Paul3 wrote: Ah, CN M420's I presume? I managed to pick up an old Overland model of one of these custom painted in CN because I worked on a pair of them back in 1999 for a tourist line. The only thing is that I have to renumber it from 2500 to 3500 (IIRC) so it matches what I worked on...before they painted it. The model is a real coffee grinder.
Yup. Exactly the ones he was referring to.
NevinW wrote: Now that is a good modeler!
...or a complete maniac...oh wait, its about Cliff Grandt...yeah, great modeler (and maniac - modeling wise, jealous jealous we iz)
Have fun with your trains
Shayfan, thanks for that nice story. I feel the same way largely.
-Crandell
trainnut1250 wrote: Paul3 wrote: IMHO, this whole "rivet counter" label is wrong. The discussion should be about rude people, not whether they are counting rivets or not. I have seen rude people at train shows and in my club...and it had nothing to do with prototypical accuracy.Here I am agreeing with Paul yet again....Must be the moon. The idea that people who strive for prototypical accuracy are also rude seems to be taken as the de facto definition of a "rivet counter". Many will say "yeah, but the guy who told me my loco was a piece of junk and should be burned was rivet counter". Yes, maybe he was, but in the First place he was rude .....I think they are separate issues. Most of the proto guys I know are not rude.....
Paul3 wrote: IMHO, this whole "rivet counter" label is wrong. The discussion should be about rude people, not whether they are counting rivets or not. I have seen rude people at train shows and in my club...and it had nothing to do with prototypical accuracy.
IMHO, this whole "rivet counter" label is wrong. The discussion should be about rude people, not whether they are counting rivets or not. I have seen rude people at train shows and in my club...and it had nothing to do with prototypical accuracy.
Here I am agreeing with Paul yet again....Must be the moon. The idea that people who strive for prototypical accuracy are also rude seems to be taken as the de facto definition of a "rivet counter". Many will say "yeah, but the guy who told me my loco was a piece of junk and should be burned was rivet counter". Yes, maybe he was, but in the First place he was rude .....I think they are separate issues. Most of the proto guys I know are not rude.....
I'll jump on the band wagon, too. There is that old axiom of courtesy that goes "If you can't say something nice, say nothing at all." I think it applies in nearly every case, and it always applies in public - even these forums.
On those occasions in which feedback is called for, if there is something negative to say it should be communicated in private (use a PM?). It is also good to ask the person "How do you feel about it?" before offering your own critical views. Often they'll say just what you would have said, so you don't have to offer your critical perspective; you can go right to offering advice for improving it.
I read once about how John Allen gave feedback to Cliff Grandt: Grandt had completed a scratch built brass Heisler and was showing it to John Allen. Allen took a photo and printed a large copy. He gave it to Cliff Grandt and said "Look at the picture, every time you see something that shows that it's a model and not the prototype there may be a way to improve it." I understand that led to significant rework and a better looking model (I saw a picture of the reworked loco - it is really nice).
What I like about this story is it was a case of one modeler sharing a self-evaluation method with another modeler. John Allen never said anything to even politely diminish Cliff Grandt's work. There were never strained feelings. I think it's another example of what a great role model John Allen was.
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
Of course, it wouldn't make much of a discussion if it was freelancers vs Rude people (then again, maybe on an online forum....)
I believe the term came about (feel free to fill the correct dates, loco etc...) from an advertising campain in the thirties?? when Lionel released a loco and claimed it was totally prototypically accurate down to the rivets on the tender. Some one actually counted them and Lionel was embarassed to find they were short by a few when compared to the prototype. Maybe the person who pointed this out was also rude????
My two cents,
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Brakie,Who made us judges? C'mon...everyone judges everything they have an interest in. When I look at any model railroad item, I'll think to myself "That looks good," or "That looks bad." The difference between nice and rude is whether you voice that mental judgement (in a bad way).
As for your "slob" fellow club member...hey, he's entitled to his opinion as long as he pays his dues. The second you donate something to a club, a club member now owns a share of it. For example, at my club we have 60 members. If a guy donates a structure to the club, I now own 1/60th of it. Since I do, I have every right to question it's quality. You don't have to listen or agree with him, but that's the "price" of belonging to a club. Consider the source, and move on.
Trynn_Allen2,Public displays invite comments, both good and bad. While the person making the comments may not pay dues, they probably did pay admission (I know our club's major fund raiser is our train shows). If you invite the public to come see your layout (and especially you make them pay money to see it), you have to expect to get some comments. You cannot silence the public any more than you can stop the tide from coming in. Quite frankly, if you don't want any comments from the public, don't display it to the public in the first place.
SpaceMouse,IMHO, if you post pictures of your work on a discussion forum, you are asking for feedback unless you specifically ask folks not to comment. The point of any discussion forum is to discuss topics of the day. If you create a topic, you will get comments. It's that simple. No one is exempt except the moderators...they can post something then lock it so no one can comment.
RicHamilton,Ah, CN M420's I presume? I managed to pick up an old Overland model of one of these custom painted in CN because I worked on a pair of them back in 1999 for a tourist line. The only thing is that I have to renumber it from 2500 to 3500 (IIRC) so it matches what I worked on...before they painted it. The model is a real coffee grinder.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Dallas Model Works wrote: vsmith wrote: ho modern modeler wrote: .......RIVET........RIVET..............RIVET.............RIVET............Thats only four, your missing one...LOL!But shouldn't that be: That's only four; you're missing one...?
vsmith wrote: ho modern modeler wrote: .......RIVET........RIVET..............RIVET.............RIVET............Thats only four, your missing one...
ho modern modeler wrote: .......RIVET........RIVET..............RIVET.............RIVET............
.......RIVET........RIVET..............RIVET.............RIVET............
Thats only four, your missing one...
LOL!
But shouldn't that be: That's only four; you're missing one...?
I have a more correct responce back at home, but I won't show it to you.
dehusman wrote: Congratulations. Foobies win.Dave H.
Congratulations. Foobies win.
Dave H.
Dave,
I agree with your post previous to this one. Especially in N scale we often have to accept the 90% solution. Like my kitbashed PRR steam. They may not past muster with the strictest of the PRRPro guys, but for most Pennsy fans, they look close enough that the compromises are acceptable within the constraints of the available materials.
The trouble with foobies is that the first 90% is easy... For a boxcar, for example, you can change grab irons for an end ladder, lower the bolsters, change the door, repaint, decal, etc...
...but getting that last 10% out of it is the tough part. Say there's one too few rivet lines on each side of the car. Like you said, that makes it harder to letter the car. But, is it really worth it to attempt to re-rivet the car? Some may say yes. But most of us would file the discrepency away in the back of our brains and move on with a 90% car.
I have some >95% cars and locos on my layout, but I also am OK with the 80-90% cars and locos, because getting those last few percent of accuracy out of them would be more work than fun.
Oh, yeah... fun!
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Craig
DMW
Mine doesn't move.......it's at the station!!!
Ironically a post on another thread brings up why rivet counting can matter it you do your own detailing and lettering of cars. The thread was on typical prototype cars. One common car was similar to a Pennsy X29 and models of Pennsy X29's are easily available. Does it matter that the car they wanted to model really isn't an X29, its actually a variant of an ARA design (the X29 is the PRR's interpretation of the same design) and really is closer to a NYC or RDG variation than the PRR version? Not unless you try and do the lettering based on a prototype photo and then use the rivets to judge where the lettering goes. Then you'll find out that the rivet pattern on the two types of cars is different (as are numerous other construction details, most of which would never be seen.)
Doesn't make enough of a difference where I wouldn't use a X29 model to for an ARA car? In my book not really. I even helped provide material to one of the manufacturers to letter a "X29" for my favorite road (which owned the ARA designed cars.)
But there have been numerous times when lettering cars I have had to fudge the lettering because the prototype and the model were different (the herald is in the center panel, hey, wait a minute, the model has an even number of panels!) It also can make a difference in which number you pick for the car. My road had 3 variations for the "X29" car, one had flat ends, one had narrow ribbed ends ("Murphy" end) and one had flat ends but was about a foot taller than the X29. So knowing which is which helps me get a more correct number on the car. But if the difference in accuracy is the difference between numbering the car 100123 (flat), 101123 (ribbed) or 102123 (tall) I think that its minimal trouble on my part to get a better number on the car. Of course the best option is to get the manufacturer to put the better number on the car at the factory, then everybody wins.
twhite wrote:Not to get off track again, but: (ever try to hold a Steinway close to your body?)! Tom
Not to get off track again, but:
(ever try to hold a Steinway close to your body?)!
Tom
The grande piano used to have straight sides you know. That was before all those big fat sopranos kept leaning on it..... (Victor Borge) I've always been fond of the goucho legend for the invention of the guitar....
Back on track... I have done my best to cultivate the friendship of several Prototype Modelers in the area even though I do Freelance. They have all been a valuable resource to me as i hjave learned about the hobby. And, there have been very few "Rivit Counters" that have bugged me over the years. It may be the "look" I have cultivated during 32 years as a teacher. When I run into it here or at the other forum, I take what they have to say, put it in the old noggin' for possible use later. And then I just let it ride....... Most often I don't give a reply, when I do it is just a simple statement of why I chose to do something the way I did. Then I move on.
To each their own (said the maid as she kissed the cow..).
Ray Seneca Lake, Ontario, and Western R.R. (S.L.O.&W.) in HO
We'll get there sooner or later!
I find it interesting that guitar was mentioned here, but it brings up a good comparison. I play guitar, and one of my major influences is Steve Vai. However, i do not need to play as well as Vai to enjoy my guitar as much as he enjoys his. If a friend, passer by, or casual listener has comments or criticism of my music, i will happily entertain them. Most of the time, what they have to say dosent carry much value, at least not to me. This dosent mean i take any offense (usually) but simply that what they suggest dosent help me. Then, once in a while, someone will give me a bit of advice or perhaps a suggestion as to how i might better my playing, that actually works for me and helps me to improve.
Model railroading is, to me, a lot like that. As i embark on the construction of a prototypical...more or less...roster for my B&O layout, i am entering an area in which i have little experience. If, upon completion, someone offers suggestions on how a part may be made differently, a different technique for soldering, etc, i will be only to happy to accept, and probably try, their advice. If their comment is that my EL-3's smokebox door has the incorrect number of bolts....well, they are welcome to go build their own. If they want to suggest HOW i might make the next one with the correct number of bolts, thanks much!
I want my engines and cars to resemble my prototype. I dont expect perfection from myself or anyone else. I just want to run B&O trains. Im not sure where this leaves me? For example, i have no rib-side 3 bay hoppers, B&O didnt have any, so i dont want any either. I redecorate Roundhouse offset side 3 bays to resemble B&Os cars. Whether or not they are exact is of little consequence to me, an offset side 3 bay is close enough. Freelance? or Prototypical? I dunno, they look fine to me.
Ray--if you play Bach on classical guitar, you're more than welcome in my house--I could listen to Bach on classical guitar all day. Come to think of it, I could listen to almost ANYTHING on classical guitar all day, LOL! Just love that instrument, it's really personal (ever try to hold a Steinway close to your body?)!
MarkPierce--Yah, I DO have trouble finding my size pants, LOL! That's why I'm on a diet, because the racks in my town are just FULL of 34 waists waiting for someone to come by and buy them. Must be the Valley air, it makes us prone to getting sedentary, I guess.
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
I think it all depends on who's rivets you are counting.
Feel free to count your own. Leave mine out of it!
vsmith wrote: I think this topic hasnt flamed because we all seam to agree that there is a big difference between the Proto Modeler, and the Rivet Counter.
Aye, and there is the rub. The term River Counter has been used interchangably on this forum with Prototype Modeller ad nauseum. That is what gets my hackles to rise being a prototype modeller. It is even happening in this thread to some extent. Problem is, rivet counters may not be all that knowledgabe.
I was a a hobby show one day and this gentleman came up and was looking at one of my engines and told me my number was wrong on the engine I had just completed (it wasn't). He swore up and down that CN engines in the 2500 series were not those as he used to be a hogger. He was both right and wrong. The 2500's he remembered had long been retired and a new batch of locos from GE had assumed the numbers. I just let him go thinking he was right as I didn't have photograph to prove my modelling.
Paul3 wrote:SpaceMouse,IMHO, if you post a picture of your modeling on a public discussion forum, you are asking for folks to make comments unless you specifically ask folks not to. If you don't want comments about your work (wrong or right), don't post it in a public discussion forum. Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
The question asked was if we had gotten unsolicited criticism. If you definition of posting means that you are soliciting criticism I was in error. If you can post and not ask for criticism, then it was unsolicited.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
Dave Vollmer wrote: Question:How often do you folks get completely unsolicitied criticism about inaccuracy? I don't mean when you ask "how does this look..." I mean, how often do people drop by your layouts and start pointing out what's wrong?Or when you post a photo and make it clear you don't want feedback, but someone comes in and counts your rivets anyway?I bet it deosn't happen that often. There are a few personalities here that will do that, but most of you seem to have tuned them out anyway.This perception that there are hoardes of rivet counters waiting in the wings to strike the innocent without invitation or provocation is ridiculous.Very few people really care whether you do your stuff right, unless you ask. When you ask, you may hear something you don't want to hear...The difference is I take that information onboard. I may not act on it, but now I know I should have done more research. That means I'll do better next time.
Question:
How often do you folks get completely unsolicitied criticism about inaccuracy? I don't mean when you ask "how does this look..." I mean, how often do people drop by your layouts and start pointing out what's wrong?
Or when you post a photo and make it clear you don't want feedback, but someone comes in and counts your rivets anyway?
I bet it deosn't happen that often. There are a few personalities here that will do that, but most of you seem to have tuned them out anyway.
This perception that there are hoardes of rivet counters waiting in the wings to strike the innocent without invitation or provocation is ridiculous.
Very few people really care whether you do your stuff right, unless you ask. When you ask, you may hear something you don't want to hear...
The difference is I take that information onboard. I may not act on it, but now I know I should have done more research. That means I'll do better next time.
I don't think it's "hordes" but after spending say 60 hours on a coke retort (which was modeled from several different coke retorts) and then another 10 to 20 hours detailing it. I got complaints and compliments alike. All unsolicited.
I agree that home layouts tend to be less commented on, though I have gotten them, but club layouts tend to be "fair game" for others. It doesn't matter if it's at permenat display or at a show. The rude ones are rarely the unwashed masses, but instead MRers that think they know best and that their critiques are welcomed no matter if asked for or not. Nor do I believe that just because you set up means that it can be critized. If you aren't a member of the club you really don't have much say in it, and that all your critizism is going to do is a.) water off a ducks back or b.) my targeting you with mental 15"/52 calibre cannons and my general distain to answer questions, or notice you further. About the only people I want the model/layout/module to commented on are those that I ask, or those that have built similar specific structures.
At Madison this year, there was a great example of this, I had seen an example of this gentlemans work in Milwaukee at Trainfest and had complimented him on it and asked what his plans for it were. Had my father not been standing there with eyes starting to glaze over he and I could have chatted for an hour at least. I asked if I could take pictures for inspiration and that was granted. At Madison he found our set up and was looking over my take on the same structure. Compliments were exchanged and we started talking. He pointed out something that I thought was trivial (I don't have the space to model it) and I explained my reasons for not modeling it and pointed out that original purpose of the structure was not for Coke so much as the coal that was produced. We both agreed that selective scope and room to model can have an overriding influence on HOW we model things. Yet a person standing close to us commented that the gas was rarely the sole intent of the retort and that I was modeling it wrong for this reason. As the original person left the interloper continued to badger me, so going so far as to follow me around the layout as I kept and eye on my train and tried to answer other questions. Yes it turns out this gentleman was a MR, yes the gentleman had a habit of doing just what he did to me to others, but as another club member put it, he wasn't that great of a modeler and the only reason he was tolerated in other clubs was that he could wire in his sleep. Either way after 5 minutes of this, it's draining and skews the rest of the days intercourse.
Rudeness happens. Some people either have thicker skins or seem to be a magnet for attracting it. Perhaps there is a manner in our posture that seems to say, "tell me what you think." When in fact it should be take as, "I am happy running trains." Perhaps this is where the precieved hordes come from.
twhite wrote: Okay, let me try and even this out. I'm like a lot of you, a "Proto-lancer", in which I take a prototypical railroad and set it where it probably never ran. BUT, I'm a 'rivet counter' in the fact that I attempt to duplicate the motive power of that particular railroad within the time-frame that I model. Which means doing a lot of outside research to make sure I get the class and number of my particular locomotive models correct, and making sure that my rolling stock and accessories also fit within that particular time period (in my case, 1939-52). I'm a Freelancer in the particular geographic setting of my railroad, and also in using a certain class of locomotive that my primary railroad never owned, however I have created a plausible 'history' for that particular locomotive, since the railroad I model actually LEASED these locomotives during WWII. Okay, I'm happy. I just had my prototype go to Baldwin and get copies before the War Board froze the design in the early 'forties. Which, I hope, helps to explain my particular well-known passion for these locomotives. So, I'm a bit of both. And I enjoy the heck out of it, and to BOTH the Freelancers and the Prototype modelers, I say GO FOR IT! Tom
Okay, let me try and even this out. I'm like a lot of you, a "Proto-lancer", in which I take a prototypical railroad and set it where it probably never ran. BUT, I'm a 'rivet counter' in the fact that I attempt to duplicate the motive power of that particular railroad within the time-frame that I model. Which means doing a lot of outside research to make sure I get the class and number of my particular locomotive models correct, and making sure that my rolling stock and accessories also fit within that particular time period (in my case, 1939-52).
I'm a Freelancer in the particular geographic setting of my railroad, and also in using a certain class of locomotive that my primary railroad never owned, however I have created a plausible 'history' for that particular locomotive, since the railroad I model actually LEASED these locomotives during WWII. Okay, I'm happy. I just had my prototype go to Baldwin and get copies before the War Board froze the design in the early 'forties. Which, I hope, helps to explain my particular well-known passion for these locomotives.
So, I'm a bit of both. And I enjoy the heck out of it, and to BOTH the Freelancers and the Prototype modelers, I say GO FOR IT!
That is another thing I have noticed about proto-lancers is that the proto-lancing works both ways either Corporate or Geographic. Several other members of my train club are geographic protolancers, ie they like the geogrpahy, but maybe not the railroad that served it. Case in point. The Portage & North Woods RR. I like the route that the Soo Line/Wisc Central took between Portage and Plover, I like the geography, yet have no intrest in the railroads that served it. Yet I put a steeple cab trolley in the place of the original line, or leased Milw, GN & DMIR locos, BAM! it's suddenly intresting and fun to model.
Am I a rivet counter when it comes to the rolling stock, no. Am I reasonably time accurate, yes. Anything car built before 1955 has the possibilty of showing up, of course likelihood is another problem.
Perhaps. Paul you may be right..But a nagging question..Who made us judges of others work without being ask?
I see this at all three clubs and of course on line..Never could figure why judge when few really want to hear?
This happen to me..I donated a background building to the club and one slob ask why wasn't it detailed better? A good question but needless.You see this building is 5 feet away from the closest viewing point and three quarters of it is hidden by a taller building...Then this same slob ask why I didn't make tree instead of buying Woodland Scenics ready made trees? Well that was a no brainer for the majority of the club...I have limited use of my right hand and its very hard to do some things.I didn't reply with words..I just flex my right hand-closes about around 1/2 of the way except my thumb and pointer finger..Kinda looks like a "finger gun" LOL..The guy's face turn red and he walked away after saying a involuntary "Oh!".
At any rate I bought the trees for the area I was working on..Who was he to say anything?
This guy doesn't attend to often(every three months in order to pay his dues) and when he does he's a royal pain.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Paul,
While I will agree with you that a thicker skin is always good to have, I'm still going to have to disagree with you on a particular point of yours.
I don't think you can just flat out conclude or presume that everyone who posts a picture on the forum is automatically "showing off their skills" or inviting others to critique their work. It may be that they are legitimately sharing something that they have discovered or learned on their own - e.g. a new modeling techniquie or project idea. Discoveries can be "shared" without inviting or looking for a critique.
Wouldn't it be wiser and more proper to ask the postee first to see whether or not they are open and receptive to a said "criticism" rather than just jumping in with a comment that may not necessarily be welcome? I choose to do the former, so as to give the person a choice in the matter.
Food for thought...not food for throwing.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Geared Steam,I didn't say the guy who commented on the rusty hopper was right. He obviously blew the call on that one.
selector,I think we can all agree that one should be careful not to offend when offering criticism of someone else's modeling. Likewise, those who post their modeling pictures should also be careful not to be easily offended. Both sides (the critic and the artist) should realize that text cannot convey emotion very well, and what seems perfectly benign to one can sound like the direst insult to another.
Brakie,Sorry but I must disagree. Someone who posts pics of their work is not "sharing" (unless they are doing a "how to" project). A person who just posts pics of their modeling is showing off their skills in either photography or modeling. Sort of like, "Look what I did!" This naturally invites comments. If they didn't want comments, then either they should say that upfront, or not post them to a public discussion forum in the first place.
Paul,Actually if one posts a picture of his/her work to my mind he is just sharing and unlesss ask for there should be NO "helpful" replies.After all the modeler may be doing the best work he/she can with their skill level or physical or perhaps mental handicap and we have no way of knowing their age either....
I suppose we are not all master model railroaders or craftsman and model in our own skill level and may never be able to do better.
Its easier not to comment negatively on a poorly done model then to speak because of the above reasons.A kind word can work wonders in some cases.
I sense that we are warming to this subject. Let's please be a little careful about allowing it to boil over....just a gentle caution, that's all.
Lee, one of the regimental motto's in the Canadian Armed Forces (Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry (now in Afghanistan as of this month) is, "Never pass a fault". In the military context, where lives are at stake, or potentially so, this has some considerable import. I think you were experiencing a more laid back form of that from interested and knowledgeable modelers who were willing to take the time to coach you on how to think about your modelling along with emoting about it. Good for them, and I'll bet you have passed that along.
Chip and Paul, I generally agree that one should not post an image here unless one is willing to accept feedback. It doesn't always have to be complimentary, but it should always...and I do mean always...useful and nurturing in the goal of improvement. When it gets too acidic or too involved and lengthy, it tends to poison a thread. It can even be downright offensive and therefore at least as what seemed objectionable about the very image it was intending to criticize. If it doubles the "offensiveness" of a thread's content in a single response, how is that nurturing and constructive? It isn't, plainly.
I hate to keep have to keep harping on this, but everyone might just as well accept that it is my pet peeve, artless criticism, and I won't stand for it. I do try to coach off-line so that no one else's sensibilities are offended, but I can't stay off-line if my "target" insists on keeping it out in the open. Nuff said about that...I hope.
In the end, Paul, you are right. Post? Why post? It's not a vacuum out here, and someone will notice something about an image that probably should be brought to the provider's attention. It's the same with Lee's elders who patiently, and artfully, and tactfully, taught him to consider things he had not previously considered. If you want to see a very recent example of a neutral and unhurtful way of drawing attention to something missing or just wrong, see Mabruce's reply to mikelhh in his thread "Photos of my diorama."
Edit- I got the thread and author wrong....sorry. Now corrected.