Freelancers are afraid of Rivet Counters

[trainnut57]

I have always been a freelancer (since 1974, anyway) and I am NOT AFTRAID of rivet counters. I have great respect for them. Most of the rivet counters I have encountered are well educated and probably designers, engineers, model makers, etc. Good for them. I am not all that well educated although I do have an Associate Degree in Law. I also have trouble drawing a straight line even with a ruler (my thumb gets in the way). I just don't care for the rivet counters that tell me how I should build my road. To paraphrase a commercial on TV "It's my road and I want it MY way!!"

[RicHamilton]

Ah, CN M420's I presume?  I managed to pick up an old Overland model of one of these custom painted in CN because I worked on a pair of them back in 1999 for a tourist line.  The only thing is that I have to renumber it from 2500 to 3500 (IIRC) so it matches what I worked on...before they painted it.  The model is a real coffee grinder.

Yup.  Exactly the ones he was referring to.

[vsmith]

Now that is a good modeler!

...or a complete maniac...oh wait, its about Cliff Grandt...yeah, great modeler (and maniac - modeling wise, jealous jealous we iz) 

[NevinW]

Speaking of cliff Grandt, I used to know Dale Darney in Reno, who was a superb modeler as well as the maker of the V&T Shops kits in Sn3 and On3.  He told me a story of a meet in the bay area that Cliff Grandt was at and displaying an scratch-built On3 logging train he had built.  In front of the guests he starts this train up and it starts making a squeaking noise as it moves.  After a few seconds he recognizes what is wrong and stops the train.  He then uses the brake wheel on each car to release the brakes.  He then starts the train up without any squeaking.  This guy had scratch-built working brakes on each car!  Now that is a good modeler! -  Nevin

[selector]

Shayfan, thanks for that nice story.  I feel the same way largely. 

-Crandell

[shayfan84325]

IMHO, this whole "rivet counter" label is wrong.  The discussion should be about rude people, not whether they are counting rivets or not.  I have seen rude people at train shows and in my club...and it had nothing to do with prototypical accuracy.

Here I am agreeing with Paul yet again....Must be the moon.  The idea that people who strive for prototypical accuracy are also rude seems to be taken as the de facto definition of a "rivet counter".  Many will say "yeah, but the guy who told me my loco was a piece of junk and should be burned was rivet counter".  Yes, maybe he was, but in the First place he was rude .....I think they are separate issues.  Most of the proto guys I know are not rude.....

I'll jump on the band wagon, too.  There is that old axiom of courtesy that goes "If you can't say something nice, say nothing at all."  I think it applies in nearly every case, and it always applies in public - even these forums.

On those occasions in which feedback is called for, if there is something negative to say it should be communicated in private (use a PM?).  It is also good to ask the person "How do you feel about it?" before offering your own critical views.  Often they'll say just what you would have said, so you don't have to offer your critical perspective; you can go right to offering advice for improving it.

I read once about how John Allen gave feedback to Cliff Grandt:  Grandt had completed a scratch built brass Heisler and was showing it to John Allen.  Allen took a photo and printed a large copy.  He gave it to Cliff Grandt and said "Look at the picture, every time you see something that shows that it's a model and not the prototype there may be a way to improve it."  I understand that led to significant rework and a better looking model (I saw a picture of the reworked loco - it is really nice).

What I like about this story is it was a case of one modeler sharing a self-evaluation method with another modeler.  John Allen never said anything to even politely diminish Cliff Grandt's work.  There were never strained feelings.  I think it's another example of what a great role model John Allen was.

[trainnut1250]

IMHO, this whole "rivet counter" label is wrong.  The discussion should be about rude people, not whether they are counting rivets or not.  I have seen rude people at train shows and in my club...and it had nothing to do with prototypical accuracy.

Here I am agreeing with Paul yet again....Must be the moon.  The idea that people who strive for prototypical accuracy are also rude seems to be taken as the de facto definition of a "rivet counter".  Many will say "yeah, but the guy who told me my loco was a piece of junk and should be burned was rivet counter".  Yes, maybe he was, but in the First place he was rude .....I think they are separate issues.  Most of the proto guys I know are not rude.....

Of course, it wouldn't make much of a discussion if it was freelancers vs Rude people (then again, maybe on an online forum....)

 I believe the term came about (feel free to fill the correct dates, loco etc...) from an advertising campain in the thirties?? when Lionel released a loco and claimed it was totally prototypically accurate down to the rivets on the tender.  Some one actually counted them and Lionel was embarassed to find they were short by a few when compared to the prototype.  Maybe the person who pointed this out was also rude????

 My two cents,

Guy

[Paul3]

Brakie,
Who made us judges?  C'mon...everyone judges everything they have an interest in.  When I look at any model railroad item, I'll think to myself "That looks good," or "That looks bad."  The difference between nice and rude is whether you voice that mental judgement (in a bad way). 

IMHO, this whole "rivet counter" label is wrong.  The discussion should be about rude people, not whether they are counting rivets or not.  I have seen rude people at train shows and in my club...and it had nothing to do with prototypical accuracy.

As for your "slob" fellow club member...hey, he's entitled to his opinion as long as he pays his dues.  The second you donate something to a club, a club member now owns a share of it.  For example, at my club we have 60 members.  If a guy donates a structure to the club, I now own 1/60th of it.  Since I do, I have every right to question it's quality.  You don't have to listen or agree with him, but that's the "price" of belonging to a club.  Consider the source, and move on.

Trynn_Allen2,
Public displays invite comments, both good and bad.  While the person making the comments may not pay dues, they probably did pay admission (I know our club's major fund raiser is our train shows).  If you invite the public to come see your layout (and especially you make them pay money to see it), you have to expect to get some comments.  You cannot silence the public any more than you can stop the tide from coming in.  Quite frankly, if you don't want any comments from the public, don't display it to the public in the first place.

SpaceMouse,
IMHO, if you post pictures of your work on a discussion forum, you are asking for feedback unless you specifically ask folks not to comment.  The point of any discussion forum is to discuss topics of the day.  If you create a topic, you will get comments.  It's that simple.  No one is exempt except the moderators...they can post something then lock it so no one can comment. 

RicHamilton,
Ah, CN M420's I presume?  I managed to pick up an old Overland model of one of these custom painted in CN because I worked on a pair of them back in 1999 for a tourist line.  The only thing is that I have to renumber it from 2500 to 3500 (IIRC) so it matches what I worked on...before they painted it.  The model is a real coffee grinder.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

[vsmith]

.......RIVET........RIVET..............RIVET.............RIVET............

Thats only four, your missing one...

LOL!

But shouldn't that be: That's only four; you're missing one...? 

 

I have a more correct responce back at home, but I won't show it to you.

[Dave Vollmer]

Congratulations.  Foobies win.

Dave H.

Dave,

I agree with your post previous to this one.  Especially in N scale we often have to accept the 90% solution.  Like my kitbashed PRR steam.  They may not past muster with the strictest of the PRRPro guys, but for most Pennsy fans, they look close enough that the compromises are acceptable within the constraints of the available materials.

The trouble with foobies is that the first 90% is easy...  For a boxcar, for example, you can change grab irons for an end ladder, lower the bolsters, change the door, repaint, decal, etc...

...but getting that last 10% out of it is the tough part.  Say there's one too few rivet lines on each side of the car.  Like you said, that makes it harder to letter the car.  But, is it really worth it to attempt to re-rivet the car?  Some may say yes.  But most of us would file the discrepency away in the back of our brains and move on with a 90% car.

I have some >95% cars and locos on my layout, but I also am OK with the 80-90% cars and locos, because getting those last few percent of accuracy out of them would be more work than fun.

Oh, yeah...  fun!

[dehusman]

Congratulations.  Foobies win.

Dave H.

[Dallas Model Works]

.......RIVET........RIVET..............RIVET.............RIVET............

Thats only four, your missing one...

LOL!

But shouldn't that be: That's only four; you're missing one...? 

 

[vsmith]

.......RIVET........RIVET..............RIVET.............RIVET............

Thats only four, your missing one...

[David Woodard]

I have argued this topic before.  I model what I want where I want and when I want and if it doesnt suit you - go on to the next picture.  I could care less about the rivet counters telling me what I am doing is not good enough.  On the other hand, folks who give good avice instead of criticism, are more than welcome to comment.  I tend to look over the people and try to say a little prayer for them at night.  They are so lost and self consumed they are beyond help from any earthly form.  Thus the prayers for them....  God Bless my cheap renditions...

[ho modern modeler]

.......RIVET........RIVET..............RIVET.............RIVET............

[dehusman]

Ironically a post on another thread brings up why rivet counting can matter it you do your own detailing and lettering of cars.  The thread was on typical prototype cars.  One common car was similar to a Pennsy X29 and models of Pennsy X29's are easily available.  Does it matter that the car they wanted to model really isn't an X29, its actually a variant of an ARA design (the X29 is the PRR's interpretation of the same design) and really is closer to a NYC or RDG variation than the PRR version?  Not unless you try and do the lettering based on a prototype photo and then use the rivets to judge where the lettering goes.  Then you'll find out that the rivet pattern on the two types of cars is different (as are numerous other construction details, most of which would never be seen.)

Doesn't make enough of a difference where I wouldn't use a X29 model to for an ARA car?  In my book not really.  I even helped provide material to one of the manufacturers to letter a "X29" for my favorite road (which owned the ARA designed cars.) 

But there have been numerous times when lettering cars I have had to fudge the lettering because the prototype and the model were different (the herald is in the center panel, hey, wait a minute, the model has an even number of panels!)  It also can make a difference in which number you pick for the car.  My road had 3 variations for the "X29" car, one had flat ends, one had narrow ribbed ends ("Murphy" end) and one had flat ends but was about a foot taller than the X29.  So knowing which is which helps me get a more correct number on the car.  But if the difference in accuracy is the difference between numbering the car 100123 (flat), 101123 (ribbed) or 102123 (tall) I think that its minimal trouble on my part to get a better number on the car.  Of course the best option is to get the manufacturer to put the better number on the car at the factory, then everybody wins.

Dave H.

[howmus]

Not to get off track again, but: 

(ever try to hold a Steinway close to your body?)!

 Tom

The grande piano used to have straight sides you know.  That was before all those big fat sopranos kept leaning on it..... (Victor Borge)  I've always been fond of the goucho legend for the invention of the guitar....

Back on track...  I have done my best to cultivate the friendship of several Prototype Modelers in the area even though I do Freelance. They have all been a valuable resource to me as i hjave learned about the hobby.  And, there have been very few "Rivit Counters" that have bugged me over the years.  It may be the "look" I have cultivated during 32 years as a teacher.   When I run into it here or at the other forum, I take what they have to say, put it in the old noggin' for possible use later.  And then I just let it ride.......  Most often I don't give a reply, when I do it is just a simple statement of why I chose to do something the way I did.  Then I move on.

To each their own (said the maid as she kissed the cow..).   

[2-8-8-0]

I find it interesting that guitar was mentioned here, but it brings up a good comparison. I play guitar, and one of my major influences is Steve Vai. However, i do not need to play as well as Vai to enjoy my guitar as much as he enjoys his. If a friend, passer by, or casual listener has comments or criticism of my music, i will happily entertain them. Most of the time, what they have to say dosent carry much value, at least not to me. This dosent mean i take any offense (usually) but simply that what they suggest dosent help me. Then, once in a while, someone will give me a bit of advice or perhaps a suggestion as to how i might better my playing, that actually works for me and helps me to improve.

Model railroading is, to me, a lot like that. As i embark on the construction of a prototypical...more or less...roster for my B&O layout, i am entering an area in which i have little experience. If, upon completion, someone offers suggestions on how a part may be made differently, a different technique for soldering, etc, i will be only to happy to accept, and probably try, their advice. If their comment is that my EL-3's smokebox door has the incorrect number of bolts....well, they are welcome to go build their own. If they want to suggest HOW i might make the next one with the correct number of bolts, thanks much!

I want my engines and cars to resemble my prototype. I dont expect perfection from myself or anyone else. I just want to run B&O trains. Im not sure where this leaves me? For example, i have no rib-side 3 bay hoppers, B&O didnt have any, so i dont want any either. I redecorate Roundhouse offset side 3 bays to resemble B&Os cars. Whether or not they are exact is of little consequence to me, an offset side 3 bay is close enough. Freelance? or Prototypical? I dunno, they look fine to me.

[twhite]

Not to get off track again, but: 

Ray--if you play Bach on classical guitar, you're more than welcome in my house--I could listen to Bach on classical guitar all day.  Come to think of it, I could listen to almost ANYTHING on classical guitar all day, LOL!   Just love that instrument, it's really personal (ever try to hold a Steinway close to your body?)!

MarkPierce--Yah, I DO have trouble finding my size pants, LOL!  That's why I'm on a diet, because the racks in my town are just FULL of 34 waists waiting for someone to come by and buy them.  Must be the Valley air, it makes us prone to getting sedentary, I guess. 

 Tom

[PMeyer]

I think it all depends on who's rivets you are counting.

Feel free to count your own. Leave mine out of it!

 

[RicHamilton]

I think this topic hasnt flamed because we all seam to agree that  there is a big difference between the Proto Modeler, and the Rivet Counter.

 

Aye, and there is the rub.  The term River Counter has been used interchangably on this forum with Prototype Modeller ad nauseum.  That is what gets my hackles to rise being a prototype modeller. It is even happening in this thread to some extent.  Problem is, rivet counters may not be all that knowledgabe.

I was a a hobby show one day and this gentleman came up and was looking at one of my engines and told me my number was wrong on the engine I had just completed (it wasn't).  He swore up and down that CN engines in the 2500 series were not those as he used to be a hogger.  He was both right and wrong.  The 2500's he remembered had long been retired and a new batch of locos from GE had assumed the numbers.  I just let him go thinking he was right as I didn't have  photograph to prove my modelling.

 

[SpaceMouse]

SpaceMouse,
IMHO, if you post a picture of your modeling on a public discussion forum, you are asking for folks to make comments unless you specifically ask folks not to.  If you don't want comments about your work (wrong or right), don't post it in a public discussion forum.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

The question asked was if we had gotten unsolicited criticism. If you definition of posting means that you are soliciting criticism I was in error. If you can post and not ask for criticism, then it was unsolicited.

[Trynn_Allen2]

Question:

How often do you folks get completely unsolicitied criticism about inaccuracy?  I don't mean when you ask "how does this look..."  I mean, how often do people drop by your layouts and start pointing out what's wrong?

Or when you post a photo and make it clear you don't want feedback, but someone comes in and counts your rivets anyway?

I bet it deosn't happen that often.  There are a few personalities here that will do that, but most of you seem to have tuned them out anyway.

This perception that there are hoardes of rivet counters waiting in the wings to strike the innocent without invitation or provocation is ridiculous.

Very few people really care whether you do your stuff right, unless you ask.  When you ask, you may hear something you don't want to hear...

The difference is I take that information onboard.  I may not act on it, but now I know I should have done more research.  That means I'll do better next time.

 

I don't think it's "hordes" but after spending say 60 hours on a coke retort (which was modeled from several different coke retorts) and then another 10 to 20 hours detailing it.  I got complaints and compliments alike.  All unsolicited.

I agree that home layouts tend to be less commented on, though I have gotten them, but club layouts tend to be "fair game" for others.  It doesn't matter if it's at permenat display or at a show.  The rude ones are rarely the unwashed masses, but instead MRers that think they know best and that their critiques are welcomed no matter if asked for or not.  Nor do I believe that just because you set up means that it can be critized.  If you aren't a member of the club you really don't have much say in it, and that all your critizism is going to do is a.) water off a ducks back or b.) my targeting you with mental 15"/52 calibre cannons and my general distain to answer questions, or notice you further.  About the only people I want the model/layout/module to commented on are those that I ask, or those that have built similar specific structures.

At Madison this year, there was a great example of this, I had seen an example of this gentlemans work in Milwaukee at Trainfest and had complimented him on it and asked what his plans for it were.  Had my father not been standing there with eyes starting to glaze over he and I could have chatted for an hour at least.  I asked if I could take pictures for inspiration and that was granted.  At Madison he found our set up and was looking over my take on the same structure.  Compliments were exchanged and we started talking.  He pointed out something that I thought was trivial (I don't have the space to model it) and I explained my reasons for not modeling it and pointed out that original purpose of the structure was not for Coke so much as the coal that was produced.  We both agreed that selective scope and room to model can have an overriding influence on HOW we model things.  Yet a person standing close to us commented that the gas was rarely the sole intent of the retort and that I was modeling it wrong for this reason.  As the original person left the interloper continued to badger me, so going so far as to follow me around the layout as I kept and eye on my train and tried to answer other questions.  Yes it turns out this gentleman was a MR, yes the gentleman had a habit of doing just what he did to me to others, but as another club member put it, he wasn't that great of a modeler and the only reason he was tolerated in other clubs was that he could wire in his sleep.  Either way after 5 minutes of this, it's draining and skews the rest of the days intercourse.

Rudeness happens.  Some people either have thicker skins or seem to be a magnet for attracting it.  Perhaps there is a manner in our posture that seems to say, "tell me what you think."  When in fact it should be take as, "I am happy running  trains."  Perhaps this is where the precieved hordes come from.

[Trynn_Allen2]

Okay, let me try and even this out.  I'm like a lot of you, a "Proto-lancer", in which I take a prototypical railroad and set it where it probably never ran.  BUT, I'm a 'rivet counter' in the fact that I attempt to duplicate the motive power of that particular railroad within the time-frame that I model.  Which means doing a lot of outside research to make sure I get the class and number of my particular locomotive models correct, and making sure that my rolling stock and accessories also fit within that particular time period (in my case, 1939-52). 

I'm a Freelancer in the particular geographic setting of my railroad, and also in using a certain class of locomotive that my primary railroad never owned, however I have created a plausible 'history' for that particular locomotive, since the railroad I model actually LEASED these locomotives during WWII.  Okay, I'm happy.  I just had my prototype go to Baldwin and get copies before the War Board froze the design in the early 'forties.  Which, I hope, helps to explain my particular well-known passion for these locomotives.   

So, I'm a bit of both.  And I enjoy the heck out of it, and to BOTH the Freelancers and the Prototype modelers, I say GO FOR IT! 

Tom

That is another thing I have noticed about proto-lancers is that the proto-lancing works both ways either Corporate or Geographic.  Several other members of my train club are geographic protolancers, ie they like the geogrpahy, but maybe not the railroad that served it.  Case in point.  The Portage & North Woods RR.  I like the route that the Soo Line/Wisc Central took between  Portage and Plover, I like the geography, yet have no intrest in the railroads that served it.  Yet I put a steeple cab trolley in the place of the original line, or leased Milw, GN & DMIR locos, BAM! it's suddenly intresting and fun to model.

Am I a rivet counter when it comes to the rolling stock, no.  Am I reasonably time accurate, yes.  Anything car built before 1955 has the possibilty of showing up, of course likelihood is another problem.

 

 

 

[BRAKIE]

Perhaps. Paul you may be right..But a nagging question..Who made us judges of others work without being ask?

I see this at all three clubs and of course on line..Never could figure why judge when  few really want to hear?

This happen to me..I donated a background building to the club and one slob ask why wasn't it  detailed better? A good question but needless.You see this building is 5 feet away from the closest viewing point and  three quarters of it is hidden by a taller building...Then this same slob ask why I didn't make tree instead of buying Woodland Scenics ready made trees? Well that was a no brainer for the majority of the club...I have limited use of my right hand and its very hard to do some things.I didn't reply with words..I just flex my right hand-closes about around 1/2 of the way except my thumb and pointer finger..Kinda looks like a "finger gun" LOL..The guy's face turn red and he walked away after saying a involuntary "Oh!".

At any rate I bought the trees for the area I was working on..Who was he to say anything?

This guy doesn't attend to often(every three months in order to pay his dues) and when he does he's a royal pain.

 

[tstage]

Paul,

While I will agree with you that a thicker skin is always good to have, I'm still going to have to disagree with you on a particular point of yours.

I don't think you can just flat out conclude or presume that everyone who posts a picture on the forum is automatically "showing off their skills" or inviting others to critique their work.  It may be that they are legitimately sharing something that they have discovered or learned on their own - e.g. a new modeling techniquie or project idea.  Discoveries can be "shared" without inviting or looking for a critique.

Wouldn't it be wiser and more proper to ask the postee first to see whether or not they are open and receptive to a said "criticism" rather than just jumping in with a comment that may not necessarily be welcome?  I choose to do the former, so as to give the person a choice in the matter.

Food for thought...not food for throwing.  

Tom

[Paul3]

Geared Steam,
I didn't say the guy who commented on the rusty hopper was right.  He obviously blew the call on that one. 

selector,
I think we can all agree that one should be careful not to offend when offering criticism of someone else's modeling.  Likewise, those who post their modeling pictures should also be careful not to be easily offended.  Both sides (the critic and the artist) should realize that text cannot convey emotion very well, and what seems perfectly benign to one can sound like the direst insult to another.

Brakie,
Sorry but I must disagree.  Someone who posts pics of their work is not "sharing" (unless they are doing a "how to" project).  A person who just posts pics of their modeling is showing off their skills in either photography or modeling.  Sort of like, "Look what I did!"  This naturally invites comments.  If they didn't want comments, then either they should say that upfront, or not post them to a public discussion forum in the first place.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

[BRAKIE]

Paul,Actually if one posts a picture of his/her work to my mind he is just sharing and unlesss ask for there should be NO "helpful" replies.After all the modeler may be doing the best work he/she can with their skill level or physical or perhaps mental handicap and we have no way of knowing their age either....

I suppose  we are not all master model railroaders or craftsman and model in our own skill level and may never be able to do better.

Its easier not to comment negatively on a poorly done model then to speak because of the above reasons.A kind word can work wonders in some cases.

[selector]

I sense that we are warming to this subject.  Let's please be a little careful about allowing it to boil over....just a gentle caution, that's all.

Lee, one of the regimental motto's in the Canadian Armed Forces (Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry (now in Afghanistan as of this month) is, "Never pass a fault".  In the military context, where lives are at stake, or potentially so, this has some considerable import.   I think you were experiencing a more laid back form of that from interested and knowledgeable modelers who were willing to take the time to coach you on how to think about your modelling along with emoting about it.  Good for them, and I'll bet you have passed that along.

Chip and Paul, I generally agree that one should not post an image here unless one is willing to accept feedback.  It doesn't always have to be complimentary, but it should always...and I do mean always...useful and nurturing in the goal of improvement.  When it gets too acidic or too involved and lengthy, it tends to poison a thread.  It can even be downright offensive and therefore at least as what seemed objectionable about the very image it was intending to criticize.  If it doubles the "offensiveness" of a thread's content in a single response, how is that nurturing and constructive?   It isn't, plainly.

I hate to keep have to keep harping on this, but everyone might just as well accept that it is my pet peeve, artless criticism, and I won't stand for it.  I do try to coach off-line so that no one else's sensibilities are offended, but I can't stay off-line if my "target" insists on keeping it out in the open.  Nuff said about that...I hope.

In the end, Paul, you are right.  Post?  Why post?  It's not a vacuum out here, and someone will notice something about an image that probably should be brought to the provider's attention.  It's the same with Lee's elders who patiently, and artfully, and tactfully, taught him to consider things he had not previously considered.  If you want to see a very recent example of a neutral and unhurtful way of drawing attention to something missing or just wrong, see Mabruce's reply to mikelhh in his thread "Photos of my diorama."

Edit- I got the thread and author wrong....sorry.  Now corrected.

-Crandell

[Geared Steam]

SpaceMouse,
IMHO, if you post a picture of your modeling on a public discussion forum, you are asking for folks to make comments unless you specifically ask folks not to.  If you don't want comments about your work (wrong or right), don't post it in a public discussion forum.

I believe the issue that Chip brought up is the person didn't take the time to look at the picture closely enough to see that the hooper was out of service and had been abandonded in place, with no truck, or possibly didn't even bother to read Chip's description of the pictures before they started to point out "issues"

[ShadowNix]

Fascinating discussion...  kudo's to all for keeping it clean!  twhite, I could not agree more! Like most things in nature (life), we are all shades of gray.  Meaning, to classify as white or black (rivet coutner vs. freelancer) is merely arbitrary and most of us are in the middle.  Sometimes, I like to rivet count... (e.g. when I scratchbuilt my Howe truss bridge); other times, I like to free lance (e.g. my track plan and "history")... For most of us, it is about enjoying the hobby and at times or in certain contexts, we are VERY detail focused and at others we are not.  Simple a matter of life and where we are.   I enjoy that as I grow older, I may be more detail focused in certain areas, perhaps even more so as I have more time, but I would hardly call anyone who is detail focused a "rivet" counter.  To me, what makes a "rivet" counter is the attitude, not the focus on detail, as many others have stated.  :) Train on... gotta get back to my new H16-44...told the wife I just HAVE to break it in today....shucks, 1 hour of running time :) 

 

Brian

[Paul3]

jecorbett,
About folks complaining about models with manufacturer inaccuracies...

You seem to be missing the point that we're paying money for these models from a manufacturer.  Some of us want accuracy for our dollars, and when we don't get it, we complain in the hope that the next run will be improved.  We have every right to complain about something we're paying money for.  A wise company listens to these complaints, and if merited (and if possible), changes the product for the better.  To be perfectly clear, I'm not talking about such things as expecting P1K to put Hancock Air Whistles on New Haven RDC's (a NH exclusive), or expecting P2K to put the extra water tanks on a NH GP9 (another NH exclusive).  However, having tall stacks on P1K RS-11's, tapered stacks on Atlas RS-3's, and wrong stack locations on TLT C-Liners are things that should have been corrected before they left the factory.

BTW, you obviously do care about the details or the rivet counter's obsession.  If you didn't, you wouldn't have posted a couple times here on the subject.

Dave V.,
I can't remember the last time anyone ever gave me unsolicited criticism about my modeling...probably because it's never happened.  In every case, I have invited the criticism by simply showing my model to someone and asking "What do you think?"  Then they tell me.

The way some people carry on around here, one would think that "rivet counters" are breaking into people's homes and leaving nasty-grams about one's modeling.   The actual number of times that one actually gets unsolicited criticism is probably on the order between slim and none.

SpaceMouse,
IMHO, if you post a picture of your modeling on a public discussion forum, you are asking for folks to make comments unless you specifically ask folks not to.  If you don't want comments about your work (wrong or right), don't post it in a public discussion forum.

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

[SpaceMouse]

Actually, the fact that with the exception of a very few people here, like less than one hand's worth, I find modelers to be both humble and helpful.

But I do get unsolicited feedback. Recently, I posted my diorama of an abandoned coal mine that had a rusted-out hopper with the front truck missing. One poster took it upon himself to tell me that hoppers in service would not be that rusted, that the services marks had to be seen, and I should spend more time studying the prototype.

But for the most part people are supportive. 

So much so that when I read the post that makes up the title, "Freelancers are afraid of rivet counters," I thought it was so absurd that I thought it merited discussion. It seems it has.  I'm convinced that the author thought he was stating a fact, as if it were a primary motivation for people to become freelancers.  

[wm3798]

I think it all boils down to the approach taken by the so-called keeper of the fastener inventory.

When I was much younger, I was mentored by a couple of guys who gently made me aware of things I could do better... "Oh, are you sure Conrail had a high-hood GP-38?"  and "Let me check to see if that's the right road number for that..."  These guys were no doubt very knowledgeable about the prototype, and were willing to share that knowledge with a pimply faced kid who clearly had no idea what he was doing.  At times I was disappointed that I would have to repaint something, but I never felt insulted.

If anything, the encouragement I got from these guys made me look more carefully at my work, and challenge myself to do better.  They were also more than happy to answer my sometimes inane questions, and I always found their suggestions helpful.

I participate in another forum where there are some beginners, and some "returners" who are clearly trying to find their feet in the hobby.  One fellow in particular is enthusiasticly working on an N scale layout, and he's challenged himself to scratch build just about everything.  Some thing have turned out really well, and some things, well, let's just say he's really enthusiastic!

 

Anyway, after fearlessly posting this shot in his progress blog, I wrote up a brief article covering what little I know about railroad bridges, and included some prototype photos I've taken over the years.  I tried to be positive about his efforts, and offer what I could to help him look more critically at his own work.  Several other posters also chimed in with helpful suggestions as well.  As a result, in last week's update, he posted this image of a much improved model...

 

It would have been really easy to just break out the flame thrower and demean the guy's early work, but it doesn't cost you any extra to try to be nice.  And incidentally, the modeler never asked for criticism.  He did however, express his appreciation to those who helped him... so it's really a two way street, isn't it?  

If someone offers you a suggestion, how do you react?  Does that make the situation better, or worse?

Lee 

[Dave Vollmer]

Question:

How often do you folks get completely unsolicitied criticism about inaccuracy?  I don't mean when you ask "how does this look..."  I mean, how often do people drop by your layouts and start pointing out what's wrong?

Or when you post a photo and make it clear you don't want feedback, but someone comes in and counts your rivets anyway?

I bet it deosn't happen that often.  There are a few personalities here that will do that, but most of you seem to have tuned them out anyway.

This perception that there are hoardes of rivet counters waiting in the wings to strike the innocent without invitation or provocation is ridiculous.

Very few people really care whether you do your stuff right, unless you ask.  When you ask, you may hear something you don't want to hear...

The difference is I take that information onboard.  I may not act on it, but now I know I should have done more research.  That means I'll do better next time.

[jecorbett]

If someone truly is bothered by the fact that a piece of equipment has one too many or one too few rivets, they are WWWAAAYYY too obsessed with accuracy.

That's a pretty judgemental statement.  Who gets to decide what is or is not too obsessed?  You?  Me?  Or each individual?  I vote for choice number 3.

No one is saying rivet counters shouldn't be allowed to obsess over such details on their own layouts. As long as they keep their obsessions to themselves no one would mind. It is when they expect the rest of the modeling world to share those obsessions they generate disdain. I'm sure the term rivet counter was born to describe those who felt compelled to point out the minor inaccurate details in other people's models and I doubt the term was ever intended to be complimentary. Being a lone wolf freelancer, I've fortunately never had the occassion to personally come across such a person. I have seen another form of rivet counter on this board. That is the person who posts a thread complaining about some minor inaccuracy in a recently released loco. I've read a number of such whines. As if the manufacturers are suppose to tailor every single offering to a specific prototype. Tooling is expensive and in order to make a profit  on anything except the highest end offerings, the manufacturers have to be able to sell their product to as wide a market as possible which means the same engine has to be offered in multiple road names. At one time, almost all mid ranged equipment was sold that way, the only difference being the paint scheme. Recently, some manufacturers have done some customizing through interchangeable details. For example, I recently bought some Athearn RS-3s, one in NYC colors and the other in Rio Grande. The latter will be repainted for my freelanced road. There are minor differences in the roof details. This approach seems to me to be a reasonable compromise but it is not good enough for some rivet counters. If these people are that obsessed with such minor detail differences, they should expect to do the customizing themselves and quit coming on this board to whine about it. Most of us simply don't care either about the details or the rivet counter's obsession.  

[markpierce]

I've been following this since my original post, comparing Rivet Counters to Baroque Musicologists and Freelancers to Romantic Musicians, and gang, let me just say that I was having a bad day at the 'office' when I wrote it, okay?  

Lesson one:  NEVER contribute to a post like this when you're in a really FOUL mood, and I was.  So, apologies to all--especially you people who posted that you LIKE Baroque music (believe it or not, so do I, just not to play it). 

Okay, let me try and even this out.  I'm like a lot of you, a "Proto-lancer", in which I take a prototypical railroad and set it where it probably never ran.  BUT, I'm a 'rivet counter' in the fact that I attempt to duplicate the motive power of that particular railroad within the time-frame that I model.  Which means doing a lot of outside research to make sure I get the class and number of my particular locomotive models correct, and making sure that my rolling stock and accessories also fit within that particular time period (in my case, 1939-52). 

I'm a Freelancer in the particular geographic setting of my railroad, and also in using a certain class of locomotive that my primary railroad never owned, however I have created a plausible 'history' for that particular locomotive, since the railroad I model actually LEASED these locomotives during WWII.  Okay, I'm happy.  I just had my prototype go to Baldwin and get copies before the War Board froze the design in the early 'forties.  Which, I hope, helps to explain my particular well-known passion for these locomotives.   

So, I'm a bit of both.  And I enjoy the heck out of it, and to BOTH the Freelancers and the Prototype modelers, I say GO FOR IT! 

Oh, and BTW, apologies to anyone my original, ill-thought hot-headed approached post offended.  Bach is very COOL, just don't ask me to play it on a Steinway, LOL!

Tom

Tom,

There is no reason to apologize.  I'm like you.  I wonder: do you also find it difficult to find your pant size because it is so popular?

Mark

[howmus]

Tom,

I once took a class because I walked in on the professor playing Bach's Fugue in G minor on a massive pipe organ.

Steinway wouldn't cut it.

Actually the organs were not that large during Bach's time and most of the time he played either the pedal harpsicord or the lute for church services....... 

 

I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist!!!  (I do play Bach on the Classical Guitar, BTW.)

Tom, I have already insisted to both my son's that at my funeral, the prelude will be Prelude and fugue in d minor by J. S. Bach, and for the other end of the service the Tocatta from the Organ Symphony by Widor!  None of that wussy crap with everybody crying (because the music was so bad....).

[SpaceMouse]

Tom,

I once took a class because I walked in on the professor playing Bach's Fugue in G minor on a massive pipe organ.

Steinway wouldn't cut it.

[twhite]

I've been following this since my original post, comparing Rivet Counters to Baroque Musicologists and Freelancers to Romantic Musicians, and gang, let me just say that I was having a bad day at the 'office' when I wrote it, okay?  

Lesson one:  NEVER contribute to a post like this when you're in a really FOUL mood, and I was.  So, apologies to all--especially you people who posted that you LIKE Baroque music (believe it or not, so do I, just not to play it). 

Okay, let me try and even this out.  I'm like a lot of you, a "Proto-lancer", in which I take a prototypical railroad and set it where it probably never ran.  BUT, I'm a 'rivet counter' in the fact that I attempt to duplicate the motive power of that particular railroad within the time-frame that I model.  Which means doing a lot of outside research to make sure I get the class and number of my particular locomotive models correct, and making sure that my rolling stock and accessories also fit within that particular time period (in my case, 1939-52). 

I'm a Freelancer in the particular geographic setting of my railroad, and also in using a certain class of locomotive that my primary railroad never owned, however I have created a plausible 'history' for that particular locomotive, since the railroad I model actually LEASED these locomotives during WWII.  Okay, I'm happy.  I just had my prototype go to Baldwin and get copies before the War Board froze the design in the early 'forties.  Which, I hope, helps to explain my particular well-known passion for these locomotives.   

So, I'm a bit of both.  And I enjoy the heck out of it, and to BOTH the Freelancers and the Prototype modelers, I say GO FOR IT! 

Oh, and BTW, apologies to anyone my original, ill-thought hot-headed approached post offended.  Bach is very COOL, just don't ask me to play it on a Steinway, LOL!

Tom

[vsmith]

I think this topic hasnt flamed because we all seam to agree that  there is a big difference between the Proto Modeler, and the Rivet Counter.

Where the Proto Modeler may not offer an opinion unless asked, where the Rivet Counter will make comments whether asked or not. The Proto Modeler if asked for an opinion will then offer helpfull advice, offer to show you his work and how or where to find ways to improve your work, whee the Rivet Counter, just negatively gripes about the work in question, offers no aid, and most of the time refuses to show their own work.

Positive attitude vs Negative attitude.

I'm sure that the same type of polarity exists in freelancing as well, its just much less documented.

[saronaterry]

I've been following the thread since the first post.It's kinda nice it HASN"T turned into a flamer.

Personally, I think the guy that takes a kit or RTR car , shaves off the molded on grabs and adds the correct wire grabs( or whatever) is a MRR. I also think that kind of prototypical accuracy is neat.It's just not ME.

If, on the other hand, that same guy came to my house to operate MY trains and mentioned that the cars I run for my era are not accurate( which I already know)that would peeve me

Maybe not "rivet counters". Maybe "nit-pickers".I wouldn't do it to them, don't do it to me.

We're here to run TRAINS!

Terry, modeling the BN on ex-C&NW ROW.(Protolancer?)

[selector]

...It's one of the reasons I'm not looking forward to hi-def TV...  I'll be able to see what my favorite starlets REALLY look like! 

Lee 

Just like when you see them in person, there's lots of spackle, Lee.  It doesn't look bad, except you can see the spackle a bit better.   It's an improvement if anything.

But, to get back to the D'Oh!'s in our digital images, I find that what gets me are the tiny spider silk segments.  They're in my trees, on the pilots of my steamers, between cross-arms on my utility poles.  My Niagara came through my longest tunnel once and I took a shot of it coming out the portal.  Only when I got back to the computer did I notice a wide swath of spider web wraped around one side of the pilot.  Strangely, when I went back to look, there it was!

-Crandell

[Dave Vollmer]

Yeah...

I think the rush to code 55 in N scale has something to do with the eyeball vs digital camera issue.  My code 80 track looks fine in person.  But in a digital photograph, each rail looks like the Great Wall of China...

[wm3798]

Boy is that ever true!  Being able to scrutinize your work with a close up photo almost instantaneously (I have to trudge down 2 flights of steps to upload my camera!) has been both a blessing and a curse.  Work that looks perfectly acceptable while standing there in the layout room suddently looks terrible!  But there's also a lot of shots I've taken that leave me very pleasantly surprised.

It's one of the reasons I'm not looking forward to hi-def TV...  I'll be able to see what my favorite starlets REALLY look like! 

Lee 

[SpaceMouse]

Finally, there can be fascinating stuff in the minutia.  Our detail-oriented fellows collect that information and they'll share it with us if we're willing to listen.  They'll also tell us how we can make our models better.  The diversity of levels of interest makes our hobby richer.

I blame it on the blankity-blank digital cameras. Until they came along, I only cared about what I could see.

[shayfan84325]

Prototype modeling is a very worthwhile pursuit and there is nothing wrong with reasonably pursuing accuracy in modeling. On the other hand, rivet counters have taken that pursuit to the level of obnoxious obsession. The term rivet counter isn't intended to be complimentary.

My guess is that nearly all model railroaders have some level of fascination with prototypes and we all appreciate accuracy to one degree or another, so where do we draw the line that separates prototype modelers from rivet counters?

Also, why do we need a non-complementary term to describe our fellow modelers?  I think we all contribute to the greater good of the hobby - with a few exceptions (forums trolls, etc.)

Finally, there can be fascinating stuff in the minutia.  Our detail-oriented fellows collect that information and they'll share it with us if we're willing to listen.  They'll also tell us how we can make our models better.  The diversity of levels of interest makes our hobby richer.

[selector]

Thanks for dropping in, Ed.  Great first post.  I agree, and that was the David to whom I referred much earlier when I replied.

-Crandell

[SpaceMouse]

If someone truly is bothered by the fact that a piece of equipment has one too many or one too few rivets, they are WWWAAAYYY too obsessed with accuracy.

That's a pretty judgemental statement.  Who gets to decide what is or is not too obsessed?  You?  Me?  Or each individual?  I vote for choice number 3.

My father-in-law was so obsessed that he measured intermediary chemical reactions in real time to 10e-15 seconds. (.000000000000000001 seconds). He didn't get the Nobel in chemistry because he died. His partner did in 2004.   

[Dave Vollmer]

If someone truly is bothered by the fact that a piece of equipment has one too many or one too few rivets, they are WWWAAAYYY too obsessed with accuracy.

That's a pretty judgemental statement.  Who gets to decide what is or is not too obsessed?  You?  Me?  Or each individual?  I vote for choice number 3.

[jecorbett]

I'm not thrilled with the term "rivet counter" either.  Perhaps we should adopt something a little more complementary, like Prototype Modeler.  Given the huge contribution that these folks make, I think they deserve a little more respect than rivet counter connotes.

In an earlier post in this thread, I differentiate between prototype modelers and rivet counters. Most prototype modelers want to accurately model their choice of prototypes within reason while at the same time accepting the fact that limitations of space force some sort of compromises, such as selective compression. It is pure folly to think we can model any prototype 100% accurately. On the other hand, as then name implies, rivet counters obsessed with the minutia of modeling. If someone truly is bothered by the fact that a piece of equipment has one too many or one too few rivets, they are WWWAAAYYY too obsessed with accuracy. Prototype modeling is a very worthwhile pursuit and there is nothing wrong with reasonably pursuing accuracy in modeling. On the other hand, rivet counters have taken that pursuit to the level of obnoxious obsession. The term rivet counter isn't intended to be complimentary.

[ed_n]

I've been reading these forums for years as a "lurker" but one statement here has prompted me to post for the first time.

Are we all so insecure in our hobby that they only way to elevate our own Modeling egos is to bring down others?

The above quote, IMO, is just not really a big problem in model railroading from what I have seen and read and experienced. It is, however, an almost perfect description of amateur radio. And they do it with such venom, anger, and personal insults it boggles the mind. Which is why I no longer have an amateur radio license.

In comparison, the "rivet-counters vs. freelancers" arguments here are downright friendly and civil, and the so-called divide is largely non-existent. Consider yourselves fortunate that model railroading has such minor divisions compared to some other hobbies.

 

 

[JimRCGMO]

Haven't read all the posts in here yet, but I'll volunteer my thoughts (and definition of a 'rivet counter'):

rivet-counter (n.):

1. One who spends more time in exactly following the prototype than I consider warranted or justified for the enjoyment I get out of this hobby. 
   
2. See anal-retentive.

Having stirred the pot a little, I will say that I do not fear rivet-counters (for me, when starting (back) in this hobby, I saw a lot less reason for rivet-counting than I do now). But then again, the rivet-counters might be the ones running the websites I frequent - to find out if a certain model of locomotive is (approximately) appropriate for the time era in which my RR is set. I just find it more enjoyable to aim for a certain approximate level of realism than for perfection. Besides, I don't have the budget to buy only those structures, locomotives, etc. (kits or RTR) which are exact models of a prototype. And since I'm modeling my own (fictional) RR, there are no prototypes for what I want - therefore, I only need a reasonable level.

I figure as my skills and knowledge get better over time, I might get closer to a rivet-counter's level, but I don't intend to become perfectionist about it (a la twhite/Tom's description). Oh, yes, I do like Baroque music, among other kinds...).

My . YMMV (Your mileage may vary)

Jim in Cape Girardeau 

[shayfan84325]

...and the corollary to that is that we should not assume that, in turn, we need to teach the rivet counter how to breath and have fun.  That is arrogance and egocentrism. 

Let us each have our fun in our own way, and in a collegial manner seek information and advice from each other.  Once again, don't expect the rivet counter (I am really beginning to loath that term...) to necessarily seek out those who are not rivet counters for approval or information.  It's not their nature.   They don't want anything except some technical how-to now and then, and they probably don't feel they are likely to get it from all those sharp-pointed "lancers" out there.

..of which I am one.

I'm not thrilled with the term "rivet counter" either.  Perhaps we should adopt something a little more complementary, like Prototype Modeler.  Given the huge contribution that these folks make, I think they deserve a little more respect than rivet counter connotes.

[selector]

...and the corollary to that is that we should not assume that, in turn, we need to teach the rivet counter how to breath and have fun.  That is arrogance and egocentrism. 

Let us each have our fun in our own way, and in a collegial manner seek information and advice from each other.  Once again, don't expect the rivet counter (I am really beginning to loath that term...) to necessarily seek out those who are not rivet counters for approval or information.  It's not their nature.   They don't want anything except some technical how-to now and then, and they probably don't feel they are likely to get it from all those sharp-pointed "lancers" out there.

..of which I am one.

[fwright]

I am thankful for the information the "rivet counters" put out on new releases and old models, too.  Because of the web-published research of others, I know which prototypes my HOn3 Roundhouse inside frame 2-8-0 comes closest to.  And I can choose how I'm going to modify the kit as I build it for my free-lance Port Orford & Elk River.

I have many similar examples of how "rivet counters" have helped me, even though I don't model their prototype, and have chosen not to use P87 standards.  If their criticism of my poor paint jobs is a bit abrasive, well - my paint job didn't come to their standards.  I will do better the next time.

I have to ask which is worse - abrasive criticism from a rivet counter, or a dabbler (to use CNJ's term, free-lancer isn't the right term) who asks for input but rejects all suggestions that don't align with his pre-conceived answers?

Obviously, I lean towards the rivet-counting camp, even though my modeling skills fall far short of their standards, and I much prefer plausible free-lancing to prototype modeling.  Maybe someday my models and layout can compete, but until then, I'm still having fun.

Fred W 

[Trynn_Allen2]

As a freelancer I think I can learn a lot from a rivet counter to make my RR more believable.

 

As a protolancer I couldn't agree more.

[pcarrell]

As a freelancer I think I can learn a lot from a rivet counter to make my RR more believable.

[andrechapelon]

With apologies to Rogers and Hammerstein and anyone who's ever been associated with "Oklahoma".

The freelancer and the rivet counter should be friends,
Oh, the freelancer and the rivet counter should be friends.
One man rans anything he wants, the other likes to annoy him with taunts,
But that's no reason why they cain't be friends. 
Model railroad folks should stick together, 
Model railroad folks should all be pals. 
Freelancer dance with rivet counters daughters, 
Rivet counter dance with the freelancer's  gals.......

 

Andre

[markpierce]

Attempts to divide hobbyists causes "negative waves."  So, stop it!  We can all learn from each other, using whatever information increases our satisfaction.  Model railroading is a joy.  So, let us enjoy!

Mark

[gmcrail]

Nice job of "stirring the pot", Chip! 

 The only thing that bothers me about this thread, though, is the tendency to equate prototype modelers with the obnoxious, annoying, and rude "rivet counters".  Prototype modelers are a fantastic source of information on prototype practices, which most, if not all freelancers incorporate in their layouts, to one degree or another.   "Rivet counters", on the other hand, are the annoying OCD types who feel compelled to point out errors and omissions on one's models, criticize (not constructively!) one's scenery or lack thereof, and generally make nuisances of themselves and thus unwelcome in any gathering of civilized human beings.

 We are ALL, after all, "freelancers" to some degree - our distances are foreshortened, our curves are ridiculously sharp, our scenery is more art than reality, and our locomotives, for Pete's sake, run on electricity, even the diesels and steamers!  And ....  Well, you get the idea.

So, show some tolerance, folks.  It's all just "pretend", anyway! 

 

BTW, Chip - I picked up a DVD of "Blazing Saddles" the other day, just to refresh myself on the good folks of Rock Ridge.  It's still hilarious, even after all these years!

 

 

[shayfan84325]

I participate in two hobbies, primarily.  I built, drive, and show a street custom VW; and then there's model railroading.  At car shows this same discussion goes on regarding restorers and hot rodders.

The way I resolve it in my own mind is that we benefit from each other, and that neither way of participating in either hobby is righter than the other way.  I don't believe that my freelance model railroad diminishes the hobby for dedicated prototype modelers any more than my modified car diminishes the car hobby for a dedicated restorer.

As both a hot rodder and a free lancer, I'm grateful for the way the restorers and prototype modelers maintain the history for us.  Without the prototype guys, we might lose track of what's plausible, and our freelanced layouts may start looking more like a fantasy and less like the real world.

I do believe that all of us are creative; it's just that the prototype modelers also have a penchant for research.  I'm glad our hobby gives them an opportunity to do it.  For me, research is too much like work.  I'm very grateful to the prototype modelers who freely share their knowledge - they save me a lot of time and effort.

In my mind, a model is an accurate representation of something else - based on that, I've come to think that the prototype modelers are the truest model railroaders.  I like to think of myself as a miniature railroader (railroad miniaturist?) - My layout is a plausible representation in miniature, but it is not a model in the strictest sense of the word.

I do think there's room for all of us in our hobby, and that we can even be friends.  It's just a matter of recognizing that we're both right: A prototype modeler does what's right for him, and I do what's right for me.

[vsmith]

Personally, I have long understood "rivet counter" to be a pejorative term for someone who obnoxiously and uninvited points out where someone else's model/model railroad/model railroad operations has a very tiny flaw or deviation from the prototype.  

For people who have expert knowledge, I call them "experts". 

Enjoy

Paul 

To define Rivet Counter, this is a my definition also.

As for me, do I fear Rivet Counters, shucks no! If I did would I continue to post pictures of my little nightmares .

My latest little large scale terror from off my workbench.

If anything I really enjoy watching them squirm at shows where I've shown them

I've said before I personally find prototypical modeling to be restrictive and stifling, but that hasnt stopped me from using real railroads as a source for material for my own stuff. My entire goal in this hobby is to enjoy myself and if some nutjob comes up to me and tries to enforce their own narrow definition of whats only acceptable in model railroading, they are going to get a very rude awakening...

[steemtrayn]

Is there room here for a rivet counting freelanceer who likes just about evything except opera and rap.

Not if you like bagpipe music.

I live in fear of bagpipes.

Q: What's the difference between an onion and bagpipes?

A: Nobody cries when you chop up bagpipes.

[jecorbett]

I differentiate between prototype modelers and rivet counters. To me a rivet counter is someone who has an obsession with 100% fidelity to a particular prototype and that nothing short of that is acceptable. While that in itself is not a negative trait, it does become obnoxious when they expect the rest of the modeling world to comply to their standards. I've seen that manifested on these boards when someone complains that a newly released item has some minor variation from the prototype it is supposed to represent. As if the manufacturers are supposed to tool their productions to produce an exact replica of some particular prototype. That is a totally unrealistic expectation. Most modelers are perfectly content with a model that is a reasonable facsimile of an actual piece of equipment. If it is that important to the rivet counters that each piece be 100% accurate, they should expect to custom the final details themselves. As for those rivet counters who seem to feel compeled to point out the inaccuracies in other people's models I would simply say, "Just shut up!".

[tstage]

The bottom line is that both "rivet counters" AND "freelancers" can equally be snobbish in their attitude and in their own position in the hobby.  That's called pride and arrogance.  Neither person is enjoyable to be around, IMHO.

For me, a rivit counter who thrives on detailing prototypically and accurately for their own enjoyment but who also is willing to share that wealth of knowledge and information that he or she has learned (*Prerequisite*: when asked for), I think is a real boon to the good of the hobby.  I don't think we would have the quality of models and detailed parts that we now enjoy if it weren't for folks pushing the modeling envelope and crying out for more accuracy.

Equally so, a freelancer who constructs a layout for himself and others to enjoy (for whatever the reasons may be) is also a boon to the betterment of the hobby.  I can equally enjoy, respect, and learn from their enjoyment of MRRing - even though I might not necessarily model in the same style or vein they do.  For me, this also holds true for folks (like the one that Dave Vollmer mentioned earlier) who go to the nth degree to detail something but never run it on a layout.  I can learn and get ideas from their intensive attention to detail and realism - even though I might not necessarily take my modeling skills quite to that same degree.

I am grateful that MRRing is broad and wide enough that all of us can enjoy it to whatever degree and extent we aspire and desire to enjoy it.  (I can ALWAYS learn from somebody else.)  And MRRing is as much about people as it is about the hobby iteself.  The idea that one way of modeling is "more creative" than the other is a bunch of hogwash, IMO.  This hobby IS a creative fora - no matter where your creative juices and inclinations steer you.

Rivet counter...protolancer...freelancer - whatever title and category you want to put yourself and others into: It's the extreme folks in either camp that look down their noses at others who are the detriment to this beloved hobby of ours.

Okay, I've posted my ...and perhaps too much.

Tom

[pastorbob]

I am conflicted.  My Santa Fe in Oklahoma in 1989 is pretty much prototype.  But, the Santa Fe sold an old secondary line, the Orient line in Western Oklahoma to a company that scrapped it.

So I "sold" the line to a new regional, the Oklahoma Northern,  horrors, it is a freelance.  I enjoy both lines, I have painted and decalled several diesels and lots of grain cars for the ON.  In short I enjoy both worlds with no appolgy to anyone.

 

[Kenfolk]

Terrorists, heavily armed felons, drivers under the influence, I sometimes fear.

But trains are fun, whether I'm working on my own freelanced layout, enjoying a very prototypical layout, or discussing both with the folks at the LHS where ever they are on this continuum. 

We all can't and won't agree on everything -- kind of like the members of a church, civic organization, political party, or whatever -- but we still can agree to be friends and be constructive, and to enjoy our association together. And sometimes, we can just agree to disagree.

My layout is and will continue to be freelanced, because it harkens back to my memories from childhood (which are not as accurate as they once were),  it is limited by  my resources of time, money, and patience (ah...patience...I'm still working to improve that!), and because I want it to be a layout my grandchildren will enjoy (when I get grandchildren). A large part of what I do is plausible, but I have a tendency to throw in a lot of humor--so as people look at it closer, they notice the funny stuff. Life isn't always humorous or funny, but my layout can be.

For whatever they are worth, these are my thoughts, and if you don't agree, hey, that's fine.

 

[tattooguy67]

I have a sign on my door that says "NO RIVET COUNTERS ALLOWED BEYOND THIS POINT". This is my layout and I'll run it as I see fit to.

Cool. 

Rivet counters are horrible people.

They are also the people that take the time to answer hundreds of "trivial" detail questions that people ask about railroads.  They know because they took the time to do the research.  They have taken the time to answer the questions.  Many of them YOUR questions.  I just find it interesting that you would dis the very people who help you.

If you don't want anybody who might have a clue about railroads viewing your railroad that's fine. 

Like I said, I would like to see a definition of a rivet counter.  I consider it a person who is an expert/authority/very knowledgeable in a particular subject or aspect of a subject.  Evidently many have a very different definition.

Dave H.

Actually the person you describe is not a rivit counter in the negative sense of the word, the person you describe is a gem, a jewel, a valuable resource, a boon to the hobby, and someone who would be offered free beer in my house!. The rivit counter to me is someone who would tear you down or ridicule you for haveing an FM-C liner numbered 9906 because every one knows they never went that high!, when in fact a. you never asked for the tutorial, and b. that is our wedding date thank you very much!, that to me is a rivit counter.

[tattooguy67]

Dave Vollmer says"

It amazes me how often people will discount out-of-hand any suggestion, no matter how kindly offered, that there may be a better way to do something, but yet they'll wonder why their layouts don't look like the ones in the magazines."

There is some truth to this statement, and as you say there are some that need to thicken their skin, but when you see a comment on some ones weathering like "it looks like the engine was run full throttle through a Sherwin Williams paint store", instead of like you often say the pos.neg.pos. sandwhich of "so you decided to try some weathering on your loco, you might want to lighten up some, its a little heavy, here are some tips, you will do better next time", or some such. Humans are funny critters in this aspect, if you post a photo and get 30 comments, 25 of which are the" hey not bad or this looks good" type and 5 of which are the "that is just awful, what are you thinking putting that up" type, which do you think will stick with most people the longest?, it may not be right but it is the way most people are.

[gandydancer19]

I think there is a rivet counter in each of us.

As we learn more and more, and try to achieve the realism with our models and scenery that a model railroad should, whether freelance or prototype, we become more knowledgeable. Possibly more knowledgeable that the modeler next to us.

I think where the rivet counters have created a bad sort of name for themselves is that they tend to dish out too much criticism for another modelers work.

My definition of a rivet counter is "Another modeler who will point out flaws and imperfection in your work and your equipment, and at the same time, doesn't have the skills to do the same things that you have done, build the models that you build, and has nothing to show of his own modeling skills, or lack thereof."

So, what I do when I run into them is simply say, "Show me your models. Put up, or shut up."

[on30francisco]

Luckily, I don't have to worry about freelancing, protolancing, prototype modeling, or rivet counters since I model in large scale and On30. I find that these two communities have a very laid back and tolerant attitude toward all types of modeling. Remember, no matter how you do it, MODEL RAILROADING IS FUN!

[dwRavenstar]

"I have what I like, I like what I have."

Perhaps the common phrase between the two perspectives.

dwRavenstar 

[hobo9941]

I ain't skeered of no stinkin rivet counters! I do try to make my layout, and my operations as realistic, and prototype as possible. But I'm not losing any sleep over whether my prototype locos had 3 chime or 5 chime horns. And I still can't tell the difference between an SD40 and an SD40-2, nor do I care. I'm having fun, which is the reason I do it.

I suspect rivet counters, are rivet counters in other aspects of their lives, and probably have a lot of stress. It ain't worth it. Lighten up.

[Packers#1]

My personal definition for a rivet counter is someone who is obessed with prtotypiclality on their pike and others, and when someone does something that ordinarily would not happen on the prototype, they point it out, and will sometimes freak out. Like on WPF last week, jktrains said that New Haven I-5 was running coaches together that wouldn't be running together in real life.

[selector]

Well said, David.  It's a sad circumstance when we feel we need to diminish or criticize the efforts and interests of others as somehow not quite as worthy as our own in order to feel better about our own decisions.  Very sad, indeed.

I see the "we" and "they", nameless faces that "we" are all talking about, but I have never met the "other" that "we" are supposed to enjoy vilifying.

I am quite certain I wouldn't have to work hard to enjoy someone else's layout for what it is, whether done down to the micron in amazing fidelity to the prototype or entirely fanciful and still fun and involved.  I would hope the authors of such works would, in turn, not have to work too hard to find something about my take on the hobby appealing and pleasant to behold...and talk about sensibly.

Yes, Chip, I guess I do have fear after all; it would be the fear that I might meet someone who would not be able to simply take my interest in toy trains at face value, with all its inaccuracies and ideosyncracies.  On the other hand, I fear I might meet someone who would not invite me to view his layout for fear I would be less than charitable about his version of the hobby.  We would both miss out on something.  I do fear that.

-Crandell

[IRONROOSTER]

...

Like I said, I would like to see a definition of a rivet counter.  I consider it a person who is an expert/authority/very knowledgeable in a particular subject or aspect of a subject.  Evidently many have a very different definition.

Dave H.

from wiktionary:

A rivet counter is a person having an obsession with the minutae of their particular interest, exemplified by a remark such as "you can tell the Mark 5 from the Mark 4, it's got an extra rivet holding the side skirt". The term is often applied to a railfan with a greater than usual interest in physical details, but may refer to anyone preoccupied with small distinguishing features between different items. Calling someone a rivet counter in effect criticises them for having an unreasonable obsession with trivial matters.

Granted it's an wiki open content dictionary, still... 

Personally, I have long understood "rivet counter" to be a pejorative term for someone who obnoxiously and uninvited points out where someone else's model/model railroad/model railroad operations has a very tiny flaw or deviation from the prototype.  

For people who have expert knowledge, I call them "experts". 

Enjoy

Paul 

[Packers#1]

What i meant about freelancers having more imagination is the fact that usually, we have to build from the ground up. Sometimes we'll even write down our railroad's history. Now prototypers probably have a little more scratchbuilding talent because of needing to build depictions of prototypes. Now, of course, all model railroaders have skill.

[Dave Vollmer]

This topic always manages to bring out such an overwhelming tide of ignorance it makes me want to curl up in a corner and suck my thumb...

People who want to follow a prototype with accuracy do not automatically look down on those who don't.

People who freelance are not necessarily more creative than prototypers.  I kitbash my N scale Pennsy steamers (pretty creative, I think), but many freelancers (not all, of course) just buy directly off the shelf.  Which is more creative?

It amazes me how often people will discount out-of-hand any suggestion, no matter how kindly offered, that there may be a better way to do something, but yet they'll wonder why their layouts don't look like the ones in the magazines.

Improvement comes by first admitting that you're not perfect, no matter what part of the modeling spectrum you fall on.  And if you don't want to improve, that's fine too...  but expect that at some point the rest of the hobby will pass you by.

[SpaceMouse]

I think that here's another Myth

Myth: Prototypers are not as artistic as freelancers.

Fact: It takes as much artistic talent to create a landscape as it does to create an abstract. In model railroading it, in fact, takes more ability. However, I would submit that to make a realistic looking layout in both prototype and freelance, takes the exact same talent.

[Packers#1]

Why should I be afraid of you prototypers? Ya'll just don't have a ton of imagination, so you follow something that has already been created. We freelancer build a railroad from almost scratch. Now who's to say freelancer can't add a prototype to their layout, or prototypers a freelanced loco or industry. But to answer your question: No, I am not scared of prototypers. Who cares if someone thinks my layout is bad because I didn't do something prototypical? Now to say I wouldn't try to work that in or learn from that suggestion... I think guys post that sign so that you rivet counters won't make a ton of negative comments without understanding the pike's flavor. Also, it is the freelancer's golden rule.

[steinjr]

Is there room here for a rivet counting freelanceer who likes just about evything except opera and rap.

Not if you like bagpipe music.

 When I was a student many years ago I used a tape recording of a Highland regimental pipe band playing "Scotland the Brave" as my wakeup call when I had to get up to go to work at 6 am on Saturdays.

 Until all my neighbours in the dormitory got together to remove all the electrical fuses in the building after I fell asleep, so the tape recorder failed to start on time.

 It seems that some people find the sound of pipes in the wee hours to be a frightening experience ....

 Grin,
 Stein, who is not going to get into the prototype vs freelance fight

 

[AntonioFP45]

The whole argument is flawed.

There are probably only a handful of real rivet counters.  I've met a few in the PRRPro modeling group.  They don't seem mean at all.  But they will spend a year on a single RB50 PRR express refer with no layout to run it on.

Most of us fall somewhere on a spectrum anchored at one end by running whatever strikes our fancy and strictly by prototype on the other end.  There are several myths that need to be dispelled:

Myth:  Rivet counters don't have fun.

Fact:  Rivet counters have as much fun as freelancers, just via different means.

Myth:  Freelancing is more fun than modeling a prototype.

Fact:  It depends on the modeler.  I went from freelancing to prototyping, and I'm now having much more fun!

Myth:  Freelancers freelance because they don't know enough about prototype railroads.

Fact:  There are many reasons to freelance.  Many very knowledgeable people (including people who work for real railroads!) freelance, because no one particular prototype meets their modeling objectives.

Myth:  The natural progression of a modeler is to go from freelancer to prototyper.

Fact:  Modeling style evolves as one's modeling objectives shift, and it's not always in the same direction.

Myth:  Prototype modelers have no respect for freelancers.

Fact:  There may be a bad apple in every barrel, but for the most part modelers are viewed by other modelers by their accomplishments.  I don't think even the most hardcore proto modeler would ever have called out Allen McClelland on his V&O or Bill Darnaby on his Maumee, do you?

Myth:  It's my railroad, I can run what I want, and if you don't like it, leave.

Fact:  We learn from other modelers when we open ourselves up to constructive criticism.  Yes, it's your layout...  but unless you want to be stuck in a rut until the end of time, you'll need to be able to look at your own work with a critical eye.  Often, that requires input from others.

Myth:  You have to take sides in the rivet-counter versus freelancer debate.

Fact:  Since few of us are actually on one of those sides, that's an exercie in futility.

Those are by two (or more) cents...

EDIT:

I belong to several other fora, and one is a pretty advanced modeler's forum.  There I expect and receive critical inspection of my work (not just attaboys).  I have already improved a number of projects from their comments, and am a better modeler for it.

Advancement really does require the occasional "Here's what you could have done better..." 

Dave Vollmer posted it so realistically well!    IMHO, the above statements  should be posted in one of the upcoming issues of MRR.

It's so annoying that as a whole we've let a few "grunts" on the Prototype and Freelance sides cause us to, unnecessarily, become divided on this issue.  It's downright ridiculous.

 

[dehusman]

I have a sign on my door that says "NO RIVET COUNTERS ALLOWED BEYOND THIS POINT". This is my layout and I'll run it as I see fit to.

Cool. 

Rivet counters are horrible people.

They are also the people that take the time to answer hundreds of "trivial" detail questions that people ask about railroads.  They know because they took the time to do the research.  They have taken the time to answer the questions.  Many of them YOUR questions.  I just find it interesting that you would dis the very people who help you.

If you don't want anybody who might have a clue about railroads viewing your railroad that's fine. 

Like I said, I would like to see a definition of a rivet counter.  I consider it a person who is an expert/authority/very knowledgeable in a particular subject or aspect of a subject.  Evidently many have a very different definition.

Dave H.

[BRAKIE]

Nah.

Rivet counting is a load of bull (edited by selector.

It is an inconsequential practice indulged by inconsequential people.

If you want to be anal about something that is supposed to be fun, go ahead.

Just leave people who ENJOY the hobby out of it.

Start flame war in three ... two.. one ...

Shouldn't the correct term be "Rivet Snobs"? Seems that way to me...

 

No..Only the bad apples not the good rivet counters that doesn't push their modeling style on others or nit pic.

Here lays the rub.There are those "rivet counters" that feel superior to all and are in all truth rotten to the core because of their action around others.Then you have the majority that are basically good guys that believes "to each their own".

[loathar]

Nah.

Rivet counting is a load of bull (edited by selector.

It is an inconsequential practice indulged by inconsequential people.

If you want to be anal about something that is supposed to be fun, go ahead.

Just leave people who ENJOY the hobby out of it.

Start flame war in three ... two.. one ...

Shouldn't the correct term be "Rivet Snobs"? Seems that way to me...

[tomikawaTT]

Is there room here for a rivet counting freelanceer who likes just about evything except opera and rap.

Not if you like bagpipe music.

Ah, yes.  The pipes, the kilts, the dead-accurate marksmen...

I am a rivet-counting freelancer, which gives me a tremendous advantage.  I am the only one who knows how many rivets there are, and where they are located!

I also have another advantage, which I have used on a few visitors who don't realize there are railroads outside the borders of the United States - I simply shift to my layout's native language.  Even if they hadn't noticed the katakana symbols in the reporting marks, the hiragana station platform signs and the kanji on storefronts, hearing Nihon-go (even with my atrocious accent) usually gets the message across.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - as I like it)

[jecorbett]

Freelancers have no reason to fear rivet counters because what we do is the polar opposite of what they do. They can't tell us something is inaccurate because there is no prototype that we need to be accurate to. If anyone should be bothered by rivet counters, it is the prototype modeler who has less than a rivet counter's obsession with 100% accurate models. They are the ones more likely to have a rivet counter point out their errors. Freelancers on the other hand can just look at a rivet counter and laugh.   

[howmus]

Well, Chip, IMO, Rivet Counters are the same thing as Baroque Musicologists.  Not a lot of them are actual working performing musicians, but they've sure got a lot to tell you about how the proper ways to interpret Baroque music with the proper instruments and techniques and ornamentation, and when you tell them that you play the piano, which didn't come along until right at the end of the Baroque period and is basically a 19th century ROMANTIC instrument and has a sound that is probably completely foreign to any of the Baroque composers, they'll just ignore you and give you a lecture, anyway.   Or try and convert you into playing the Harpsichord. 

Nah.  Tried the Harpsichord.  Brahms and Schumann just sound PATHETIC on a Harpsichord. 

I'll stick with the piano, and AWAY from Baroque music. 

And Rivet Counters. 

Tom  

What a shame. I go for Baroque.

OTOH, I also go for Classical, Romantic, Bluegrass, R&B, Swing, Boogie Woogie, Doo Wop and Dixieland.

Incidentally, did you see the recent (last couple of days) PBS special highlighting Jerry Lee Lewis? That man can play some piano.

Andre

Well, I for one, love Baroque incuding Bach, as well as Telemann, Fop, and Fux.  In fact I like the Baroque almost as much as I love the Renaisance!  Probably explains why I model 1925......

Every once in a while I see some "Rivet Counters" that have a sense of humour as well as vast knowledge of prototypes.  A week ago I took this caboose that I have super detailed to an NMRA Division Meet.

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An aquaintance of mine who is a MRR had been looking at it so I asked him if it might qualify for NMRA Merit Judging.  He said that he thought it wouldn't too hard to find 87.5 points to qualify the model and that he would give almost all the points for it in the prototype catagory.  I told him that 1.  I had found that there really is no one way to layout a caboose as almost anything could be prototype and 2. that it is for a fictional road.  He grinned and said, "exactly".  Then winked. 

I think we really make too much of this issue.  I have never had any of my friends in the hobby "attack" me or my layout because of a lack of rivets.....

[sfcouple]

Myth: It's my railroad, I can run what I want, and if you don't like it, leave.

I'm going to rephrase Dave's comment:

" It's my railroad, I'm not likely to change it to suit your tastes , and if you don't like it, feel free to leave. "

I'm doing a "Protolance" layout, taking a real railroad ( The FW&D ) and putting it into a place (Oklahoma ) that it never really got into in a significant way.

So I make an effort to have things be as true to life as I can manage. However, I don't sweat details that are beyond my current skill level / available time to correct.

Mark Gosdin

Is there such a thing as a freelance prototype?  If so, then that defines my layout based upon a West Virginia Logging Railroad that just happens to have 6 very attractive redwood trees.  I know it is not prototypical but I just happen to love redwood trees so they are modeled on my railroad.  And I'm not afraid of what anyone says as I enjoy listening to different points of view and my overall goal is to improve my modeling skills. 

Wayne   

[selector]

I would respect rivet counters (if I could see one to call him/her that...dunno if I could) for their attention to detail and their willingness to do their best to render that detail.  On the Grande Continuum of things that people have done well or poorly, some laudable, some bizarre, a very few of us know someone who is a true master.

So, we have to please ourselves and our sensiblities with all the resources we have.  Those resources include:

a. time

b. money

c. familial support (if in a family)

d. space

e. materials

f. interest

among others.   Those variables will conspire to produce varying degrees of fidelity to scale in the finished product.  Why anyone would fear someone else because of their place on the continuum, and label them for it, is beyond me.

-Crandell

[Hoople]

Well let's see, Rivet Counting is a long, boring, dull, task to do. Teenagers such as myself don't like those three adjectives much. I freelance, I like it. Not scared of Rivet Counters, just not one of them.

[BRAKIE]

Chip,Some of my best friends are "rivet" counters even tho' I been known to put several bad-nay-rotten apples in their place by tearing their pride and joy 110% correct models to pieces strictly by pointing out the flaws in their supposely correct model...Do I enjoy this NO and do so only when enough becomes enough...I much prefer we model our own style in peace and harmony.After all ours is a hobby that can be enjoyed by doing just that and there is no wrong way in what a modeler chooses for his/her modeling style..

Which brings me to what I call the "free wheelers".

These are a happy lot these folk that has no care or worry if a SD70M-2 is pulling their string of 36 foot beer reefers while their 4-6-0 pulls a string of Amtrak passenger cars...Nor do they care if the engine house tracks is being share by that SD70-2 and a 4-4-0..

These kind hearted folk is having to much fun enjoying "their" hobby.

[SteamFreak]

Is there room here for a rivet counting freelanceer who likes just about evything except opera and rap.

Not if you like bagpipe music.

I live in fear of bagpipes.

[kog1027]

Myth: It's my railroad, I can run what I want, and if you don't like it, leave.

I'm going to rephrase Dave's comment:

" It's my railroad, I'm not likely to change it to suit your tastes , and if you don't like it, feel free to leave. "

I'm doing a "Protolance" layout, taking a real railroad ( The FW&D ) and putting it into a place (Oklahoma ) that it never really got into in a significant way.

So I make an effort to have things be as true to life as I can manage. However, I don't sweat details that are beyond my current skill level / available time to correct.

Mark Gosdin

[hminky]

If you were truly having fun with what you are doing, you would be doing that activity, rather than filling bandwidth with crap.

I come to forums for modeling information, ahh, there seems to be less and less.

Harold

[SpaceMouse]

Is there room here for a rivet counting freelanceer who likes just about evything except opera and rap.

Not if you like bagpipe music.

[BlueHillsCPR]

Is there room here for a rivet counting freelanceer who likes just about evything except opera and rap.

[SpaceMouse]

In a word, yes. In the group I belong to we find no difference in the acceptance of those who are prototype modelers and those who are freelancers. However, they are quality modelers all, so the term Rivet Counter never arises in the group.

On the otherhand, an even greater divide (and snobbishness) than exists between the serious hobbyists and the your "nimrods" divides the "prototype operators" from the train running modelers who, incidentally, make up at least 80% of all hobbyists. Operations can be fun but it is very far from being the be-all, end-all, of the hobby, although you'd never know it to hear some operators speak of it.

CNJ831  

When it comes right down to it, I figure the perception of snobbishness from any side is larger than the actuality.

My perception is that there are more people who gracefully say "it's not my cup of tea," than criticize another's choices. I also feel that there is also a greater number of modeler's who would give a helping hand to a person with lesser abilities than those who would criticize.

In the end, I figure there are not many operations people who are not modelers at least to a certain extent and nor are there many modelers that are not operators to a certain extent.

Ultimately a person's reaction is a balance or imbalance between confidence their abilities and their insecurities.  

[SpaceMouse]

The whole argument is flawed.

There are probably only a handful of real rivet counters.  I've met a few in the PRRPro modeling group.  They don't seem mean at all.  But they will spend a year on a single RB50 PRR express refer with no layout to run it on.

Most of us fall somewhere on a spectrum anchored at one end by running whatever strikes our fancy and strictly by prototype on the other end.  There are several myths that need to be dispelled:

I know what you said had to be said and your myth/fact but I submit, that the "argument" is not flawed. Fear had nothing to do with reality. You only need the perception that rivet counters are out there waiting to shred your layout and modeling skills.

[CNJ831]

Freelancers are afraid of Rivet Counters - and that's why they do it. The post a sign on their layout, "This is My Pike," so no one can criticize them.

I'm not going to tell you who said it, but he is well known and it comes from the book, Learning from the Prototype. (1990) Not to be antagonistic, I think there's some good discussion here.

So is it true? Are ya chicken?  

Untrue, Chip. It is the many hobby dabblers that are in fear, those who live and die by the slogan, "It's my railroad, so I can model any way I like." They are worried about being informed that the quality of their efforts is downright poor and totally inaccurate. Like it or not, there's a very large difference between those who take the hobby more seriously and do quality, authentic, modeling (whether they be prototype or freelancers) and those who are just puttering around but still claim to be model railroaders. Nevertheless, the latter group wants the acceptance of the former and if they can't get it, the quality modelers are labeled "Rivet Counters".

CNJ831 

So, let me rephrase this. It's not a dichotomy between prototype modelers and freelancers as much as it it a chasm between serious modelers and nimrods?

In a word, yes. In the group I belong to we find no difference in the acceptance of those who are prototype modelers and those who are freelancers. However, they are quality modelers all, so the term Rivet Counter never arises in the group.

On the otherhand, an even greater divide (and snobbishness) than exists between the serious hobbyists and the your "nimrods" divides the "prototype operators" from the train running modelers who, incidentally, make up at least 80% of all hobbyists. Operations can be fun but it is very far from being the be-all, end-all, of the hobby, although you'd never know it to hear some operators speak of it.

CNJ831  

[Dave Vollmer]

The whole argument is flawed.

There are probably only a handful of real rivet counters.  I've met a few in the PRRPro modeling group.  They don't seem mean at all.  But they will spend a year on a single RB50 PRR express refer with no layout to run it on.

Most of us fall somewhere on a spectrum anchored at one end by running whatever strikes our fancy and strictly by prototype on the other end.  There are several myths that need to be dispelled:

Myth:  Rivet counters don't have fun.

Fact:  Rivet counters have as much fun as freelancers, just via different means.

Myth:  Freelancing is more fun than modeling a prototype.

Fact:  It depends on the modeler.  I went from freelancing to prototyping, and I'm now having much more fun!

Myth:  Freelancers freelance because they don't know enough about prototype railroads.

Fact:  There are many reasons to freelance.  Many very knowledgeable people (including people who work for real railroads!) freelance, because no one particular prototype meets their modeling objectives.

Myth:  The natural progression of a modeler is to go from freelancer to prototyper.

Fact:  Modeling style evolves as one's modeling objectives shift, and it's not always in the same direction.

Myth:  Prototype modelers have no respect for freelancers.

Fact:  There may be a bad apple in every barrel, but for the most part modelers are viewed by other modelers by their accomplishments.  I don't think even the most hardcore proto modeler would ever have called out Allen McClelland on his V&O or Bill Darnaby on his Maumee, do you?

Myth:  It's my railroad, I can run what I want, and if you don't like it, leave.

Fact:  We learn from other modelers when we open ourselves up to constructive criticism.  Yes, it's your layout...  but unless you want to be stuck in a rut until the end of time, you'll need to be able to look at your own work with a critical eye.  Often, that requires input from others.

Myth:  You have to take sides in the rivet-counter versus freelancer debate.

Fact:  Since few of us are actually on one of those sides, that's an exercie in futility.

Those are by two (or more) cents...

EDIT:

I belong to several other fora, and one is a pretty advanced modeler's forum.  There I expect and receive critical inspection of my work (not just attaboys).  I have already improved a number of projects from their comments, and am a better modeler for it.

Advancement really does require the occasional "Here's what you could have done better..." 

[SpaceMouse]

Lee,

Just for the record, I can enjoy the layouts of John Allen, George Selios,and Malcom Furlow, but I'm not going to build a layout like them. Likewise I can enjoy Pelle, S. (not going to try to spell it) and Jack Burgess, but I'm not going to change the color of the sheets or model the clothes a certain person is wearing in a photo.

I'd like to model something that more on the realistic side of plausible but if I cant find the exact way to marry my knowledge of how the prototype actually worked with my available space, I'll fudge to make it work. But I will give it every effort to make it work.

But I can only model my perception of real life--and those of you that have a lock the limits of what's real and what's not, I salute you--and I think life is hilarious. Therefore, I intend to creates scenes on my layout that both fit the period and strike the funny bone.  

[IRONROOSTER]

One of the continuums of the art of model railroading is from impressionist painting to photographer.  We each choose where we want to be, but any place is as equally valid as another.

Enjoy

Paul 

[Railphotog]

RULE 1 :  This is my railroad.

RULE 2:   While illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices are always welcome, in the event of a visitor-perceived anachronisms, detail dispcrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1 !

 

 

 

[Fergmiester]

I think it's the other way around. They fear us as they see us having fun and that escapes them. They can run but they can't have FUN!

I Can smell the fear despite the coal fires glowing. 

[SpaceMouse]

Freelancers are afraid of Rivet Counters - and that's why they do it. The post a sign on their layout, "This is My Pike," so no one can criticize them.

I'm not going to tell you who said it, but he is well known and it comes from the book, Learning from the Prototype. (1990) Not to be antagonistic, I think there's some good discussion here.

So is it true? Are ya chicken?  

Untrue, Chip. It is the many hobby dabblers that are in fear, those who live and die by the slogan, "It's my railroad, so I can model any way I like." They are worried about being informed that the quality of their efforts is downright poor and totally inaccurate. Like it or not, there's a very large difference between those who take the hobby more seriously and do quality, authentic, modeling (whether they be prototype or freelancers) and those who are just puttering around but still claim to be model railroaders. Nevertheless, the latter group wants the acceptance of the former and if they can't get it, the quality modelers are labeled "Rivet Counters".

CNJ831 

So, let me rephrase this. It's not a dichotomy between prototype modelers and freelancers as much as it it a chasm between serious modelers and nimrods?

[wm3798]

I think you may have it the other way around.  As a proto guy (not in the strictest sense, to be sure, but nonetheless...) I get a little envious of guys who throw caution to the wind, and just roll with it.  I believe that pursuing a prototype flavor has its merits, but lately I've been installing decoders for people, so I've had a wide variety of "visiting" power.  I must say, I enjoy running Conrail GP-38's and N&W 2-8-8-2's as much as I enjoy running my WM stuff.

But when it comes to operating session time, I tighten back up, pull anything off the layout that's out of place, and try to adhere to a rigorous schedule of WM trains and their connections.

One important note, don't confuse "free-lancers" with guys who just don't have much experience in the hobby.  Everybody starts somewhere.  Bachmann EZ Track and a grass matte is ground zero for many of us.  As we move forward, and develop our skills and our knowledge, the choice between free-lance and prototype becomes more clearly defined.

Also, those whose development gets stunted at the grass matte stage may not be as advanced as some others, but that doesn't mean they are any less happy, or any less challenged by the hobby.  We all have different goals, and different skills to work on those goals.

Lee 

[CNJ831]

Freelancers are afraid of Rivet Counters - and that's why they do it. The post a sign on their layout, "This is My Pike," so no one can criticize them.

I'm not going to tell you who said it, but he is well known and it comes from the book, Learning from the Prototype. (1990) Not to be antagonistic, I think there's some good discussion here.

So is it true? Are ya chicken?  

Untrue, Chip. It is the many hobby dabblers that are in fear, those who live and die by the slogan, "It's my railroad, so I can model any way I like." They are worried about being informed that the quality of their efforts is downright poor and totally inaccurate. Like it or not, there's a very large difference between those who take the hobby more seriously and do quality, authentic, modeling (whether they be prototype or freelancers) and those who are just puttering around but still claim to be model railroaders. Nevertheless, the latter group wants the acceptance of the former and if they can't get it, the quality modelers are labeled "Rivet Counters".

CNJ831 

[jeffrey-wimberly]

I have a sign on my door that says "NO RIVET COUNTERS ALLOWED BEYOND THIS POINT". This is my layout and I'll run it as I see fit to.

[GTX765]

No, I am a freelancer and I find the rivet counters annoying. I have no fear, but I am not as engrossed in Model railroading as others. I have other hobbies depending on the season. If you want to count rivets and have a museum grade layout go right ahead. I got into the hobby because my mother threw my train stuff away when I was seven and frankly I was not finished with it yet. I enjoy the forum and the knowledge from members who might be rivet counters. I am more of an operator as my train club calls it. I do like the nicer more realistic rolling stock by intermountain but would rather spend the money on a legendary steam engine than on a $26 tanker car. The reason I say tanker car is I saw these really neat intermountain MCP tanker cars with a corn stalk logo. They wanted $26.50 a car at the LTS. Also on my 40 minute drive home down highway six I saw BNSF engines pulling the exact cars! So maybe I have not detailed and weathered my engines or have a layout that is not a perfect photo quality detailing of the exact part of the United States of my railroads but I am having fun and being a part of the hobby. Do not understand the chicken part of it all but I gave my

[Lillen]

Nah.

Rivet counting is bullshit.

It is an inconsequential practice indulged by inconsequential people.

If you want to be anal about something that is supposed to be fun, go ahead.

Just leave people who ENJOY the hobby out of it.

Start flame war in three ... two.. one ...

 

Do you like Penn and Teller? 

 

For me, it's No I'm not afraid of rivet counters. But I do not like people of either persuasion saying that your nor "correct" if you don't do what they do. This hobby is to small to have two camps fighting over what is right. Both sides should just enjoy the hobby in a way that they like.

 

When a rivet counter tells me that what I'm doing is stupid it makes me sad. Not for me or the insult. But for the fact that someone can not let other people enjoy aspects of the hobby that they choose to enjoy.

 

Magnus

[Dallas Model Works]

Nah.

Rivet counting is a load of bull (edited by selector.

It is an inconsequential practice indulged by inconsequential people.

If you want to be anal about something that is supposed to be fun, go ahead.

Just leave people who ENJOY the hobby out of it.

Start flame war in three ... two.. one ...

[wjstix]

Well you could argue the prototype-only modellers are afraid to (or unable to) be creative. I remember a friend of mine (a well respected local modeller) saying he would like to freelance, but couldn't design a realistic paint scheme so stuck with prototype models. To me, I like being able to create places that never existed before, with a realistic yet ficticious railroad serving it - but all within the bounds of reality.

Besides, most of us free-lancers have railroads that connect with "real" railroads, so there is some mix of the two - just as all but the most dedicated proto modellers do a little freelancing, like modelling a ficticious branch of a real railroad.

[dehusman]

I do a lot of research on stuff so I guess I would fall into the more "rivet counter" end of the pool.

I don't like the name because it has negative conotations (Space Mouse never defined what he thought a "rivet counter" was).  I don't think there is anything wrong with knowing more about stuff and I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to improve your modeling.

I model 1900-1905.  I have been able to gather a pretty good amount of information.  I have to make compromises, such as using the Bachman spectrum 4-4-0 and 4-6-0 as engines on my layout.  On the other than I just finished lettering several for the line I model, numbering them based on the numbering scheme I've found and one that hast be repainted for the P&R which bought the W&N in the correct re-number.  In addition I removed the valve gear, generator and headlights (and will replace them with kerosene headlights).

I know plenty of "rivet counters" who are active modelers, so the guy who knows everything but never actually builds a model isn't accurate either.

Dave H.

[andrechapelon]

Well, Chip, IMO, Rivet Counters are the same thing as Baroque Musicologists.  Not a lot of them are actual working performing musicians, but they've sure got a lot to tell you about how the proper ways to interpret Baroque music with the proper instruments and techniques and ornamentation, and when you tell them that you play the piano, which didn't come along until right at the end of the Baroque period and is basically a 19th century ROMANTIC instrument and has a sound that is probably completely foreign to any of the Baroque composers, they'll just ignore you and give you a lecture, anyway.   Or try and convert you into playing the Harpsichord. 

Nah.  Tried the Harpsichord.  Brahms and Schumann just sound PATHETIC on a Harpsichord. 

I'll stick with the piano, and AWAY from Baroque music. 

And Rivet Counters. 

Tom  

What a shame. I go for Baroque.

OTOH, I also go for Classical, Romantic, Bluegrass, R&B, Swing, Boogie Woogie, Doo Wop and Dixieland.

Incidentally, did you see the recent (last couple of days) PBS special highlighting Jerry Lee Lewis? That man can play some piano.

Andre

 

[twhite]

Well, Chip, IMO, Rivet Counters are the same thing as Baroque Musicologists.  Not a lot of them are actual working performing musicians, but they've sure got a lot to tell you about how the proper ways to interpret Baroque music with the proper instruments and techniques and ornamentation, and when you tell them that you play the piano, which didn't come along until right at the end of the Baroque period and is basically a 19th century ROMANTIC instrument and has a sound that is probably completely foreign to any of the Baroque composers, they'll just ignore you and give you a lecture, anyway.   Or try and convert you into playing the Harpsichord. 

Nah.  Tried the Harpsichord.  Brahms and Schumann just sound PATHETIC on a Harpsichord. 

I'll stick with the piano, and AWAY from Baroque music. 

And Rivet Counters. 

Tom  

[rolleiman]

I might have been a little snarky in my first response to you.. Actually, to some extent, I think most do the same thing with the possible exception of people who choose to labor over one single model of something. I have respect for both who can pull it off and with my newest layout design, I'm trying to move more into the rivet counter mode. Or better put for me, prototype modeling. I still, and always will, go at it with the 'this is my pike' attitude but at the same time, I'm open to listening to the counters for constructive advice. Wasn't always that way until I started buying brass that was supposed to be a model of something. If I'm going to pay that kind of money darn it, I want it to be RIGHT!! I still remember pouring over published plans and photos of one of my first, a Hallmark (brand) Wabash M1 4-8-2.

Be interesting to see where this discussion goes. Hope it doesn't actually turn into a contest...

 

[SpaceMouse]

Actually, I was kinda stirring the pot, But I got into freelancing partly because I didn't know better.

I knew I wanted a logging layout and big trees, but I also wanted something for my kids to run and I figured I'd take a couple weeks and put together a 4 x 8 layout for my kids. Two months later, I got all the turnouts working and my kids weren't interested any more.

So I had a track and a vision of running in a canyon with Striated Rock and Rock Ridge was born.

I went into it knowing what I had in mind did not exist any where--so I just made up what I saw. I didn't know what a rivet counter was. Now I know it's the modeler that goes by the name--

[rolleiman]

and that's why they do it. The post a sign on their layout, "This is My Pike," so no one can criticize them.

I'm not going to tell you who said it, but he is well known and it comes from the book, Learning from the Prototype. Not to be antagonistic, I think there's some good discussion here.

So is it true? Are ya chicken?  

 

You really are looking for a fight tonight, Aren't you .. 

To answer your post, as a basic freelancer (most of the time), No, I am not afraid of rivet counters. I aspire to acheive their skill level.