John,I'll have to keep my eyes open for Bennington Scale Model items. Goodness knows, I go to enough train shows every year so I should see something eventually.
The E&B/ECW cars are okay models once you tone down the rivets and put on decent trucks, provided one can find one that's not warped. Interestingly enough, the E&B's that I've purchased over the years have not been warped, only the ECW's. Hmm...
I forgot another O-B manufacturer: New Haven Terminal (AKA Bradford Hobbies). He's the guy behind the NHRHTA tables at Springfield every year, and makes a variety of resin NH models (his new EP-4 looks pretty good, considering from where it came from). His O-B coach is based on the E&B/ECW model, however, so all it's flaws are repeated. The only benefit is that he sells undec's assembled, which makes life a lot easier (I have three).
Too bad about the R-1 job. If you ever get the chance and finish it, please publish it in the NHRHTA Bulletin. Thanks!
Speaking of the line to P-Town, I assume you have the fan trip video from the movie, "The New Haven in the 1950's and 1960's"? It was an extra 20 minute piece at the end of the normal tape. It had no sound, but it was in color. The fan trip was an RDC trip to P-Town in the mid-1950's, and there was a lot of action shot from the cab. Well, if you don't have it, I've heard through the rumor mill that this video with the extra 20 minute trip will be done on DVD in the not to distant future and the NHRHTA might be getting some to sell at the tables. It's a great vid of the Cape main, with mostly sand for ballast.
BTW, the NHRHTA will be at the West Barnstable show, but I don't know if I'll be there (it's a long haul of over 70 miles for me).
Nice talking with you!
Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
Paul3 I saw these car test shots at Springfield, and while they are beautiful, there's just one thing that concerned me. There appears to be a belt rail of steel around the perimeter of the upper roof panels. The O-B roof is made of three courses of steel plate: one in the center that overlaps the two that head curve towards the letterboards (as compared to the post-war SS fleet that had just a single plate of steel per roof section). These O-B roof plates overlap, but there is no belt of steel at this joint. On the pre-production Rapido models, there's a definite ridge or belt at the joint that just doesn't belong there. Have you noticed this, or am I just imagining things? I have four of these on order, so I'd kinda like to know if I should buy undec.'s instead so I can file the roof and paint it myself.
I saw these car test shots at Springfield, and while they are beautiful, there's just one thing that concerned me. There appears to be a belt rail of steel around the perimeter of the upper roof panels. The O-B roof is made of three courses of steel plate: one in the center that overlaps the two that head curve towards the letterboards (as compared to the post-war SS fleet that had just a single plate of steel per roof section). These O-B roof plates overlap, but there is no belt of steel at this joint. On the pre-production Rapido models, there's a definite ridge or belt at the joint that just doesn't belong there. Have you noticed this, or am I just imagining things? I have four of these on order, so I'd kinda like to know if I should buy undec.'s instead so I can file the roof and paint it myself.
Jason Shron - President - Rapido Trains Inc. - RapidoTrains.comMy HO scale Kingston Sub layout: Facebook.com/KingstonSub
Just recently I sold a very basic HW brass combine at $95.00 - I worked hard to get that for it.This was a Lambert car with no trucks, no interior, no glass and only a very basic level of under car detail.
I don't know if its a valid comparison talking about plastic and brass models in the same breath, but I would feel like I was getting good value for my $75.00 in buying a Rapido car with all that super detail and so forth. Apart from some now difficult to obtain plastic kits amd some Brass sides, the up-coming OB "American Flyer" cars from Rapido are perhaps the only game in town if you want to include these cars in your roster and I do want to buy the latter differently configured SAL cars.
Goodness knows where the dough will come from, but I do plan on on buying a couple.
I'm wondering if Rapido has given some thought to offering these cars with much less detail - perhaps a budget line - that could reflect in a cheaper price - probably not.
Bruce
citylimits I'm wondering if Rapido has given some thought to offering these cars with much less detail - perhaps a budget line - that could reflect in a cheaper price - probably not. Bruce
In my opinion, except for the inflammatory and unfounded comment about the corporate jet, this is a great thread. And I'd particularly like to thank Jason for his excellent summary of the realities of manufacturing and pricing.
I applaud what Jason's doing--even though he's not helping me with PRR! There are less expensive alternatives for those who wish them--including, gasp, kits--but I believe there's a place for highly detailed models. I agree that it's all about value. That has value for me and I'll pay for it selectively, but I understand that's not everybody's cup of tea.
I'm returning to the hobby after 50 years, and every time I hear complaints about prices I'm tempted to ask, "How much should it cost?" I believe most hobbies, sports, and pastimes are expensive, but the value lies in the pleasure they offer their practitioners. My corporate jet is on a stand in my workroom, and on my one day as a paperboy in 1953 I let a druggist convince me to give him all my papers in exchange for a single-dip ice cream cone. That taught me a lesson about instant gratification, so now I watch my pennies, build kits, delay purchases until I can afford them, lust after the odd premium model, and have a blast. As for Jason's--and others'--expensive and super-detailed models--I think they play a critical role in elevating the hobby's reputation and in inspiring at least this modeler to do better. Not to mention sell more newspapers.
Rick Krall
RapidoTooling is of course the biggest cost, and it is one that people don't always see. A new locomotive or passenger car can easily cost $100,000 in tooling. Obviously, a less-detailed car does not need as many moulds. But once we are already paying to make those extra details, leaving the details off will save a buck or two at most. That's because a large portion of the unit cost is the amortization of the tooling over the production run. If I started with a less-detailed product, that would be another story. But "less detail" is not what Rapido is all about.
Even if it was less detail from the start I'm kinda wondering whether the tooling costs might still keep it up there. A buddy and I are sort of doing a learning curve on a cnc milling machine and THAT alone is getting interesting-- What I'm wondering about is the length of a production run. And how one factors amortization in these cases---
Thanks for this information Jason, this really helps in the understanding of the thing a lot!!
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
I'd also like to thank Jason for his comments - it helps to have an industry insider weigh in and explain the realities of the market. I think dknelson also hit the nail on the head with his comments... the fact is that we all set our priorities differently, and if you want top-of-the-line equipment (in whatever field of endeavour) then you're going to have to pay for it. I'd love to have a Mercedes Benz 500 but not enough to pay for one.
Needless to say, in these difficult times people will be re-examining their priorities. If it means enough to you to buy top-of-the-line passenger cars, then you'll find a way to do it, perhaps by sacrificing elsewhere. Otherwise, you'll make do with a more basic car at a lower price.
To each his own.
One of the things I've always wished was that when MR runs an article on building a layout (The Beer Line is a case in point), they never say what the MSRP cost of the thing was when all is said and done (or if they did, I missed it). It would be helpful for them to keep a running tab on what the cost was for all materials, kits, landscaping, paint, track, switches, etc.
Cheers.
RRCanuckOne of the things I've always wished was that when MR runs an article on building a layout (The Beer Line is a case in point), they never say what the MSRP cost of the thing was when all is said and done (or if they did, I missed it). It would be helpful for them to keep a running tab on what the cost was for all materials, kits, landscaping, paint, track, switches, etc. Cheers.
Actually, MR did just that with a project layout in the '90s - in an attempt to build a layout for $500. And they used to sum all the costs for their '50s project layouts.
While keep track of rolling stock costs may have made sense in the '50s when there was little choice, and most offerings were generic, the awesome selection for specific prototypes today makes duplicating MR's project railroad a lot less likely. A layout that is a step beyond the traditional 4x8 like the Beer Line is going to be considerably more expensive and far less likely to be duplicated exactly.
And unless one is duplicating exactly, actual costs are going to vary widely, depending on individual choices. Equipment, supplies, and tools already on hand make a tremendous difference, too. I prefer to deal with cost/ square foot. For the low end, let's take the $500 layout as an example, and assume it costs $600 today. Cost for a 26 sq ft very simple layout with cheap structures, minimal detailing, and a train set for the starting point for rolling stock, track, and power pack gives $23/sq ft. For most of us, we would easily push that to at least $50/sq ft for the extra rolling stock and locomotive, improved control system, a few higher end structure kits, and perhaps more and better quality turnouts. Subtracted from that could be stuff already on hand from previous layouts, but if you add total costs for a layout that's more than a glorified train set and include costs of the previously owned items, I'd be very surprised to see less than $50/sq ft. And remember, that doesn't include tools.
If you are starting with nothing, the upfront costs are pretty high for the 1st year. Subsequent layouts don't have as high an upfront cost because the spending has been spaced over a few years, and most items are reusable.
For me, I find $40/month doesn't go far enough to do what I would like to do - and I'm only looking at just a little over 40 square feet.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
fwrightFor me, I find $40/month doesn't go far enough to do what I would like to do - and I'm only looking at just a little over 40 square feet.
I'm finding that anything between $60/mo to $110/mo does it for me--although that is averaged out. Individual month budgets may vary---
Even though my hobby budget is not as large as I would like, I have no problem with the price of the new Rapido cars or any of the other highly detailed models out there. While I don't have any of the current Rapido cars, I have hope that they, or others, will produce passenger cars that will fill my wants. There is a cost to bring highly detailed models to market and judging by the fact that Rapido continues to release new cars and roadnames, it appears that they are doing well enough to keep going.
Ricky Keil
don7 I was certainly surprised by the MSP of the new upcoming Rapido Osgood coaches. There was grumbling with the new Walthers coach prices which are basically priced at $65.00 US. The new Rapido coaches are indicated to have a $75.00 US price tag.
I was certainly surprised by the MSP of the new upcoming Rapido Osgood coaches. There was grumbling with the new Walthers coach prices which are basically priced at $65.00 US. The new Rapido coaches are indicated to have a $75.00 US price tag.
Don,You're not the first to mention the price tags..
Here in the real world I hear that a lot from the majority of the modelers I talk to at various clubs I visit and at trackside.
As one fella pointed out a 5 car train will cost around $300.00-unacceptable to most I talked to.I agreed because I heard the same.
A oddity is Branchline's 3 pack kits sells for $119.85..A fairly good bargain if one doesn't mind building kits.
The best way to beat sticker shock is buy at the best discount or not to buy the high tagged items at full MSRP...In fact I stopped buying at full MRSP.
For me,I won't be buying any of those high priced passenger cars.
If I wanted a passenger train,I would use Athearn cars that costs far less and still fills my modest needs..
BTW and just for fun..
A 4 car passenger train in N Scale would cost me less then 2 high price HO passenger cars.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Brakie(Larry); I'd look into picking something up like those coaches if I was in HO to begin with. And with the passenger needs on my so called shortline, RDC's were fine for me--and the RDC's I got were at a fleamarket for pete's sake. But even then--Yes, they would run over $300 for a 4/5 car set MSRP. But--how about budgeting for a car a month? Or even saving up over a period of time?
Or is it all---I want it ---2 weeks ago?
Brakie:
How's that a bargain? It's 3 times the price of an individual kit. You can get the same effect buying 1 kit at a time until you have the 3 cars you want. Then you don't have to shell out all the money at once. Besides, if you buy the 3 pack, you get all the same type of car. Buy 'em one at a time and you can mix/match.
The Rapido MSRP doesn't bother me. I'm not buying because they're out of my era for the SP (who got Cotton Belt OB's in the late 50's when SSW quit the passenger biz).
Andre
Barry said:Or is it all---I want it ---2 weeks ago?
-----------------------
Could be in some cases..
From the modelers I talked to its the high price..
Again by my modest HO needs the Athearn passenger cars would fill the bill.
In N Kato fills the bill with their 4 car sets-again if I wanted a passenger train.
Thanks for your thoughts. There's no question that the rolling stock and motive power we choose to operate on our layouts impact the price - I am looking more at the cost of a layout itself. While I agree that we have more variety (and price ranges) available today, the Beer Line articles featured components that I think most of us who have been in the hobby for a while are familiar with and are widely available - DPM, Walthers, and so on. The Beer Line articles were written (I think) as a tutorial for the newcomer, and as such, I think it would be a useful service to them to understand how much they should expect to pay "for a layout similar to this one". Obviously, every layout will have a different cost depending on size, complexity, etc.
But at least, if they state "this particular layout cost $X to build" it gives people - particularly newcomers - a ballpark sense of what you can build for a given amount of money. Perhaps they could list rolling stock and locos separately. I just think it's a bit of useful information that should be included.
andrechapelon Brakie: A oddity is Branchline's 3 pack kits sells for $119.85..A fairly good bargain if one doesn't mind building kits. How's that a bargain? It's 3 times the price of an individual kit. You can get the same effect buying 1 kit at a time until you have the 3 cars you want. Then you don't have to shell out all the money at once. Besides, if you buy the 3 pack, you get all the same type of car. Buy 'em one at a time and you can mix/match. The Rapido MSRP doesn't bother me. I'm not buying because they're out of my era for the SP (who got Cotton Belt OB's in the late 50's when SSW quit the passenger biz). Andre
Andre,When compared to the price of 3 Rapido cars its a bargain.
As far as Rapido they can charge what they want I won't be buying 'em.
More power to those that do and they can buy my share..
What I find interesting is the problem of budgeting such that one can find the coaches, or what have you, as needed. I know people who are on gov't disability pensions who actually manage to budget a certain amount/month and save it for the item they feel they need, or just get scenery materials as needed--or even stockpile as the case may be. The question of 3packs vs 1 at a time might not be so much an issue if one thinks in terms of longer periods of time vs an immediate bigtime hit to the wallet.
But then what am I talking about. I'm not a financial planner----
Barry,I am retired..Suffice to say on a fixed income the best discounts is your friend..
I could buy 1-2 Rapido passenger cars a month at discount if I so wish.However,again for my modest needs the Athearn passenger cars will suffice or the Kato 4 pack in N.
However,as of now I am not interested in passenger trains.
Subject to change of course.
Jason,I'm glad to hear that the roof has been corrected! That's great news for me, as now I can focus on getting the painted models without worrying about possible modifications. Nice to see that you listen to multiple experts on the prototype, unlike a certain other Canadian company that made things for the NH. That other company said they relied on one NH "expert" (and I use that term loosely) to correct their NH products, and he was so wrong it wasn't funny. Thanks for not being like them.
Hey, since I got you, do you realize that you're killing NH fans with 5(!) NH paint schemes in the very first run? Are you trying to bankrupt us? I hope the NH sales don't disappoint you because I don't know of too many NH fans that can afford all 36 car #'s at once ($2700). For example, I can only afford 4 cars in the first run in just two paint schemes, and I'd like to buy more coaches later on when my "hobby money fund" recovers. I just hope they aren't all gone by then, and that you don't take initial sales of these cars as the limiting factor for future NH products. Thanks!
Brakie,Please stop with the Athearn passenger car comparison. You don't model the New Haven, and the NH was a passenger hauling railroad (3rd in the nation). Having a car like the Athearn represent NH passenger ops is like having the Athearn GP30 fill in for all those GP9's you have. It ain't even close, IOW.
Sure, using Athearn cars for NH trains can be done, but that doesn't mean that it's much fun if you are a NH fan. If one is trying to have fun modeling an actual prototype, Athearn passenger cars are anti-fun.
And the Branchline comparison? Sorry, but not even close. For starters, the Branchline coach is a commuter car. The Rapido coach is the 10-window version, which was used on mainline name trains (a "long distance" coach, IOW). Different service, different need.
The other is that the Branchline is a kit at $40 ea. The first one I built took me 7 hours to complete (I kept track for an article in a newsletter). The next two took me less time, probably 4 to 5 hours each. Call that 16 hours of labor for 3 cars. If the price difference is $35 ea. for the Rapido's, that means I saved $105 by buying Branchline kits. That would mean I'm working at $6.51 an hour just so I can save money? Sorry, but my hobby is running model trains, not building them (I build them because I have to). Sixteen hours is better spent on improving the railroad vs. building car kits IMHO.
More power to those that do and they can buy my share
If, in the 80's, you wanted to model the CIWL cars of the 20's/30's "Orient Express" (as in "Murder On The"), you bought Rivarossi cars and they were $75 back then. I know because I picked 3 up in Paris at a time when the dollar was at a high point vs. the franc, deutschmark, Swiss franc, etc.
Since you woudn't be be buying them, anyway, your share would be 0.
Paul,I think you missed the boat..What I said was the Athearn cars would fit my modest needs and no where did I compare the Rapido car with the branch line car...
Funny those Branchline passenger cars are heavy weight cars not commuter cars-unless NH used heavy weights for commter cars.
http://www.branchline-trains.com/blueprint/passengercars/pass_intro.htm
Paul,Buying RTR is a modelers option but,many perfer to build kits rather then take it out of the box,change out couplers(if needed) and place on the layout..
Like you would prefer the RTR cars..
I never thought building kits was a job..I see it has it is a hobby which in all truth is a money pit that we pour money into for our personal enjoyment and gratification be it buying RTR or kits...
As far fun..I would have fun running Athearn passenger cars as thousands do.Your fun comes from running exact duplicates of NH cars..See we're both having fun in our own style.
The hobby is large enough for all modelers regardless of modeling style.
Andre said:
You're treating the Rapido cars as if they were a commodity like wheat, corn or rice where there are substitutes.
-----------
Funny,I didn't know I was a commodity broker..
Brakie,Um, you did compare them by saying that folks don't need $75 Rapido's because folks can buy $40 Branchline kits. That's a comparison.
The single window coaches that Branchline came out with were heavyweight commuter cars on the NH. The others are all sleepers, and that's only a handfull (the NH only had a few overnight trains...longest run on the NH was 230 miles or so). The Rapido 10-window O-B cars were long distance coaches meant for use on mainline trains from Boston to New York City (the NH had hourly name trains every day). Therefore, if one wants to model common daily operations on the NH's mainline (like me), one needs O-B coaches from 1934 to 1968.
Paul,Once again you are twisting things around..
Nowhere did I say that folks don't need $75 Rapido's because folks can buy $40 Branchline kits.
Sure I mention the Branchline cars as I did Athearn.
I also mention the 3 kits for $119.85..
Also look again there are also heavy weight coaches.
http://www.branchline-trains.com/blueprint/passengercars/coach/coach.htm
These was used in regular passenger service by other roads.
Now,the NH used 'em the best way that fit their needs.
Of course---is there ANYTHING in N scale for those who run NH? Nah!!
At least I found my KATO RDC's--3 complete sets worth. All in about 3 seperate visits---I wonder what they gone for new---these I found in a fleamarket of all things.
Again though--no matter what one is looking for--you don't need to break the budget for the next 4 months by doing the whole schmeer all at once---or do you?
I'm acting like some kind of budget coach here--what do I know---
Brakie,Okay, let's review:Your first post: you start by replying to a post on a thread that's called "Sticker Shock" that talks about the $75 cost of the new Rapido cars, saying "Don,You're not the first to mention the price tags." You then said that a person you talked to said the Rapido price was "unacceptable" and that you agreed with him.
The very next words on the screen are, "A oddity is Branchline's 3 pack kits sells for $119.85..A fairly good bargain if one doesn't mind building kits." Therefore, you feel that $75 is unacceptable for a RTR passenger car and that $40 for an HO passenger car kit is okay. Conclusion: Since you've stated that Branchline kits are a good deal while Rapido cars are unacceptable, you are in effect saying that people should buy Branchline kits instead of Rapidos. This, of course, has the problem that they aren't the same car, and that those that want mainline NH coaches vs. commuter NH coaches are going to have to buy unacceptable cars from Rapido.
Where have I twisted anything around?Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
Paul3 Brakie,Okay, let's review:Your first post: you start by replying to a post on a thread that's called "Sticker Shock" that talks about the $75 cost of the new Rapido cars, saying "Don,You're not the first to mention the price tags." You then said that a person you talked to said the Rapido price was "unacceptable" and that you agreed with him. The very next words on the screen are, "A oddity is Branchline's 3 pack kits sells for $119.85..A fairly good bargain if one doesn't mind building kits." Therefore, you feel that $75 is unacceptable for a RTR passenger car and that $40 for an HO passenger car kit is okay. Conclusion: Since you've stated that Branchline kits are a good deal while Rapido cars are unacceptable, you are in effect saying that people should buy Branchline kits instead of Rapidos. This, of course, has the problem that they aren't the same car, and that those that want mainline NH coaches vs. commuter NH coaches are going to have to buy unacceptable cars from Rapido. Where have I twisted anything around?Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven*******************
Now you've torn it. You just had to go use logic on him, didn't you?
And he still doesn't recognize that the Branchline 3 pack is no bargain since it's 3 times the individual price (less $.09, big whoop). If it were buy 3, get the 4th free, that might be a bargain.
Now if Rapido (or Branchline) were to do Harriman coaches, I might consider buying them. Even at $75 a pop if they're dead on accurate.
Oh--and this little one fell over price as advert in Walthers for KATO RDC's as $80/car RTR. Pretty good for a small shortline/commuter!
Then again--for a dead accurate passenger coach any price in the $80 range is still pretty good--and within my monthly budget line!!
andrechapelon Paul3 Brakie,Okay, let's review:Your first post: you start by replying to a post on a thread that's called "Sticker Shock" that talks about the $75 cost of the new Rapido cars, saying "Don,You're not the first to mention the price tags." You then said that a person you talked to said the Rapido price was "unacceptable" and that you agreed with him. The very next words on the screen are, "A oddity is Branchline's 3 pack kits sells for $119.85..A fairly good bargain if one doesn't mind building kits." Therefore, you feel that $75 is unacceptable for a RTR passenger car and that $40 for an HO passenger car kit is okay. Conclusion: Since you've stated that Branchline kits are a good deal while Rapido cars are unacceptable, you are in effect saying that people should buy Branchline kits instead of Rapidos. This, of course, has the problem that they aren't the same car, and that those that want mainline NH coaches vs. commuter NH coaches are going to have to buy unacceptable cars from Rapido. Where have I twisted anything around?Paul A. Cutler III*******************Weather Or No Go New Haven******************* Now you've torn it. You just had to go use logic on him, didn't you? And he still doesn't recognize that the Branchline 3 pack is no bargain since it's 3 times the individual price (less $.09, big whoop). If it were buy 3, get the 4th free, that might be a bargain. Now if Rapido (or Branchline) were to do Harriman coaches, I might consider buying them. Even at $75 a pop if they're dead on accurate. Andre
Actually Guys,I will make this very clear.
When compared to a Rapido car for $75.00 or 3 Branchlines for $119.85 then to my mind that is a good deal.
Now if you guys want to paty $75.00 a pop for a passenger car then by all means go fer it..Just don't expect the average joe modelers to do it.Not from what I am hearing..
BRAKIE When compared to a Rapido car for $75.00 or 3 Branchlines for $119.85 then to my mind that is a good deal. Now if you guys want to paty $75.00 a pop for a passenger car then by all means go fer it..Just don't expect the average joe modelers to do it.Not from what I am hearing..
But are we talking the same thing? If I want a spot on coach that is an exact scale replica then I'll pony up the $80 or so needed to get it--and I'll do it month- by- month if need be. I've seen the branchlines up here going for higher--remember the limp wristed canadian dollar?--so any deal is countered elsewhere--