FORUM CLINIC: Picking the best DCC system

[jfugate]

Okay, my other DCC forum clinic assumed you had already selected your DCC system, and went from there.

The "What's the best DCC system to buy?" question comes up at least once a week in this forum, so let's address it head on. The MR DCC buyer's guide was useful to a point, but it didn't really address for newbies how to determine what matters and what doesn't matter when picking a system.

So let's do that!

But first, my disclaimer:
The postings I make in this clinic are my opinions, and not everyone will agree with me. I'll try to be as fair as I can when discussing various systems' strengths and weaknesses, but it is remember, my opinion. I do stand on the fact I have over 12 year's experience with DCC and that I have owned two different vendor's systems in that time, and that I have quite a bit of operating experience using the other vendor's systems that I will discuss at length. I have also downloaded and read through the manuals on all the systems I will discuss.

TOPIC NEXT POST: How do you define "BEST" ?

[Anonymous]

Well, as chief instigator of a related thread, I'll throw down my 2cents. Here are the critical elements for me when considering DCC. In other words, my "best" system would be the one that has the most advantageous offering in these areas (several of which, especially "throttle" are highly subjective!)

1) Throttles. This is critical to me - it's the interface I use and whether I like it or not will determined a large chunk of how happy I am. Issues I'd want to know: Knobs, dials or buttons for primary speed control. Availability of simpler "engineer" throttles versus "dispatcher" throttles. Programmable buttons available, one-push function buttons, complexity of keying sequence to accomplish functions.

2) Wireless. Yes, a subset of Throttles, really, but critical. What wireless options does the system support. How well do they work? What are the limitations (i.e. changing locos without plugging in?) Are there technical issues reports (e.g. time lag). While it might not be a prerequisite today, I see this being like cordless phones. When they first came out, they were a gimmick, a luxury, a gadget. Now they're dominant. I'd guess that 10 years from now it will be unusual to run around a layout plugging and unplugging a tether. I know personally I won't go into a system that doesn't offer a wireless option.

3) Stationary decoders/non-train function control. I realize part of this answer is "that's about the decoder, not the system, and any system SHOULD in theory run any decoder." I'd suggest that A) that isn't true (not all systems will run all decoders) and B) the system itself does impact this issue: e.g. How does the system interface with other-than-loco controls. How complex is it to control signaling, switches/turnouts, accessories, etc. How does it interact with block detection. Does it support two-way decoders and if so, how. Etc.

4) Updateability. Can the system software be updated as standards change and/or new features come available. How? Download? Send the system in? Etc.

5) CTC. Does the system have a way to interface with a CTC functionality. Through a computer such as JMRI? Through a more hardware-based solution like a traditional CTC panel?

This is my top 5 (and I'm purposely limiting it to 5). These are simply MY key issues, and I haven't addressed things like full NMRA compatibility (or lack thereof), support for sound and how complete/effective that support is, etc. etc. Love to hear other people's inputs!

[IRONROOSTER]

Good topic and timely for me as I plan to get into DCC early next year.
My top 5 areas are:
1. Ease of use - I program computers all day at work, I don't want to come home and program the DCC system all night. Ideally I plug the wires into the system and the track, pick up the wireless throttle and start running trains. I understand that it's not going to be quite that simple, but how close to that is the system?
2. Technical support - when I call for help how good is it?
3. Expandability - can I start small and grow without having to dump parts that I started with?
4. Reliability - How well does the system work, especially the wireless?
5. How touchy is the system, that is can I install it myself and have it work even though some of my wiring connections may be less than perfect?

Enjoy
Paul

[Stevert]

kchronister, that's a great list to start things off. I'd like to add one more item:

6) Expandability: If your DCC needs grow, or if you want to add additional features, can you expand your current DCC system without having to replace any of the equipment (command stations, etc) that you already have?

[rrinker]

Perhaps if we keep it at "how do you define" and leave out discussions of specific systems, this can succeed. Armed with a full discussion of what are "must haves" "like to haves" and "don't cares", one can look at a chart such at the MR buyer's guide and make a decision.
Because quite frankly, even with the best of intentions, if we start talking about which specific system is 'best', this will quickly turn into a flame war.

I'll add a few other items for consideration:

1. Local usage - unless you are a true "lone wolf" modeler and don't interact with other locals and clubs, it can be very helpful to use the same system as the majority of those around you - if not for operating session items like using your throttle on their layout, then for having good local support and help while you get your system going.

2. Third party support - I mean elements specific to a system, since any compliant system SHOULD be able to access any compliant accessory decoder. I'm talking add-ons compatible with specific systems at points where there is no NMRA standard, such as at the throttle bus and command bus levels. Can you do ie signalling without being tied to one vendor?

3. Local availability - sort of goes with #1, if your LHS has a knowledgeable DCC department, and they sell and support primarily Brand A, shoudl you really buy Brand B or C for yourself?

--Randy

[selector]

As an IO Psych type, my interest would be in simple ergonomics. The human-machine interface must be intuitive and ergonomically sound. I think we would all agree that the range in these two dimensions is rather broad across the spectrum.

The aircraft industry went through this very early when they found that their cockpit feedback mechanisms were not serving the pilots well. Once they got their minds to the right way of designing the cockpit for the human, fewer pilots made fewer mistakes.

Personally, the tiny knobs on the DT400 work for me...I have small hands, but I know that others prefer larger ones. Maybe the manufacturers should offer a range of paddle types and sizes. Certainly the display on the DT400 leaves much to be desired. Sure, I know it now, but the learning curve is a real bi**h with Digitrax's ergonomics.

That is my [2c].

Thank-you to both you gentlemen for initiating this discussion. My compliments.

[Anonymous]

Joe,

Boy, you really are brave aren't you? It will be interesting to see if this can not turn into a flame fest as Randy suggests.....

I think best is a subjective decision. I am curious what sort of consensus we can come to on the point.

My best would be:

1. Wireless
2. Easy to use
3. Reliable

I'm not sure how one can discuss no.3 without flames flying.......So perhaps we should presume they all work well and amend my list to two.

Joe, its your move........This should be fun

[fwright]

Thanks Joe

This is exactly what I wanted the Buyer's Guide to be - what is the best DCC system to buy given one's personal circumstances. Some of the criteria has already been mentioned by others. I especially liked kchronister's criteria - except that I'm not sure what a CTC capability is. Other criteria I might add:

total cost for a realistic configuration - or at least include the costs for each of the components to get to a wireless or tethered plus costs for each additional operator/locomotive.

scalability - not important for me as a lone wolf, but certainly for most others. The Buyer's Guide covered this somewhat - # of throttles, decoders, power before you have to upgrade components or expand. There may be more to this I don't know.

I respectfully disagree with Randy, I do need specifics about each system. Otherwise, I'm back to the inadequate comparison chart. The problem, as you pointed out Joe, is that most folks have only experience with one particular system, and most of the rest is "I heard" type of thing about other systems. I hope very much that posters will keep their comments specific and based on facts or first-hand experience; that by doing this we can avoid the flame wars Randy fears.

yours in learning about DCC
Fred Wright

[Anonymous]

Just pick out which Digitrax unit you want and the search is over. NEXT

[jfugate]

TOPIC THIS POST: How do you define "BEST" ?

When people post the question, "What the best DCC system to get?" what are they really asking?

If it was just a matter of best being what's cheapest, then that's simple math, so that's probably not the question.

If I could restate the question simply, I would say it would be more like this:

What DCC system has the most functionality for the least cost?

In other words, it can cost more if I get more.

Also, the question might be restated as:

"Which DCC features must I insist on regardless of cost, and which DCC features can I do without and thus save some money?"

In other words, can someone rank the DCC features for me, and tell me what systems have the important ones?

The problem, of course, is DCC feature ranking is highly subjective. And some important considerations may not even be features at all.

So let's attack the question of "best" by sticking to considerations and features without regard to specific systems at first. Then we'll embark on comparing various systems to our ranked list of features and considerations.

TOPIC NEXT POST: Important DCC considerations that are not system features

[bikerraypa]

Thanks, Mr. Fugate. This is exactly the kind of thread I've been looking for. Beyond basic information (type of throttle, ability to utilize sound, etc.), a lot of questions come to mind that I can't really find the answers for by reading manufacturer's websites. Things like, how much space will it take, how hot does it get, how many "accessories" do I have to shell out for to take advantage of the features, etc.

Again, thanks. I'm really looking forward to this thread!

Ray

[pcarrell]

I'm all ears.

As many of you know, I'm moving very soon. I will be wanting to upgrade as I rebuild.

I've been out of the "whats new in DCC" loop just long enough to really screw up, so this is perfect.

You ALL have my undivided attention.

[jfugate]

TOPIC THIS POST: Important DCC considerations that are not system features

You can look at a feature comparison matrix all day long and you typically won't find these items listed. About the only way you will get a definitive answer on these questions will be to talk to others who have the system and have used it for some time. [2+ years]


Practical considerations

What's available locally for this system?
Is the system used by other modelers or clubs in your area? This can be important because there's nothing like first-hand advice when you get an issue. Also, if you are in line with what many of the other modelers in your area own, then when you visit each other's layouts, everyone can bring their throttles. A great way to save money and to immediately feel comfortable running the trains. If you don't know the answer to this question, then before you buy a system find out!

Does the LHS carry it?
If the local hobby shop carries the DCC system, all the better. This makes it easy to get parts, advice on usage, and so on.

If the LHS doesn't carry it, then when you order the system, do you take delivery right away or does it get back ordered? It can be really annoying if when you are finally ready to order the system, you have to wait weeks or even months before you see anything. The hobby is just small enough that DCC manufacturers don't always have some system parts in stock, but instead wait until they get a critical mass of orders and then they'll take advantage of an economy of scale to fill the backlogged orders. The best thing here to do is to email or call the manufacturer and ask them what their typical order turnaround is for a new system order.


Ease of use, reliability, and support

How easy is the system to use?
This is one you won't see on anyone's feature matrix. It can be pretty subjective, but as a professional software developer who has been in the business for nearly 30 years, let me define it the way I would define it:

"How easy is it to just guess how to do something by looking at the command unit, and not using the manual?"

The easiest way to test this is to use the one I like to try: making a lashup of diesel locos (a consist to use DCC terminolgy).

Just look at the command unit, and now without checking the manual, can you figure out how you would make the consist? What if you wanted to later add or drop a loco from the consist, can you guess how you would do it just by looking at the command unit?

This one simple test will tell you a lot about ease of use, or "user friendliness" as it's called in the computer software world.


How reliable is the system?
To me, this really gets to the heart of the "best system" question. The system can have gazillions of cool features, be super easy to use, but if it's not reliable, I hardly would call it the "best".

About the only way you will get a good answer to this question is to ask people who have the system and who have used it regularly for a while. I say the person needs to have used the system for at least two years before you will get a good sense of how a system performs in this area.

A good place to get this kind of information if there are no local modelers who regularly use the system is to go online and watch the support forums for each system. What kinds of problems are typically discussed on the support forums for each system? You'll learn a lot if you even lurk for a week or two.

Does the system have quirks? This is yet another way to approach the reliablity/ease-of-use question. It might be reliable, but it also might have some unexpected normal behavior that can get annoying. This needs to be called out!


TOPIC NEXT POST: Let's rank the systems against these considerations

[jeffshultz]

Although I haven't told my wife this, I'll probably be shopping for a new system starting in about 6 months. My Prodigy system (used, Ebay, $99), while a nice introduction to DCC, has absolutely no future - not even it's replacement is compatible with it.

And by then I'm hoping my layout will be large enough that I'll start needing wireless.

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeffshultz

Although I haven't told my wife this, I'll probably be shopping for a new system starting in about 6 months.

Jeff:

Mum's the word. [:-^]

[Stevert]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate
"How easy is it to just guess how to do something by looking at the command unit, and not using the manual?"

I disagree with this one.

Have you ever tried to "steer" an airplane on the ground? You don't use the "steering wheel", you use the rudder pedals.

But I'd bet that the vast majority of folks, their first time in the cockpit, would try using that "steering wheel" because it looks similar to what they've always seen ground vehicles steered with.

Sometimes ya just gotta RTFM!

Steve

[jfugate]

Steve:

No problem, it's fine to disagree with me, and your example is a good one.

However, I still maintain the less you have to keep the manual handy, the more user friendly the system is.

Since I do software design for a living, here's a list of user friendly questions that apply pretty well to DCC system interfaces too. This list is from "Don't Make Me Think - A Common Sense Approach to Web Usability":

- Where should I begin?
- Where did they put ____ ?
- What are the most important things on this [DCC command unit]?
- Why did they call it that?

The consisting question provides a concrete use case for you to try where you have to actually go through these questions as you figure out how to do it.

I would also argue that the reason the airplane and the automobile user interfaces behave differently is because they both appeared at roughly the same time and each evolved their own convention. Had the automobile been well entrenched for 30 years before the airplane, the wheel on an airplane would steer the airplane as expected when on the ground.

So it's possible, when starting at the beginning to design a system to make things simpler and more obvious, and that's what we're looking to assess here as we consider the various DCC systems.

[grayfox1119]

Jeff, you hit at what I consider a key point. New people into DCC and model RR'g, tend to get a basic system, low in cost, to "get their feet wet". Then, after they get the "feel" of how DCC works, and as their layout grows as well as their knowledge, they tend to look for a better system, one with more features, maybe more user friendly and/or ergonomic, and maybe more reliable to boot.
I see three levels of purchases: the basic level ( level 1 ) for people just getting started and with low budget, intermediate level (level 2 ) for those who have used DCC systems, and want to upgrade for many various reasons, and experienced level ( level 3 ), for those who have years of DCC knowledge and use under their belt. These folks know what they want/need for features, are willing to pay more to get more. Of course there will always be the exceptions, those who will jump right to level 3, with very little DCC experience, have the money to spend ( or think they do) , and are willing to learn on the go because they don't want to waste money upgrading two or three times.
Excellent topic Joe, and with Christmas just around the corner, many people are looking at DCC systems and saying: Digitrax? NCE? Lentz? Hmmmmmmm.

Great timing Joe

[grayfox1119]

Joe, and excellent example of what vendors have/had to do because people just hate to read manuals, is the installation color coded 11 x 17 sheet that DELL & other PC vendors include with every new PC shipped. To me, one look at the cable and the connector and I know where things go, but I have worked in electronics since the days of Vacuum tubes ( 1956 ). Most people really need all the help they can get. I agree with you on Common Sense Approach....it works....end of story !!!

[jfugate]

SIDEBAR TOPIC: Posting rules around system recommendations in this clinic

In order to minimize the system flame wars, and to keep this topic as useful as possible for people, let me suggest some basic rules around recommending certain systems.

1. Don't recommend a system unless you actually own it (or your club owns it) and you have used it regularly for at least 2 years.

2. If you recommend a system, please list *your* top three reasons why you went with that system, and *also* list at least 2 shortcomings, quirks, or wish list improvements you have discovered from owning the system. Hype is not allowed, be as factual and fair as possible in your comments.

Also, let me say the general format I'm going to use for my own system comments will be:

1. Discuss a category of evaluation criteria
2. Rank systems against that criteria
3. List more criteria
4. Rank systems against the additional criteria ...

.... etc.

Along the way, I'll elicit your comments on various systems, but make sure it's a system you have owned for at least 2 years, and try to always keep it balanced, listing both good and (at least) 2 things on your wish list for improvements. Quirks or shortcomings work also to balance your comments.

[NZRMac]

QUOTE: Originally posted by On30Shay

Just pick out which Digitrax unit you want and the search is over. NEXT

Great suggestion about some RULES Joe.

I have Lenz
1. Local dealer (advise on the phone, invited to run my loco's )

2. Price, although I can import cheaper.

3. Expandability, I first bought the Lenz Compact (basic) I now have a the Set 100 which allows the Compact to plug in.

4. Warranty!! Who can beat 10 yrs.

5 Wireless, some people scoff at a cordless phone, but once you know which buttons to push it's obvious and easy.

6. Future proof, the hardware is there for bidirectional comms tec.

[tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup][tup] Ken.

[selector]

I hate to pee in the pickles, (yeah, that again), but I feel excluded from this topic because I do not have two years of use with my system.

It is suggested that I refrain from recommending a system, but does not preclude me from criticizing it. Accordingly, many of us will slant the discussion, if we are to participate at all, by pointing out deficiencies, but not offering positive comments that might lead to a thumbs-up overall. If my system works for me, and is reliable, functional, utile, and came at a low cost RELATIVE TO OTHERS TO WHICH I COMPARED IT...why would I be precluded from offering my opinion just because I have not used it for two years? This seems a bit arbitrary, and effectively disenfranchises me.

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector

...why would I be precluded from offering my opinion just because I have not used it for two years? This seems a bit arbitrary, and effectively disenfranchises me.

Well, how long have you used your system, and how much have you used it?

I'm not trying to be exclusive -- I'm trying to be practical. I chose 2 years because that's generally enough time for you to encounter some issues (lets the electronics burn in), plus you are finally beyond the "new system buzz" and can probably tell us a few system gotchas you've experienced.

But if you've used your system for less that 2 years, the forum police won't come after you if you happen to post your experiences. [swg]

If you have owned your system for less than 2 years, please be up front about it and tell us how long you've had it -- and then we can take your experience (or lack thereof) in context.

Some system versions, like the NCE PowerCab, haven't even been on the market for 2 years, but I hasten to add that if anyone has one of these brand new models, we'd all still like to hear what you think.

[Anonymous]

Ok, following the rules: I suggest Digitrax zephyr for a beginner with a small/medium size layout.

Good:
1. Price, I got my zephyr for $160. Not bad at all in my opinion
2. Expandibility, The zephyr is compatible with all digitrax components, so you can start with a basic zephyr system and expand it as your layout expands.
3. Loconet, I love loconet. There is no complex wiring between DCC components, just run some 6 conductor phone cord between the loconet ports and thats it. Plus with the loconet system you can connect to a computer for programming and operations.
4. Customer Service, I had a problem with the zephyr a couple months ago, I sent it to digitrax and they fixed it and sent it back within 2 weeks, for free!

Bad:
1. Power, the zephyr is a small system putting out only 2.5 amps. This is enough to run maybe 5 or 6 locomotives. You can add boosters to increase power output, but boosters arent free.
2. Sound Capability, The zephyr comes with only functions 0-9. The new sound engines use 12 functions. You can add a DT400 throttle with all the functions, but a DT400 costs almost as much as the zephyr

[selector]

Thank-you, Joe.

If we really want the most comprehensive assessment to offer those who would use this topic as an aid in deciding which system to purchase (our intended beneficiaries if I understand it), then we need the largest sample of users possible...otherwise what we will offer will have poor relation to what the manufacturers actually offer. There are too few responders here who have actually used more than one system, so all you will get is anecdotal information anyway. This is basic sampling theory.[:)]

[NZRMac]

oops I missed that bit about 2 yrs, had mine I yr.

The only thing I'd like on the Lenz is a playable whistle, which Digitrax is coming out with.

Can't think of a single thing I don't like.

Ken.

[Don Gibson]

GUISEPPI:
Rather than 'What's the best' I'd prefer tto hear the Voice of experience LIST
thing's - in order of importance -

Thing's I would like to be included would be 2 vs 4 digit addresses - is it really important? Short circuit protection - sensitivities? RF control - range vs obsticles? Speed steps? - I've Oftened wondered why a few speed steps with realistic momentum and decay wouln't be preferable to 128 or so steps. Diesel loco's have much less. Another example is this 99 cab's. WHO in heck is goint to buy 99 cabs?- or need 999 addresses? MUing consist's I can see.

I guess I would like to hear what is most important if you were starting over, or designing a system, and why?. Number's are too often a marketing game.( "Oh, 256 speed step's must be TWICE as good as 128") Sure.

Now go FOR IT. From you there'll be no wrong answer's..

[rrinker]

Since I was around and participating on the Compuserve Trainnet forum (still around on the web today!) back when the inital discussions for an NMRA standard command control system were taking palce, allow me to post what I recall about the speed steps issue. Those behind the Lenz approach (similar but not identical to the actual DC specifications we have today) were constantly harping on the idea that 'real diesels' only have 8 speed steps, why should we need more than 14? The best answer is "momentum doesn't scale". Operating a real locomotive is a balancing act between the momentum of the train and gravity and friction. You don't need infinitely variabe control because of how long it takes a minor change to be felt by the entire train. You can't "floor it" unless you want to break knuckles and/or damage cargo. And a slight change in applied power might result in a 1mph speed change - after half a dozen miles! We don't have this luxury with our models. Even with high efficiency motors and hefty flywheels, our models won't roll for miles with the power off. 14 steps just doesn't cut it - you can try it for yourself, program a decoder for 14 speed steps and set your system up to send only 14 speed steps. Very rough control, like a cheap DC power pack. 28 is nearly acceptable. 128 is nearly continuously variable, with no 'step' action, assuming you don't have wierd values for start, mid, and top CVs and/or speed tables (some decoders work with speed tables at 128 steps, not just 14/28). 256 would be overkill - there's so little change between steps with 128 that it isn't necessary (and would require an entire extra byte of data!) to go to 256 or more. 128 is kind of a 'sweet spot'
And for those that don't like diseasles... steam locos ARE nearly continuously variable! The throttles have lots of 'notches' in the sector plates, as does (usually) the Johnson bar for setting the cutoff. So 14 speed steps wouldn't be anything like a real steam loco!
Another part of the argument went to how people run their layouts. At the time, far more Europeans just 'ran the trains' compared to a largr percentage of US modelers who ran some for of prototypical operation. This may not be true today, but that was one of the elemtns presented back then. 14 steps was plenty of you were just going to pull the train out of the station and let it roll. Try making smooth pickups and setouts with a road switcher on a way freight with only 14 steps though. There just aren't enough distinct speeds to allow a good speed curve to be programmed in. With 28 you have a decent chance of setting a few 'minor' steps at the low end to allow control for switching, and opening up on the top end for the mainline haul. With 128SS and setting for top, mid, and start, you can set up a perfect handling loco, plenty of control at the low end for the switching maneuvers, and fast pickup once the highball is given.

--Randy

[Anonymous]

If you have two years experience with the system, it's already old, Whats the best in newer systems is what we are asking

[selector]

How true. My new SEB has been on the shelf for how many years now...I don't know, but that is the entire basis of my DCC experience. Tom has EZ-Command, and that is the basis of his. Randy had the Zephyr or the Super Chief, I forget, and someone else, also a first-timer, is a year-long veteran of his NEC whatever. Surely their input, whether positive, neutral, or negative, can be shared to form a consensus about a given model. It would be different if 60 users of each type gave input, but that won't happen for a very long time, I'm betting.

Okay, I'll shut the cake hole. [:I][:)]