Anybody else getting annoyed........

[steamage]

Come to think of it, 4884bigboy, that happened to me too, the last time I was in a hobby shop. They have the hobby shop hangout boys there were full of comments that I didn't need to hear.
Not like its young people, its three old retired guys that should be home working on the layout. And minding their own business.
So I don't go to hobby shops much anymore, I'll just order through the mail.

[tomikawaTT]

If I (note the emphasis) want an oompaloompa NOW, I'll do whatever it takes to get it.  If some kind manufacturer has seen fit to produce it, I'll happily buy RTR.  If (more frequently) it's something that has flown below the industry's radar, I'll kitbash or scratch it - and I include locomotives in this statement.

If the 'professional critics' don't like what I'm doing, or have done, they are welcome to their opinions.  They will gain extra points if they keep them to themselves, unless they include some special detail or technique that applies to the specific situation I'm dealing with ("You can substitute a crosspoint screw for the slotted one, it makes assembly easier.")  Negative general opinions delivered as Stone Tablets from Zion are NOT appreciated.

It's an individual hobby, and each of us is entitled to pursue model railroad happiness in an individual way.  Above all, have fun.

Finally, remember the Golden Rule - "He who puts up the gold, makes the rules."  (The Three Stooges didn't offer to buy or give you a kit, did they?)

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

 

[RedGrey62]

It's interesting that this topic floated back to page 1.  I had the opportunity to talk to Stephen Priest this past weekend.  As many of you may know, he does some graphic art work for various manufacturers and told us that one has changed its prodcution ratio (kits to RTR) several times and setteld on 95% RTR and 5% kits because teh RTR keeps selling out.  I don't see the trend shifting anytime soon.

Rick

[mobilman44]

Hi,

You know what I really like about this hobby?   Well it is that I can build and run my railroad anyway I want, and the only person I have to please is me!!!

I've been playing with trains since about 1954, and while I prefer kits for freight cars, I buy RTR for passenger and locos.  But you know, those RTR BLIs & P2Ks and Walthers are really not finished, and there are always parts to apply or details to add.

What does bother me is the fact that the "younger generation" IN MY VIEW does not seem to embrace kit building, and certainly not kit bashing or scratch building.  I'm 63 and I cut my teeth on model building (all kinds) and it was a major help in my hobby participation. 

All that being said, whatever gets folks into the hobby is OK by me.  Ha, I have 4 children (3 boys) in their late 30s/early 40s, and while they love to check out the ol man's layout and latest structure or car, they really couldn't care less about the hobby.

Hey, whatever you like - just ENJOY !!!!

Mobilman44

[on30francisco]

Kinda torques me off, too. I really enjoy scratch building things, but had it not been for Bachmann's Spectrum RTR On30 series locomotives, I likely would not have gotten into that scale. Now, I have scratch built several On30 locomotives. I'll buy at least one or two more RTR locos, and I'm sure a lot of my rolling stock will be RTR. I think people need to mind their own beeswax.

The same here. The availability of quality RTR by bachmann has got me into On30. I've scratchbuilt some logging rolling stock and structures over 20 years ago for O scale narrow gauge and guess what - the stuff I scratchbuilt years ago is now available as a kit or RTR. I now use RTR for locos and rolling stock and simple kits for structures (I'd probably never buy a RTR structure) for On30 because what's available commercially is far better and cheaper than I could build - and the manufacturers know how to put those pesky little details in just the right places! Why reinvent the square wheel?

Besises On30, I model in Gn15 and Fn3 where scratchbuilding is a must, however, I find it an  extremely easy and relaxing activity due to the large size of the equipment. I still use RTR locos and might try to scratchbuild one some day. In this scale I can really build unique equipment that is not available commercially. 

[LD357]

 I WANT! I WANT! I WANT! GIMMEGIMMEGIMME!!  Jeesh!! There are so many produscts out there now that Walthers needs  A Sears & Roebuck size catalog to list them and now you want more??

 With the amount of super detail and company specific detail kits why in the world do you want the manufacturers to make an even more extensive line of products? and you want the entire BNSF and UP rosters?  GET REAL!!! If you want a particular piece of equipment and for some odd reason you can't find it at Walthers or one of the hundreds of other retailers...make it yourself!!

  It's sad that people today are so lazy and inept that they can't even make simple scratchbuilt pieces and want someone else to make obscure one-of-a-kind equipment just for them.

Case in point.

 Well Ted, you'll notice I said simple scratcbuilding, no where did I say anything about involved massive construction, so my post isn't even relevant to this thread. I seem to have struck a nerve with you though and I wonder why? I didn't say scratchbuilders are better than anyone else, or that scratchbuilt equipment is better, you simply interpreted it that way.

  You said you have a thick skin and don't want to argue.....but your actions betray your true intentions. SO tell us.....why are you so insulted? surely you don't feel guilty for using RTR? everyone does it. And if you  feel as though you don't  have good modelling skills, then don't worry, not everyone can produce masterpieces, I know I sure can't.

[Ted Marshall]

   I seem to have struck a nerve with you though and I wonder why? I didn't say scratchbuilders are better than anyone else, or that scratchbuilt equipment is better, you simply interpreted it that way.

  You said you have a thick skin and don't want to argue.....but your actions betray your true intentions. SO tell us.....why are you so insulted? surely you don't feel guilty for using RTR? everyone does it. And if you  feel as though you don't  have good modelling skills, then don't worry, not everyone can produce masterpieces, I know I sure can't.

You did strike a nerve, you refered to us as lazy and inept because we insist to be given what we want which was longer production runs of popular railcars with more road numbers. You suggested that we should stop crying and build it ourselves.

[LD357]

 I WANT! I WANT! I WANT! GIMMEGIMMEGIMME!!  Jeesh!! There are so many produscts out there now that Walthers needs  A Sears & Roebuck size catalog to list them and now you want more??

 With the amount of super detail and company specific detail kits why in the world do you want the manufacturers to make an even more extensive line of products? and you want the entire BNSF and UP rosters?  GET REAL!!! If you want a particular piece of equipment and for some odd reason you can't find it at Walthers or one of the hundreds of other retailers...make it yourself!!

  It's sad that people today are so lazy and inept that they can't even make simple scratchbuilt pieces and want someone else to make obscure one-of-a-kind equipment just for them.

Case in point.

Ted, please read what I said and YOU quoted, where did I say ANYTHING about crying/crybabys??  Or whining for that matter.   You sure do take things personally don't you?  well, since thats the case I'll refrain from further dispariging comments on this subject.

 But if you're going to quote someone, get it right.

[Ted Marshall]

    I stand by my assertion that theres too many lazy,inept people out there and they whine about not being able to buy the most obscure,never seen and one-of-a-kind stuff, that only THEY would ever buy.

Whine, cry...the same thing. I didn't misquote anything.

[LD357]

 Copy-pasting from an entirely different thread, Ted?   You are mad aren't you??!!  LMAO

 WEll, no apology will be forthcoming and don't bother me with any stupid PM's, I couldn't possibly care less what you have to say to me.

 Consider this fiasco closed.

[R. T. POTEET]

Fred W;

I stopped monitoring this thread back at the end of July when it disappeared from the first three pages of the index; then, wallah, it is here again and I looked at your two recent responses and CNJ831's recent response.

In looking at my loose-leaf bound MRs for 1949 there is a prevailing word running through the advertising; KIT! KIT!KIT!. The word dominates the advertising for locomotives and cars, both freight and passenger. There was little advertising for structures; there were, I am sure, structure kits around but if you wanted structures you were expected to scratchbuild'em and there were a lot of articles in the pages of those MRs with prototype plans you could build from. There were also a lot of locomotive - both steam and diesel - drawings and numerous articles carrying titles like Building your XYZ 2-10-2 kit and Modifying the ABC 2-8-0 to a PDQ Railroad Class T and Scratchbuilding an IJK Reefer in O Scale. These type articles were still prevalent when I got into the hobby in 1962 and I read them with some interest and murmured "One of these days!!!"

I purchased a couple of Athearn GP30 body shells in 1964 and put them on Hobbytown of Boston's universal chassis' mechanisms - due to my model railroading inexperience at that time I did not realize that there was a defect in the GP30 cab but they ran great and when I first put them on the layout at the club I joined in Taxachusetts the following year and members there saw that I could pull the walls down with them there was a great deal of interest in Hobbytown of Boston.

My first assembling of an HO Scale kit was the direct result of a challenge. I had taken a defective - and I do mean defective, the kit had been heavily cannibalized - Varney Mountain kit back to the hobby shop in San Bernardino, Calif and the proprietor was trying to convince me to buy a Bowser K4 kit instead of having to give me my money back on the return. I didn't really want a Pennsy prototype but one of the hangers-on there that day gave me a challenge to build a kit and he suggested that I consider a Cary/Mantua Mikado assembly and I forked out about thirty-two fifty and walked out of the store with it. It took me a couple of months to put it together, I took the advice of a MR clinic feature and used jewelers rouge to break it in but when I took it back to that hobby shop to show it to the guy who had challenged me to build it he was nowhere to be found and I never saw him again; the hobby shop owner didn't really appear to know who he was.

But that experience had trapped me as it seems that Darth Santa Fe has been trapped! That was in 1968 and over the course of the next thirteen years I assembled 16 more die-cast locomotives -  Cary/Mantuas, Bowsers, and Hobbytown of Boston units; most of these had considerable superdetailing.. At the time I bolted HO Scale for N Scale in 1981-82 I was giving consideration to ordering a Tiger Valley diesel kit.

The thing I am trying to say by this is that times have changed and the new modeler wants an immediate availability of his purchase - that is Ready-to-Run. When you had to either build it yourself or assemble it yourself your availability of layout time did tend to suffer; today's modeler wants to be a runner and there is nothing wrong with that. The trackside photos features from those antique Model Railroaders[/] of mine frequently were annotated with captions like "Dinglefoot Cloudburst's 11 by 23 foot layout is home to 3 steam engines and 37 freight cars". It is hard to tell just how long it took Dinglefoot Cloudburst to accumulate his 'extensive' equipment roster but I'll lay odds that it took him more than one trip to the hobby shop to do it.

I once took the better part of a week assembling a [i]Silver Streak reefer kit! On the club layout referenced earlier some of the steam locomotives had been built from kits in the pre-WWII era. Many - perhaps even most - of the members of that club had home machineshops or at least owned either a milling machine or a lathe. Assembly time for some of those old kits could be weeks. Several members had extensive fleets of scratchbuilt steam engines. Now assembling a kit is not the easiest task in the world but many of these guys had cut their teeth in the pre-WWII era assembling these kits and they just accepted a smaller sized loco and car fleet as par for the course. That was one of the considerable joys of model railroading and they took great pride in watching that scratchbuilt and custom painted steam engine traverse the layout. Today there seems to be considerable whining about why a particular model has not ever been offered - at least never been offered in plastic - or why manufacturers never seem to offer a particular freight car heralded and painted for a particular railroad.

Those were the good ol' days and those days are denied me in N Scale which is a ready-to-run scale. Somebody down in Florida way back when Bill Halsey was on the Annapolis rowing team offered some N Scale craftsman kits but his advertising didn't stay in the magazines for very long.

I have given some attention over the years to Jim Boyd's Model Railroader article from September, '67 titled Lagged Boilers Are Easier and it never fails to set my chops drooling to doing some N Scale scratchbuilding utilizing a modified Life-Like/Walthers Berkshire to create a 2-10-4 Texas of some ambiguous parentage.

I'm not sure whether a brass bare-bones kit would really go over in this day and age; the "kids" do not want to put in that kind of effort and I don't necessarily labeled it as "laziness'. I remember my first superdetailing of a Cary/Mantua kit; I was terrified of getting everything right. What would I do if I missoldered a part? I did the same thing I did in the Air Force when I made a mistake soldering; I resoldered it! Early on I ruined several pieces by using too much heat and I wasn't particularly careful of cold-solder joints - I sometimes got sloppy in the Air Force too - but it turned out not to be that difficult and was pretty forgiving when you got right down to it.

ATTN CNJ831: I have smoked the peacepipe!!!  

[jfugate]

Life's too short to get annoyed by how anyone else does the hobby!

One myth that needs busted right away is that few people will have the time, resources, and motivation to build a large layout and to also scratchbuild/superdetail everything.

It comes down to priorities. Ready-to-run is a lifesaver for those who dream of having a large layout.

On the other hand, if you are into prototype modeling as I am (and as is popular in the hobby today), you can't just slap RTR equipment on the track and have it look right most of the time.

If you have a large prototype-based layout as I do then you have to pick and choose what you will scratchbuild or kitbash. Myself, I focus on signature structures, locos, and to a lesser degree cabooses. The rolling stock simply needs to look "good enough". But if you look closely at my rolling stock you will find mostly RTR equipment with weathering applied, and *that's it*.

Sure, there's a big move in the hobby today toward accurate freight car modeling. More power to those that enjoy that sort of thing -- I enjoy reading about it, but I can't afford to take the time needed to kitbash every single railcar on my 400+ roster to get hyper-accuracy. 

The other issue is on an operating railroad, every op session has breakage on equipment. So if you rework everything to be hyper-accurate, chances are it will eventually get damaged. But hey, the real railroads deal with car damage all the time as well, so we're not alone. If you run trains a lot, you will have damage and repairs -- just like the prototype.

So those that bemoan the trend of the hobby to RTR need to think again ... RTR simply means more people are building layouts to the stage they can actually have fun running trains -- and layout builders spend more money in the hobby than the few superdetailed locos and cars modeler (thus making the hobby market larger and healthier). Plus the hobby shift to hyper-accurate prototype modeling is keeping the need to do serious kitbashing and scratchbuilding an art that is alive and well.  

[BRAKIE]

Joe said:

On the other hand, if you are into prototype modeling as I am (and as is popular in the hobby today), you can't just slap RTR equipment on the track and have it look right most of the time.

=====================================================================

Why not? The high end locomotives already have the added details..High end cars already have their details..Of course just placing a RTR engine or car on the layout after changing couplers out to KD's is what thousands of modelers do..As far as "prototyical modeling" I don't think that the majority of the modelers do that judging by the pictures I see in several WPFs.

There are still modelers that model the Chessie System that has no idea what the CS was and how none of the Chessie roads was merged.Most still fail to realize that the majority of the C&O and B&O units stayed on home rails during the Chessie era..That changed after the fomation of CSX in 1980.After 1980  you can run any locomotive constist to include Family Lines units as well.

[Derrick Moore]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by ngartshore350

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by Brunton

QUOTE: Originally posted by bukwrm

(except you really cannot divide by zero)

Actually, there is one exception to that rule, where you can divide by zero. Anybody know what that exception is, and what the resultant value is (besides me, I mean)?

I am sure any number divided by itself is one for all but zero, then it is infinity. But it has been a few years since leaving University. I remember something about using this in design a forth order Chebychev Filter (Excuse the spelling!)
Could it be zero divided by zero equals 1?

You can divide by zeroand any number divided by zero is infinity! (Pure Mathematics) Sorry Engineer coming out

But isn't it that by definition anything divided by itself is 1? Engineer in me is also coming out.

Sorry lets try again!

I am sure any number divided by itself is one for all but zero, then it is infinity. But it has been a few years since leaving University. I remember something about using this in design a forth order Chebychev Filter (Excuse the spelling!)

Actually, that's the tricky thing. In some fields of higher matheimatics the definition that any number divided by itself equals one is "superior" to the rule that any number divided by zero is undefined. So the correct answer to zero divided by zero equals one. That's one definition used in some higher mathematical fields. But usually it's just considered indeterminate.

So there is no real answer - it depends on what you're doing.

Kinda twists your brain around, doesn't it?

I think I learned this in abstract algebra, or perhaps it was in Partial Differential Equations.

Don't go to school for thirty years and they go and change EVERYTHING.

I remember specifically being told that 0/0 was NOT 1 but that was a long time ago. I thought (i) was going to come up in this, I never did get that square root of -1 stuff. That's probably why I became a mechanic.

Ah the joys of imaginary numbers!!! What was it? i x i = -1, thus the square root of -1 equals i? Or something like that . . . . . .

If everybody is going to talk about math, then one of ya guys can solve this problem:

Model railroading is models of real trains in which 1in.=87in.(?). If a model of a modern diesel locomotive is 8in., how long is the real locomotive? (have fun!)

 

By the way, I'm all for RTR. I do not have enough time to assemble kits.(Being in high school.)

[tstage]

In the 3+ short years that I've been in this hobby - locomotives aside - I've only bought 2 or 3 RTR items for my layout.  Everything else that I've purchased has been either kits, kitbashed or scratch-built.

Now, I don't say the above to brag or put myself up on a pedestal.  Personally, I just really enjoy and find greater satisfaction with this aspect of the hobby.  However, as mentioned above, on a rare occasion I have bought RTR because it's either not available in kit form and/or it's better than something that I could ever scratch-build myself.

Can we not all agree that there is room for both - i.e. RTR and kits (or do-it-yourself) - in this splendid hobby of ours?  Why must we be bickering amongst ourselves and call one another out on such petty arguments.  Just because I prefer doing things myself doesn't mean I have to look down my nose at someone else who prefers to buy it off the shelf, and vice-versa.

Some of you are concerned how the hobby is perceived by the outside non-MRR world.  If I were to use parts of this heart-warming and endearing thread as an example, I'd have to say that we're just a bunch of old, smug, contankerous, pugnacious and malcontent lone wolves that don't know how to get along with each other, let alone the rest of society.  (Okay.  Perhaps that's a bit unfair.  Some of us aren't old.)

As Joe said, life is just too short to find things to argue about or get annoyed over - particularly when it comes to model railroading.  It's time to move on, to edify rather than vilify one another, and let this kind of thread sink to (and remain at) the bottom of the pond where it belongs.

Sorry to be so blunt... 

Tom