I was certainly surprised by the MSP of the new upcoming Rapido Osgood coaches. There was grumbling with the new Walthers coach prices which are basically priced at $65.00 US. The new Rapido coaches are indicated to have a $75.00 US price tag.
The BLI CZ cars being re-released are priced at $65.00 and MTH is advertising their upcoming Daylight passenger cars at $70.00. I would have expected the MTH cars to be the most expensive of the bunch.
"Tis Market Psych 102, me boy. Set 'em up to think the worst, then go nice 'n easy and they'll think they're in heaven.
Those prices are MSRP. Virtually all retailers will be authorized/encouraged/induced to sell them at a discount, and some may pad the discount to ensure success if they have agreed to order a bunch of them, or if they wish to encourage pre-orders.
I agree that no matter what the prices are pretty severe in view of what similar products have gone for in the past six years, but the times they are a changin'.
-Crandell
selector "Tis Market Psych 102, me boy. Set 'em up to think the worst, then go nice 'n easy and they'll think they're in heaven. Those prices are MSRP. Virtually all retailers will be authorized/encouraged/induced to sell them at a discount, and some may pad the discount to ensure success if they have agreed to order a bunch of them, or if they wish to encourage pre-orders. I agree that no matter what the prices are pretty severe in view of what similar products have gone for in the past six years, but the times they are a changin'. -Crandell
It's not out of line historically as the $75 equates to just about $11 in 1964.
By the time you got a Walthers kit, the underbody superdetail kit, interior kit, trucks, couplers, paint and decals, you'd find you'd pretty much paid $11-12 if not more. You'd still have to put the thing together yourself, naturally. Here you get the whole shebang in a single package and the detail is a whole lot better.
Andre
Part of the problem with new models these days is the price of commodities when they were being produced. Petroleum (used to make plastic), steel, nickel, aluminum, and copper were all at sky-high prices last summer.
Not that I think anyone is going to actually REDUCE their MSRP now that the bottom has fallen out of the commodities market, but it may be a while before we see another price increase.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
CTValleyRR Part of the problem with new models these days is the price of commodities when they were being produced. Petroleum (used to make plastic), steel, nickel, aluminum, and copper were all at sky-high prices last summer. Not that I think anyone is going to actually REDUCE their MSRP now that the bottom has fallen out of the commodities market, but it may be a while before we see another price increase.
Don't forget the effect of the foreign currency exchange rates given the fact that these things are made over seas and the dollar isn't that strong relative to most foreign currencies.
Irv
corsair7 CTValleyRR Part of the problem with new models these days is the price of commodities when they were being produced. Petroleum (used to make plastic), steel, nickel, aluminum, and copper were all at sky-high prices last summer. Not that I think anyone is going to actually REDUCE their MSRP now that the bottom has fallen out of the commodities market, but it may be a while before we see another price increase. Don't forget the effect of the foreign currency exchange rates given the fact that these things are made over seas and the dollar isn't that strong relative to most foreign currencies. Irv
Actually, the dollar's gained ground in recent months. Just last summer, the Canadian dollar and US dollar were at parity. Now it takes $1.23 CAD to equal $1 USD.
What are we comparing them to? I have not, obviously, seen these new Rapido coaches. But the Rapido passenger cars I have seen are beautiful replicas, loaded with detail, nicely painted and lettered.
Let's take a walk down memory lane here. Starting with the 1976 Walthers HO Catalog......A Walthers kit, which was no snap to build by the way, was usually between $8.50 and $9.75. The interior kit was around $4.50. Oh and you needed to buy trucks. Those were $3.25. And the couplers were dummy so you needed to buy those. And paint. And decals. So you were around $20 per car and that was before you tried to build, paint or letter the thing. The car was unchanged from 1950s technology, basically.
OK bad comparison since the Rapido cars are assembled. Soho brass cars, which needed paint and decals and were minimally detailed on the underbody and had no interior details, were in the $45 to $60 range. And no couplers.
Let's move up to the 1982 catalog. Far fewer Walthers kits but they were in the $15 range, unassembled and unpainted or lettered, no trucks, and interior was a separate charge.
Ade offered a variety of European passenger cars as plastic kits or RTR. Kits were $70 to $90, RTR $11o or more. They looked beautiful. Complete interiors, nice trucks, lighting. Very comparable to Rapido, and priced higher as kits, and very much higher as RTR.
The Keil Line, formerly Holgate & Reynolds and later Three Brothers, double deck commuter car kits are priced around $25. I mention that only because anyone who ever built one knows they were tricky to build and frankly did not look all that great, with crude castings.
Limited Editions had a large variety of passenger cars, kits, less trucks and couplers, in the $18 to $20 range.
Soho cars were up to $80 in brass, unpainted, but with trucks.
Dave Nelson
Interestingly enough, that $20 in 1976 equates to $74.58 today. Roughly the same as the Rapido car. And as Dave said, the technology was 1950's and you had to build the car yourself. $75 is not out of line especially when it will be discounted. My favorite train pusher will probably sell 'em for around $60.
They'd look GREAT on a $2.7 million layout!
Geez--Wasn't there a thread on this topic only a short while ago? Now there looks to be about three threads going on about the same thing---Prices are going up--which translates into either fewer people into the hobby or we start doing woodshedding and we'll see a lot more scratch/bashing and who knows what---those of us who 'stockpiled', and were seen as being, or rather having, 'OCD' issues will be doing stuff with their layouts while ev'body else be sittin' 'roun' bellyachin'.
I gotta go to the trainroom--look at the stockpile----heeheehee
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
blownout cylinder Geez--Wasn't there a thread on this topic only a short while ago? Now there looks to be about three threads going on about the same thing---Prices are going up--which translates into either fewer people into the hobby or we start doing woodshedding and we'll see a lot more scratch/bashing and who knows what---those of us who 'stockpiled', and were seen as being, or rather having, 'OCD' issues will be doing stuff with their layouts while ev'body else be sittin' 'roun' bellyachin'. I gotta go to the trainroom--look at the stockpile----heeheehee
You're having way too much fun.
The hobby's dying because it's being replaced by bellyaching. Bellyaching is a cheap hobby and you can set up anywhere.
Start modeling abandoned railroads. We will not have all the complaining about loco and rolling stock prices.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
andrechapelon blownout cylinder Geez--Wasn't there a thread on this topic only a short while ago? Now there looks to be about three threads going on about the same thing---Prices are going up--which translates into either fewer people into the hobby or we start doing woodshedding and we'll see a lot more scratch/bashing and who knows what---those of us who 'stockpiled', and were seen as being, or rather having, 'OCD' issues will be doing stuff with their layouts while ev'body else be sittin' 'roun' bellyachin'. I gotta go to the trainroom--look at the stockpile----heeheehee You're having way too much fun. The hobby's dying because it's being replaced by bellyaching. Bellyaching is a cheap hobby and you can set up anywhere. Andre
How true----- -----but at the same time kinda
The only reason prices are going up is so that some guy sitting at a desk can get his new jet or buy a new $100000 car.
but you think pricing on these are bad look at news papers-- the carrier pays .10 each and sell for .75
kddigger The only reason prices are going up is so that some guy sitting at a desk can get his new jet or buy a new $100000 car. but you think pricing on these are bad look at news papers-- the carrier pays .10 each and sell for .75
You've never delivered newspapers, have you?
kddiggerbut you think pricing on these are bad look at news papers-- the carrier pays .10 each and sell for .75
I had two newspaper routes when I was a kid--I got paid to bring the newspapers to the subscribers home. Before throwing lines like this out check the facts out please.BTW--the only way I can see your point work is by suggesting that you might be referring to the newsboys who hawked their papers from the street corners--"Extree, Extree--read all about it!--" that type. But if you are referring to the guys--no kids are doing this any more--then you're barking up the wrong tree----
blownout cylinder kddiggerbut you think pricing on these are bad look at news papers-- the carrier pays .10 each and sell for .75 I had two newspaper routes when I was a kid--I got paid to bring the newspapers to the subscribers home. Before throwing lines like this out check the facts out please.BTW--the only way I can see your point work is by suggesting that you might be referring to the newsboys who hawked their papers from the street corners--"Extree, Extree--read all about it!--" that type. But if you are referring to the guys--no kids are doing this any more--then you're barking up the wrong tree----
Then you'll remember that not only did you have to fold, band,and deliver the papers (at 4:30-5am 7 days a week regardless of weather), you also were the collection agent for the newspaper company. You weren't an employee, either, but an "independent businessman" who had to pay for the papers and once you paid for the number of papers you delivered, you got to keep the excess.
As I recall. I had about 120 customers and a monthly subscription was something like $1.75 for a full 7 day subscription. I collected $210. The newspaper company charged me about $175 for the papers, so I got to keep around $35. Collecting subscription money took at least 20 hours. I would guess I worked about 2 hours a day on the route delivering. Lessee. I got $35 for roughly 80 hours work. That amounts to about 44 cents/hour.
Naturally, I bought my corporate jet after my first month in business.
kddigger The only reason prices are going up is so that some guy sitting at a desk can get his new jet or buy a new $100000 car.
Just throwing a steamer out there to generate some argument, or do you really believe that?
If the latter, I suggest you gain understanding about how businesses work. Savvy businessmen realize that there is more value in a repeat customer (one who doesn't feel ripped off) than there is in gouging one-time buyers. Even car dealers -- many of whom have a shady reputation getting as much profit as they can -- would rather sell you a car at a loss and keep you coming back to their service department and to buy your next vehicle than get a hefty profit off of one sale.
And the upper executives of small manufacturing companies --- Bachmann, Walthers, Rapido, Atlas, etc. -- do not make individual pricing decisions on products, but monitor performance on product lines. The mid-level guys who make the decisions that affect the performance of a product line don't have private jets and $100K autos (my boss has 2 kids in college, one starting next year, has a big mortgage on a 2400 square foot house, and has two family cars -- a 4 year old minivan and an 8 year old Toyota Corolla). He flys economy class when he travels.
And yes, bellyaching is the new National Passtime -- why else do you think Internet Forums were invented?
I rarely if ever get into the Forum, but I got a call last night that there was a thread on the Rapido Osgood Bradley Car, I have read through the thread, and all that I see is Price, Price, Price - nothing about product.
I have been modeling the New Haven since 1958, a time when you either scratchbuilt, heavily kitbashed or manufactured things yourself. I manufactured the first full length Osgood Bradley (OB) car - etched brass, castings and commercial wood roof - in 1962 and sold the line for about 5 years. Largely because of that experienced; about a year ago I was put in contact with Rapido who were working on the same OB cars in plastic. This January, I received a "test shot" of two of these cars, so I have seen the product, albeit not in its "final" form. To be blunt, the detail on the car is fantastic - possibly the finest that I have seen in one of today's super-detailed plastic passenger cars. Some facts:
The body dimensions and tubular cross section are exact, and the car comes either with full skirts (1937), skirts removed over trucks (1948 - 1955) or no skirts at all (1955 on). There is a separate roof with a vent box for the smoker version of the car, Working diaphragms four paint jobs and choice of six numbers will complete the decoration (which was not on the test shot that I inspected). The underframe detail is amazing; virtually all pipes and AC components, air tanks, etc. are seperately applied; and highly visible on the cars without skirts. There are two styles of trucks (friction and roller bearing) to match the time period of the car, There is a complete interior with correct, one arm, rollover seats, There is a watch-battery powered lighting system in the roof that is activated by passing a magnet over one end of the roof, It is my understanding that even though the car will come "ready to run" some parts (truck leaf springs and two coupler shank lengths) be unmounted come to allow the buyer to operate with full skirts around 24" radius curves. Some parts (trucks) will be available seperately for the kit bash buffs. Finally, in addition to the four New Haven liveries, the cars will come decorated for the B&M and BAR two other railroads that operated the same cars.
The body dimensions and tubular cross section are exact, and the car comes either with full skirts (1937), skirts removed over trucks (1948 - 1955) or no skirts at all (1955 on). There is a separate roof with a vent box for the smoker version of the car, Working diaphragms four paint jobs and choice of six numbers will complete the decoration (which was not on the test shot that I inspected).
The underframe detail is amazing; virtually all pipes and AC components, air tanks, etc. are seperately applied; and highly visible on the cars without skirts. There are two styles of trucks (friction and roller bearing) to match the time period of the car,
There is a complete interior with correct, one arm, rollover seats, There is a watch-battery powered lighting system in the roof that is activated by passing a magnet over one end of the roof,
It is my understanding that even though the car will come "ready to run" some parts (truck leaf springs and two coupler shank lengths) be unmounted come to allow the buyer to operate with full skirts around 24" radius curves. Some parts (trucks) will be available seperately for the kit bash buffs.
Finally, in addition to the four New Haven liveries, the cars will come decorated for the B&M and BAR two other railroads that operated the same cars.
And, remember that the cars that I saw and held were only test shots that still had about 30% more detail to be added. From a pure "product" standpoint in my opinion, this car is better than other heavyweight/lightweight cars on the market today. The price should not even be an issue.
From all of my raving, you might assume that I am a paid spokesperson for Rapido. Not the case, I have no formal relationship with them, other than they have finally produced a distinctly New Haven (and B&M, BAR) car that I tried to manufacture 47 years ago using then state-of-the art technology.
The bottom line is that this product should not be looked at along the price dimension, but rather along the quality and prototypical accuracy dimension. This is why I wrote this response (even though I may not participate in the Forum for another five years). Yes I will buy some, as they will look great on the model of the New Haven on Cape Cod in 1948 that is growing in my basement.
John Pryke
Your participation is most welcome, and very positive, John. It is like anything else offered for sale....how does the prospective buyer value it? People looking/hoping for some special details in a special item will, as you suggest, be very grateful for this product.
Thanks for chiming in.
John Pryke:
Hopefully, they'll also do them in the Cotton Belt "Daylight" livery and the SP silver/orange stripe livery. SP got Cotton Belt's OB's after it ceased passenger service. Some were assigned to the "Del Monte".
Not to mention the BAR's later gray with blue stripe livery.
Folks:
Gosh, I could never spend that much on one little passenger car. I almost find it hard to believe that there are enough people to shell out this kind of change for one, however good it is. How do they explain it to their wives? Mine was a bit surprised when I told her that little Bachmann Percy cost thirty bucks. :D
Maybe a few people can afford to ignore the price dimension, but not me, and I dare say not most. I'd say a few people who used to think they could ignore that sphere have now had to take quick notice, Indiana Jones-style, or get flattened as it rolled by.
I wonder this a lot about a lot of MR items. A passenger car isn't so bad - how many do you need - but a large layout can eat up hundreds of autos, and some of those are $20! They're out there, though, so somebody must be buying them. Maybe the tendency is to have a few, and fill out the roster with plastic cheapies.
But seriously...the wife...what do people say? "OH, they just left the decimal point out, honey."
Well my other hobbie is RC model airplanes.Have any of you ever heard of Carl Goldberg?I have a couple of ORIGINAL Carl Goldberg kits from 1941.
The original price on them was $3.95 each.They are New In The Box yet, and today they fetch prices between 400 to 700 dollars each.I paid less than 100 dollars for both of them a long time ago.I have REPLIKITS of both of them , so I can still build themand still leave the originals in the boxes.
I also still have my Dad's Lionel "O" scale trains ( two of them with accessories, etc from the 1930's.They are in good shape and both trains still run and have the original electric motors in them.
Dear John Pryke,Nice to see you, one of the Deans of New Haven Railroad modeling and operations, posting here.
I think we met once, at the Marlboro, MA train show back when it was in the High School. I work the NHRHTA tables for the Old Colony crew (since 1991), and I think you were looking for someone who wasn't at the table right at that moment.
In any event, how's the new layout? I almost built a copy of your old layout in my parent's house around 15 years ago, but I found an even larger space that I just couldn't resist to do my Boston to Providence HO layout of my own design. But your "High Noon on the New Haven" article is still one of my favorite Model Railroader issues, and certainly helped inspire me to do mine. Thanks.
I have to say I've never seen one of your O-B kits, or at least I don't think I have. What was the name of your brand? Adding yours the list, these are the other O-B coach models I know about in HO scale...have there been any others?
1). Pryke kits.2). American Flyer HO (they were shorties based on their S-scale tooling).3). E&B Valley (flat styrene kits, painted or undec.).4). Eastern Car Works (tooling from E&B Valley, only undec. kits...still available).5). NJ/Custom Brass (1970's brass car, no interior, wrong trucks if any, Grill car also available).6). Rapido Trains (new)As far as I know, these are all 10-window version coaches (except the A-F cars, of course).
I saw these car test shots at Springfield, and while they are beautiful, there's just one thing that concerned me. There appears to be a belt rail of steel around the perimeter of the upper roof panels. The O-B roof is made of three courses of steel plate: one in the center that overlaps the two that head curve towards the letterboards (as compared to the post-war SS fleet that had just a single plate of steel per roof section). These O-B roof plates overlap, but there is no belt of steel at this joint. On the pre-production Rapido models, there's a definite ridge or belt at the joint that just doesn't belong there. Have you noticed this, or am I just imagining things? I have four of these on order, so I'd kinda like to know if I should buy undec.'s instead so I can file the roof and paint it myself.
One other thing... Back a few years ago, you had an article about detailing a Proto 2000 USRA 0-8-0 into a NH Y-3. In one of the pics in the article, it showed an Elesco "thermos bottle" on the smokebox of what looked like a Bachmann Spectrum 4-8-2. Did you ever complete an article about transforming one of these into an updated R-1 model? Was it to be in MR or in the NHRHTA Bulletin? I have one of these engines myself, and I purchased one of Bachmann's Vandy tenders with the idea to upgrade the model to WWII appearance. I also have an Elesco detailing kit, but having never done this before, I sure could use some tips. Thanks!
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
Autobus PrimeI wonder this a lot about a lot of MR items. A passenger car isn't so bad - how many do you need - but a large layout can eat up hundreds of autos, and some of those are $20! They're out there, though, so somebody must be buying them. Maybe the tendency is to have a few, and fill out the roster with plastic cheapies.
You can get pretty good looking, scale model cars from Walmart in the $5 range.
It also depends on where/what you're modelling. Open autorack trains are a killer. Myself, I model a northern Ontario shortline/regional and there isn't much in the way of roads for most of the area served by the line. I'll only need a few autos in select locations.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
Hello Paul,
My OB cars were sold from 1963 - 1969 under the lable Bennington Scale Models. They still show up on white elephant tables for $35-40. FYI E&B Valley and Eastern Car Works are the same. The NJI cars were brass and poor. Rapido will eventually do the 10 window, 11 window and Smoker (8500s) ib full skirts, no skirts over trucks, and no skirts at all. BIG project. I saw the 10 window and Smoker. The test shots that you saw at Springfield were first generation; all of the hacks have been fixed, Watch the Rapido ads for availability.
The Spectrum R-1 that appeared in the article on the P-2K 0-8-0 was never finished. Thanks for your kind words on my old Acton Pike. I now live on Cape Cod and am working a layout depicting the New Haven from Boston to Provincetown in 1948.
John
I think we all understand that it is possible to fully participate in and enjoy this hobby while finding the less expensive stuff, the less prototypically precise models, and perhaps even older and used equipment, all perfectly acceptable for what we want to do with the hobby.
As part of that I suspect each of us has in his or her brain some notion, perhaps never articulated but there, deep down, that "I will never spend more than $X for a passenger car, never spend more than $Y for a locomotive" and so on. Regardless of quality. Regardless of how much you want the item. And from the beginning of the hobby you can rest assured that someone out there is willing to spend more.
The same is true for houses, cars, clothes, vacations, education, a dinner out, sports, a piano, you name it. And in fact, these price points that each of us has often have nothing to do with our ability to pay. I know some people of wealth who will happily pay quite a bit for a car, but would never think of spending more than $10 for a bottle of wine. And I know someone who does not make much money but to them it makes no sense to own any piano other than a Steinway.
But to return to the example at hand, if someone wants these precise cars, and nothing else will do, and nobody else makes them or is likely ever to make them, and you know Rapido has a track record as to high quality goods, then .... what? Wait for them to be cheaper? Sometimes things disappear before they get cheaper. Wait for them to be on sale? That can take the nerves of a Mississippi riverboat gambler with limited run stuff. Bite the bullet? Some will choose that. Each of us has his or her own limits.
Your understanding of economics has some serious holes in it.
Midnight Railroader kddigger The only reason prices are going up is so that some guy sitting at a desk can get his new jet or buy a new $100000 car. Your understanding of economics has some serious holes in it.
You're a lot kinder than I would be.
Somewhere in my stockpile I have a bunch of N scale building kits done up in brass. All I paid for these was $30 the lot. If some people have become that concerned about price dig these up in some trainshows or what have you.
And yes Andre, I remember all the stuff I had to do--meandering around after my route was done with my AGFA camera and haunting our train station waiting for the early passenger and freights going through Woodstock at about 7am-----We usually had everything at our place about 4:30am and I'd be off just before 5am---