Freelancers are afraid of Rivet Counters

[SpaceMouse]

and that's why they do it. The post a sign on their layout, "This is My Pike," so no one can criticize them.

I'm not going to tell you who said it, but he is well known and it comes from the book, Learning from the Prototype. (1990) Not to be antagonistic, I think there's some good discussion here.

So is it true? Are ya chicken?  

 

[rolleiman]

and that's why they do it. The post a sign on their layout, "This is My Pike," so no one can criticize them.

I'm not going to tell you who said it, but he is well known and it comes from the book, Learning from the Prototype. Not to be antagonistic, I think there's some good discussion here.

So is it true? Are ya chicken?  

 

You really are looking for a fight tonight, Aren't you .. 

To answer your post, as a basic freelancer (most of the time), No, I am not afraid of rivet counters. I aspire to acheive their skill level.   

[SpaceMouse]

Actually, I was kinda stirring the pot, But I got into freelancing partly because I didn't know better.

I knew I wanted a logging layout and big trees, but I also wanted something for my kids to run and I figured I'd take a couple weeks and put together a 4 x 8 layout for my kids. Two months later, I got all the turnouts working and my kids weren't interested any more.

So I had a track and a vision of running in a canyon with Striated Rock and Rock Ridge was born.

I went into it knowing what I had in mind did not exist any where--so I just made up what I saw. I didn't know what a rivet counter was. Now I know it's the modeler that goes by the name--

[rolleiman]

I might have been a little snarky in my first response to you.. Actually, to some extent, I think most do the same thing with the possible exception of people who choose to labor over one single model of something. I have respect for both who can pull it off and with my newest layout design, I'm trying to move more into the rivet counter mode. Or better put for me, prototype modeling. I still, and always will, go at it with the 'this is my pike' attitude but at the same time, I'm open to listening to the counters for constructive advice. Wasn't always that way until I started buying brass that was supposed to be a model of something. If I'm going to pay that kind of money darn it, I want it to be RIGHT!! I still remember pouring over published plans and photos of one of my first, a Hallmark (brand) Wabash M1 4-8-2.

Be interesting to see where this discussion goes. Hope it doesn't actually turn into a contest...

 

[twhite]

Well, Chip, IMO, Rivet Counters are the same thing as Baroque Musicologists.  Not a lot of them are actual working performing musicians, but they've sure got a lot to tell you about how the proper ways to interpret Baroque music with the proper instruments and techniques and ornamentation, and when you tell them that you play the piano, which didn't come along until right at the end of the Baroque period and is basically a 19th century ROMANTIC instrument and has a sound that is probably completely foreign to any of the Baroque composers, they'll just ignore you and give you a lecture, anyway.   Or try and convert you into playing the Harpsichord. 

Nah.  Tried the Harpsichord.  Brahms and Schumann just sound PATHETIC on a Harpsichord. 

I'll stick with the piano, and AWAY from Baroque music. 

And Rivet Counters. 

Tom  

[andrechapelon]

Well, Chip, IMO, Rivet Counters are the same thing as Baroque Musicologists.  Not a lot of them are actual working performing musicians, but they've sure got a lot to tell you about how the proper ways to interpret Baroque music with the proper instruments and techniques and ornamentation, and when you tell them that you play the piano, which didn't come along until right at the end of the Baroque period and is basically a 19th century ROMANTIC instrument and has a sound that is probably completely foreign to any of the Baroque composers, they'll just ignore you and give you a lecture, anyway.   Or try and convert you into playing the Harpsichord. 

Nah.  Tried the Harpsichord.  Brahms and Schumann just sound PATHETIC on a Harpsichord. 

I'll stick with the piano, and AWAY from Baroque music. 

And Rivet Counters. 

Tom  

What a shame. I go for Baroque.

OTOH, I also go for Classical, Romantic, Bluegrass, R&B, Swing, Boogie Woogie, Doo Wop and Dixieland.

Incidentally, did you see the recent (last couple of days) PBS special highlighting Jerry Lee Lewis? That man can play some piano.

Andre

 

[dehusman]

I do a lot of research on stuff so I guess I would fall into the more "rivet counter" end of the pool.

I don't like the name because it has negative conotations (Space Mouse never defined what he thought a "rivet counter" was).  I don't think there is anything wrong with knowing more about stuff and I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to improve your modeling.

I model 1900-1905.  I have been able to gather a pretty good amount of information.  I have to make compromises, such as using the Bachman spectrum 4-4-0 and 4-6-0 as engines on my layout.  On the other than I just finished lettering several for the line I model, numbering them based on the numbering scheme I've found and one that hast be repainted for the P&R which bought the W&N in the correct re-number.  In addition I removed the valve gear, generator and headlights (and will replace them with kerosene headlights).

I know plenty of "rivet counters" who are active modelers, so the guy who knows everything but never actually builds a model isn't accurate either.

Dave H.

[wjstix]

Well you could argue the prototype-only modellers are afraid to (or unable to) be creative. I remember a friend of mine (a well respected local modeller) saying he would like to freelance, but couldn't design a realistic paint scheme so stuck with prototype models. To me, I like being able to create places that never existed before, with a realistic yet ficticious railroad serving it - but all within the bounds of reality.

Besides, most of us free-lancers have railroads that connect with "real" railroads, so there is some mix of the two - just as all but the most dedicated proto modellers do a little freelancing, like modelling a ficticious branch of a real railroad.

[Dallas Model Works]

Nah.

Rivet counting is a load of bull (edited by selector.

It is an inconsequential practice indulged by inconsequential people.

If you want to be anal about something that is supposed to be fun, go ahead.

Just leave people who ENJOY the hobby out of it.

Start flame war in three ... two.. one ...

[Lillen]

Nah.

Rivet counting is bullshit.

It is an inconsequential practice indulged by inconsequential people.

If you want to be anal about something that is supposed to be fun, go ahead.

Just leave people who ENJOY the hobby out of it.

Start flame war in three ... two.. one ...

 

Do you like Penn and Teller? 

 

For me, it's No I'm not afraid of rivet counters. But I do not like people of either persuasion saying that your nor "correct" if you don't do what they do. This hobby is to small to have two camps fighting over what is right. Both sides should just enjoy the hobby in a way that they like.

 

When a rivet counter tells me that what I'm doing is stupid it makes me sad. Not for me or the insult. But for the fact that someone can not let other people enjoy aspects of the hobby that they choose to enjoy.

 

Magnus

[GTX765]

No, I am a freelancer and I find the rivet counters annoying. I have no fear, but I am not as engrossed in Model railroading as others. I have other hobbies depending on the season. If you want to count rivets and have a museum grade layout go right ahead. I got into the hobby because my mother threw my train stuff away when I was seven and frankly I was not finished with it yet. I enjoy the forum and the knowledge from members who might be rivet counters. I am more of an operator as my train club calls it. I do like the nicer more realistic rolling stock by intermountain but would rather spend the money on a legendary steam engine than on a $26 tanker car. The reason I say tanker car is I saw these really neat intermountain MCP tanker cars with a corn stalk logo. They wanted $26.50 a car at the LTS. Also on my 40 minute drive home down highway six I saw BNSF engines pulling the exact cars! So maybe I have not detailed and weathered my engines or have a layout that is not a perfect photo quality detailing of the exact part of the United States of my railroads but I am having fun and being a part of the hobby. Do not understand the chicken part of it all but I gave my

[jeffrey-wimberly]

I have a sign on my door that says "NO RIVET COUNTERS ALLOWED BEYOND THIS POINT". This is my layout and I'll run it as I see fit to.

[CNJ831]

Freelancers are afraid of Rivet Counters - and that's why they do it. The post a sign on their layout, "This is My Pike," so no one can criticize them.

I'm not going to tell you who said it, but he is well known and it comes from the book, Learning from the Prototype. (1990) Not to be antagonistic, I think there's some good discussion here.

So is it true? Are ya chicken?  

Untrue, Chip. It is the many hobby dabblers that are in fear, those who live and die by the slogan, "It's my railroad, so I can model any way I like." They are worried about being informed that the quality of their efforts is downright poor and totally inaccurate. Like it or not, there's a very large difference between those who take the hobby more seriously and do quality, authentic, modeling (whether they be prototype or freelancers) and those who are just puttering around but still claim to be model railroaders. Nevertheless, the latter group wants the acceptance of the former and if they can't get it, the quality modelers are labeled "Rivet Counters".

CNJ831 

[wm3798]

I think you may have it the other way around.  As a proto guy (not in the strictest sense, to be sure, but nonetheless...) I get a little envious of guys who throw caution to the wind, and just roll with it.  I believe that pursuing a prototype flavor has its merits, but lately I've been installing decoders for people, so I've had a wide variety of "visiting" power.  I must say, I enjoy running Conrail GP-38's and N&W 2-8-8-2's as much as I enjoy running my WM stuff.

But when it comes to operating session time, I tighten back up, pull anything off the layout that's out of place, and try to adhere to a rigorous schedule of WM trains and their connections.

One important note, don't confuse "free-lancers" with guys who just don't have much experience in the hobby.  Everybody starts somewhere.  Bachmann EZ Track and a grass matte is ground zero for many of us.  As we move forward, and develop our skills and our knowledge, the choice between free-lance and prototype becomes more clearly defined.

Also, those whose development gets stunted at the grass matte stage may not be as advanced as some others, but that doesn't mean they are any less happy, or any less challenged by the hobby.  We all have different goals, and different skills to work on those goals.

Lee 

[SpaceMouse]

Freelancers are afraid of Rivet Counters - and that's why they do it. The post a sign on their layout, "This is My Pike," so no one can criticize them.

I'm not going to tell you who said it, but he is well known and it comes from the book, Learning from the Prototype. (1990) Not to be antagonistic, I think there's some good discussion here.

So is it true? Are ya chicken?  

Untrue, Chip. It is the many hobby dabblers that are in fear, those who live and die by the slogan, "It's my railroad, so I can model any way I like." They are worried about being informed that the quality of their efforts is downright poor and totally inaccurate. Like it or not, there's a very large difference between those who take the hobby more seriously and do quality, authentic, modeling (whether they be prototype or freelancers) and those who are just puttering around but still claim to be model railroaders. Nevertheless, the latter group wants the acceptance of the former and if they can't get it, the quality modelers are labeled "Rivet Counters".

CNJ831 

So, let me rephrase this. It's not a dichotomy between prototype modelers and freelancers as much as it it a chasm between serious modelers and nimrods?

[Fergmiester]

I think it's the other way around. They fear us as they see us having fun and that escapes them. They can run but they can't have FUN!

I Can smell the fear despite the coal fires glowing. 

[Railphotog]

RULE 1 :  This is my railroad.

RULE 2:   While illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices are always welcome, in the event of a visitor-perceived anachronisms, detail dispcrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1 !

 

 

 

[IRONROOSTER]

One of the continuums of the art of model railroading is from impressionist painting to photographer.  We each choose where we want to be, but any place is as equally valid as another.

Enjoy

Paul 

[SpaceMouse]

Lee,

Just for the record, I can enjoy the layouts of John Allen, George Selios,and Malcom Furlow, but I'm not going to build a layout like them. Likewise I can enjoy Pelle, S. (not going to try to spell it) and Jack Burgess, but I'm not going to change the color of the sheets or model the clothes a certain person is wearing in a photo.

I'd like to model something that more on the realistic side of plausible but if I cant find the exact way to marry my knowledge of how the prototype actually worked with my available space, I'll fudge to make it work. But I will give it every effort to make it work.

But I can only model my perception of real life--and those of you that have a lock the limits of what's real and what's not, I salute you--and I think life is hilarious. Therefore, I intend to creates scenes on my layout that both fit the period and strike the funny bone.  

[Dave Vollmer]

The whole argument is flawed.

There are probably only a handful of real rivet counters.  I've met a few in the PRRPro modeling group.  They don't seem mean at all.  But they will spend a year on a single RB50 PRR express refer with no layout to run it on.

Most of us fall somewhere on a spectrum anchored at one end by running whatever strikes our fancy and strictly by prototype on the other end.  There are several myths that need to be dispelled:

Myth:  Rivet counters don't have fun.

Fact:  Rivet counters have as much fun as freelancers, just via different means.

Myth:  Freelancing is more fun than modeling a prototype.

Fact:  It depends on the modeler.  I went from freelancing to prototyping, and I'm now having much more fun!

Myth:  Freelancers freelance because they don't know enough about prototype railroads.

Fact:  There are many reasons to freelance.  Many very knowledgeable people (including people who work for real railroads!) freelance, because no one particular prototype meets their modeling objectives.

Myth:  The natural progression of a modeler is to go from freelancer to prototyper.

Fact:  Modeling style evolves as one's modeling objectives shift, and it's not always in the same direction.

Myth:  Prototype modelers have no respect for freelancers.

Fact:  There may be a bad apple in every barrel, but for the most part modelers are viewed by other modelers by their accomplishments.  I don't think even the most hardcore proto modeler would ever have called out Allen McClelland on his V&O or Bill Darnaby on his Maumee, do you?

Myth:  It's my railroad, I can run what I want, and if you don't like it, leave.

Fact:  We learn from other modelers when we open ourselves up to constructive criticism.  Yes, it's your layout...  but unless you want to be stuck in a rut until the end of time, you'll need to be able to look at your own work with a critical eye.  Often, that requires input from others.

Myth:  You have to take sides in the rivet-counter versus freelancer debate.

Fact:  Since few of us are actually on one of those sides, that's an exercie in futility.

Those are by two (or more) cents...

EDIT:

I belong to several other fora, and one is a pretty advanced modeler's forum.  There I expect and receive critical inspection of my work (not just attaboys).  I have already improved a number of projects from their comments, and am a better modeler for it.

Advancement really does require the occasional "Here's what you could have done better..." 

[CNJ831]

Freelancers are afraid of Rivet Counters - and that's why they do it. The post a sign on their layout, "This is My Pike," so no one can criticize them.

I'm not going to tell you who said it, but he is well known and it comes from the book, Learning from the Prototype. (1990) Not to be antagonistic, I think there's some good discussion here.

So is it true? Are ya chicken?  

Untrue, Chip. It is the many hobby dabblers that are in fear, those who live and die by the slogan, "It's my railroad, so I can model any way I like." They are worried about being informed that the quality of their efforts is downright poor and totally inaccurate. Like it or not, there's a very large difference between those who take the hobby more seriously and do quality, authentic, modeling (whether they be prototype or freelancers) and those who are just puttering around but still claim to be model railroaders. Nevertheless, the latter group wants the acceptance of the former and if they can't get it, the quality modelers are labeled "Rivet Counters".

CNJ831 

So, let me rephrase this. It's not a dichotomy between prototype modelers and freelancers as much as it it a chasm between serious modelers and nimrods?

In a word, yes. In the group I belong to we find no difference in the acceptance of those who are prototype modelers and those who are freelancers. However, they are quality modelers all, so the term Rivet Counter never arises in the group.

On the otherhand, an even greater divide (and snobbishness) than exists between the serious hobbyists and the your "nimrods" divides the "prototype operators" from the train running modelers who, incidentally, make up at least 80% of all hobbyists. Operations can be fun but it is very far from being the be-all, end-all, of the hobby, although you'd never know it to hear some operators speak of it.

CNJ831  

[SpaceMouse]

The whole argument is flawed.

There are probably only a handful of real rivet counters.  I've met a few in the PRRPro modeling group.  They don't seem mean at all.  But they will spend a year on a single RB50 PRR express refer with no layout to run it on.

Most of us fall somewhere on a spectrum anchored at one end by running whatever strikes our fancy and strictly by prototype on the other end.  There are several myths that need to be dispelled:

I know what you said had to be said and your myth/fact but I submit, that the "argument" is not flawed. Fear had nothing to do with reality. You only need the perception that rivet counters are out there waiting to shred your layout and modeling skills.

[SpaceMouse]

In a word, yes. In the group I belong to we find no difference in the acceptance of those who are prototype modelers and those who are freelancers. However, they are quality modelers all, so the term Rivet Counter never arises in the group.

On the otherhand, an even greater divide (and snobbishness) than exists between the serious hobbyists and the your "nimrods" divides the "prototype operators" from the train running modelers who, incidentally, make up at least 80% of all hobbyists. Operations can be fun but it is very far from being the be-all, end-all, of the hobby, although you'd never know it to hear some operators speak of it.

CNJ831  

When it comes right down to it, I figure the perception of snobbishness from any side is larger than the actuality.

My perception is that there are more people who gracefully say "it's not my cup of tea," than criticize another's choices. I also feel that there is also a greater number of modeler's who would give a helping hand to a person with lesser abilities than those who would criticize.

In the end, I figure there are not many operations people who are not modelers at least to a certain extent and nor are there many modelers that are not operators to a certain extent.

Ultimately a person's reaction is a balance or imbalance between confidence their abilities and their insecurities.  

[BlueHillsCPR]

Is there room here for a rivet counting freelanceer who likes just about evything except opera and rap.

[SpaceMouse]

Is there room here for a rivet counting freelanceer who likes just about evything except opera and rap.

Not if you like bagpipe music.

[hminky]

If you were truly having fun with what you are doing, you would be doing that activity, rather than filling bandwidth with crap.

I come to forums for modeling information, ahh, there seems to be less and less.

Harold

[kog1027]

Myth: It's my railroad, I can run what I want, and if you don't like it, leave.

I'm going to rephrase Dave's comment:

" It's my railroad, I'm not likely to change it to suit your tastes , and if you don't like it, feel free to leave. "

I'm doing a "Protolance" layout, taking a real railroad ( The FW&D ) and putting it into a place (Oklahoma ) that it never really got into in a significant way.

So I make an effort to have things be as true to life as I can manage. However, I don't sweat details that are beyond my current skill level / available time to correct.

Mark Gosdin

[SteamFreak]

Is there room here for a rivet counting freelanceer who likes just about evything except opera and rap.

Not if you like bagpipe music.

I live in fear of bagpipes.

[BRAKIE]

Chip,Some of my best friends are "rivet" counters even tho' I been known to put several bad-nay-rotten apples in their place by tearing their pride and joy 110% correct models to pieces strictly by pointing out the flaws in their supposely correct model...Do I enjoy this NO and do so only when enough becomes enough...I much prefer we model our own style in peace and harmony.After all ours is a hobby that can be enjoyed by doing just that and there is no wrong way in what a modeler chooses for his/her modeling style..

Which brings me to what I call the "free wheelers".

These are a happy lot these folk that has no care or worry if a SD70M-2 is pulling their string of 36 foot beer reefers while their 4-6-0 pulls a string of Amtrak passenger cars...Nor do they care if the engine house tracks is being share by that SD70-2 and a 4-4-0..

These kind hearted folk is having to much fun enjoying "their" hobby.

[Hoople]

Well let's see, Rivet Counting is a long, boring, dull, task to do. Teenagers such as myself don't like those three adjectives much. I freelance, I like it. Not scared of Rivet Counters, just not one of them.