pay for stuff I don't need. I don't want to pay for the ability to control 99 locomotives and the option of having authentic (to who's ear?) sound.
When I buy a new car, and I want a few options, I don't want to have to buy the upgraded LXI model, and option package #2, and get a whole bunch of stuff I don't want, but yet must pay for, just to get the few things I really want. We can talk about the consolidation of manufacturing entities, their power over the consumer, and the philosophy they have when building products to maximize profits, but that is another topic.
My layout has two blocked switching towns separated by a 35 foot shelf of mainline in between. I need a wireless throttle, first and foremost. The DCC throttles I am aware of would cost about $500, including the system. Although I only run 3 locos at a time, I have about two dozen for when I want to change era's, paint schemes, modernization, etc. Decoders would add to that cost. Not that the cost of DCC is exhorbitant, its just that I don't want to pay for options I don't use just to get wireless.
Alas, I know my situation is unique, and manufacturer's will never give me a powered down, relatively featureless, DCC chip and system, but with a wireless throttle (that's not infrared). Alas, I therefore know, I will never look to buy into a DCC system until such time as I upgrade my railroading goals, if ever. I'll finish building the current layout first, some day. Those modeler's who live in the more popular modeling world may think it is the greatest. I wish you well with it.
davidmbedard Near as I can figure, Paul3 is ahead in the accuracy category and Brakie and Sheldon are tied for volume. David B is currently far in the lead in the distance category. And my dead horse counts for nothing?!? David B
Near as I can figure, Paul3 is ahead in the accuracy category and Brakie and Sheldon are tied for volume. David B is currently far in the lead in the distance category.
And my dead horse counts for nothing?!?
Dog food perhaps?
selector Tom, thank-you for being a good sport with my post. Sometimes such posts in a contentious thread can be risky, but I am glad you were not fooled. Believe me, you have no monopoly on a queasy stomach when it comes to changing things. I totally get what you are saying. If your system ain't broke, why start taking things apart? -Crandell
Tom, thank-you for being a good sport with my post. Sometimes such posts in a contentious thread can be risky, but I am glad you were not fooled.
Believe me, you have no monopoly on a queasy stomach when it comes to changing things. I totally get what you are saying. If your system ain't broke, why start taking things apart?
Crandell:
You're welcome. However, I am starting to get a little contentious with a certain Dead Horse Beater, so I think I'll quit the thread, now.
Funny thing, I was actually starting to get INTERESTED in the possibilities of DCC.
Oh well--
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
In which category?
Paul3Sheldon,I know you got a sweetheart deal on your relays, but do you have any idea of the MSRP cost of each one? DPDT? Latching or non? You have 16 of one kind and 2 of another kind per board. If they average around $10 each for relay and socket, that's $180 per junction; for 8, that's $1440 plus the cost of some buttons and the 6 Aristo radios at $240 ea. So call it around $2900 MSRP for that layout in the pictures. I'm not busting your chops, just trying to get a handle on your retail costs. And for time spent, around 2.5 hours per panel to build and install...that's around 20 hours of labor? And are those 16 relay sockets actually custom etched PCB?
Paul,
YOU can buy those relays from the same place I did for about $3 each just by buying the whole project quantity at once. Actually they are all the same relay, 4PDT ice cube, 24 VDC coil. Yes the groups of eight are on custom boards I had made. But they need not be, that just makes it easier. The boards cost about $20 each to have made. I contracted enough for my layout and my friends layout and a few spares. As a market product they could be done much cheaper. The Aristo Train Engineer is currently $240 retail, they can be had for a lot less. When I, and the owner of the layout shown, bought them, we paid and average of $140, and use a $20 power supply for each one. The LED lighted pushbuttons come from the same supplier as the relays and are about $2 each.
AND, I did tell the owner of that layout the the cost would be similar to DCC, but he did not want to install decoders in his brass shays and such. The layout owner, myself and two others in our group divided up the installation labor with me leading the team. His application does not necessarily maximize the benifits since he does not have signaling or a central panel. BUT, a central panel could be easily added to his system if he wanted it.
davidmbedard David M, unless you are very well informed about a specific modeler's financial situation, perceived excessive cost is NEVER a, "Poor argument." Some of us have to support our hobbies on a frayed shoestring. My own brass was purchased a long time ago, in kit form. Present replacement cost, thanks to inflation and changing exchange rates, is 30-50 times the price I paid. In fact, my typical brass loco cost me less than the decoder I would need to make it DCC-able. ...then he need not mention the fact that he has so many "Brass" locos and just title them as "locos". David B
David M, unless you are very well informed about a specific modeler's financial situation, perceived excessive cost is NEVER a, "Poor argument." Some of us have to support our hobbies on a frayed shoestring. My own brass was purchased a long time ago, in kit form. Present replacement cost, thanks to inflation and changing exchange rates, is 30-50 times the price I paid. In fact, my typical brass loco cost me less than the decoder I would need to make it DCC-able.
...then he need not mention the fact that he has so many "Brass" locos and just title them as "locos".
David:
I mentioned them as being BRASS locomotives because of problems I have heard on other posts with converting brass locomotives to DCC. I wasn't bragging, I was simply stating a fact.
andrechapelon *snip* Final results will be posted when the contest ends either due to the exhaustion of the participants or the game is called on account of the moderators losing their patience. Andre
*snip* Final results will be posted when the contest ends either due to the exhaustion of the participants or the game is called on account of the moderators losing their patience.
Any wagers on which will happen first?
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.
andrechapelonandrechapelon Scarpia 8 pages? Really guys, 8 pages on this "topic"? And last week's wpf post only got to 5? Huh. Guess my impression of the hobby is way off. Which hobby is that, model railroading or competitive bladder emptying? Andre In competitive bladder emptying, there are 3 categories as follows: volume, distance and accuracy. Near as I can figure, Paul3 is ahead in the accuracy category and Brakie and Sheldon are tied for volume. David B is currently far in the lead in the distance category. Thanks to all who have participated so far. Final results will be posted when the contest ends either due to the exhaustion of the participants or the game is called on account of the moderators losing their patience. Andre
andrechapelon Scarpia 8 pages? Really guys, 8 pages on this "topic"? And last week's wpf post only got to 5? Huh. Guess my impression of the hobby is way off. Which hobby is that, model railroading or competitive bladder emptying? Andre
Scarpia 8 pages? Really guys, 8 pages on this "topic"? And last week's wpf post only got to 5? Huh. Guess my impression of the hobby is way off.
8 pages? Really guys, 8 pages on this "topic"?
And last week's wpf post only got to 5?
Huh. Guess my impression of the hobby is way off.
Which hobby is that, model railroading or competitive bladder emptying?
In competitive bladder emptying, there are 3 categories as follows: volume, distance and accuracy.
Thanks to all who have participated so far. Final results will be posted when the contest ends either due to the exhaustion of the participants or the game is called on account of the moderators losing their patience.
Andre, is it true that color is being discounted in this year's competition? Besides stream length, distance, and accuracy, a fair number of the community is calling for a more natural competition, included some other factors such as brevity, and usefulness.
Apparently from our scientific experts here on call, the color of the stream can also indicate whether or not the athlete has taken hormones or other performance enhancers.
From some sources, this is not a an un- ... I'm sorry what's that..... - we will be right back after this important announcement from our sponsor.
Silver Pilot Driline BRAKIEI can wire blocks on my layouts by using Atlas selectors and plastic rail joiners on the common rail.. That's fine if you're a noobie. But ALL of the modelrailroaders I grew up with moved on to toggle and rotary switches on the fascia. Then we found DCC and never went back. Or if you're 70+ years old and are, to paraphrase Bobby Unser, an analog mind stuck in a digital world. Brakie, Sheldon & TT probably haven't figured out the whole digital TV thing yet either; We should all be impressed that they've figured out computers and the internet. Though we know that TT hasn't figured out digital cameras and how to post pictures yet.
Driline BRAKIEI can wire blocks on my layouts by using Atlas selectors and plastic rail joiners on the common rail.. That's fine if you're a noobie. But ALL of the modelrailroaders I grew up with moved on to toggle and rotary switches on the fascia. Then we found DCC and never went back.
BRAKIEI can wire blocks on my layouts by using Atlas selectors and plastic rail joiners on the common rail..
That's fine if you're a noobie. But ALL of the modelrailroaders I grew up with moved on to toggle and rotary switches on the fascia. Then we found DCC and never went back.
Or if you're 70+ years old and are, to paraphrase Bobby Unser, an analog mind stuck in a digital world. Brakie, Sheldon & TT probably haven't figured out the whole digital TV thing yet either; We should all be impressed that they've figured out computers and the internet. Though we know that TT hasn't figured out digital cameras and how to post pictures yet.
Touche'! I have gotten as far as loading the pictures to my hard drive. Someday...
Driline, about the time the first command control system was raising a few tendrils out of the mud I discovered MZL, moved 1/3 of my selectors to zone panels, routed the other circuits to the switch point actuators and never looked back. By the time DCC had bloomed into full flower I was too far along my chosen course to spend $$$ i didn't have to go back to square one.
Doug, you have to remember that some of us operate in the manner of a very specific prototype - including the requirement to keep catenary motors on tracks with wire overhead and steam locos out of the long tunnel the motors use to reach the Netherworld. Down in the depths of the Netherworld there is ONE track section that allows trains to turn endways. It is used to support over 100 train movements per 'day' - most of which involve being turned end-for-end.
Maxman, I don't know where you got your DC control impressions. In every system I've encountered, from two wires to MZL, the only DPDT switches (toggle, slide or whatever) were part of the device that controlled the locomotive, not in the track lines of the panels.
Paul, MZL, as I practice it, is no more complex to wire than traditional DC. The major difference is that I use contacts on switch point actuators (motor or manual) to do what used to be done with toggles on a panel.
To reiterate, for someone who is starting from zero, or from a limited position wanting to expand, DCC is probably a better idea than any form of DC. However, I really am 70+, am in the process of building what I believe is my, "Last in this lifetime," layout and may very well be an analog mind in a digital world. I am very content in my chosen niche.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - as I like it)
Paul3doctorwayne,A lot of us that have DCC were against it ourselves. I was. I was very against DCC. It was due to my ignorance of DCC and what it meant I could do with my layout. I was, indeed, "missing out" by refusing to even consider it. When I saw it and used it, and my other fears assuaged (it's an NMRA Standard), I became an enthusiastic DCC user. Some of us, I guess, feel the need to share that experience with others so that they, too, can enjoy what we now enjoy. Some go too far spreading the news. Hopefully, I haven't.
A lot of us that have DCC were against it ourselves. I was. I was very against DCC. It was due to my ignorance of DCC and what it meant I could do with my layout. I was, indeed, "missing out" by refusing to even consider it. When I saw it and used it, and my other fears assuaged (it's an NMRA Standard), I became an enthusiastic DCC user. Some of us, I guess, feel the need to share that experience with others so that they, too, can enjoy what we now enjoy. Some go too far spreading the news. Hopefully, I haven't.
Thanks for your well-considered reply, Paul.
As for costs, it was originally a concern, but in my present situation, with only a couple dozen locos, it no longer is. I've never understood why so many thought it difficult to equip brass locos with DCC, either: anybody familiar with re-motoring brass should be able to accomplish it easily.
Paul3Personally, I am a total snob when it comes to Atlas electrical parts. I really, really dislike them. To me, it shows a lack of seriousness in the hobby...like seeing exploding boxcars and launching missle cars. I have seen layouts with thousands of bucks and hundreds of hours invested in it...yet they use the cheapest electrical junk on the planet to make it go. Just...plain....ick. Oh, and it's totally possible to have a "rat's nest of wires" with Atlas products. I know because I used to have one.
Personally, I am a total snob when it comes to Atlas electrical parts. I really, really dislike them. To me, it shows a lack of seriousness in the hobby...like seeing exploding boxcars and launching missle cars. I have seen layouts with thousands of bucks and hundreds of hours invested in it...yet they use the cheapest electrical junk on the planet to make it go. Just...plain....ick. Oh, and it's totally possible to have a "rat's nest of wires" with Atlas products. I know because I used to have one.
Another thing to bear in mind is the newcomers to this hobby. Some are adults, either returning to the hobby or discovering it for the first time, and with, relatively speaking, money to burn, while others are students with little or no income. Perhaps someday DCC-equipped starter trainsets will be commonplace, but what grandpa and grandma buy for their grandkids (if they consider trains at all) is usually a DC set. While the adult newcomers can often afford (and want) all the "bells and whistles" associated with DCC, those kids just starting out shouldn't be made to feel that they're not "serious" about the hobby just because they can't afford a certain aspect of it. Hopefully, we "DC-dinosaurs" will be able to provide enough of an example of what can be done in DC, keeping them in the hobby until they are able to move up to DCC or whatever happens to be the preferred system at that time.
Even though diesels rule the rails nowadays, many fans still prefer steam: likewise for control systems, many opt for DCC, but some still prefer DC.
Wayne
David B asks:Are you just making things up?
------------------------------
No,Why would I want to do such a thing when it gains nothing?
I base my comments on my past experiences or first hand observations..
--------------------------------
My old buddy Paul wrote:
Paul,I use Atlas selectors because its easy to wire.You dislike 'em..I hate toggle switches since you need more then 1 wire per block..
IMHO selectors doesn't cheapen a layout as much as modeling or scenery mistakes..Come on now a modeler spends hours making a beautiful water fall with nothing more then a small farm pond to catch billions gallons of water that comes tumbling down the falls and these guys are the so called "experts" that tells us how we should model?
You mention "like seeing exploding boxcars and launching missile cars". Paul,let's not go there on a public forum since that opens up a can of hyper active worms.
Now pray tell how you manage to get a rats nest running one wire to each block? I'll love to have seen that..LOL!
Paul:
Thanks for the answers, I appreciate them.
As to converting the open-frames, I had heard that DCC didn't work well with them. Obviously your success with them gives me something to think about, if I consider the Big Move. Of course, I know that the motor has to be isolated from the frame--that has been standard operational procedure with every locomotive I've converted from open-frame to can.
As to the Tomar sliders--I've not had any problems with them catching on trackwork--but I've had to do some careful adjusting to make sure that the slider itself is in line with my wheel flanges and riding the rail-head as if it had a flange in 'back' of it. But no problems 'catching', and definite improved pickup.
My layout would be run by myself--I'm a "Lone Wolf" kinda guy, and there would be no other operators involved. At the most, given my 'real-time' operating methods, there would be no more than two trains on the layout at any given time (which is what I'm doing now, BTW). It's a non-parallel double track line--similar to the east-west lines on the UP (ex SP) Donner Pass route between Rocklin and Colfax, CA. Stiff mountain grades (2-2.4%) but generous curves (34-36"). Little 'on-line' traffic, save for some local once-a-week 'turn' freights and seasonal cattle moves. Main 'yard' moves would be changing out power between "Valley" and "Mountain" power--either double-heading or replacing with large steam. Some 'rear-end' helper service right out of the main yard where the grade is the heaviest (2.4%), drop-off of helpers half-way up where the grade eases.
Anyway, that's pretty much my 'operations'. I'll be honest, though, if I were to do it, I'd want to convert all of my locos at once, since I really never know WHICH locomotive I want to have running at any given time.
But that's what I'd be facing, pretty much. The cost seems a little daunting, and I don't mine telling you that when it comes to Things Electric (or electronic), I'm pretty much of a Doofus. If it helps, I just had to have someone come over and install a new amp for my Surround System in my music room. I couldn't make heads or tails out of the instruction manual.
But thank you for your information. It's really appreciated.
twhite,No, you didn't post Sheldon's "cheap shot" about flipping block toggles, so don't worry about it.
tomikawaTT,Weren't those DC panels of ours something? They weren't too bad to operate as the blocks progressed across the toggle rows in a linear fashion...for the most part. We would run these panels for hours and hours during train shows. We'd have three toggles on for each train: the block you're in, the block in front, and the block behind, and we'd flip them over and over again. If someone turned on one of your blocks, both trains would be linked and either short out or change speed. Then there would be cries of "Who's got my train?" as at every session someone always screwed up. It was a no-brainer to go from that DC cab control system to DCC. I was against DCC at first (believe it or not), but soon saw the advantages of such a system for our new layout.
Sheldon,I know you got a sweetheart deal on your relays, but do you have any idea of the MSRP cost of each one? DPDT? Latching or non? You have 16 of one kind and 2 of another kind per board. If they average around $10 each for relay and socket, that's $180 per junction; for 8, that's $1440 plus the cost of some buttons and the 6 Aristo radios at $240 ea. So call it around $2900 MSRP for that layout in the pictures. I'm not busting your chops, just trying to get a handle on your retail costs. And for time spent, around 2.5 hours per panel to build and install...that's around 20 hours of labor? And are those 16 relay sockets actually custom etched PCB?
Anyways, on my DCC layout, I figure I've spend around $1100 on the system (w/ 3 wireless throttles), and another $1000 on decoders for 50 locos. If I added three more wireless throttles to equal that layout you wired, that would bring my total up to $2805-ish. Time spent wiring the layout is minimal as I just have two wires running under the track with short feeders every 9'. Time spent installing decoders varies wildly from the easy to the difficult.
All in all, it's about equal except you get signals and automatic train stop (of a sort) and I get free running over my entire layout, speed curves, lighting, and the other DCC options that we all know about. Obviously, you don't care much for the latter because of your wants and needs, and I can appreciate that.
For the "two-wire" argument, it can be done with DCC without issue. My layout is a prime example. However, there are limitations in that signalling and detection is non-existant and one short kills the whole layout...but it can be done.
Brakie,For the record, no, you can't get the same momentum effects from a DC power supply that you can from DCC. It's not possible because DCC has 255 variable momentum rates per loco for both accel and decel. The available DC power supplies have it either on or off and the rate is the same for both accel and decel. It's possible to build such a DC supply, but there isn't one out there today.
Doug,There are a lot of people that like to just see their trains run...for hours. They say it's relaxing. I tend to fall asleep. Reverse loops are therefore common. Also, think of wyes and turntables. They also need reversing blocks.
twhite,I have 6 brass steam engines, 5 brass electrics, 3 brass diesels that I have installed DCC decoders in. Furthermore, at my 70-member club, we have dozens of brass locos that have also been decodered. They all run just as well on DCC as they did on DC. The biggest knock is that on some brass, they run too slow because the track voltage is lower than on the old DC layout days. I get the feeling that some brass locos were meant to run at 16v or even 18v but DCC's 12-14v is too little for these. Still, if you're running freight you won't notice. Passenger locos, OTOH, can be noticably slow if you're used to runnin' them fast on DC. My old brass doodlebug is really, really slow...but my FL9 is just fine.
If anything, DCC can make brass run better with BEMF, or so they tell me. BEMF can smooth out rough valve gear "hitches" and binds if tweaked properly.
Doing brass steam can be easy with DCC. It depends on the room in the boiler and if you want headlights and tender lights. If you put the decoder in the boiler and do not install a back up light, one can still use just the drawbar for power from the tender. If you put the decoder in the tender or add a back-up light, then you have to start adding mini-plugs from Minatronics.
As you can tell, I find these horror stories of DCC in brass to be a bunch of hooey. I've yet to hear anyone actually comment on personal experience with one of these horror stories...just "I've heard..." and "So-and-so said..." Nothing concrete. Trust me. I've done a lot of brass for both myself and for others. It's not that hard. I find it easier to do brass steam than a BB Athearn.
BTW, how do you keep the Tomar shoes from snagging on the track and twisting in annoying ways? My friend has a B&A 4-6-6T that I helped put a shoe on, and every time it runs, the shoe wants to catch on frogs, grade crossings, scenery, etc.
Oh, and FWIW, no one said you had to buy all your DCC decoders at once, either. Buy them here and there and stockpile them. It's not like they rot from disuse. When you get enough, then convert your loco fleet. I did the same thing when I went to Kadees when I was a kid.
BTW, why would you have to replace open frame motors with cans? I have a NJ/Custom Brass NH I-4 with an DC70-clone open frame. It works just fine with an old DH121 DCC decoder.
For figuring out your DCC conversion cost for the system, the questions are: 1). How many trains run at the same time? 2). How many operators are running said trains? 3). Do you want wireless throttles? Answer those, and then we can talk specific prices.
doctorwayne,A lot of us that have DCC were against it ourselves. I was. I was very against DCC. It was due to my ignorance of DCC and what it meant I could do with my layout. I was, indeed, "missing out" by refusing to even consider it. When I saw it and used it, and my other fears assuaged (it's an NMRA Standard), I became an enthusiastic DCC user. Some of us, I guess, feel the need to share that experience with others so that they, too, can enjoy what we now enjoy. Some go too far spreading the news. Hopefully, I haven't. Texas Zephyr,DC block wiring can be easy and simple...especially compared to MZL. A 2-cab system with DPDT center off toggles can be a snap. An engine terminal for one cab is equally easy. A more complicated block control panel like the ones I posted from my old club? Um, not so much. Most people can understand ON and OFF. They are used to turning on a wall switch in their house. Turning on a block is not that different. Linking that block to multiple cabs is another story, but the concept of ON and OFF...well, I hazard a guess that 99% of the population gets that.
maxman BRAKIESame thing since both isolates sections of track..You can turn off a "power district" just like a DC block. Come on, now. It is absolutely not the same thing. If I have a single track mainline with a passing siding, and I want to have the ability to pass one train around another with DC, I'll need a toggle switch on each of the tracks that form the passing siding. If I add to that two operators that want their trains to go in opposing directions, I will also need a DP/DT toggle switch in the two tracks that lead into and out of the passing siding tracks. To me, and I think to most others, those four sections of track with their associated toggle switches form the four "blocks" for this section of railroad, at least in the model sense. With DCC, those four sections of track would all be included in one power district. No toggle switches are required for the two engineers to pass their trains. Further, most if not all of the "power district" definitions I've seen in the model railroad press involve the number of power units that can congregate in one particular location. So a 150 foot mainline that only sees one train at a time may be part of a power district, but a roundhouse with 15 sound engines may form a power district by itself.
BRAKIESame thing since both isolates sections of track..You can turn off a "power district" just like a DC block.
Come on, now. It is absolutely not the same thing. If I have a single track mainline with a passing siding, and I want to have the ability to pass one train around another with DC, I'll need a toggle switch on each of the tracks that form the passing siding. If I add to that two operators that want their trains to go in opposing directions, I will also need a DP/DT toggle switch in the two tracks that lead into and out of the passing siding tracks. To me, and I think to most others, those four sections of track with their associated toggle switches form the four "blocks" for this section of railroad, at least in the model sense.
With DCC, those four sections of track would all be included in one power district. No toggle switches are required for the two engineers to pass their trains. Further, most if not all of the "power district" definitions I've seen in the model railroad press involve the number of power units that can congregate in one particular location. So a 150 foot mainline that only sees one train at a time may be part of a power district, but a roundhouse with 15 sound engines may form a power district by itself.
Actually the power blocks is basically for shorts and can be shut off like a DC block..You can isolate the shorted section by turning it off and continue operation.
Any way they want to sugarcoat under any other name its still a block since it requires a toggle switch or selector to turn this section of track on or off..
The blocks used in stagging, engine service areas, diesel houses and roundhouses is a precaution for both decoder and motor in the event of a power spike or short..
Also many keep their DC blocks when shifting from DC to DCC for those "power blocks"..
As far as having a meet between 2 trains on DC power routing switches will isolate one train as the other passes a flip of selector from cab A to Cab B and the second train can continue on its way.Of course this is very basic DC that got buried by the "experts" as they complicated DC wiring over the years.
And apparently the DCC "experts" is burying the simplicity of DCC wiring as well...
ScarpiaAnd last week's wpf post only got to 5?
Paul3Sheldon,Many people still flip toggles or turn rotary switches. ... I agree it's not a great way to run a railroad, but it's simple to understand and execute. As you know, it's been the subject of many books and magazine articles over the past 70 years or so.
P.S. The issue in the previous few posts - the power blocks people use in DCC are a totally different issue than the control blocks used in DC. Even advanced DC control systems can have power blocks too. There are also signalling blocks which are yet a different thing. Sometimes these end up being the same sections of track but logically they are serving different purposes. I think most people have gone way overboard with the DCC wiring thing. I'm in the camp that says 2 wires until I come across a situation that needs something more.
maxman BRAKIENow a hidden fact about DCC is the use of "power districts" which is no more then old fashion blocks that DCC was to do away with. I don't think this is a correct statement. They are two different things.
BRAKIENow a hidden fact about DCC is the use of "power districts" which is no more then old fashion blocks that DCC was to do away with.
I don't think this is a correct statement. They are two different things.
Same thing since both isolates sections of track..You can turn off a "power district" just like a DC block.
In fact many advance DCC'ers is using blocks to isolate locomotives in engine service areas,diesel house,roundhouse and staging tracks.
There is certainly nothing wrong with taking precautions since DCC rail is always "hot".
selector twhite...And I'd be going for top-grade decoders, which are probably a lot more than $12. Ahaaa...!! We knew you'd cave eventually, Tom. How about a photo essay of your first insallation? Oh, and Digitrax systems are waaaaay better than all the rest....waaay....
twhite...And I'd be going for top-grade decoders, which are probably a lot more than $12.
Ahaaa...!! We knew you'd cave eventually, Tom. How about a photo essay of your first insallation?
Oh, and Digitrax systems are waaaaay better than all the rest....waaay....
Crandell: Hoo-HAH!
Okay, a premise: 50 brass locos at about, say, $15-20 a pop for decoders.
Ooops! I've got to replace about 5 very smooth-running open-frame motors, don't I? Let's see, there's about another $25 a pop for NWSL cans. Or do I?
NOW--(he said, scratching his little bald head) I've got to get a SYSTEM. All the 'stuff' to convert from DC to DCC. How much are we talking about here? The basic goodies, the power thingie and the hand-held throttle(s) (are they still called 'throttles'?). Oh, and yah, I'm installing an operating semaphore system. What about THAT little devil? My turnouts are all hand-thrown and route-selective. What about them?
Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic, but I'm just kind of wondering what kind of Big Bucks it would take to convert the Yuba River sub (which is a pretty good-sized layout) to DCC.
My OP sessions are done in 'real time', not 'scale time', and the railroad is designed to run about 20 trains in a 24 hour period, somewhat like the prototype. With helpers, of course. Not much yard work, except for a weekly local. So many of my locomotives are geared so close together that I really don't need to worry about 'surge' or 'stringling' when I use rear-train helpers, so I really don't see the need to 'program' them together.
Right now, about the only reason I can see an advantage of using DCC would be to be able to cut the helpers off and run them back down the line to the terminal while the freight is still on its way. Actually, I can do that now, flipping a slider, though it's kind of a slow process (but it was that way on the prototype).
I don't want to come on like a cantankerous Old Fart (which I'm afraid I have, anyway ), but right now, except for what seems like an ENORMOUS outlay of funds, I really can't see converting to DCC. But for those that use DCC and like it, as I said in my original post, way back before the guns got fired: "Good on you."
davidmbedard Brakie, you do NOT need a programming track. You just need to program through OPs mode the new loco under it's default address (03) and go from there. You other locos are absolutely free to be running around in the background. No, you do not need power districts. Another DCC mis-nomer. They are nice to have, but by no means a necessity. David B
Brakie, you do NOT need a programming track. You just need to program through OPs mode the new loco under it's default address (03) and go from there. You other locos are absolutely free to be running around in the background.
No, you do not need power districts. Another DCC mis-nomer. They are nice to have, but by no means a necessity.
Well,so much for the DCC gurus and "experts" found on some forums and in magazines that pushes "power districts" in case of a short..
I knew when I fooled with DCC you had to have a separate programming track and many DCC"experts" still recommend such...
I've read about the decoders that can be programed on the main line but,personally wouldn't risk doing that knowing my luck.
BTW..I guess you missed my "DCC can be as simple as hooking 2 wires to the track" comment?
I HATE limited travel potentiometer throttles, the endless turning digital encoder offers far finer control than any simple potentiometer ever could. However - next time you operate on the Digitrax layout try using the + and - buttons to control speed, since you like pushbuttons, That works too, on the DT throttles (which you must be using since the UT throttles have potentiometers). This is obviously not an issue of "no feedback" because pushing buttons for faster or slower has no direct feedback either. If you push the 'faster' button a couple of times, just how fast are you going? What if you can't see the train? Is there a display like on the DT400 throttle that at least gives you a relative percentage so you know if you are at 1/4 throttle, half throttle, or running wide open? Ergonomics? I hold the DT400 down at my side with one hand, using my thumb to rotate the speed dial and click it to reverse, leaving my other hand free to operate coupler picks.
The move towards 28 functions has made EVERYONE's throttle display clunky, and is entirely unecessary. Even with sound, you do NOT need 28 functions - unless you are lazy. Press F2 to blow the horn as long as yuou hold it - so you can make any signal. Or hey, look, hit F21 and you get a grade crossing signal. Whoopee. Getting there is clunky, because I really don't think anyone is goign to make a throttle with induvidual buttons for 28 functions - and if they did, what happens when it expands to 36 functions? Stop the insanity! We now have more function buttoms than a prototypical locomotive has.
ANd of course you can nver win when it comes to how many buttons. The DT400 is actually far easier to operate than the predecessor DT300 and DT100 throttles, simply because it does have more buttons - every button does ONE thing, no SHIFT and ALT combinations which are A) impossible to do with one hand and B) impossible to remember. 10 of those are just numbers 0-9 so you can just type in the cab number of the loco to run - how difficult is that? That's the only button pushing you have to do with DCC for the entire time you run a given loco, unless you have sound and want to blow the whistle and ring the bell. Othersie, you just adjust the speed knob and maybe change direction, just like a DC throttle. And watch the tracks ahead like a good engineer should.
Oh, and the $12 decoders ARE good quality decoders - if you buy the NCE $12 decoders and not th Bachmann $12 decoders. Actually, I think the Bachmann ones cost MORE than $12 - in which case I wonder who would even buy that junk.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
BRAKIE DJ,Like I said I was a mite confused because I have done all of what you mention. You do know the higher you set the speed knob the longer it takes for the engine to start moving.I am probably among the few that likes momentum. Atlas and Athearn uses a 14:1 gear ratio..The difference is in the motor's circuit draw..However,I seen Genesis and Atlas locomotives play very well together. One big problem with DC is the modeler.Way to many times I seen block overkill on small to medium size layouts..There is no real reason to block a industrial siding or every 36" piece of flex track...Many blocks can be eliminated by using power routed turnouts..Of course that goes against the magazine "experts" but,it does work.. On some of by 12"x12' ISL the whole layout is one big block with no bus and feeder wire since there is no need. DC can be very simple or complex just like DCC. My DCC operation was very basic.2 wires to the track and other then consisting no CV settings. The only reason I went DCC was for sound.When sound came available for DC use with a Atlas Quantum Engineer Controller that killed DCC on my 1 horse ISL..However,I no longer have a sound equipped locomotive or a HO ISL since changing my primary scale from HO to N so I could hve a home layout and I still don't have any need for DCC... Now,I was the hostler on a DCC layout..I handle roughly 70 locomotives and by the time the ops session was over I felt like a accountant! That was the last time I signed up for that job!!! Larry.Columbus & Hocking Valley Ry.Serving the Industries of the Hocking Valley. .
DJ,Like I said I was a mite confused because I have done all of what you mention.
You do know the higher you set the speed knob the longer it takes for the engine to start moving.I am probably among the few that likes momentum.
Atlas and Athearn uses a 14:1 gear ratio..The difference is in the motor's circuit draw..However,I seen Genesis and Atlas locomotives play very well together.
One big problem with DC is the modeler.Way to many times I seen block overkill on small to medium size layouts..There is no real reason to block a industrial siding or every 36" piece of flex track...Many blocks can be eliminated by using power routed turnouts..Of course that goes against the magazine "experts" but,it does work..
On some of by 12"x12' ISL the whole layout is one big block with no bus and feeder wire since there is no need.
DC can be very simple or complex just like DCC.
My DCC operation was very basic.2 wires to the track and other then consisting no CV settings.
The only reason I went DCC was for sound.When sound came available for DC use with a Atlas Quantum Engineer Controller that killed DCC on my 1 horse ISL..However,I no longer have a sound equipped locomotive or a HO ISL since changing my primary scale from HO to N so I could hve a home layout and I still don't have any need for DCC...
Now,I was the hostler on a DCC layout..I handle roughly 70 locomotives and by the time the ops session was over I felt like a accountant!
That was the last time I signed up for that job!!!
tstage Sheldon, I believe you took Crandell's comment completely the wrong way. If I know Crandell, he only made the statement because he thought the fire of the conversation had died down too much. So, this was his attempt at humorously "throwing gas on the embers" in a tongue-'n-cheek manner.
Sheldon,
I believe you took Crandell's comment completely the wrong way. If I know Crandell, he only made the statement because he thought the fire of the conversation had died down too much. So, this was his attempt at humorously "throwing gas on the embers" in a tongue-'n-cheek manner.
Tongue-'n-cheek or not, I simply and politely explained why would not buy Digitrax even if I did go DCC.
I think too many people accept poor ergonomics on lots of "technology" today, not just DCC controllers.
Some tech geek who designs this stuff says this is how it has to be done so people just deal with it because they want the other features. Same is true of cell phones, stereo recievers, blue ray players, etc,etc.
Many of these designers like the "hidden code" idea of button pushing sequences and it does make the electronics cheaper and easier, at the cost of being less user friendly.
I'll keep my Stereo reciever that actually has a knob for the bass and a knob for the trebble rather than some 10 digit sequence to find and change those ajustments.
And I'll keep my train controllers with five big simple buttons rather than 32 that my fingers can't hardly get on. People talk about their kids running their DCC, My 3 year old Grand Daughter runs my trains with the TE with great skill.
ATLANTIC CENTRALselectorOh, and Digitrax systems are waaaaay better than all the rest....waaay.... And this too is just subjective personal opinion. I use Digitrax on four different layouts that operate on a regular basis. I don't like it one bit. If I ever changed my layout goals, or built a seperate second layout to which DCC would be a benifit (a possiblility I have always freely admitted), it would be almost anything other than Digitrax...
selectorOh, and Digitrax systems are waaaaay better than all the rest....waaay....
And this too is just subjective personal opinion. I use Digitrax on four different layouts that operate on a regular basis. I don't like it one bit. If I ever changed my layout goals, or built a seperate second layout to which DCC would be a benifit (a possiblility I have always freely admitted), it would be almost anything other than Digitrax...
I believe you took Crandell's comment completely the wrong way. Note the at the bottom of his post.
If I know Crandell, he only made the statement because he thought the fire of the conversation was dying down and this was his attempt at humorously "tossing gas on the embers" in a tongue-'n-cheek manner. Looks like it worked.
And this too is just subjective personal opinion. I use Digitrax on four different layouts that I operate on a regular basis. I don't like it one bit. If I ever changed my layout goals, or built a seperate second layout to which DCC would be a benifit (a possiblility I have always freely admitted), it would be almost anything other than Digitrax.
Features/ergonomics I don't care for:
Endless wheel throttle knobs
Small icon cluttered display
Small closely grouped buttons
Icons/criptic symbols identifing those buttons
Large number of buttons on controller
Plugging in to aquire/un-aquire (I know they have finally fixed this one - more expense for new hardware)
Small, hard to turn/see address dials on the UT4
Danglely "antenna/plug in" wire
All the different multi button sequences for various tasks
I have not had the oportunity to try all the others out there, but the few other brands I have tried or read up on all seem easier to use. I would like to actually run someones Easy DCC one time. It looks to be by far the most user friendly DCC wireless throttle.
What I do like about my Aristo Train Engineer DC Throttles is that they only have five big buttons for actual train control - FASTER, SLOWER, EAST, WEST, EMERGENCY STOP. They can be easily identified by feel without taking your eyes off the train.
When I first decided to investigate the Train Engineer, I was very skeptical about the push button control rather than a knob. I was actually able to borrow one and run a number of tests before deciding to go in that direction. I was very surprised by the ease of use and excelent control.
They control the motors with square wave, full voltage, pulse width modulation just like a DCC decoder, so slow speed is excelent. The very nature of how they work provides some momentum even with the momentum feature at its lowest (off) setting. Even when you start or stop "quickly", it is smooth and controlled.
I was able to modify the antennas with no loss of range into short, 4-1/2" "rubber duckies". Their cost was reasonable (and still is although it has increased some since I purchased mine).
For the era I model and the models I own, I have no problem with multiple powered units running together. Most of my diesels are one brand or run in one brand sets, but many I have tested run just fine withother brands.
And many of todays steam locos of different brands run together on DC quite well - Example, my Proto 2-8-8-2's and Spectrum 2-6-6-2's run flawlessly double headed one with the other.
Rating desired layout/operational features for ME (0-10):
Signaling - 10
CTC/ABS operation - 10
Sound - 0
Multiple trains/operators in close quarters - 2
Engine terminal work - 4
Prototype or nearly prototype train lengths - 10
Industrial switching right on the mainline - 2 (most of my industries are in industrial areas, like a seperate belt line)
Staging of lots of trains to enter/leave the modeled "scenes" - 10
Yard/Industrial area work - 9 (but remember its off the mainline)
My main freight yard is double ended and is actually wired so that each ladder is a seperate section (block). If a track is aligned at both ends, the Engineer needs both sections to enter or travel in that yard track - BUT if it is only aligned at one end, then the ladder that is aligned has control/access to that whole track and the other end does not. This allows two crews to switch the yard at the same time, one from each end. Yes, there are times when one must stop to let the other make a move. But in prototype operation this happens anyway. Yard masters do not generally allow multiple crews to be moving within a certian distance/territory of each other, even in a yard.
So while seemingly complex, my control system is easily built on the workbench in sections and connected to the layout. It offers lots of different operational options, and works well for me. With DC, good and sometimes complex design does make for easy use - quick and simple lack of design can often make DC hard to use.
Drilinetwhite One locomotive per year is a LOT less expensive than fifty decoders in one fell swoop. Get real. . Ok, lets get real. 50 decoders times $12.00 a piece comes to $600. That's an awfully cheap brass locomotive. I assume a nice brass loco is closer to $1,000 a piece or more?
twhite One locomotive per year is a LOT less expensive than fifty decoders in one fell swoop. Get real.
One locomotive per year is a LOT less expensive than fifty decoders in one fell swoop.
Get real.
Try $375 or so--about the same list price as most contemporary steamers. When you collect brass for a specific railroad like I do--as that's the only way you can GET steam locos for my prototype--, you learn how and where to shop.
And I'd be going for top-grade decoders, which are probably a lot more than $12.
It's nice to see that this discussion has at least remained such. I think that too many times, though, we forget that just because a system works for us, it's not necessarily the best for others. As a DC operator, I can see the benefits of DCC in many scenarios, especially for club layouts or home layouts where multiple operators gather - no one can deny that it's ideally suited to such situations. And if a DC operator can accomplish much the same results, more power to him.
My layout is a room-sized one, with no signalling and very simple wiring. I do have a few toggle switches to isolate passing tracks or sidings, but nothing complicated to wire or to operate. Two wires connect the power source to the track, and I use a tethered throttle to control one train at a time. This is the way the layout was designed to be operated - by one person controlling one train. There is no place for another train to be running, unattended (and, I might add, un-enjoyed), no unwanted sound effects, and no moment unsavoured - in other words, no train running with no one to appreciate it. This, however, is precisely the point that many tout as a benefit of DCC, but that I personally find disquieting. By all means enjoy your consisting and your sound effects, and even your trains running unattended, but enough of suggesting that those of us who enjoy something else are somehow missing out. I have everything which I need and also everything which I want. And I hope that all who have responded here are able to say the same.
(I guess that the foregoing seven pages worth of discussion means that I was wrong about the spelling error, eh?)
twhiteOne locomotive per year is a LOT less expensive than fifty decoders in one fell swoop. Get real.
DJO BRAKIE DJO im not supersmart like some of you guys but whats all the fussin about. paul3 made good sense. dc and dcc have got good points and bad. i didnt like fliping atlas slide switches and buttons to set up bloks every time i run 2 trains and want to switch cars. another bugger for me was if i copled my atlas engines together with athern engines they fight each other! with dcc speed match now 3 of my engines can run copled without jerking and the headlites stay on. i learned how to do momentom. my engines take off slow and take time to stop. so now dcc makes me feel like a real train engineer. DJ,I'm sorry but,I am a mite confused here. Why would you need to flip/slide a switch every time you switch cars? Are you also saying a locomotive on DC can't creep from tie to tie or have smooth slow starts? Are you saying by using "momentum" on a DC pack one can't have the same slow start/stop results as you do with DCC? brakie i was talking about flipping for the blok on my main tracks and sideings. all of my engines creep on dc but i cant run atlas and atherns together on dc without them bucking like cranky horses in a barn. something about the gear size i think. but on dcc its a peace of cake! the momentom for dcc is better than the dc powerpak because you can ajust it from super long take off to quik take off. my engines got hot after a while on dc momentom. with dcc i can set my engines to take off pulling a 30 car train and when i turn the control down to 0 it still takes the train over 1 minute to stop. like i said it makes me feel like a real engineer. on dcc i run engines not track bloks. i used to bad mouth dcc. now it lets me have fun.
BRAKIE DJO im not supersmart like some of you guys but whats all the fussin about. paul3 made good sense. dc and dcc have got good points and bad. i didnt like fliping atlas slide switches and buttons to set up bloks every time i run 2 trains and want to switch cars. another bugger for me was if i copled my atlas engines together with athern engines they fight each other! with dcc speed match now 3 of my engines can run copled without jerking and the headlites stay on. i learned how to do momentom. my engines take off slow and take time to stop. so now dcc makes me feel like a real train engineer. DJ,I'm sorry but,I am a mite confused here. Why would you need to flip/slide a switch every time you switch cars? Are you also saying a locomotive on DC can't creep from tie to tie or have smooth slow starts? Are you saying by using "momentum" on a DC pack one can't have the same slow start/stop results as you do with DCC?
DJO im not supersmart like some of you guys but whats all the fussin about. paul3 made good sense. dc and dcc have got good points and bad. i didnt like fliping atlas slide switches and buttons to set up bloks every time i run 2 trains and want to switch cars. another bugger for me was if i copled my atlas engines together with athern engines they fight each other! with dcc speed match now 3 of my engines can run copled without jerking and the headlites stay on. i learned how to do momentom. my engines take off slow and take time to stop. so now dcc makes me feel like a real train engineer.
im not supersmart like some of you guys but whats all the fussin about. paul3 made good sense. dc and dcc have got good points and bad. i didnt like fliping atlas slide switches and buttons to set up bloks every time i run 2 trains and want to switch cars. another bugger for me was if i copled my atlas engines together with athern engines they fight each other! with dcc speed match now 3 of my engines can run copled without jerking and the headlites stay on. i learned how to do momentom. my engines take off slow and take time to stop. so now dcc makes me feel like a real train engineer.
DJ,I'm sorry but,I am a mite confused here.
Why would you need to flip/slide a switch every time you switch cars?
Are you also saying a locomotive on DC can't creep from tie to tie or have smooth slow starts?
Are you saying by using "momentum" on a DC pack one can't have the same slow start/stop results as you do with DCC?
I think Dave hit it. With DCC, the operational aspect of the layout is completely independent of any track wiring or power distribution. If you model a specific prototype and you design the DC system to support that, great, it will work just fine. But for someone who is more of a freelancer, what if you do this, and then after several years of satisfying operating sessions decide to try something different? Either you rewire, or you work within the limitations established by the fixed block locations. So there you have it - building 'the big one' or the 'last one' and have a fixed operating scheme in mind, well, then the more rigid design of DC control won't be a problem. But not set for life, the flexibility of DCC will come in handy should you want to change operating schemes sometime down the line.
davidmbedard twhiteIn my case, I've got close to 50 brass locos that I've spent a lot of time fine-tuning to run extremely well on my DC layout, and the thought of retrofitting all of them (because I run ALL of them) with decoders not only sounds prohibitively expensive, but pretty darned 'iffy' once I get into them to do the retrofitting. Tom Poor argument. If one can afford 50 brass locos, there is no reason they cannot afford decoders for them. Consider for the price of one of them, you are into a top-end DCC system and many decoders. David B
twhiteIn my case, I've got close to 50 brass locos that I've spent a lot of time fine-tuning to run extremely well on my DC layout, and the thought of retrofitting all of them (because I run ALL of them) with decoders not only sounds prohibitively expensive, but pretty darned 'iffy' once I get into them to do the retrofitting. Tom
Poor argument. If one can afford 50 brass locos, there is no reason they cannot afford decoders for them. Consider for the price of one of them, you are into a top-end DCC system and many decoders.
If you think I bought all 50 of those brass locos yesterday, you are definitely in need of a Reality Check. I'm 70 years old, I bought my first--and still operational--brass loco at the age of 20. Fifty years ago. Which averages out to about one a year, if you do the math.
dehusman Reagardless of the complexity of the wiring or how complex the control circuits, you still can't put 2 DC engines in the same track block and control them independently. Ain't gonna happen. DCC its no big deal. Anyway you cut it, in DC the control is divided into descrete track segments, in DCC the control is assigned to descrete vehicles. For the vast majority of model railroad operation you can make the DC track segments small enough that its a non-issue or you can mange the situation to avoid getting two engines into the same track segment. With DCC its not something that has to be considered at all.
Reagardless of the complexity of the wiring or how complex the control circuits, you still can't put 2 DC engines in the same track block and control them independently. Ain't gonna happen. DCC its no big deal.
Anyway you cut it, in DC the control is divided into descrete track segments, in DCC the control is assigned to descrete vehicles.
For the vast majority of model railroad operation you can make the DC track segments small enough that its a non-issue or you can mange the situation to avoid getting two engines into the same track segment. With DCC its not something that has to be considered at all.
The biggest area that you see the difference between DC and DCC that Dave is talking about is in an engine terminal or facility. There is no way that DC can compare to DCC when it comes to storing, moving or hostling engines around a servicing facility. 2,3, or 4 locos on one storage track. Pick the one (call them A, B, C & D) you want to move, select it on your throttle and move it. If you want to move Engine B from the fuel track to a train in the yard, then select A, move it of the way from Track 1 to Track 2, then select B and move it to the train in the yard. If both A and B and C are parked on the same track 1 inch apart you'll have a difficult time doing it in DC, but not in DCC.
Nevin:
Small or large, track-sliders are an absolute boon to we steam runners, especially locos that only pick up from one side of the rail. All of my brass--locos and tenders-- have been equipped with them, from my 4-6-0 clear up to my big articulateds, and the result in response and smooth running has been absolutely remarkable.
For a while, while I was converting, I almost got the feeling that I was keeping Tomar Industries in business, LOL! Best thing I ever discovered.
When I was there he was much farther along with converting the diesel fleet than the steam. The steam that had been converted tended to be rather large and articulated , but ran very well. I would say about 30% of the steam fleet had been converted. Both the owner and his friends are clearly exceptional modelers who have spent a lot time taking apart and improving brass locomotives. So these were really tuned engines to begin with.
I have had some problems when I have converted a small HO 0-6-0 to DCC so I know what you are describing. I went to track sliders to improve pickup. My layout requires small steam so dealing with electrical pick-up issues is going to be a problem for me either way. - Nevin
NevinW Reading this discussion reminds me of a couple of visits I made to a relatively famous large layout for operations sessions about 7 years ago. This layout is extremely well done and was a DC system the first time I operated on it. It has been on the cover of MR and RMC. It had a large master control panel and one person (who was the designer of the panel) manned it for the entire operating session. I had a lot of fun operating on the railroad. Afterward we had a long discussion about DC vs. DCC. The owner concluded he was going to stick with DC for all of the usual reasons sited in this thread but particularly the problem of owning a large number of beautiful brass steam engines that he didn't want to install decoders in loomed large. Fast forward to 2 years later and he had converted to DCC. The same guy who had designed the main control panel was now installing decoders. The master panel was still there but it was disconnected and unmanned. It was the same beautiful layout but everyone agreed that the switch to DCC had enhanced the operations potential of this railroad. I think that one can have a very good DC model railroad that is fun to operate, but DCC definitely enhances the fun operations potential IMO. - Nevin
Reading this discussion reminds me of a couple of visits I made to a relatively famous large layout for operations sessions about 7 years ago. This layout is extremely well done and was a DC system the first time I operated on it. It has been on the cover of MR and RMC. It had a large master control panel and one person (who was the designer of the panel) manned it for the entire operating session. I had a lot of fun operating on the railroad. Afterward we had a long discussion about DC vs. DCC. The owner concluded he was going to stick with DC for all of the usual reasons sited in this thread but particularly the problem of owning a large number of beautiful brass steam engines that he didn't want to install decoders in loomed large. Fast forward to 2 years later and he had converted to DCC. The same guy who had designed the main control panel was now installing decoders. The master panel was still there but it was disconnected and unmanned. It was the same beautiful layout but everyone agreed that the switch to DCC had enhanced the operations potential of this railroad. I think that one can have a very good DC model railroad that is fun to operate, but DCC definitely enhances the fun operations potential IMO. - Nevin
Neven:
One question--how did that large number of brass locos work with DCC decoders in them? Not trying to be argumentative (I've gotten in enough trouble on this thread, LOL!), but I've heard horror stories of smooth-running brass locos turning into jerky, quirky prima donnas because of pickup problems once converted to DCC.
In my case, I've got close to 50 brass locos that I've spent a lot of time fine-tuning to run extremely well on my DC layout, and the thought of retrofitting all of them (because I run ALL of them) with decoders not only sounds prohibitively expensive, but pretty darned 'iffy' once I get into them to do the retrofitting.
I suppose if I were modeling the present era instead of the 1940's and running nothing but diesel, I'd be prone to try DCC, but at my age, the thought of literally 'starting all over again' with the fleet that I've got just doesn't sound worth it.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
DrilineBRAKIEI can wire blocks on my layouts by using Atlas selectors and plastic rail joiners on the common rail.. That's fine if you're a noobie...
BRAKIEI can wire blocks on my layouts by using Atlas selectors and plastic rail joiners on the common rail..
That's fine if you're a noobie...
mikesmowers I hooked up my PSX-AR auto reverser yesterday and it is simply fantastic. I just can't get over how well it works, I do not understand how but it does. I simply wanted to brag a little on how well DCC works. Mike
I hooked up my PSX-AR auto reverser yesterday and it is simply fantastic. I just can't get over how well it works, I do not understand how but it does. I simply wanted to brag a little on how well DCC works. Mike
I'm assuming the OP's PSX-AR auto reverser automatically adjusts the polarity for reverse loops.
The DCC discussion y'all are having is entertaining, but I'm trying to figure out the part about wanting to have a reverse loop on a model railroad. Modeling the end terminal of passenger train operations, and the need to turn the train to keep the cars in the same order, I understand. Modeling a unit coal train while its under the tipple and on a balloon track, I understand. I never understood what other reasons there would be to turn an entire train, just to send it going back to where it came from.
Just avoid all the toggles and switches, then the need to invest time and money in DCC, by not having the reverse loop to begin with.
Why complicate the simple and end up with a rat nest of wires? One doesn't have to be newbie to use selectors since they make installing blocks easy..I even know of a club that uses 'em in their yard.
I found and use DCC for about a year and decided it was ok but,I decided for a 1 horse ISL DCC was overkill.I sold my Empire Builder II to another guy and he sold it after building a rather large ISL.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL...Compairing their layouts to yours is the same as compairing mine to yours. Its not a DC vs DCC issue. Its do you want signals and remote turnouts and dispatcher control - all those things take wire, hardware and money with DC or DCC.
Okay, I can see that. I don't have signalling and block detection, so in that respect, I understand that you are using a DC system to largely automate a layout. It would be quite involved in DCC as well.
Thanks, Sheldon.
Actually I found computers,gaming systems,cell phones,my oild VCR,DVD, digital tv and my micowave easy to use.
Silver PilotOr if you're 70+ years old and are, to paraphrase Bobby Unser, an analog mind stuck in a digital world. Brakie, Sheldon & TT probably haven't figured out the whole digital TV thing yet either; We should all be impressed that they've figured out computers and the internet. Though we know that TT hasn't figured out digital cameras and how to post pictures yet.
Actually, I'm 52, a Residential Designer specializing in Historic Restoration. In a past life as an industrial electrical construction designer and project manager I designed and installed some of the first installs of Programable Logic Controllers in the early 1980's.
I have designed and built HiFi speakers systems and was on the cuting edge of surround sound in the early eightes as well. I am an accomplished Electrician, Carpenter, Plumber, HVAC tech, and darn good auto mechanic if it was built before 1985.
I don't fear technoligy and I'm not in love with it either. It's a tool. Newer is not always better, sometimes its just different.
And, I restored this house, orginally built in 1901, which has since appeared of HGTV's Restore America and did more than half the work myself. Technology? The house has X10 home automation and I have a killer home theater with speakers I designed and built.
And the trains are above the six car garage you can see part of in the background.
selector I have doubts that I would be in the hobby if I had to wire my current layout to operate under the system shown by you, Sheldon. I, too, admire your careful planning, your learning and understanding that led to your ability to figure out and construct this operating system for any layout, and the execution is waaaaaay better than what I can do...and have. But honestly, DCC made it so simple by comparison, and then the operation of a siding for me is simply to slide the leading set of point rails so that the closest train can take it, reline the points for the main, wait for the meet, and then line the next set of points to rejoin the main when the higher priority train has gone by. So, I am operating points as you do, but with a skewer, and I have to push no buttons. -Crandell
I have doubts that I would be in the hobby if I had to wire my current layout to operate under the system shown by you, Sheldon. I, too, admire your careful planning, your learning and understanding that led to your ability to figure out and construct this operating system for any layout, and the execution is waaaaaay better than what I can do...and have. But honestly, DCC made it so simple by comparison, and then the operation of a siding for me is simply to slide the leading set of point rails so that the closest train can take it, reline the points for the main, wait for the meet, and then line the next set of points to rejoin the main when the higher priority train has gone by. So, I am operating points as you do, but with a skewer, and I have to push no buttons.
Crandell,I am a simple man that believes in simple ways and a firmed believer in the KISS method.
I can wire blocks on my layouts by using Atlas selectors and plastic rail joiners on the common rail..
How about one wire to each block?
It doesn't get any easier then that.
Crandell, I get it, if that works for you great! But many in DCC are spending big bucks on decoder controlled turnouts, computer interfaces for CTC, etc, etc. They have more than "two" wires.
Compairing their layouts to yours is the same as compairing mine to yours. Its not a DC vs DCC issue. Its do you want signals and remote turnouts and dispatcher control - all those things take wire, hardware and money with DC or DCC.
In fact, my secondary turnouts are all ground throws just like they would be on the prototype. But ones on the main, that would be tower controlled, are just that, tower controlled with complete interlocking signals and all. In fact, you can't even throw a turnout while the train in in the interlocking territory just like on the prototype.
Its all about different goals. But so many DCC users/supporters have come to believe it is the perfect solution to every layout. While I would look at many layout plans or their owners goal "list" and say they need DCC, that is not true in every case.
One more thought,
Apples to apples - The layout shown in the picture fills a whole basement and has eight panels similar to the one shown. Four trains can move freely about the mainline and meet at any of five major towns. Trains begin and end in two stagging yards. There is also a branch and narrow/dual guage that has two additonal throttles. As well as a large stub end terminal with freight and passenger yards and industries. The two staging yards are connected by a helix for "display operation". It has six wireless throttles.
If this layout was Wireless DCC it would require way more than two wires, and, I'm sorry but the power bus connected to the layout in 15 or more places is more than two wires. not to mention that several power districts, circuit breakers and possibly boosters would be desired. Not to mention loco net connections, wireless tranceivers and the like. All which would need to be "wired".
And my own layout, 800 sq ft room, 8 scale miles of double track, 10 wireless thorttles, 25' long eight track freight yard, staging yards, CTC panel, signals, tower panels for turnouts at interlockings, etc,etc, was going to be a lot of wiring DCC or DC - I know that. No way two wires was going to do it.
OK, I know this is more than many of you have plans for, or, you plan to work up to it "slowly". I've been at this 40 years, this is my dream layout and I know excatly what I want. I don't need or want to go at it "slowly" or figure it out as I go. I have an intergrated plan and am under construction.
DC or DCC it would require a ton of hardware and wire. This way intergates the construction, costs less total and meets my needs without paying for features I don't need or want.
First, Thank you.
I have never claimed it was easy to install, just easy to use.
But, its not as "complicated" as it looks.
That relay panel was built at a workbench in under 2 hours, and installed and connceted to the existing layout wiring in about 1 hour.
Actually the "hard" work is the planning, and I know this is the part most of these guys don't get, or don't want to do.
What I don't want is to just "wing it" as I go along. I have a very detailed plan for most aspects of my railroad, and except for adapting scenery as needed, I follow it pretty close.
I have no interest in the way many operate today with DCC, where three or four guys just pull trains out on the main and go where ever watching out for the train ahead.
I like CTC/ABS mainline running, I like that big railroad feel. Engineers on the prototype get their marching orders and follow signals, we do that here too.
AND, as I have explained, I do like "display" running. And dispite quite a bit of research into computerized block control, I decided the simplest and best solution to display running was some simple cutoffs that turned the mainline into 4 seperate deticated loops, turn them on and let them go.
OR, when I 'm by myself, a few trains can cruise the main while I switch the yard.
It suits my needs. Not to stir this up more, but I suspect many in the hobby today do not have a clear set of operational or layout goals. And that's fine as long as they are having fun.
The layout shown in the picture is operated at least once a month by our group. Many in the group have DCC at home, they all have remarked about how easy it is. Yes, it has a small learning curve as does any layout or control system. But, it really is easy and requires very minimum "input" as you walk around with your train.
With DCC, you push a number of buttons to "aquire" the loco. We push one and off we go. We push a few more as we walk around, you don't, but likely you still throw turnout switches by one means or another. We do that as well and it does at least 50% of our cab assignments with that one action you will be doing anyway.
So I hope this gives some of those new to this discussion some better insite into advanced DC.
And for those who don't know, I have looked at using DCC several times in the last 15 years. And everytime I got to what would be required on top of the DCC system for CTC/ABS features, I said what do I really need DCC for?
Mike C.
I agree with DJ. After 5 pages let's just let it go and get back to enjoying the hobby, There is plenty of room for us all.
Joe
Paul and Silver Pilot,
Here are some photos of the system I built for a friends layout. It is a single track system works slightly differently, likely more like Chuck's discription but again with Aristo wireless throttles like mine.
The first photo is a picture of the panel for an intire town/passing siding area with industies, etc. Two opposing trains can approach the siding one takes the siding, The other can proceed through, then allowing the other to proceed. That whole operation requires pushing two buttons and throwing two ground throw turnouts.
The second photo is the under layout wiring required for that whole section. The only connections from that under layout panel to the layout arefour throttle bus conncections, four power feeds to track and two, two wire connections to contacts on the ground throws. The only connections between the under layout panel and the control panel are four CAT5 cables. these panels are built on the workbench and require only the hookups I discribed above, plus a control power feed.
Again, the only soldering is those little PB's on the control panel.
Silver Pilot Use your layout as an example. How much distance must be between trains using the same route and how does control get changed from cab A to cab B.?
Use your layout as an example. How much distance must be between trains using the same route and how does control get changed from cab A to cab B.?
Since my layout, and train lengths, are different from Sheldon's, let me give you a slightly different outlook.
The Tomikawa Tani Tetsudo is operated by the staff-and-ticket system, so only one train may be on the railroad between stations/control points (not all of which are passing sidings, but all of which allow meets and passes.) This agrees with my prototype (JNR Katsuda-sen) which was still operating staff and ticket (with lower-quadrant semaphores and manual interlocking) in the 1960s. The TTT, as a pure point-to-point route, does not lend itself to continuous 'display' operation.
At present, trains operating in the netherworld can operate one per through route through each of the zones I have operational. This is sufficient to position trains where they need to be to operate the master schedule now, and will be sufficient when the JNR portion of the railroad is fully built out and operational. When visible track is built, the spacing of trains in the same direction will be two signal sections, which is also the total length of the single track between Tomikawa and Haruyama.
If two trains proceeding in the same direction will use the same track at station Alpha, but different tracks at station Omega, the following train is held by the auto-stop section at Alpha until the signal clears. The two tracks at Omega are set to different controllers (possibly at the Master, aka CTC, panel) and track power to the single track is routed by contacts slaved to the switch points. Sometime between arrival at Alpha and departure, the rotary switch controlling power to the Down track at Alpha will have to be turned to connect it to that train's arrival track at Omega - one click, by feel, possibly on the CTC panel. This will not change the controller powering the train, only the route by which power reaches the motor(s) of that train.
By no coincidence whatsoever, the distance between control points is just about three times the length of my longest train, the desired spacing if following the JNR's prototype practices on my chosen route in 1964.
If I simply wish to orbit a train in each direction to entertain mundane visitors, I can set six rotary switches for each train (12 total) and turn them loose under separate control. For each orbit, I will have to change four total switch positions, one at each end of the two single track sections. The rotaries, once set, will remain untouched. Total mainline length is about 50 meters - four scale kilometers or 20 fast-time kilometers (5:1 clock.)
Incidentally, the Japanese version of TTTO doesn't allow for trains to be run in sections. Each one has its very own timetable-authorized slot - even if it actually runs only once or twice a month. If a section DID have to be run (or a special movement such as the Imperial train) it would be given the number, and authority, of some 'not operating today' train on the timetable.
[EDIT: Yep, Paul, that's the monster I was referring to. Running a train with that thing would probably be enough to drive me back to modeling warships!]
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - TTTO, 24/30)
Evidently my post was the one that has been referred to as the "Cheap Shot" post, and if so, I definitely apologize for the problems it has caused.
What I meant to state--and it was either mis-read or I didn't state it well--was that I'm very glad that DCC works for those who like it. It just doesn't work for my particular situation. Different strokes for different folks.
Sorry it caused all the ruckus.
tomikawaTT,You mean this control panel?
And the back:
This is Cab 7 of 8 mainline DC cab panels we had at the South Shore Model Railway Club. This particular panel was built in the late 1970's along with cabs 5, 6, & 8 when the layout size was doubled. Cabs 1 to 4 were built in the early 1950's. They were in continuous use until 1998 when we moved to Hingham, MA. All 8 mainline cabs had around 50 toggles. Plus, we had 2 trolley panels, 1 narrow gauge panel, 12 yard panels, and 2 switching area panels. Most of these other panels averaged 10 to 20 toggles each.
Fun, eh?
I do respect the heck out of people who can do this stuff with DC. I know the kind of effort it takes. But I'd rather be doing other things...and I like working with electrical stuff.
Sheldon,MZL and it's like has been around for 70 years? Since 1940?And please don't bring in soldering tortoise machines. You have to do that regardless of the control system. With a DC layout, you have to do that and solder toggles/buttons. With DCC you can avoid this extra soldering if you wish to (obviously, hard-wired decoders are the exception here, but one can buy only DCC ready or DCC installed locos).While I have not operated a true MZL-like layout, I have seen DC layouts like the North Shore Model Railroad Club in Wakefield, MA and the Bay State Society of Model Engineers in Roslindale, MA. Both, before DCC, used tethered and wireless DC control systems (BSSME has three layouts: N, HO, & O). I've also been under the Museum of Science and Industry's HO layout which uses elevator control systems to run it's DC layout. I've used Aristo's radio system at the defunct & long gone Norton, MA club with rotary knobs. I don't have a lot of 1st hand knowledge in the more exotic DC systems I freely admit. But I do bring a lot of DCC and more basic DC knowledge to the table.
As to the "cheap shot"... You managed to stay out of it for 50 whole minutes...amd just 15 min. after the "cheap shot" post. And the supposed "cheap shot" was a statement of fact for many modelers. I believe that toggle flipping is more common than you think. Yet, I managed to keep from posting at all to the DC-only thread on the Electrical Forum here at MR despite numerous and real "cheap shots" from the DC users.
The big difference between a DT400 and your system is that once I plug my address into the DCC throttle, I don't have to push any more buttons no matter how long I run the train or how many other trains are running.
Yeah, I'd hate for my cat to get loose and find a complex DC system. It would take forever to fix it. With DCC you just connect the 2 wires back up and you're running. A complex DC system actually sounds neat to me, but it's still limited to the configuration tha was set up some time in the past. The main difference with DCC is you can do the same things and more without any wiring, button pushing, or switch throwing except for the cab. Kind of reminds me of the Indiana Jones Scene when he confronts an swordsman who dazzles him with a show before attacking. Indiana does a duh look, pulls out his gun and shoots him. The Swordsman being the DC guy of course. Look at me and what I can do. DCC says Just do it and boom. (Here's the scene for those who never saw it)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DzcOCyHDqc
However If a complex DC system runs well and the user's are happy with it I see no reason to change it, unless a change of the layout is planned.
Springfield PA
Soooo, technically speaking you're not flipping toggle switches. Instead you're pushing buttons along the path of the train to make a cab selection. Semantics?
Your posts make it sound like having walkaround DC cabs so you're "not anchored to control panels" is some new, amazing technology. Its been around for 30+ years and wireless DC is not new either. You talk about being able to install an additional set of pushbuttons "at any logical place they would need to change a cab assignment" as some big benefit of such a DC system. I helped build a DC control system 30 years ago that allowed multiple control panels to control a block. It wasn't difficult to do, just a lot of wiring. It's called dispatching and part of the operating scheme design for a layout. The club I was in had 6 mainline cabs, mutiple dispatching panels etc. It's how it was designed to be operated.
Walkaround DC control is easy. With tethered control you can just add a set of plug ins any "logical place" they're needed. Wireless is just some additional hardware.
What it really sounds like is that you've traded one type of complexity for a more complex system that you believe is better because it means not flipping toggle switches. To each their own.
The bunnies are great.
I don't want to beat this dead horse, but some apparently were not around when we put him down the first few times.
The book will be finished soon, if things go at least close to the current plan and then I'll just e-mail them a copy.
My layout is a double track continous mainline that will be about 8 scale miles long when complete.
Train lengths are typically 18-25'. Each signal block (and primary electrcal section) is about 2-3 times that, some are longer. So the short answer is the following train will not get a green until the section ahead is empty.
At each interlocking along the mainline there is a panel for turnouts and cab selection which is all done with small lighted pushbuttons. All mainline turnouts, crossovers and diverging routes are selected with the touch of one button. In other words, with a complete interlocking of two oposite crossovers and a diverging route to lets say a yard or branch, one only needs to push one button and all conflicting turnout routes are cleared to the desired route.
With the touch of one more button, the wireless cab in your hand is assigned to the next section.
The trackage through the interlocking requires no cab selection, that is automatic based on turnout position. And is done in such a way as to create a buffer section that prevents a train for over running its assigned trackage.
If you fail to properly assign your cab or align the route, the train will simply stop in the interlocking. It will not be "taken over" by anyone elses throttle.
The layout is designed to support two east bound and two west bound trains on the main, and then has 6 other cabs used in yards, industrial areas and a single track branch line.
The key here is that the layout, signal system, operational scheme and physical configuration are intergrated and designed at the same time. I realize not everyone wants/needs/can do/is interested/etc/etc in doing this.
I have designed and installed this system on an existing single track layout replacing an old rotary switch/teathered throttle system. On that layout it works a little different. It is hard to explain in words, easy to demenstrate.
Back to my layout - operators can assign their cab to a section at the interlocking control panel on either end of that section. That is why its done with lighted pushbuttons. OR they can also be assigned at a central dispatchers panel.
This system uses less than half the number of what you would call "blocks" than any conventional toggle switch/rotary switch cab control system. And, operators are not anchored to control panels but rather walk around with their wireless throttle just like a DCC layout. At any logical place they would need to change a cab assignment, an additional set of buttons can be installed, there is no limit on the number of sets of buttons a section (block) can have.
The signaling, including complete working interlocking signals, is all intergrated into the cab selction and turnout route control functions. you have your choice of full blown 3 color signals with approach signals or simplified quasi three color (using only two woking colors on each head) for less expense and easier wiring.
This only begins to explain it. I am writing a book to document it all, hope to have it done this spring. Maybe you will see it a magazine.
davidmbedard ....dont make me bring out my dead horse. David B
....dont make me bring out my dead horse.
OK Dave--
Having not seen this before--where did you find this lovely Gif--mmmm?
Silver Pilot Sheldon, With the system you've described who far behind the 1st train can a second train operate along the same length of track, with the same route? Think of a passenger train in 2 sections. They're both going to the same destination, how far behind the first section is the second section, with independent speed control?
With the system you've described who far behind the 1st train can a second train operate along the same length of track, with the same route? Think of a passenger train in 2 sections. They're both going to the same destination, how far behind the first section is the second section, with independent speed control?
Again, that is a function of layout design and layout operational goals. No answer I give you would be universally correct. On the prototype even a following section would be at least one signal block behind in CTC or ABS controlled teritory. That's the kinds of modeling I am interested in, I want working signals, above and more importantly than the other features DCC has to offer.
I understand those of you who have different goals, but fact is, with the system I use and the size/scope of the layout I am building, I can have all the control I need and signals for what it would cost just to control the trains with DCC, before you even thought about signals.
Not wanting sound, not needing consisting, and being happy with whatever other compromises, what I have gets me where I want to be for much less. And provides the type of user interface I prefer. I personally dislike most of the DCC handhelds on the market and the endless sequences of button pushing to assign, unassign, consist, etc,etc. you push buttons on a DT400, I push a few puttons on panels spread around the layout, not really much different from where I sit.
Paul3 Sheldon,Many people still flip toggles or turn rotary switches. Please don't try to pretend otherwise. I agree it's not a great way to run a railroad, but it's simple to understand and execute. As you know, it's been the subject of many books and magazine articles over the past 70 years or so. Toggle flipping, for many of us, was the best we could do at the time, and for those that won't change it will remain so. Not everyone is an electrical engineer or electronics hobbyists that enjoys creating circuit designs or even soldering. There's a lot of people in this hobby that just want to run trains and don't have access to almost free electronic gear, a 4-year electrical degree, or 10+ years experience in the electronics field. Somehow, I'm thinking that the electrical hobbyists are not the majority of model railroaders.
Sheldon,Many people still flip toggles or turn rotary switches. Please don't try to pretend otherwise. I agree it's not a great way to run a railroad, but it's simple to understand and execute. As you know, it's been the subject of many books and magazine articles over the past 70 years or so. Toggle flipping, for many of us, was the best we could do at the time, and for those that won't change it will remain so.
Not everyone is an electrical engineer or electronics hobbyists that enjoys creating circuit designs or even soldering. There's a lot of people in this hobby that just want to run trains and don't have access to almost free electronic gear, a 4-year electrical degree, or 10+ years experience in the electronics field. Somehow, I'm thinking that the electrical hobbyists are not the majority of model railroaders.
And systems like Chuck and I use have been well documented in those same 70 years. And are in fact no harder to build than those with rotary switches or toggles for every "block", which is what we DON'T have or need with our type of systems. The only soldering I do in building my system is the connections to the very small lighted pushbuttons that control turnouts and cab assignments. All the rest is screw terminals and crimp sleeves with larger, easy to work with 16-18 guage wire or terminal strips with CAT5 cable. No more soldering than some guy with 50-100 slow motion switch machines and mini toggles and LED's on a DCC layout.
And, if you have never operated on a MZL layout, or a jumper plug layout or a multi cab sectional layout like the DC portion of K-10, how can you judge it? I have operated a number of DCC layouts.
Paul3twhite,Okay...but let me put it this way: This is a clearly titled DCC thread. Why are there the usual contingent of DC users like yourself, tomikawaTT, & Sheldon all posting here? What persuaded all of you to click on the link in the first place? Other than for the entertainment, that is.
I was a quiet observer until the DC/toggle switch cheap shot thing, after that I made one simple statement and then just answered comments and questions. And still gave full credit to the fact that DCC has specific advantages for some people/layouts/needs/wants.
Paul3jeffrey-wimberly,I don't see why reverse loops cannot be controlled automatically as with DCC. Most people never tried because of the work & expense involved, but using detector circuits of one kind or another wouldn't be that hard to trip a relay to reverse polarity. Even little infrared beams would work.
They can be, I've seen it done, and the orginal MZL makes them pretty seemless anyway.
Brother Bedard,
ROFLMAO!!!
In one not so long ago thread, a poster had a photo of one of his club's block assignment panels. I will be quick to admit that if I was faced by a 400-switch array of toggles I'd change systems in a New York minute!
My version of MZL differs from Sheldon's in that I do use rotary switches - but not many, and they don't have to be turned often.
I also use toggles - to control structure lighting, or as manual point throwers for non-powered switches. (Even manual switches need track power routing contacts - and not just for hot frog control.)
Note that I don't recommend MZL for new or inexperienced modelers, or for anyone who is happy with their present system, DC or DCC. Like my choice of prototype, my choice of control system was driven by a very personal list of givens and druthers.
Above all, have fun.
Silver PilotSorry Sheldon, but it seems that your comment about being able to run multiple trains in DC without flipping toggle switches is misleading, based on your response quoted above. Pushbuttons, toggle switches or a dispatcher at a CTC panel - some kind of switch is being thrown at some point in the process of running multiple trains. As the Mythbusters would say - "Myth: You can run multiple trains on a DC system without throwing switches - BUSTED"
Do you throw switches to align turnouts on your DCC layout? My turnout controls do most, and in some cases, all of the power routing for the cabs. This is a function of layout design and desired operational schemes, not a function of DC or DCC.
And, there are DC systems other than what I use, computerized block control for one, that do exactly that, run multiple trains without throwing any switches.
The point is this, the image of someone franticly flipping toggles on a central control panel to control several trains is an untrue image of many advanced DC cab control systems that have been developed over the years.
Fact is I can walk around with my train and push a few buttons at junctions and interlockings to align turnouts and route power without refering to or being at a central panel and without "doubling back". Another operator can follow behind me and ajust his routes as needed.
tstage Time honored or not, the above sure begs the question whether DC is cheaper than DCC in this particular situation. Sheldon, you've noted several times in other similar discussion threads that the cost of outfitting a large amount of locomotives would get expensive. For $1,800, I could outfit 100 locomotives with NCE D13SJR decoders and buy a good DCC system and STILL have a good chunk of change left over in my pocket. (Thankfully, I only have a dozen or so locomotives. LOL!) ATLANTIC CENTRALTrack plans and control systems should be tailored to the needs/wants of the user. There is no perfect track plan and no perfect control system. I would agree with you totally on this.
Time honored or not, the above sure begs the question whether DC is cheaper than DCC in this particular situation.
Sheldon, you've noted several times in other similar discussion threads that the cost of outfitting a large amount of locomotives would get expensive. For $1,800, I could outfit 100 locomotives with NCE D13SJR decoders and buy a good DCC system and STILL have a good chunk of change left over in my pocket. (Thankfully, I only have a dozen or so locomotives. LOL!)
ATLANTIC CENTRALTrack plans and control systems should be tailored to the needs/wants of the user. There is no perfect track plan and no perfect control system.
I would agree with you totally on this.
I agree its not cheaper in this case and I made no such claim about K-10 or this type of system, I simply pointed out its an old idea that works well in some cases. For the type of operation K-10 is, its a good system, since they are a public layout where people bring their own stuff.
We don' wan' no stinkin' flame wars......okay?
Surely, a person can be pleased and compleat with a DC-operated and silent railroad. If he says as much, great! He's enjoying the hobby, which is hopefully everyone's goal. Complicated, expensive, simple and cheap, who cares...we all determine our way ahead.
Similarly, if DCC makes your experience 'the greatest', as the title of the thread says it is, then that is the judgement of those who are not squarely in the experience I described in the previous paragraph.
The bench is plenty long for all of us to enjoy the trains that pass in front of us, guys.
I have been reading on other forums for about two days now that MTH seems to be ready to offer their HO engines in DCC, or DCC-ready, beginning in April some time. This can only be true if they have reconsidered their original apparent position about sticking strictly to their DCS control systems.
It's about time....
ATLANTIC CENTRALcudaken K-10 model train has two DC loops on his layout. Each loop has around 10 MRC 9500's. Each one controls around 30 feet of track, then plastic rail joiners, then next 9500 picks up from there. Cuda Ken This too is a time honored method of DC control that works very well for some layout designs. Sheldon
cudaken K-10 model train has two DC loops on his layout. Each loop has around 10 MRC 9500's. Each one controls around 30 feet of track, then plastic rail joiners, then next 9500 picks up from there. Cuda Ken
K-10 model train has two DC loops on his layout. Each loop has around 10 MRC 9500's. Each one controls around 30 feet of track, then plastic rail joiners, then next 9500 picks up from there.
Cuda Ken
This too is a time honored method of DC control that works very well for some layout designs.
So, if my arithmetic is correct:
(2) loops with (10) MRC 9500 power packs @ ~$90*/ea (discounted) = $1,800.
*[Prices for the MRC 9500s actually were anywhere from $87.59 to $145.98 ea. That would give a total range of $1,750 - $2,920 for all (20) twenty.]
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I use a pushbuttion system that allows the few "cab asignments" that are needed, to be made from multiple locoations as you walk around with your train, just like wireless DCC. And, my throttles are wireless DC throttles from Aristo Craft. OR, on the mainline, as the Dispatcher aligns your route and gives you clearance, his actions at the CTC panel assign your power for you. All you do is run the train. Signaling and CTC operation is a big part of my model railroading goals. My signal/CTC system is built right into my control system and my turnout control system. It is all intergrated. OR, for display runnng during an open house, deticated routes are assigned and trains can just run, on their own. Sheldon
I use a pushbuttion system that allows the few "cab asignments" that are needed, to be made from multiple locoations as you walk around with your train, just like wireless DCC. And, my throttles are wireless DC throttles from Aristo Craft.
OR, on the mainline, as the Dispatcher aligns your route and gives you clearance, his actions at the CTC panel assign your power for you. All you do is run the train. Signaling and CTC operation is a big part of my model railroading goals. My signal/CTC system is built right into my control system and my turnout control system. It is all intergrated.
OR, for display runnng during an open house, deticated routes are assigned and trains can just run, on their own.
Sorry Sheldon, but it seems that your comment about being able to run multiple trains in DC without flipping toggle switches is misleading, based on your response quoted above. Pushbuttons, toggle switches or a dispatcher at a CTC panel - some kind of switch is being thrown at some point in the process of running multiple trains. As the Mythbusters would say - "Myth: You can run multiple trains on a DC system without throwing switches - BUSTED"
John (UP 4-12-2),I would agree that DCS is more advanced than DCC, but better? Last week, an experienced DCC user (he's got NCE at home and uses Digitrax at our club) was simply trying to change the address on an MTH SD70Ace using the club Digitrax system. It took him 6 attempts before the number was changed. This is better?On a DCC sound decoder, my individual sound levels can be adjusted to suit my needs. On DCS, you get all or nothing. On DCC, I can move my sound & lighting effects around so if I want the coupler clank on F3 or F7 I can put it there. On DCS, you can't move a thing. On some DCC sound decoders, I can upload custom sound effects to represent any prototype I want. With DCS, what they give you is what you get...no more. If I want DCC in my 1970's-era brass steam loco, I have a multitude of choices to pick from. There are economical DCC decoders to fully involved sound systems. With DCS...you can't do anything about that old engine because DCS decoders don't exist outside factory installed units. All this is better?
While I want a simple control system, I don't want simplistic. To me, DCS crosses that line.
tomikawaTT,Cheap shots abound from both camps. The recent DC controls thread on the Electrical Forum proves that.
twhite,Okay...but let me put it this way: This is a clearly titled DCC thread. Why are there the usual contingent of DC users like yourself, tomikawaTT, & Sheldon all posting here? What persuaded all of you to click on the link in the first place? Other than for the entertainment, that is.
jecorbett,One can do various control systems without DCC or toggles and still run many trains at once. The simplest way is the Northlandz way...just have a seperate loop for every train and you're done. The other is to have your track switches throw power for you, so as each route is aligned, the power flows, too. Then there are more exotic control systems like progressive block (I think MIT uses something like that) and MZL.
jeffrey-wimberly,I don't see why reverse loops cannot be controlled automatically as with DCC. Most people never tried because of the work & expense involved, but using detector circuits of one kind or another wouldn't be that hard to trip a relay to reverse polarity. Even little infrared beams would work.
For those interested in more info on alterative DC systems, I refer you to this thread, or send me a PM.
It includes pictures of a similar system to mine that I built and installed on a friends layout.
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/thread/1801092.aspx
EMD F7A jeffrey-wimberly cudaken twhiteWhat the Heck are Toggles, anyway? Tom, don't they live under bridges and start flame wars? Cuda Ken Hahahaaaaa!!! Where the heck are all those wires going?? I love this picture- subliminal nonsense, like a horse with a fuel filler cap on its ***!
jeffrey-wimberly cudaken twhiteWhat the Heck are Toggles, anyway? Tom, don't they live under bridges and start flame wars? Cuda Ken
cudaken twhiteWhat the Heck are Toggles, anyway? Tom, don't they live under bridges and start flame wars? Cuda Ken
twhiteWhat the Heck are Toggles, anyway?
Tom, don't they live under bridges and start flame wars?
Hahahaaaaa!!! Where the heck are all those wires going?? I love this picture- subliminal nonsense, like a horse with a fuel filler cap on its ***!
Actually come to think of it plug and play toggle switches for model railroading would be nice..
A P/P toggle switch could be used on DC or DCC layouts.
cudaken Far as running 4 trains on DC with no switches or toggles, that easy! K-10 model train has two DC loops on his layout. Each loop has around 10 MRC 9500's. Each one controls around 30 feet of track, then plastic rail joiners, then next 9500 picks up from there. When I was DC, I could run two trains at the same time. Only switches I had where to kill power to spurs so engines could sit. Time to get out of here before there is incoming! Cuda Ken
Far as running 4 trains on DC with no switches or toggles, that easy!
When I was DC, I could run two trains at the same time. Only switches I had where to kill power to spurs so engines could sit.
Time to get out of here before there is incoming!
Track plans and control systems should be tailored to the needs/wants of the user. There is no perfect track plan and no perfect control system.
BRAKIE jeffrey-wimberly jecorbettYou've got me curious. Without toggles or slide switches like the Atlas Selector, how is it you are able to independently control so many trains. Way back in the 1960s my brother and I bought a used 4x8 HO layout that had two power packs, each controlling a different loop of track, so there was no need to for switches. Is there another way to assign a train to different throttles without the use of some type of manual switch? Ditto. I just can't see how a train on a DC layout can negotiate a return loop without a set of toggles to change the polarity. I am scratching my head over that as well..
jeffrey-wimberly jecorbettYou've got me curious. Without toggles or slide switches like the Atlas Selector, how is it you are able to independently control so many trains. Way back in the 1960s my brother and I bought a used 4x8 HO layout that had two power packs, each controlling a different loop of track, so there was no need to for switches. Is there another way to assign a train to different throttles without the use of some type of manual switch? Ditto. I just can't see how a train on a DC layout can negotiate a return loop without a set of toggles to change the polarity.
jecorbettYou've got me curious. Without toggles or slide switches like the Atlas Selector, how is it you are able to independently control so many trains. Way back in the 1960s my brother and I bought a used 4x8 HO layout that had two power packs, each controlling a different loop of track, so there was no need to for switches. Is there another way to assign a train to different throttles without the use of some type of manual switch?
I am scratching my head over that as well..
In my case, return loops are only used in stagging areas. Trains pull in to the loop and stop. The turnout is thrown, the once west bound train is now east bound so the operator reverses the direction on his wireless throttle, and he can now go back the way he came.
As you stand and look at any train, with your Aristo throttle in your hand, the left direction button sends the train to you left, the right one sends it to your right. Simple.
The "reversing" is done by relay contacts that mirror the switch machine.
I hate Rust
Well first let me say that it does involve some advanced planning and wiring. And is not easily explained in a short response. But, using a combination of wiring methods developed over all the many years since DC trains began, it is very possible to wire a layout for multiple train operation with very minimal "operator input" in terms of assigning cabs to track sections.
If you have access to any old MR's, you could start by reading the series of articles by Ed Ravenscroft that appeared throughout 1974. And, Paul Mallery's "Electrical Handbook for Model Railroads - vol 1&2" covers many methods of advanced cab control which minimize or eliminate "flipping switches".
Some of it is done automaticly by turnout postion. This is more than simple power routing that you may already understand, but actually involves hard wired logic that connects some sections of track differently based on turnout positon.
These are my wants and needs, doing them with DCC would cost considerably more than my intergrated DC system. Especially since I have over 100 locos that would require decoders.
I believe from following some of your other posts, that you are relatively new the hobby or are just returning to the hobby. So in all fairness let me explain that I personally have no interest in onboard sound, and the era/theme of my layout does not require odd match up consisting or modern loco lighting effects. All of which are better provided with DCC.
I model 1954, my diesels are matched sets, my steam is matched double headers (but actually many of todays new locos will run very well on DC with other brands). My layout plan is large but relatively simple making it easy to keep trains "away from each other" (something the prototype goes to great length to do with signaling) and I want the flexablity of operating the whole layout alone, with a crew, or for an openhouse. So the track plan and control system work together to provide all of these features.
I belong to a local round robin group and many in the group have DCC. I operate their layouts, even designed one of them and have been involved in constructing several of them. I am very familiar with DCC and have nothing against it, its just not for me at this time on this layout.
If my goals where different, I might want DCC, but I have been happy with this set of goals for many years and will continue on this path.
cudakentwhiteWhat the Heck are Toggles, anyway? Tom, don't they live under bridges and start flame wars? Cuda Ken
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
Please enlighten us on this amazing control system that you have that allows 4 trains to be run on your mainline without using switches. Is this some variation of the "magic wand" system our japanese modeling friend uses to throw his twin coil switch machines. A red wand, a blue wand, a yellow wand, and a green wand and when I wave it in the air the trains move? Please explain how your system works. Pictures would be even better.
Yup, DCC did a lot to enhance operation and to ease wiring - for me! I would not want to go without it. Finally, it is an issue of personal preference - if your happy with DC, why not!
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The way my control system and layout are designed, I can run 4 trains at a time on the mainline, and four more on branch lines and industrial areas, and still not flip any toggles. Fact remains, toggle switches or rotary switches are likely the worst way to wire ANY DC layout. Yet these poor examples of clumsy DC systems are all that many have ever seen. Sheldon
The way my control system and layout are designed, I can run 4 trains at a time on the mainline, and four more on branch lines and industrial areas, and still not flip any toggles.
Fact remains, toggle switches or rotary switches are likely the worst way to wire ANY DC layout. Yet these poor examples of clumsy DC systems are all that many have ever seen.
You've got me curious. Without toggles or slide switches like the Atlas Selector, how is it you are able to independently control so many trains. Way back in the 1960s my brother and I bought a used 4x8 HO layout that had two power packs, each controlling a different loop of track, so there was no need to for switches. Is there another way to assign a train to different throttles without the use of some type of manual switch?
i didn't want nothing to do with dcc. it scared me just like computers and dc was good enuogh. one day a guy i knew showed me his ho railroad. i saw him run engines on the same track going different ways. i had to know how he did it. i lookd for bunches of wires but there was only a couple of them. he said it was dcc. he gave me a little card showing how engines program and how cv works. was easy. i didnt feel so dumb anymore and went dcc later. i like runnin engines anywhere i want with out it messing with the other engines in the block.
Silver Pilot ATLANTIC CENTRAL Who flips toggles? I still use DC but don't flip any toggles. DCC is great, it's just not a one size fits all solution to the job. Sheldon You don't need toggles when you only run one train at a time.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Who flips toggles? I still use DC but don't flip any toggles. DCC is great, it's just not a one size fits all solution to the job. Sheldon
Who flips toggles? I still use DC but don't flip any toggles.
DCC is great, it's just not a one size fits all solution to the job.
You don't need toggles when you only run one train at a time.
jeffrey-wimberly It sure beats flipping toggle switches all the time.
It sure beats flipping toggle switches all the time.
Jeff,I don't use blocks on my ISLs so no block flipping for me..If I did use blocks I would use Atlas selectors anyway and would leave my route lined..
I used DCC and found its ok but,overkill for a small 1 horse ISL.
twhiteFor myself, I'm DC and happy (and no toggles. What the Heck are Toggles, anyway? ). But I'll tellya, if you're DCC and happy, then more power to you.
Observation - those of us happy with DC don't use block toggles. Those using DCC keep telling us that block toggles are the problem with DC. I guess that explains it.
Personally, I can't wait to see how long it takes before this thread gets really INTENSE and locked.
For myself, I'm DC and happy (and no toggles. What the Heck are Toggles, anyway? ). But I'll tellya, if you're DCC and happy, then more power to you.
Let me put it this way. I'm a happy Catholic, but I see no reason to try and convert happy Protestants, as long as they don't try and convert me. To each his own and happy with it.
'Nuff said.
I agree 100% but have to wonder how much cooler /better it's going to get in the future
Javelina Phoebe Vet There is no such thing as foolproof; fool resistant is the best you can hope for. We've got a saying in the machining world, "That fool could break a crowbar in a sandbox and loose one of the pieces".
Phoebe Vet There is no such thing as foolproof; fool resistant is the best you can hope for.
There is no such thing as foolproof; fool resistant is the best you can hope for.
There's another saying. If you idiot proof something, they'll just come up with a better idiot. I'm a foot dragger when it comes to new technology. I didn't even have a cell phone until about 4 years ago. I don't have an iPod, Blackberry, 3G connection or any of the latest and greatest electronic gizmos. I did, however, make the decision to commit to DCC when I started my current layout about 6 years ago. I have never regretted that decision. Lots of new technology actually makes our lives more complicated. DCC is a technology that makes life simpler. Other than the added cost of factory installed DCC and sound, I see no downside to DCC. I can't imagin ever going back to the old way.
el-capitan UP 4-12-2 But DCS is better--it's virtually idiot-proof. Never underestimate the ingenuity of an idiot.
UP 4-12-2 But DCS is better--it's virtually idiot-proof.
But DCS is better--it's virtually idiot-proof.
Never underestimate the ingenuity of an idiot.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL jeffrey-wimberly It sure beats flipping toggle switches all the time. Who flips toggles? I still use DC but don't flip any toggles. DCC is great, it's just not a one size fits all solution to the job. Sheldon
One size NEVER fits all!
The OP is thrilled by DCC - good. More power to him.
The DCC aficonados all feel vindicated - and good. I'm glad that they feel good.
Cheap shots at DC control prove only that the shooter isn't familiar with the more sophisticated analog DC systems - and didn't think of One-Train Herbert and his toggle-free toy train loop.
People who are happy with their analog DC systems are glad the DCC folks are happy - as long as they don't try to become missionaries for their chosen system(s) in complete disregard of what the analogers are doing, or planning to do.
Enjoy whatever size you like - even if it's the 78-ounce steak at the Cowboy Restaurant in Amarillo (which is free if you can eat it, and $$$ if you can't finish!)
As for me, I'm a happy camper. Sheldon knows why.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - analog DC, modified MZL system)
Check out the Deming Sub by clicking on the pics:
I was convinced DCC was great back around 1982 when a group I was with built and got running a CTC-16 system. The major drawback then was you usually had to buy the system as a kit, solder it together, hope nothing got fried in the process, and hope it worked. It was very basic, but you could run multiple trains on a single track without a lot of toggle/rotary switches and fancy wiring.
The thing that makes today's DCC great is the NMRA standards that make all the periphials from any manufacturer compaible with any base DCC system (almost), and the variety of decoders available from inexpensive basic ones to fancy expensive sound decoders.
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
Driline ATLANTIC CENTRAL Who flips toggles? I still use DC but don't flip any toggles. DCC is great, it's just not a one size fits all solution to the job. Sheldon I wondered how long it would take before you chimed in As for me. I LOVE my IBM select typewriter. Computers...myeaaa.....they're just a fad, just like DCC.
I wondered how long it would take before you chimed in
As for me. I LOVE my IBM select typewriter. Computers...myeaaa.....they're just a fad, just like DCC.
If not for the "toggle flipping" comment, I might have left this alone completely.
ATLANTIC CENTRALWho flips toggles? I still use DC but don't flip any toggles. DCC is great, it's just not a one size fits all solution to the job. Sheldon
5 years before-my dealer said to me:Cancel your H0-layout from DC to DCC-my answer was-to expensive :-((At this time I only run with DCC on my G-scale-layout)
And a half year later I want to buy DCC-items for H0-and today-I will not miss them-for me is DCC the best way to run model railroads
I like "to go with my trains",and many functions,such as light,horn,smoke,,,
I will never miss DCC
Shhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!! Don't tell us how great DCC is...... It is bound to start another war!
Yeah, I went with DCC after getting back in the hobby a few years ago and just love running the trains instead of flipping switches every 15 feet or so..... The Autoreverers are a fantastic little electronic dohickeys, I always would have the setting wrong for whichever end of the loop I was entering with a train and would have a short. At the other end I was forever forgetting to change the direction of the mainline (Had to walk way over to where the main toggle foe the mainline cab A or B was) and would get a short on the other end as well. Now I just run the train and it takes care of itself....
Oh, and all you DC guys out there that love DC, Bless you one and all. It's your layout, and if you like it the way it is....... Nothing at all wrong with that!
doctorwayne Hey, guys, I agree 100%, but I can't believe that both of you could spell DC wrong! Wayne
Hey, guys, I agree 100%, but I can't believe that both of you could spell DC wrong!
LOL, Wayne that was a good one!
No argument here. I love DCC.
But I'm sure you will hear from some DC guys.
Different strokes for different folks. That's why they still make both systems.
ARTHILLGood for you Mike. That is my experience, DCC is the funnest toy in the train room. I assume that the smart people who understand all this will make it better, but DCC is what I always wished for in the early years.
Good for you Mike. That is my experience, DCC is the funnest toy in the train room. I assume that the smart people who understand all this will make it better, but DCC is what I always wished for in the early years.