FORUM CLINIC: Picking the best DCC system

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

More "which DCC system?" questions on the forum lately, so time to resurrect this puppy again. [swg]

Until there is a DCC system in every house (and a chicken in every pot) this one will live on!

[jfugate]

I just recently bought an NCE PowerCab system to use for offline loco programming.

So I now either own or have owned Lenz, EasyDCC, and now NCE. And so far, I've liked each one better than the last. We'll see on the new NCE.

I am finding the EasyDCC "upper limit" of 8 distinct throttle channels to be an issue and given the vast improvements of NCE's radio reception, plus the $200+ price of EasyDCC's new radio throttles ... I see NCE pulling out front as the radio system I would recommend.

The other issue with EasyDCC is the stationary programming panel. In the days before ops mode programming on the main became popular, this made sense. But now mobile decoder programming on the main with a true wireless system (never need to plug in) narrows you down to just one system: NCE.

I think Zimo does this as well, but that's a cadillac system based on using a PC as the core -- while really cool for flexibility, you pay for that luxury with Zimo. Plus the Zimo system has little penetratrion so far in the US market, which could make support somewhat tough. You can find lots of US NCE users online and if you're lucky, you might even have a few NCE users local to you.

NCE doesn't have the shared channel issue after 8 throttles that EasyDCC has. Once you start sharing channels on EasyDCC, you start getting response delays when you work the throttle, which can be annoying if you want to play the whistle or do some switching. Most EasyDCC users I know who need more than 8 throttles have 5 dedicated channel throttles and the rest of the throttles share 3 channels.

I currently use EasyDCC, but the system is now 6 years old and needing some hardware replacement in both throttles and possibly eventually moving to the newer command station. I'm giving strong consideration to moving to NCE wireless, since I can do that in stages where for a time, I use my current EasyDCC throttles with the NCE system.

I do know EasyDCC's radio reception for the most part has been rock solid, and NCE's radio reception in the past has been iffy. Word is, however, NCE's new and improved receiver and half-wave throttle antenna has completely solved the issue.

Just some of the latest in DCC-land for me.

[jfugate]

I've noticed several "starter DCC system" posts so I thought I would update this thread with my latest thinking in this area.

LEARNING DCC ON THE CHEAP
If you check out ebay, you can buy a Bachmann DCC system for about $50. If you are really strapped for cash, and are not sure what DCC system to buy, I think getting a Bachmann system for $50 is a great education into things DCC.

You can't do a lot with a Bachmann system, but for 50 bucks it will get you started and allow you to put some decoders into your locos.

Plan on outgrowing the Bachmann system and getting something else later. But you will learn some of the DCC basics with a Bachmann system and then later you can sell it on ebay and get some of your 50 bucks back -- and you will be knowledgeable enough in things DCC to understand what you really want out of your *real* DCC system.

And while learning DCC with your Bachmann system, you can be saving up for your real system.

NCE POWERCAB -- STATE-OF-THE-ART STARTER DCC SYSTEM
NCE has really scored a home run with their new Powercab starter DCC system. It uses a walkaround command station form factor, and is completely upgradeable to their full Powerhouse Pro system later.

You get a lot of system for a mere $140. The other starter system in this price bracket is the Digitrax Zephyr system, but in my option, the Zephyr now uses a rather dated powerpack form factor. The NCE system uses a walkaround form factor, which makes a lot more sense given the direction of DCC these days.

It used to be you programmed decoders using a stationary programming track, so having a stationary command station in a powerpack form factor made a lot of sense. You could always expand beyond this with walkaround throttles, and use the stationary command station to program decoders on the programming track (Service Mode programming).

But with nearly all decoders now supporting programming on the main (Ops Mode programming), having a handheld command station in a walkaround form factor makes a lot of sense. You can literally go anywhere on your layout and program your locos. You no longer have to drag the loco back to the programming track to program CVs.

NCE's PowerCab system even allows changing decoder addresses on the main, so you hardly ever need use the programming track ever again.

A PERSONAL NOTE ON DCC SYSTEMS
My EasyDCC system also uses a stationary command station form factor, and I'm in the need of upgrading my wireless throttles now as my system ages (it's now 6 years old).

With NCE's release of the PowerCab system, I've taken another look at NCE and am giving serious consideration to moving to NCE so I can have the wireless handheld command station option. I can see more and more cases where I would like to just go find a loco on my 1100 square foot layout and program it right there -- and not have to keep dragging locos back to the programming track.

My stationary command station prevents me from doing this. And with the advent of sound decoders and fancier decoder functions, I'm getting more interested in perhaps some simple programming on the main while operating.

As a result, I've seen the stationary command station form factor as a real hindrance to the direction DCC is going and see NCE's PowerCab starter system as a stroke of genious as to the ideal form factor for a DCC system. Enough so that I'm even considering moving to NCE as my DCC system of choice.

[jfugate]

Just finding this Forum Clinic again and giving it a bump.

[rghammill]

I'm just getting back into modeling, and I know I will be moving to DCC in the future, so this is a great help.

However, I'm hoping to go in a slightly different direction in the short term so I can spend as little as possible for a low-end stop gap until I can afford the better DCC systems (and allow a few more years of devlopment.

The 'layout' I'm setting up is primarily for my 3-year old daughter and myself because she likes to run the trains. It's a couple of loops, and any more complicated running will be experiments and one train at a time. So I don't need a full blown DCC system yet, but I do want to play around with some of the capabilities.

What I do need (or really want) is sound, and extra running features and all would be nice.

So I'm hoping that QSI releases their after market decoder very soon because I'd like to start with with their Quantum Engineer controller. It's not DCC, it just lets you do lots of DCC-like things with DC. And it's only $60 (list).

I only have 7 locomotives right now that I need decoders for, and the QSI ones fully support DCC, and are software upgradable (their older generation requires a new chip, but that new chip is software upgradable).

One of the other major benefits is that I can let my daughter run the locomotives with a much lower risk of damage because while the train is running the reverse switch won't reverse the loco. It blows the horn instead. Only when the train is stopped does the reverse switch reverse the locomotive. Right now, of course, she enjoys flipping it regularly.

Anyway, for those just toying with the idea right now, I think this might be a good option. It only works with the QSI decoders, but they seem to be pretty good. Expecially because from what I'm seeing, there are a lot of new developments in the DCC arena and I think we'll see some really interesting systems in the next couple of years.

Randy

[jfugate]

And for those in the market for a DCC system, here's this thread resurrected ...

[jfugate]

Given the recent threads on buying DCC systems, here's this thread brought back from outer mongolia.

[CrazyDiamond]

Yes I gotta re-read this one soon.  Did Zimo eventually get reviewed?

[jfugate]

Yes I gotta re-read this one soon.  Did Zimo eventually get reviewed?

No, it did not. I've got their manuals and having read through them it's pretty clear their system is essentially a specialized PC made to run DCC. The big advantage of this approach is almost everything is in software, which makes the Zimo system far more easily upgradable than any other DCC system on the market. It also makes Zimo far more expensive than any DCC system on the market -- so if you have the bucks, Zimo is an option worth looking into.

For people looking for a good starter system under $200, Zimo isn't it, unfortunately. A Zimo starter set is over $700.

The other thing with Zimo is its user interface has a characteristic European feel, which is somewhat reminiscent of Lenz. The interface is European "electronic tech" in feel with lots of clever buttons and features to do things, but it's all kind of overwhelming. My operators prefer simple and obvious -- give them a big throttle knob, forward and reverse, a normal 0-9 keypad for entering loco addresses and pressing a few function keys and they're happy. Forget special secret meaning "*", "#" or "shift" keys. The NCE knobby throttles are a great example of this kind of blatently obvious interface design. The NCE throttles have two clearly labeled buttons "Select loco" and "horn", plus "FWD" and "REV". Now how much more obvious can you get than this?

Zimo goes *way* beyond this in their throttles, with lots of clever techy labels on their multi-function buttons since they've got so many features. Just reading the manual to figure all this out will make your head spin.

So Zimo is cool and very powerful, but their user interface is not something you can teach your new operators in a few  minutes. Their system is the Cadillac of the DCC market, and priced accordingly.

[ft-fan]

I've just finished reading through this thread for the first time. Maybe the next time through, it will take less than 2 days! LOL

I appreciate the effort that has gone into this, the research and time spent writing and editing. The reviews on consisting/MU'ing were very helpful. However, they have been limited to basic low-end starter sets. I have looked at these sets, but felt that I wanted to jump right to a full-blown system instead. Is it possible for anyone who has used more advanced systems, like the Digitrax Chief or Super Chief, or the NCE Power-cab, to do the same kind of review of ease-of-use studies? I would like to see how easy it is to use the Digitrax DT400R or DT4R or the throttle for the NCE Power Cab (Joe's potentially new favorite :-)  ).

Also, Joe mentioned the form factor and this is new to me. I understand the sit-on-a-table-somewhere form factor, what is a walkaround form factor? Does each throttle have its own command station built into it? How does this all hook together? What impact does this wiring have on the wiring which needs to be done? I have to admit I have not read anything on the kind of bus that NCE uses, I am most familiar with LocoNet and think it is pretty cool and straight-forward.

Thanks for all this great information.

FT

[modelmaker51]

The NCE ProCab does allow you to unplug the throttle and move to another station and plug back in and resume control. The difference is that the ProCab is also the command station, which means you can also program and set CVs anywhere on the layout as well. Joe's term "walkaround form factor" is just another way of saying "mobile command station".

There's nothing mysterious about the wiring for the NCE system, it's just a daisy-chain of 6-conductor RG-12 telephone cable to each plug-in station. The power buss is the same as you would have for any system.

NCE does also have "utility throttles" or cabs that can control a couple of trains, but can't do the programing.

[tstage]

The NCE ProCab does allow you to unplug the throttle and move to another station and plug back in and resume control. The difference is that the ProCab is also the command station, which means you can also program and set CVs anywhere on the layout as well. Joe's term "walkaround form factor" is just another way of saying "mobile command station".

There's nothing mysterious about the wiring for the NCE system, it's just a daisy-chain of 6-conductor RG-12 telephone cable to each plug-in station. The power buss is the same as you would have for any system.

NCE does also have "utility throttles" or cabs that can control a couple of trains, but can't do the programing.

Actually, Jay, you are mostly right.  The NCE Pro Cab can be unplugged and plugged.  But it must and can only do that when used with the Powerhouse Pro command station.  The Pro Cab is only an "intelligent" throttle.  The Powerhouse Pro command station houses the brains and booster.

On the other hand, the NCE Power Cab is the one that is the command station, throttle, and booster all rolled up into one.  If you disconnect the Power Cab from the power panel, it will shut down the entire system.

However, with the advent of the Smart Booster, the Power Cab can now become a full-fledged walkaround system and be plugged and unplugged into/from either the Smart Booster or PCP (power) panel - without shutting down your layout.

Tom

[jfugate]

Looks like it's time to give this thread a bump, since several people have been looking into purchasing a system.

[MOJAX]

Thanks to everyone for taking their time responding on this topic. For me it has been very informative and entertaining! It’s been 30 + years since I was involved in model railroading and am just now able to get back into it.  Have things changed! Anyway I was leaning toward the MRC (had several MRC throttle packs….back in the day) but now I’m again undecided as this thread has really made me aware of the options available out there.

Thank you all!!!!

MO

[rghammill]

MRC Prodigy

I just got one for Christmas, and it will be a while before I get it up and running, but I wanted to add some information.

I've been considering returning it for the NCE Powercab, particularly due to a few of the shortcomings of the system. However, I like the knob instead of the dial, and I like the information that's presented on the screen versus the NCE.

The two major issues that I felt the system have are being addressed. The wireless throttles are being released soon, and I spoke to MRC and they said they also have a computer interface in the works.

So the end result for me is that I'm going to keep the MRC for now. I really like the design of the controllers, and it sounds like they are putting together a comprehensive system.

Randy 

 

 

 

[jfugate]

Yes, we will really need to keep an eye on the MRC developments, since if they add wireless and a computer interface, that will put their system(s) well into the ranks of the big four (Digitrax, NCE, Lenz, and EasyDCC) systems.

Now if MRC could just get their decoder issues solved ... their decoders tend to fail quickly, unfortunately. But their DCC systems seem to be as well built as any, just kind of trainset/4x8 layout level in their feature set. 

[jwils1]

We don't hear a lot about Lenz on this forum.  It's mostly Digitrax and NCE that are discussed.  Although there has been some good info on Lenz on this thread.

I use the Lenz Set 100 (LH100 throttle) and it's a terrific system for me.  As far as this forum goes, I think its DCC's best kept secret.  Much of this thread has been about intuitive throttles and consisting.  I'd like to discuss these two points, plus a couple of others.

I think too much is being stressed about the need to just pick up a throttle and figure out what to do without the manual.  This may be important to Joe for his operation with many operators (apparently they're not all the same guys every time).  But for the typical modeler, operating alone, or maybe with one other person, this is not a very big deal.

Common tasks that you do frequently, and some that you do just occasionally, are just not that hard to remember on the Lenz LH100.  This is a wonderful throttle and very easy to use.  Fairly large buttons that are easy to use and a nice informative display.  It has push button speed control but I've learned to really like that.

Here are the three Lenz throttles.

On the LH100 consisting is a snap.  Once a loco is part of a consist the address is preceded by the letter "m" instead of "E" so you can always tell if a loco is part of a consist.  You can operate speed and direction from any of the loco addresses or the consist address.  You can quickly toggle with one key to any of the locos to operate its light and sound functions.  And it's very easy to delete any of the locos.

For me, this works great as I have a couple of sound box cars that I run with some of my non-sound locos.  I simply consist the box car to the loco (or locos), turn on the light of the lead loco and then run the speed and direction of the consist from the box car address, with all of the sound functions available for use.

If you forget which locos are in a consist, simply call up the consist address, or any loco in the consist, then with one key toggle thru the list of all locos that are included.

To run the consist in the other direction, just turn off one headlight and turn on the other.  Of course your forward movement will now show as reverse in your display but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to remember that.

They say that the LH90 is a great throttle (knob control) for just running trains and switching but I haven't tried it as I wanted wireless for my second throttle.  So I use the cordless phone option which really works well, and its shape is very comfortable to hold.

CVP also makes an excellent wireless, radio throttle for Lenz systems but it's a bit expensive.  But with that you can have knob control which many prefer. 

I really do think Lenz is a great system, fully upgradeable, good support and 10 year warranty.  So, what do I not like about it:

1. No routing for turnout control, just individual turnouts one at a time.  I think that they do have another device that does routes but I use my computer for that.
2. No back-lit display.
3. Every time I power up the system all of the sound locos and box cars turn on.  I have to then turn them off one at a time.  I don't know if this is unique to Lenz or occurs on all systems.

[jfugate]

Jerry:

Hey, thanks for your wonderful post on the Lenz system. Glad to see their system get some "air time". I had a Lenz system for 7 years and it served me well. And my best experiences with decoder warranties have been from Lenz, so they stand behind their stuff with a passion.

By the way, for those who are willing to wade through some rather long text posts, there's some really meaty discussions over on my web site at the moment about the various DCC systems and their pros and cons from the perspective of owners of these systems who are willing to bare all about their systems -- the good, bad, and the ugly.

To quote Jerry (who posted the nice Lenz post above), who posted on the discussion over there:

"I feel like I'm attending DCC System University on this thread. This is powerful and very useful stuff. Thanks."

If you'd like to go read this "DCC University thread" as Jerry calls it, just click here.

[NZRMac]

They say that the LH90 is a great throttle (knob control) for just running trains and switching but I haven't tried it as I wanted wireless for my second throttle. 

 I have a Set 100 and LH90 throttle and can say it is very good for running and switching, my 7yr old nephew handles all the buttons and knob with ease.

Ken.

[SD40-2]

I have had the MRC Prodigy advance for 2 half years.I almost bought the digitrax Zephry but opted for prodigy.I also used a friends digitrax and found it to be cumbersomb and unresponsive and limited.now maybe it wasnt set up right or i dont know what Im talking about,but i have another friend who sold his digitrax and went with prodigy.

Prodigy advanced good things

hand held lets you do everything from throw turnouts to program on main to read CV s and program Cvs.lets you switch locos with a button push.

has all the function buttons

does all the extras like consisting and  criuse control

Progigy bad things

need more power

wireless would be easier

no computer iterface

Tho I like the PA  I may switch to something else probly NCE .

[steffd]

We don't hear a lot about Lenz on this forum.  It's mostly Digitrax and NCE that are discussed.  Although there has been some good info on Lenz on this thread...

I agree,

I too have the Lenz set 100 along with several modules and accessory decoders and mainly use ESU decoders based on specs. The system is user friendly and the throttles are not cluttered, their complete package is extremely well engineered, solid and attractive as are their accessory modules and decoders for automation, monitoring and control. To prove my point, Lenz has not had the need for any major system design overhauls or appearance modification over the years, only firmware upgrades and the addition of accessory devices, although I would like to see them release a throttle like Roco's New Multimaus which is in fact compatible with the lenz. True, there is a bit of a learning curve just like any other high-tech device including your tv remote, but that's all part of the game.

Lenz has been involved with DCC since 1988 with its first system released which is the basis for today's DCC technology and in 1991 released the first Digital Plus System. Also, Lenz was an active contributor to the development of the NMRA's DCC Standards which allowed other companies to come into existence. In the end, there is no better or worse system, it just depends on your requirements. Most mid-range high-end systems today offer comparable features hence the DCC standards and It really becomes a personal preference based on ergonomics; ease of use, appearance, proprietary features and of course your budget.

Another rarely mentioned manufacturer is Zimo. They have been around since 1979 which is longer than any of the others Digital system manufacturer and actually are the true Pioneers to what we now call DCC but it also accommodates the Marklin Motorola Protocol. I had the MX1 and with and MX2 throttle. Now that's a system that requires a steep learning curve but it also has the most advanced features and capabilities of any system available on the market today but with system and accessory price tags to mach which is why I sold it.

Also important to note, I equally owned the Digitrax Big Boy System back in 1994-95 which was the second system Digitrax developed as a follow-up to their Initial challenger set.  Just my

This is my current System which is still being completed.

Previously owned Zimo Start Set.

Roco's New Multimaus.

 

 

[cpeterson]

Just reread this series of posts:

I own and have used digitrax systems for 5 years.  I just purchased the DT400 throttle and its ease of use increased substantially compared to earlier throttles.  I do agree that digitrax is not very intuitive in its use, the manual is a definite read, but after that it seems very easy.  I have only had to have one throttle worked on (DT300) after extended use, and for the 25 dollar fee which included the shipping, I found their customer service to be excellent (what else in your house can you get fixed for 25 dollars and someone else do the work).

[gp30]

 THanks Joe been reading bout dcc and this helped greatly

August

 

[jfugate]

 THanks Joe been reading bout dcc and this helped greatly

August

Always good to hear a fellow modeler has been helped. If you're into reading about DCC, here's a thread over on my personal web site that's got lots of friendly debate over systems ... check out DCC University.

The above discussion started out as some questions about MRC DCC and morphed into a long-running discussion about the pros and cons of the various DCC systems. It's now some 24 pages long and shows little signs of slowing down.

[jfugate]

Just a reminder that if you're up for a lot of reading on DCC system pros and cons, you can check out this thread. Here it is again brought back from the netherlands.

[cwclark]

    I believe if each of use describe how we like our individual DCC systems can greatly help others make a choice when purchasing a DCC system.

   I installed the Digitrax Super Chief system and it has it's pros and cons. I purchased it because everyone in my area uses the Digitrax system and if i want to run my trains on their layouts or vice versa, I was forced to buy the digitrax system because if I bought a different system I couldn't run trains on other layouts using my equipment. That was my biggest concern  and deciding factor when choosing a DCC system.

   The digitrax system is good in the respect that  I can run up to 120 locomotive addresses at one time and there are enough function addresses to run other equipment if I so incline to do so. I also like to run my equipment with 4 digit addresses which also is a positive feature with digitrax.

   The one thing I don't particularly like about Digitrax is that there are too many commands that have to be entered onto the keypad to make things work. For example: Just to run a locomotive, I have to first turn on the power button, then enter the +Y command, then select a locomotive, then enter the number of the locomotive on the key pad, then enter select locomotive again, then hit all the buttons to turn on or turn off any locomotive light functions  before I can turn on the knob for speed control. Shutting it down is just as involved. I believe the digitrax system could come up with a way to minumize all that "button pushing." But besides that and once you've gotton over the shock of how technical it is to set up, it's a well build and fun system for running a DCC layout.

 

[tschwarz]

Just pick out which Digitrax unit you want and the search is over. NEXT

 It's not quite that easy.  There are other very good systems out there.  I have used many system from Digitrax, NCE, EasyDCC, MRC and so on and have found good and bad points with all of them.  The one thing I don't like with Digitrax is having to constantly plug in to select a different locomotive.  I am not here to flame on system over the other I think what Joe is talking about is a good idea and I think he will compare all of the systems without bias.

 

[jktrains]

       I installed the Digitrax Super Chief system and it has it's pros and cons. I purchased it because everyone in my area uses the Digitrax system and if i want to run my trains on their layouts or vice versa, I was forced to buy the digitrax system because if I bought a different system I couldn't run trains on other layouts using my equipment. That was my biggest concern  and deciding factor when choosing a DCC system.   

Emphasis added.

cwclark,

Please explain the statement above about have you had to buy a Digitrax system because if you didn't you couldn't run your trains on other layouts.  Did you mean that you bought Digitrax so you had a throttle to take and use at other Digitrax layouts and vice versa? 

Because of the NMRA standards for DCC you should be able to run any decoder equipped loco on any DCC system regardless of the manufacturer of the decoder.  Granted, with some systems you may not have access to all the functions the decoder offers, but the loco should run. 

jktrains

[selector]

Chuck, with full deference, what you describe above is bizarre to me.  Perhaps there are differences between our two systems that I am not aware of, but my SEB is simply turn on, dial up the loco I want, click the encoder, and run the train.  If I want bell, hit F1, and so on.  What's all this power on and off, loco y or n? 

Sounds to me like you need to set up your throttle or base station.

-Crandell

[tschwarz]

Greg:


EasyDCC remains firm that command-station consists offer a lot, so they keep enhancing command station consisting with new features with each system upgrade.

My only criticism is EasyDCC also considers decoder-based consisting to be fraught with problems so they have hobbled their system's ability to manage decoder-based consists. This mindset once made sense -- but as you say, most decoders on the market now fully support decoder consisting, function mapping to consist addresses, etc. So EasyDCC's bias has become more of an narrow-minded anachronism. They need to wake up and realize decoder-based consists now offer a lot as well -- and quit hobbling their system's support of decoder-based consisting so much.

Fortunately, you can circumvent most of this by simply programming CV19 directly yourself, which is quite easy to do via DecoderPro. Since EasyDCC's support of command station consisting is so rich, I'm still a pretty happy camper as to my choice of DCC system.

Joe,

 The latest upgrade to the software for the EasyDCC system says that Advanced Consists are the preferred method for creating multi-unit locomotive consists so I am not sure were you are getting this idea that they don't like doing advanced consists unless you are still using the old software.  How are you implying that they have "hobbled" their system support of decoder-based consisting.  I would refer you to pages 66-73 in their new system documentation that talks all about the Advanced Consisting that they offer.

Just my humble $.02 worth.

Tom