Nice job of "stirring the pot", Chip!
The only thing that bothers me about this thread, though, is the tendency to equate prototype modelers with the obnoxious, annoying, and rude "rivet counters". Prototype modelers are a fantastic source of information on prototype practices, which most, if not all freelancers incorporate in their layouts, to one degree or another. "Rivet counters", on the other hand, are the annoying OCD types who feel compelled to point out errors and omissions on one's models, criticize (not constructively!) one's scenery or lack thereof, and generally make nuisances of themselves and thus unwelcome in any gathering of civilized human beings.
We are ALL, after all, "freelancers" to some degree - our distances are foreshortened, our curves are ridiculously sharp, our scenery is more art than reality, and our locomotives, for Pete's sake, run on electricity, even the diesels and steamers! And .... Well, you get the idea.
So, show some tolerance, folks. It's all just "pretend", anyway!
BTW, Chip - I picked up a DVD of "Blazing Saddles" the other day, just to refresh myself on the good folks of Rock Ridge. It's still hilarious, even after all these years!
---
Gary M. Collins gmcrailgNOSPAM@gmail.com
===================================
"Common Sense, Ain't!" -- G. M. Collins
http://fhn.site90.net
Attempts to divide hobbyists causes "negative waves." So, stop it! We can all learn from each other, using whatever information increases our satisfaction. Model railroading is a joy. So, let us enjoy!
Mark
With apologies to Rogers and Hammerstein and anyone who's ever been associated with "Oklahoma".The freelancer and the rivet counter should be friends, Oh, the freelancer and the rivet counter should be friends. One man rans anything he wants, the other likes to annoy him with taunts, But that's no reason why they cain't be friends. Model railroad folks should stick together, Model railroad folks should all be pals. Freelancer dance with rivet counters daughters, Rivet counter dance with the freelancer's gals.......
Andre
pcarrell wrote:As a freelancer I think I can learn a lot from a rivet counter to make my RR more believable.
As a protolancer I couldn't agree more.
I am thankful for the information the "rivet counters" put out on new releases and old models, too. Because of the web-published research of others, I know which prototypes my HOn3 Roundhouse inside frame 2-8-0 comes closest to. And I can choose how I'm going to modify the kit as I build it for my free-lance Port Orford & Elk River.
I have many similar examples of how "rivet counters" have helped me, even though I don't model their prototype, and have chosen not to use P87 standards. If their criticism of my poor paint jobs is a bit abrasive, well - my paint job didn't come to their standards. I will do better the next time.
I have to ask which is worse - abrasive criticism from a rivet counter, or a dabbler (to use CNJ's term, free-lancer isn't the right term) who asks for input but rejects all suggestions that don't align with his pre-conceived answers?
Obviously, I lean towards the rivet-counting camp, even though my modeling skills fall far short of their standards, and I much prefer plausible free-lancing to prototype modeling. Maybe someday my models and layout can compete, but until then, I'm still having fun.
Fred W
...and the corollary to that is that we should not assume that, in turn, we need to teach the rivet counter how to breath and have fun. That is arrogance and egocentrism.
Let us each have our fun in our own way, and in a collegial manner seek information and advice from each other. Once again, don't expect the rivet counter (I am really beginning to loath that term...) to necessarily seek out those who are not rivet counters for approval or information. It's not their nature. They don't want anything except some technical how-to now and then, and they probably don't feel they are likely to get it from all those sharp-pointed "lancers" out there.
..of which I am one.
selector wrote: ...and the corollary to that is that we should not assume that, in turn, we need to teach the rivet counter how to breath and have fun. That is arrogance and egocentrism. Let us each have our fun in our own way, and in a collegial manner seek information and advice from each other. Once again, don't expect the rivet counter (I am really beginning to loath that term...) to necessarily seek out those who are not rivet counters for approval or information. It's not their nature. They don't want anything except some technical how-to now and then, and they probably don't feel they are likely to get it from all those sharp-pointed "lancers" out there...of which I am one.
I'm not thrilled with the term "rivet counter" either. Perhaps we should adopt something a little more complementary, like Prototype Modeler. Given the huge contribution that these folks make, I think they deserve a little more respect than rivet counter connotes.
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
Haven't read all the posts in here yet, but I'll volunteer my thoughts (and definition of a 'rivet counter'):
rivet-counter (n.):
Having stirred the pot a little, I will say that I do not fear rivet-counters (for me, when starting (back) in this hobby, I saw a lot less reason for rivet-counting than I do now). But then again, the rivet-counters might be the ones running the websites I frequent - to find out if a certain model of locomotive is (approximately) appropriate for the time era in which my RR is set. I just find it more enjoyable to aim for a certain approximate level of realism than for perfection. Besides, I don't have the budget to buy only those structures, locomotives, etc. (kits or RTR) which are exact models of a prototype. And since I'm modeling my own (fictional) RR, there are no prototypes for what I want - therefore, I only need a reasonable level.
I figure as my skills and knowledge get better over time, I might get closer to a rivet-counter's level, but I don't intend to become perfectionist about it (a la twhite/Tom's description). Oh, yes, I do like Baroque music, among other kinds...).
My . YMMV (Your mileage may vary)
Jim in Cape Girardeau
I've been reading these forums for years as a "lurker" but one statement here has prompted me to post for the first time.
Are we all so insecure in our hobby that they only way to elevate our own Modeling egos is to bring down others?
The above quote, IMO, is just not really a big problem in model railroading from what I have seen and read and experienced. It is, however, an almost perfect description of amateur radio. And they do it with such venom, anger, and personal insults it boggles the mind. Which is why I no longer have an amateur radio license.
In comparison, the "rivet-counters vs. freelancers" arguments here are downright friendly and civil, and the so-called divide is largely non-existent. Consider yourselves fortunate that model railroading has such minor divisions compared to some other hobbies.
shayfan84325 wrote:I'm not thrilled with the term "rivet counter" either. Perhaps we should adopt something a little more complementary, like Prototype Modeler. Given the huge contribution that these folks make, I think they deserve a little more respect than rivet counter connotes.
In an earlier post in this thread, I differentiate between prototype modelers and rivet counters. Most prototype modelers want to accurately model their choice of prototypes within reason while at the same time accepting the fact that limitations of space force some sort of compromises, such as selective compression. It is pure folly to think we can model any prototype 100% accurately. On the other hand, as then name implies, rivet counters obsessed with the minutia of modeling. If someone truly is bothered by the fact that a piece of equipment has one too many or one too few rivets, they are WWWAAAYYY too obsessed with accuracy. Prototype modeling is a very worthwhile pursuit and there is nothing wrong with reasonably pursuing accuracy in modeling. On the other hand, rivet counters have taken that pursuit to the level of obnoxious obsession. The term rivet counter isn't intended to be complimentary.
jecorbett wrote: If someone truly is bothered by the fact that a piece of equipment has one too many or one too few rivets, they are WWWAAAYYY too obsessed with accuracy.
If someone truly is bothered by the fact that a piece of equipment has one too many or one too few rivets, they are WWWAAAYYY too obsessed with accuracy.
That's a pretty judgemental statement. Who gets to decide what is or is not too obsessed? You? Me? Or each individual? I vote for choice number 3.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Dave Vollmer wrote: jecorbett wrote: If someone truly is bothered by the fact that a piece of equipment has one too many or one too few rivets, they are WWWAAAYYY too obsessed with accuracy.That's a pretty judgemental statement. Who gets to decide what is or is not too obsessed? You? Me? Or each individual? I vote for choice number 3.
My father-in-law was so obsessed that he measured intermediary chemical reactions in real time to 10e-15 seconds. (.000000000000000001 seconds). He didn't get the Nobel in chemistry because he died. His partner did in 2004.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
Thanks for dropping in, Ed. Great first post. I agree, and that was the David to whom I referred much earlier when I replied.
-Crandell
jecorbett wrote:Prototype modeling is a very worthwhile pursuit and there is nothing wrong with reasonably pursuing accuracy in modeling. On the other hand, rivet counters have taken that pursuit to the level of obnoxious obsession. The term rivet counter isn't intended to be complimentary.
My guess is that nearly all model railroaders have some level of fascination with prototypes and we all appreciate accuracy to one degree or another, so where do we draw the line that separates prototype modelers from rivet counters?
Also, why do we need a non-complementary term to describe our fellow modelers? I think we all contribute to the greater good of the hobby - with a few exceptions (forums trolls, etc.)
Finally, there can be fascinating stuff in the minutia. Our detail-oriented fellows collect that information and they'll share it with us if we're willing to listen. They'll also tell us how we can make our models better. The diversity of levels of interest makes our hobby richer.
shayfan84325 wrote: Finally, there can be fascinating stuff in the minutia. Our detail-oriented fellows collect that information and they'll share it with us if we're willing to listen. They'll also tell us how we can make our models better. The diversity of levels of interest makes our hobby richer.
I blame it on the blankity-blank digital cameras. Until they came along, I only cared about what I could see.
Boy is that ever true! Being able to scrutinize your work with a close up photo almost instantaneously (I have to trudge down 2 flights of steps to upload my camera!) has been both a blessing and a curse. Work that looks perfectly acceptable while standing there in the layout room suddently looks terrible! But there's also a lot of shots I've taken that leave me very pleasantly surprised.
It's one of the reasons I'm not looking forward to hi-def TV... I'll be able to see what my favorite starlets REALLY look like!
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
Yeah...
I think the rush to code 55 in N scale has something to do with the eyeball vs digital camera issue. My code 80 track looks fine in person. But in a digital photograph, each rail looks like the Great Wall of China...
wm3798 wrote: ...It's one of the reasons I'm not looking forward to hi-def TV... I'll be able to see what my favorite starlets REALLY look like! Lee
...It's one of the reasons I'm not looking forward to hi-def TV... I'll be able to see what my favorite starlets REALLY look like!
Just like when you see them in person, there's lots of spackle, Lee. It doesn't look bad, except you can see the spackle a bit better. It's an improvement if anything.
But, to get back to the D'Oh!'s in our digital images, I find that what gets me are the tiny spider silk segments. They're in my trees, on the pilots of my steamers, between cross-arms on my utility poles. My Niagara came through my longest tunnel once and I took a shot of it coming out the portal. Only when I got back to the computer did I notice a wide swath of spider web wraped around one side of the pilot. Strangely, when I went back to look, there it was!
I've been following the thread since the first post.It's kinda nice it HASN"T turned into a flamer.
Personally, I think the guy that takes a kit or RTR car , shaves off the molded on grabs and adds the correct wire grabs( or whatever) is a MRR. I also think that kind of prototypical accuracy is neat.It's just not ME.
If, on the other hand, that same guy came to my house to operate MY trains and mentioned that the cars I run for my era are not accurate( which I already know)that would peeve me
Maybe not "rivet counters". Maybe "nit-pickers".I wouldn't do it to them, don't do it to me.
We're here to run TRAINS!
Terry, modeling the BN on ex-C&NW ROW.(Protolancer?)
Terry in NW Wisconsin
Queenbogey715 is my Youtube channel
I think this topic hasnt flamed because we all seam to agree that there is a big difference between the Proto Modeler, and the Rivet Counter.
Where the Proto Modeler may not offer an opinion unless asked, where the Rivet Counter will make comments whether asked or not. The Proto Modeler if asked for an opinion will then offer helpfull advice, offer to show you his work and how or where to find ways to improve your work, whee the Rivet Counter, just negatively gripes about the work in question, offers no aid, and most of the time refuses to show their own work.
Positive attitude vs Negative attitude.
I'm sure that the same type of polarity exists in freelancing as well, its just much less documented.
Have fun with your trains
I've been following this since my original post, comparing Rivet Counters to Baroque Musicologists and Freelancers to Romantic Musicians, and gang, let me just say that I was having a bad day at the 'office' when I wrote it, okay?
Lesson one: NEVER contribute to a post like this when you're in a really FOUL mood, and I was. So, apologies to all--especially you people who posted that you LIKE Baroque music (believe it or not, so do I, just not to play it).
Okay, let me try and even this out. I'm like a lot of you, a "Proto-lancer", in which I take a prototypical railroad and set it where it probably never ran. BUT, I'm a 'rivet counter' in the fact that I attempt to duplicate the motive power of that particular railroad within the time-frame that I model. Which means doing a lot of outside research to make sure I get the class and number of my particular locomotive models correct, and making sure that my rolling stock and accessories also fit within that particular time period (in my case, 1939-52).
I'm a Freelancer in the particular geographic setting of my railroad, and also in using a certain class of locomotive that my primary railroad never owned, however I have created a plausible 'history' for that particular locomotive, since the railroad I model actually LEASED these locomotives during WWII. Okay, I'm happy. I just had my prototype go to Baldwin and get copies before the War Board froze the design in the early 'forties. Which, I hope, helps to explain my particular well-known passion for these locomotives.
So, I'm a bit of both. And I enjoy the heck out of it, and to BOTH the Freelancers and the Prototype modelers, I say GO FOR IT!
Oh, and BTW, apologies to anyone my original, ill-thought hot-headed approached post offended. Bach is very COOL, just don't ask me to play it on a Steinway, LOL!
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Tom,
I once took a class because I walked in on the professor playing Bach's Fugue in G minor on a massive pipe organ.
Steinway wouldn't cut it.
SpaceMouse wrote:Tom, I once took a class because I walked in on the professor playing Bach's Fugue in G minor on a massive pipe organ. Steinway wouldn't cut it.
Actually the organs were not that large during Bach's time and most of the time he played either the pedal harpsicord or the lute for church services.......
I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist!!! (I do play Bach on the Classical Guitar, BTW.)
Tom, I have already insisted to both my son's that at my funeral, the prelude will be Prelude and fugue in d minor by J. S. Bach, and for the other end of the service the Tocatta from the Organ Symphony by Widor! None of that wussy crap with everybody crying (because the music was so bad....).
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
twhite wrote: I've been following this since my original post, comparing Rivet Counters to Baroque Musicologists and Freelancers to Romantic Musicians, and gang, let me just say that I was having a bad day at the 'office' when I wrote it, okay? Lesson one: NEVER contribute to a post like this when you're in a really FOUL mood, and I was. So, apologies to all--especially you people who posted that you LIKE Baroque music (believe it or not, so do I, just not to play it). Okay, let me try and even this out. I'm like a lot of you, a "Proto-lancer", in which I take a prototypical railroad and set it where it probably never ran. BUT, I'm a 'rivet counter' in the fact that I attempt to duplicate the motive power of that particular railroad within the time-frame that I model. Which means doing a lot of outside research to make sure I get the class and number of my particular locomotive models correct, and making sure that my rolling stock and accessories also fit within that particular time period (in my case, 1939-52). I'm a Freelancer in the particular geographic setting of my railroad, and also in using a certain class of locomotive that my primary railroad never owned, however I have created a plausible 'history' for that particular locomotive, since the railroad I model actually LEASED these locomotives during WWII. Okay, I'm happy. I just had my prototype go to Baldwin and get copies before the War Board froze the design in the early 'forties. Which, I hope, helps to explain my particular well-known passion for these locomotives. So, I'm a bit of both. And I enjoy the heck out of it, and to BOTH the Freelancers and the Prototype modelers, I say GO FOR IT! Oh, and BTW, apologies to anyone my original, ill-thought hot-headed approached post offended. Bach is very COOL, just don't ask me to play it on a Steinway, LOL!Tom
There is no reason to apologize. I'm like you. I wonder: do you also find it difficult to find your pant size because it is so popular?
No one is saying rivet counters shouldn't be allowed to obsess over such details on their own layouts. As long as they keep their obsessions to themselves no one would mind. It is when they expect the rest of the modeling world to share those obsessions they generate disdain. I'm sure the term rivet counter was born to describe those who felt compelled to point out the minor inaccurate details in other people's models and I doubt the term was ever intended to be complimentary. Being a lone wolf freelancer, I've fortunately never had the occassion to personally come across such a person. I have seen another form of rivet counter on this board. That is the person who posts a thread complaining about some minor inaccuracy in a recently released loco. I've read a number of such whines. As if the manufacturers are suppose to tailor every single offering to a specific prototype. Tooling is expensive and in order to make a profit on anything except the highest end offerings, the manufacturers have to be able to sell their product to as wide a market as possible which means the same engine has to be offered in multiple road names. At one time, almost all mid ranged equipment was sold that way, the only difference being the paint scheme. Recently, some manufacturers have done some customizing through interchangeable details. For example, I recently bought some Athearn RS-3s, one in NYC colors and the other in Rio Grande. The latter will be repainted for my freelanced road. There are minor differences in the roof details. This approach seems to me to be a reasonable compromise but it is not good enough for some rivet counters. If these people are that obsessed with such minor detail differences, they should expect to do the customizing themselves and quit coming on this board to whine about it. Most of us simply don't care either about the details or the rivet counter's obsession.
Question:
How often do you folks get completely unsolicitied criticism about inaccuracy? I don't mean when you ask "how does this look..." I mean, how often do people drop by your layouts and start pointing out what's wrong?
Or when you post a photo and make it clear you don't want feedback, but someone comes in and counts your rivets anyway?
I bet it deosn't happen that often. There are a few personalities here that will do that, but most of you seem to have tuned them out anyway.
This perception that there are hoardes of rivet counters waiting in the wings to strike the innocent without invitation or provocation is ridiculous.
Very few people really care whether you do your stuff right, unless you ask. When you ask, you may hear something you don't want to hear...
The difference is I take that information onboard. I may not act on it, but now I know I should have done more research. That means I'll do better next time.
I think it all boils down to the approach taken by the so-called keeper of the fastener inventory.
When I was much younger, I was mentored by a couple of guys who gently made me aware of things I could do better... "Oh, are you sure Conrail had a high-hood GP-38?" and "Let me check to see if that's the right road number for that..." These guys were no doubt very knowledgeable about the prototype, and were willing to share that knowledge with a pimply faced kid who clearly had no idea what he was doing. At times I was disappointed that I would have to repaint something, but I never felt insulted.
If anything, the encouragement I got from these guys made me look more carefully at my work, and challenge myself to do better. They were also more than happy to answer my sometimes inane questions, and I always found their suggestions helpful.
I participate in another forum where there are some beginners, and some "returners" who are clearly trying to find their feet in the hobby. One fellow in particular is enthusiasticly working on an N scale layout, and he's challenged himself to scratch build just about everything. Some thing have turned out really well, and some things, well, let's just say he's really enthusiastic!
Anyway, after fearlessly posting this shot in his progress blog, I wrote up a brief article covering what little I know about railroad bridges, and included some prototype photos I've taken over the years. I tried to be positive about his efforts, and offer what I could to help him look more critically at his own work. Several other posters also chimed in with helpful suggestions as well. As a result, in last week's update, he posted this image of a much improved model...
It would have been really easy to just break out the flame thrower and demean the guy's early work, but it doesn't cost you any extra to try to be nice. And incidentally, the modeler never asked for criticism. He did however, express his appreciation to those who helped him... so it's really a two way street, isn't it?
If someone offers you a suggestion, how do you react? Does that make the situation better, or worse?
Actually, the fact that with the exception of a very few people here, like less than one hand's worth, I find modelers to be both humble and helpful.
But I do get unsolicited feedback. Recently, I posted my diorama of an abandoned coal mine that had a rusted-out hopper with the front truck missing. One poster took it upon himself to tell me that hoppers in service would not be that rusted, that the services marks had to be seen, and I should spend more time studying the prototype.
But for the most part people are supportive.
So much so that when I read the post that makes up the title, "Freelancers are afraid of rivet counters," I thought it was so absurd that I thought it merited discussion. It seems it has. I'm convinced that the author thought he was stating a fact, as if it were a primary motivation for people to become freelancers.
jecorbett,About folks complaining about models with manufacturer inaccuracies...
You seem to be missing the point that we're paying money for these models from a manufacturer. Some of us want accuracy for our dollars, and when we don't get it, we complain in the hope that the next run will be improved. We have every right to complain about something we're paying money for. A wise company listens to these complaints, and if merited (and if possible), changes the product for the better. To be perfectly clear, I'm not talking about such things as expecting P1K to put Hancock Air Whistles on New Haven RDC's (a NH exclusive), or expecting P2K to put the extra water tanks on a NH GP9 (another NH exclusive). However, having tall stacks on P1K RS-11's, tapered stacks on Atlas RS-3's, and wrong stack locations on TLT C-Liners are things that should have been corrected before they left the factory.
BTW, you obviously do care about the details or the rivet counter's obsession. If you didn't, you wouldn't have posted a couple times here on the subject.
Dave V.,I can't remember the last time anyone ever gave me unsolicited criticism about my modeling...probably because it's never happened. In every case, I have invited the criticism by simply showing my model to someone and asking "What do you think?" Then they tell me.
The way some people carry on around here, one would think that "rivet counters" are breaking into people's homes and leaving nasty-grams about one's modeling. The actual number of times that one actually gets unsolicited criticism is probably on the order between slim and none.
SpaceMouse,IMHO, if you post a picture of your modeling on a public discussion forum, you are asking for folks to make comments unless you specifically ask folks not to. If you don't want comments about your work (wrong or right), don't post it in a public discussion forum.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************