Freelancers are afraid of Rivet Counters

[markpierce]

Attempts to divide hobbyists causes "negative waves."  So, stop it!  We can all learn from each other, using whatever information increases our satisfaction.  Model railroading is a joy.  So, let us enjoy!

Mark

[gmcrail]

Nice job of "stirring the pot", Chip! 

 The only thing that bothers me about this thread, though, is the tendency to equate prototype modelers with the obnoxious, annoying, and rude "rivet counters".  Prototype modelers are a fantastic source of information on prototype practices, which most, if not all freelancers incorporate in their layouts, to one degree or another.   "Rivet counters", on the other hand, are the annoying OCD types who feel compelled to point out errors and omissions on one's models, criticize (not constructively!) one's scenery or lack thereof, and generally make nuisances of themselves and thus unwelcome in any gathering of civilized human beings.

 We are ALL, after all, "freelancers" to some degree - our distances are foreshortened, our curves are ridiculously sharp, our scenery is more art than reality, and our locomotives, for Pete's sake, run on electricity, even the diesels and steamers!  And ....  Well, you get the idea.

So, show some tolerance, folks.  It's all just "pretend", anyway! 

 

BTW, Chip - I picked up a DVD of "Blazing Saddles" the other day, just to refresh myself on the good folks of Rock Ridge.  It's still hilarious, even after all these years!

 

 

[shayfan84325]

I participate in two hobbies, primarily.  I built, drive, and show a street custom VW; and then there's model railroading.  At car shows this same discussion goes on regarding restorers and hot rodders.

The way I resolve it in my own mind is that we benefit from each other, and that neither way of participating in either hobby is righter than the other way.  I don't believe that my freelance model railroad diminishes the hobby for dedicated prototype modelers any more than my modified car diminishes the car hobby for a dedicated restorer.

As both a hot rodder and a free lancer, I'm grateful for the way the restorers and prototype modelers maintain the history for us.  Without the prototype guys, we might lose track of what's plausible, and our freelanced layouts may start looking more like a fantasy and less like the real world.

I do believe that all of us are creative; it's just that the prototype modelers also have a penchant for research.  I'm glad our hobby gives them an opportunity to do it.  For me, research is too much like work.  I'm very grateful to the prototype modelers who freely share their knowledge - they save me a lot of time and effort.

In my mind, a model is an accurate representation of something else - based on that, I've come to think that the prototype modelers are the truest model railroaders.  I like to think of myself as a miniature railroader (railroad miniaturist?) - My layout is a plausible representation in miniature, but it is not a model in the strictest sense of the word.

I do think there's room for all of us in our hobby, and that we can even be friends.  It's just a matter of recognizing that we're both right: A prototype modeler does what's right for him, and I do what's right for me.

[vsmith]

Personally, I have long understood "rivet counter" to be a pejorative term for someone who obnoxiously and uninvited points out where someone else's model/model railroad/model railroad operations has a very tiny flaw or deviation from the prototype.  

For people who have expert knowledge, I call them "experts". 

Enjoy

Paul 

To define Rivet Counter, this is a my definition also.

As for me, do I fear Rivet Counters, shucks no! If I did would I continue to post pictures of my little nightmares .

My latest little large scale terror from off my workbench.

If anything I really enjoy watching them squirm at shows where I've shown them

I've said before I personally find prototypical modeling to be restrictive and stifling, but that hasnt stopped me from using real railroads as a source for material for my own stuff. My entire goal in this hobby is to enjoy myself and if some nutjob comes up to me and tries to enforce their own narrow definition of whats only acceptable in model railroading, they are going to get a very rude awakening...

[steemtrayn]

Is there room here for a rivet counting freelanceer who likes just about evything except opera and rap.

Not if you like bagpipe music.

I live in fear of bagpipes.

Q: What's the difference between an onion and bagpipes?

A: Nobody cries when you chop up bagpipes.

[jecorbett]

I differentiate between prototype modelers and rivet counters. To me a rivet counter is someone who has an obsession with 100% fidelity to a particular prototype and that nothing short of that is acceptable. While that in itself is not a negative trait, it does become obnoxious when they expect the rest of the modeling world to comply to their standards. I've seen that manifested on these boards when someone complains that a newly released item has some minor variation from the prototype it is supposed to represent. As if the manufacturers are supposed to tool their productions to produce an exact replica of some particular prototype. That is a totally unrealistic expectation. Most modelers are perfectly content with a model that is a reasonable facsimile of an actual piece of equipment. If it is that important to the rivet counters that each piece be 100% accurate, they should expect to custom the final details themselves. As for those rivet counters who seem to feel compeled to point out the inaccuracies in other people's models I would simply say, "Just shut up!".

[tstage]

The bottom line is that both "rivet counters" AND "freelancers" can equally be snobbish in their attitude and in their own position in the hobby.  That's called pride and arrogance.  Neither person is enjoyable to be around, IMHO.

For me, a rivit counter who thrives on detailing prototypically and accurately for their own enjoyment but who also is willing to share that wealth of knowledge and information that he or she has learned (*Prerequisite*: when asked for), I think is a real boon to the good of the hobby.  I don't think we would have the quality of models and detailed parts that we now enjoy if it weren't for folks pushing the modeling envelope and crying out for more accuracy.

Equally so, a freelancer who constructs a layout for himself and others to enjoy (for whatever the reasons may be) is also a boon to the betterment of the hobby.  I can equally enjoy, respect, and learn from their enjoyment of MRRing - even though I might not necessarily model in the same style or vein they do.  For me, this also holds true for folks (like the one that Dave Vollmer mentioned earlier) who go to the nth degree to detail something but never run it on a layout.  I can learn and get ideas from their intensive attention to detail and realism - even though I might not necessarily take my modeling skills quite to that same degree.

I am grateful that MRRing is broad and wide enough that all of us can enjoy it to whatever degree and extent we aspire and desire to enjoy it.  (I can ALWAYS learn from somebody else.)  And MRRing is as much about people as it is about the hobby iteself.  The idea that one way of modeling is "more creative" than the other is a bunch of hogwash, IMO.  This hobby IS a creative fora - no matter where your creative juices and inclinations steer you.

Rivet counter...protolancer...freelancer - whatever title and category you want to put yourself and others into: It's the extreme folks in either camp that look down their noses at others who are the detriment to this beloved hobby of ours.

Okay, I've posted my ...and perhaps too much.

Tom

[pastorbob]

I am conflicted.  My Santa Fe in Oklahoma in 1989 is pretty much prototype.  But, the Santa Fe sold an old secondary line, the Orient line in Western Oklahoma to a company that scrapped it.

So I "sold" the line to a new regional, the Oklahoma Northern,  horrors, it is a freelance.  I enjoy both lines, I have painted and decalled several diesels and lots of grain cars for the ON.  In short I enjoy both worlds with no appolgy to anyone.

 

[Kenfolk]

Terrorists, heavily armed felons, drivers under the influence, I sometimes fear.

But trains are fun, whether I'm working on my own freelanced layout, enjoying a very prototypical layout, or discussing both with the folks at the LHS where ever they are on this continuum. 

We all can't and won't agree on everything -- kind of like the members of a church, civic organization, political party, or whatever -- but we still can agree to be friends and be constructive, and to enjoy our association together. And sometimes, we can just agree to disagree.

My layout is and will continue to be freelanced, because it harkens back to my memories from childhood (which are not as accurate as they once were),  it is limited by  my resources of time, money, and patience (ah...patience...I'm still working to improve that!), and because I want it to be a layout my grandchildren will enjoy (when I get grandchildren). A large part of what I do is plausible, but I have a tendency to throw in a lot of humor--so as people look at it closer, they notice the funny stuff. Life isn't always humorous or funny, but my layout can be.

For whatever they are worth, these are my thoughts, and if you don't agree, hey, that's fine.

 

[tattooguy67]

I have a sign on my door that says "NO RIVET COUNTERS ALLOWED BEYOND THIS POINT". This is my layout and I'll run it as I see fit to.

Cool. 

Rivet counters are horrible people.

They are also the people that take the time to answer hundreds of "trivial" detail questions that people ask about railroads.  They know because they took the time to do the research.  They have taken the time to answer the questions.  Many of them YOUR questions.  I just find it interesting that you would dis the very people who help you.

If you don't want anybody who might have a clue about railroads viewing your railroad that's fine. 

Like I said, I would like to see a definition of a rivet counter.  I consider it a person who is an expert/authority/very knowledgeable in a particular subject or aspect of a subject.  Evidently many have a very different definition.

Dave H.

Actually the person you describe is not a rivit counter in the negative sense of the word, the person you describe is a gem, a jewel, a valuable resource, a boon to the hobby, and someone who would be offered free beer in my house!. The rivit counter to me is someone who would tear you down or ridicule you for haveing an FM-C liner numbered 9906 because every one knows they never went that high!, when in fact a. you never asked for the tutorial, and b. that is our wedding date thank you very much!, that to me is a rivit counter.

[tattooguy67]

Dave Vollmer says"

It amazes me how often people will discount out-of-hand any suggestion, no matter how kindly offered, that there may be a better way to do something, but yet they'll wonder why their layouts don't look like the ones in the magazines."

There is some truth to this statement, and as you say there are some that need to thicken their skin, but when you see a comment on some ones weathering like "it looks like the engine was run full throttle through a Sherwin Williams paint store", instead of like you often say the pos.neg.pos. sandwhich of "so you decided to try some weathering on your loco, you might want to lighten up some, its a little heavy, here are some tips, you will do better next time", or some such. Humans are funny critters in this aspect, if you post a photo and get 30 comments, 25 of which are the" hey not bad or this looks good" type and 5 of which are the "that is just awful, what are you thinking putting that up" type, which do you think will stick with most people the longest?, it may not be right but it is the way most people are.

[gandydancer19]

I think there is a rivet counter in each of us.

As we learn more and more, and try to achieve the realism with our models and scenery that a model railroad should, whether freelance or prototype, we become more knowledgeable. Possibly more knowledgeable that the modeler next to us.

I think where the rivet counters have created a bad sort of name for themselves is that they tend to dish out too much criticism for another modelers work.

My definition of a rivet counter is "Another modeler who will point out flaws and imperfection in your work and your equipment, and at the same time, doesn't have the skills to do the same things that you have done, build the models that you build, and has nothing to show of his own modeling skills, or lack thereof."

So, what I do when I run into them is simply say, "Show me your models. Put up, or shut up."

[on30francisco]

Luckily, I don't have to worry about freelancing, protolancing, prototype modeling, or rivet counters since I model in large scale and On30. I find that these two communities have a very laid back and tolerant attitude toward all types of modeling. Remember, no matter how you do it, MODEL RAILROADING IS FUN!

[dwRavenstar]

"I have what I like, I like what I have."

Perhaps the common phrase between the two perspectives.

dwRavenstar 

[hobo9941]

I ain't skeered of no stinkin rivet counters! I do try to make my layout, and my operations as realistic, and prototype as possible. But I'm not losing any sleep over whether my prototype locos had 3 chime or 5 chime horns. And I still can't tell the difference between an SD40 and an SD40-2, nor do I care. I'm having fun, which is the reason I do it.

I suspect rivet counters, are rivet counters in other aspects of their lives, and probably have a lot of stress. It ain't worth it. Lighten up.

[Packers#1]

My personal definition for a rivet counter is someone who is obessed with prtotypiclality on their pike and others, and when someone does something that ordinarily would not happen on the prototype, they point it out, and will sometimes freak out. Like on WPF last week, jktrains said that New Haven I-5 was running coaches together that wouldn't be running together in real life.

[selector]

Well said, David.  It's a sad circumstance when we feel we need to diminish or criticize the efforts and interests of others as somehow not quite as worthy as our own in order to feel better about our own decisions.  Very sad, indeed.

I see the "we" and "they", nameless faces that "we" are all talking about, but I have never met the "other" that "we" are supposed to enjoy vilifying.

I am quite certain I wouldn't have to work hard to enjoy someone else's layout for what it is, whether done down to the micron in amazing fidelity to the prototype or entirely fanciful and still fun and involved.  I would hope the authors of such works would, in turn, not have to work too hard to find something about my take on the hobby appealing and pleasant to behold...and talk about sensibly.

Yes, Chip, I guess I do have fear after all; it would be the fear that I might meet someone who would not be able to simply take my interest in toy trains at face value, with all its inaccuracies and ideosyncracies.  On the other hand, I fear I might meet someone who would not invite me to view his layout for fear I would be less than charitable about his version of the hobby.  We would both miss out on something.  I do fear that.

-Crandell

[IRONROOSTER]

...

Like I said, I would like to see a definition of a rivet counter.  I consider it a person who is an expert/authority/very knowledgeable in a particular subject or aspect of a subject.  Evidently many have a very different definition.

Dave H.

from wiktionary:

A rivet counter is a person having an obsession with the minutae of their particular interest, exemplified by a remark such as "you can tell the Mark 5 from the Mark 4, it's got an extra rivet holding the side skirt". The term is often applied to a railfan with a greater than usual interest in physical details, but may refer to anyone preoccupied with small distinguishing features between different items. Calling someone a rivet counter in effect criticises them for having an unreasonable obsession with trivial matters.

Granted it's an wiki open content dictionary, still... 

Personally, I have long understood "rivet counter" to be a pejorative term for someone who obnoxiously and uninvited points out where someone else's model/model railroad/model railroad operations has a very tiny flaw or deviation from the prototype.  

For people who have expert knowledge, I call them "experts". 

Enjoy

Paul 

[Packers#1]

What i meant about freelancers having more imagination is the fact that usually, we have to build from the ground up. Sometimes we'll even write down our railroad's history. Now prototypers probably have a little more scratchbuilding talent because of needing to build depictions of prototypes. Now, of course, all model railroaders have skill.

[Dave Vollmer]

This topic always manages to bring out such an overwhelming tide of ignorance it makes me want to curl up in a corner and suck my thumb...

People who want to follow a prototype with accuracy do not automatically look down on those who don't.

People who freelance are not necessarily more creative than prototypers.  I kitbash my N scale Pennsy steamers (pretty creative, I think), but many freelancers (not all, of course) just buy directly off the shelf.  Which is more creative?

It amazes me how often people will discount out-of-hand any suggestion, no matter how kindly offered, that there may be a better way to do something, but yet they'll wonder why their layouts don't look like the ones in the magazines.

Improvement comes by first admitting that you're not perfect, no matter what part of the modeling spectrum you fall on.  And if you don't want to improve, that's fine too...  but expect that at some point the rest of the hobby will pass you by.

[SpaceMouse]

I think that here's another Myth

Myth: Prototypers are not as artistic as freelancers.

Fact: It takes as much artistic talent to create a landscape as it does to create an abstract. In model railroading it, in fact, takes more ability. However, I would submit that to make a realistic looking layout in both prototype and freelance, takes the exact same talent.

[Packers#1]

Why should I be afraid of you prototypers? Ya'll just don't have a ton of imagination, so you follow something that has already been created. We freelancer build a railroad from almost scratch. Now who's to say freelancer can't add a prototype to their layout, or prototypers a freelanced loco or industry. But to answer your question: No, I am not scared of prototypers. Who cares if someone thinks my layout is bad because I didn't do something prototypical? Now to say I wouldn't try to work that in or learn from that suggestion... I think guys post that sign so that you rivet counters won't make a ton of negative comments without understanding the pike's flavor. Also, it is the freelancer's golden rule.

[steinjr]

Is there room here for a rivet counting freelanceer who likes just about evything except opera and rap.

Not if you like bagpipe music.

 When I was a student many years ago I used a tape recording of a Highland regimental pipe band playing "Scotland the Brave" as my wakeup call when I had to get up to go to work at 6 am on Saturdays.

 Until all my neighbours in the dormitory got together to remove all the electrical fuses in the building after I fell asleep, so the tape recorder failed to start on time.

 It seems that some people find the sound of pipes in the wee hours to be a frightening experience ....

 Grin,
 Stein, who is not going to get into the prototype vs freelance fight

 

[AntonioFP45]

The whole argument is flawed.

There are probably only a handful of real rivet counters.  I've met a few in the PRRPro modeling group.  They don't seem mean at all.  But they will spend a year on a single RB50 PRR express refer with no layout to run it on.

Most of us fall somewhere on a spectrum anchored at one end by running whatever strikes our fancy and strictly by prototype on the other end.  There are several myths that need to be dispelled:

Myth:  Rivet counters don't have fun.

Fact:  Rivet counters have as much fun as freelancers, just via different means.

Myth:  Freelancing is more fun than modeling a prototype.

Fact:  It depends on the modeler.  I went from freelancing to prototyping, and I'm now having much more fun!

Myth:  Freelancers freelance because they don't know enough about prototype railroads.

Fact:  There are many reasons to freelance.  Many very knowledgeable people (including people who work for real railroads!) freelance, because no one particular prototype meets their modeling objectives.

Myth:  The natural progression of a modeler is to go from freelancer to prototyper.

Fact:  Modeling style evolves as one's modeling objectives shift, and it's not always in the same direction.

Myth:  Prototype modelers have no respect for freelancers.

Fact:  There may be a bad apple in every barrel, but for the most part modelers are viewed by other modelers by their accomplishments.  I don't think even the most hardcore proto modeler would ever have called out Allen McClelland on his V&O or Bill Darnaby on his Maumee, do you?

Myth:  It's my railroad, I can run what I want, and if you don't like it, leave.

Fact:  We learn from other modelers when we open ourselves up to constructive criticism.  Yes, it's your layout...  but unless you want to be stuck in a rut until the end of time, you'll need to be able to look at your own work with a critical eye.  Often, that requires input from others.

Myth:  You have to take sides in the rivet-counter versus freelancer debate.

Fact:  Since few of us are actually on one of those sides, that's an exercie in futility.

Those are by two (or more) cents...

EDIT:

I belong to several other fora, and one is a pretty advanced modeler's forum.  There I expect and receive critical inspection of my work (not just attaboys).  I have already improved a number of projects from their comments, and am a better modeler for it.

Advancement really does require the occasional "Here's what you could have done better..." 

Dave Vollmer posted it so realistically well!    IMHO, the above statements  should be posted in one of the upcoming issues of MRR.

It's so annoying that as a whole we've let a few "grunts" on the Prototype and Freelance sides cause us to, unnecessarily, become divided on this issue.  It's downright ridiculous.

 

[dehusman]

I have a sign on my door that says "NO RIVET COUNTERS ALLOWED BEYOND THIS POINT". This is my layout and I'll run it as I see fit to.

Cool. 

Rivet counters are horrible people.

They are also the people that take the time to answer hundreds of "trivial" detail questions that people ask about railroads.  They know because they took the time to do the research.  They have taken the time to answer the questions.  Many of them YOUR questions.  I just find it interesting that you would dis the very people who help you.

If you don't want anybody who might have a clue about railroads viewing your railroad that's fine. 

Like I said, I would like to see a definition of a rivet counter.  I consider it a person who is an expert/authority/very knowledgeable in a particular subject or aspect of a subject.  Evidently many have a very different definition.

Dave H.

[BRAKIE]

Nah.

Rivet counting is a load of bull (edited by selector.

It is an inconsequential practice indulged by inconsequential people.

If you want to be anal about something that is supposed to be fun, go ahead.

Just leave people who ENJOY the hobby out of it.

Start flame war in three ... two.. one ...

Shouldn't the correct term be "Rivet Snobs"? Seems that way to me...

 

No..Only the bad apples not the good rivet counters that doesn't push their modeling style on others or nit pic.

Here lays the rub.There are those "rivet counters" that feel superior to all and are in all truth rotten to the core because of their action around others.Then you have the majority that are basically good guys that believes "to each their own".

[loathar]

Nah.

Rivet counting is a load of bull (edited by selector.

It is an inconsequential practice indulged by inconsequential people.

If you want to be anal about something that is supposed to be fun, go ahead.

Just leave people who ENJOY the hobby out of it.

Start flame war in three ... two.. one ...

Shouldn't the correct term be "Rivet Snobs"? Seems that way to me...

[tomikawaTT]

Is there room here for a rivet counting freelanceer who likes just about evything except opera and rap.

Not if you like bagpipe music.

Ah, yes.  The pipes, the kilts, the dead-accurate marksmen...

I am a rivet-counting freelancer, which gives me a tremendous advantage.  I am the only one who knows how many rivets there are, and where they are located!

I also have another advantage, which I have used on a few visitors who don't realize there are railroads outside the borders of the United States - I simply shift to my layout's native language.  Even if they hadn't noticed the katakana symbols in the reporting marks, the hiragana station platform signs and the kanji on storefronts, hearing Nihon-go (even with my atrocious accent) usually gets the message across.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - as I like it)

[jecorbett]

Freelancers have no reason to fear rivet counters because what we do is the polar opposite of what they do. They can't tell us something is inaccurate because there is no prototype that we need to be accurate to. If anyone should be bothered by rivet counters, it is the prototype modeler who has less than a rivet counter's obsession with 100% accurate models. They are the ones more likely to have a rivet counter point out their errors. Freelancers on the other hand can just look at a rivet counter and laugh.   

[howmus]

Well, Chip, IMO, Rivet Counters are the same thing as Baroque Musicologists.  Not a lot of them are actual working performing musicians, but they've sure got a lot to tell you about how the proper ways to interpret Baroque music with the proper instruments and techniques and ornamentation, and when you tell them that you play the piano, which didn't come along until right at the end of the Baroque period and is basically a 19th century ROMANTIC instrument and has a sound that is probably completely foreign to any of the Baroque composers, they'll just ignore you and give you a lecture, anyway.   Or try and convert you into playing the Harpsichord. 

Nah.  Tried the Harpsichord.  Brahms and Schumann just sound PATHETIC on a Harpsichord. 

I'll stick with the piano, and AWAY from Baroque music. 

And Rivet Counters. 

Tom  

What a shame. I go for Baroque.

OTOH, I also go for Classical, Romantic, Bluegrass, R&B, Swing, Boogie Woogie, Doo Wop and Dixieland.

Incidentally, did you see the recent (last couple of days) PBS special highlighting Jerry Lee Lewis? That man can play some piano.

Andre

Well, I for one, love Baroque incuding Bach, as well as Telemann, Fop, and Fux.  In fact I like the Baroque almost as much as I love the Renaisance!  Probably explains why I model 1925......

Every once in a while I see some "Rivet Counters" that have a sense of humour as well as vast knowledge of prototypes.  A week ago I took this caboose that I have super detailed to an NMRA Division Meet.

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An aquaintance of mine who is a MRR had been looking at it so I asked him if it might qualify for NMRA Merit Judging.  He said that he thought it wouldn't too hard to find 87.5 points to qualify the model and that he would give almost all the points for it in the prototype catagory.  I told him that 1.  I had found that there really is no one way to layout a caboose as almost anything could be prototype and 2. that it is for a fictional road.  He grinned and said, "exactly".  Then winked. 

I think we really make too much of this issue.  I have never had any of my friends in the hobby "attack" me or my layout because of a lack of rivets.....