FORUM CLINIC: Picking the best DCC system

[rrinker]

How about we take the chart as published in MR and fix the errors?

--Randy

[jnichols]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate

Jeff:

I'm game.

What features would you list?

Joe,

I think a lot of people don't even realize all the things that can be done with most of the systems, so I think a comprehensive list is in order. My biggest concern is the jargon everyone is using right now. When manufactures say "my system supports consisting", you and I both know that could mean a number of things, and I think a better explanation of what actually does support would help a great deal.

What systems are you most knowledgable with? Having only had the MRC PA for a couple of months hardly constitutes me as an authority, but I have had Digitrax systems for more than a few years now. I've also got experience with Lenz and the CVP Airwire system, although I'm not sure the Airwire system applies here. My only other claim to fame is a background with the MTH DCS system. Again, I'm not really sure this one should be included either.

The only problem I have is time, and the limited amount I can devote to this. Maybe we could colaborate via email and put the list together off the forum and then just post the results?

Let me know what you want to tackle, and what systems you feel more comfortable with. Also if you know a fellow forumite that might have experience with a system we don't, see if you can enlist their help as well.

Jeff

[jnichols]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrinker

How about we take the chart as published in MR and fix the errors?

--Randy

Randy,

While this is a place to start, I think we need to include some of the more advanced stuff for people looking at all the different variables. That list from MR is only a small snippet of a features list in my mind.

Jeff

[waltersrails]

don't know the best but i like bachmanns.

[jfugate]

I've owned Lenz and EasyDCC. I've also used NCE quite a bit, and read their manuals extensively.

I'd like to see some postings of what evaluation criteria people would like to see that weren't in the MR review.

That would give me an idea of how to start making the list. I agree that the details ought to be worked out offline via email, then the "draft" posted here for comment and review.

I also am very busy, just having signed a contract for a whole bunch of new video work, not to mention I'm deep into the production of my how-to series volume 4 on Scenery.

[jnichols]

Joe,

I can't believe I haven't checked out your website before now. There's a ton of great stuff there! I will contact you via your railfan.net email address if that's ok with you. I will be out of town the next couple of days on business, but I'll contact you when I return.

I look forward to this little project!

Jeff

[tomytuna]

Going to Springfield show on 28th...sole purpose is to purchase new DCC systems fof my layout...Hope to spend time with mfg's at the show and make finale decision...any last minute thoughts from anyone?

[spidge]

One of the mosy important factors for me is if a non RR visitor asks to run trains can I give them a throttle and some simple dirrections and off they go. More focus on the layout rather than the controls.

[Anonymous]

TomyT: If I was going to get face to face with the MFGERs, I think I would try to get some hands on with the throttles, and ask questions on ease of programing from an intuitive stand point . I think the other areas to address would be computer interfaceing for programing ( althought I read recently a comment that the amount of programming is really not that much of a time consuming process if you are actually running trains) decoders, and to create a library of locomotive programming.
I think the consisting examples here are a good measure of the ease of use of the different systems, if they have a "running demo" putting a consist together would give you a good idea of ease of use.
Have fun at Springfield, and do some good reaearch. Let us know your impressions.
Will

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jnichols

Joe,

I can't believe I haven't checked out your website before now. There's a ton of great stuff there! I will contact you via your railfan.net email address if that's ok with you. I will be out of town the next couple of days on business, but I'll contact you when I return.

I look forward to this little project!

Jeff

Jeff:

Glad you found my website helpful. Ideally, if you have some questions you would like me to answer, go join my forum and post your questions there. Then everyone who visits my website will benefit. [swg]

See:
http://model-trains-video.com/forum/index.php

[Anonymous]

Slightly off topic - I own an old " Onboard" system - 5 amp power supply - 2 tethered control pads - 4 loco thottles - all in excellent shape.
My 3 yrs. experience with the onboard system (in the 90's) was favorable except for the installation of the thottles in each loco - too much hacking and cutting.
Q.1 Is any of this onboard system salvageable to DCC?
Q.2 Can I get wiring specs for new "dcc - ready" locos so that I can wire the onboard thottles into these new locos? (Using existing circuit boards) I run N - HO and G locos.

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gogetherus
Q.1 Is any of this onboard system salvageable to DCC?
Q.2 Can I get wiring specs for new "dcc - ready" locos so that I can wire the onboard thottles into these new locos? (Using existing circuit boards) I run N - HO and G locos.

Q1: No you can't use Onboard anything with DCC. Totally different technology.

Q2: DCC ready locos simply use a standard plug and socket arrangement to make installing and removing decoders quick and easy. If you are into soldering your own plugs, yes you could wire an Onboard receiver to a DCC plug and then have plug and play Onboard.

DCC ready locos typically have a little extra room around the loco weight for a decoder, but your Onboard receivers are far larger than most decoders, so you will still be cutting and fitting I'm afraid.

Since you can get an NCE Powercab for $139 from Tony's Trains and your basic decoder is now down to $15 in quantity, I'm not sure why you would want to keep going with 10+ year old technology at this point. One of these days your Onboard system's going to give up the ghost, and then you'll *have* to switch if you still want command control with sound.

[rockythegoat]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate


I'd like to see some postings of what evaluation criteria people would like to see that weren't in the MR review. That would give me an idea of how to start making the list. I agree that the details ought to be worked out offline via email, then the "draft" posted here for comment and review.

Joe/Jeff:

In addition to what is on the System Comparison Table on Tony's Trains website, info I would find valuable:

1. List all systems available with pricing.

2. What will be needed to get to 5 amps capacity. I personally don't feel 2A is enough for anyone but a 4x8-er (Not that there's anything wrong with that!) and 10A appears to be for the large pike, as opposed to a medium (12 x 15) layout. IF THIS ASSUMPTION IS WRONG, please feel free to correct. I realize this can vary with double-heading, stationary decoders, etc.

3. Difference in decoder models / capabilities.

4. What decoders are available as "drop ins / plug ins" and for which models.

5. How much reading of the manual is needed to accomplish a task. Such as: Consisting; Advanced Consisting; Adding an engine; Deleting an engine; etc.

6. Support stationary decoders? If so, how may items can be added to a decoder and/or function.

7. Type of throttle control. (Slide, pushbutton, wheel, rotary knob).

8. Updating ease and how. (Software by owner; Software by Manuf; Chip by owner, etc)

9. Support sound?

10. How easy to expand. Amps; Throttles;

11. When would a booster be needed?

12. How long of a wire run is recommended for the various buses?

I appreciate the effort you have put into this topic and the fact that you guys are willing to tackle this. Thank you!

Len

[cmrproducts]

Len

While I see the need for the type of info you are asking for if someone was able to gather all of the info together and put into a book it would make WAR & PEACE seem like a 4 page club newsletter.

The DCC manufacturers are making changes daily and any info you would gather would be so out of date by the time you had it published it would not be relevant.

Now putting this on an internet site would also be just about the same way. The info still has to be written out and put on the site, so going back and editing it on a daily basis to keep it current would be a business in itself.

The best advice I can give you is to try and find local modelers that have systems up and running in your area. This way you can go over there and get some hands-on experience! This is the real teacher. Talk is mostly opinion and hype. But when you are actually operating a layout the BS stops right there!

This is what I do with my home layout. If someone is interested in seeing and operating a DCC layout first hand I invite them to come over and see one in action. Now I usually ask them to show up on a Thursday night OPs session. They can see the layout in operation with many operators and if we have problems that can also see that first hand.

Running a layout with only one or two people will not usually show system problems. It is only when you get a number of different experienced operators together; that you can then find out what happens when the operator begins pushing buttons the wrong way. How long it takes the owner to get things back up and running. The owner can also show you the easy way of acquiring an engine, making up of consists (MUing) and programming.

They have learned short cuts to doing all sorts of things on the layout and reading a book or a BLOG will really never be able to show you.

Just one persons opinion!

BOB H – Clarion, PA

[simon1966]

There are 10 or more DCC manufacturers, each offering more than one model, so I would guess there are about 25-30 different command stations on the market. Add in all the extra goodies like throttle options and Bob is right this turns into a huge task.

It is even greater when it comes to decoders. These are being introduced all the time and new locomotives are coming out all the time, so an up to date database of decoder comparison and installation examples would be a large undertaking for anyone. I think that the decoder makers would do themselves a huge favor if more of them kept instalation examples up to date on their own web sites.

[jfugate]

You know, the notion occurs to me ... maybe a simple "review" of the systems via video is in order.

You know, visit a prominent layout that's running the given system and show it in operation. A vicarious "try out each system" sort of thing. Ideally, show the system being used for some common tasks, and ask each owner to list a couple of issues they've had with the system as well as what they like about it.

Could be done, and would probably be far more valuable than a huge document comparing the systems. Since I do how-to videos for the hobby anyhow, maybe this would be a popular video topic. Of course the bad news is the video would be totally obsolete within a couple years. [B)]

[simon1966]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate
Of course the bad news is the video would be totally obsolete within a couple years. [B)]

Heck, if the timing were bad, it could be obsolete in a week! You can just imagine after serveral months of video production out comes a new DVD and a week later Digitrax announces their next generation DCC command station! Mind you, since there seems to be a huge lag between new product announcement and actual availabilty, so may be DVD obsolecence would not be a problem. [:D]

[rockythegoat]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cmrproducts


While I see the need for the type of info you are asking for if someone was able to gather all of the info together and put into a book it would make WAR & PEACE seem like a 4 page club newsletter.

Bob: I agree with your comment above and also about obsolence. What I was thinking would be helpful is just a one liner about the system. Such as:

ABC Pro System = Updates? - Yes; Software-User. Something along those lines.

The trying out all kinds of different systems advice, which I agree is good, can be tough for those of use who are "lone wolf modelers;" live in "the sticks;" or only have one predominant system in the area. For instance, all three of the above apply to me. The primary system in my area is Digitrax, but, to be honest, I don't like their "human interface" i.e. throttle. So, I rely heavily on what info I can glean from Forums and Manufacturer sites about other systems.

And another reason I wouldn't want a WAR AND PEACE-type of tome is out of respect for the time and effort guys on here would have to put in to complete the project. Tony's Trains and the MR tables are okay, just need a little bit of tweaking.

QUOTE: Originally posted by jfugate


You know, the notion occurs to me ... maybe a simple "review" of the systems via video is in order.

You know, visit a prominent layout that's running the given system and show it in operation. A vicarious "try out each system" sort of thing. Ideally, show the system being used for some common tasks, and ask each owner to list a couple of issues they've had with the system as well as what they like about it.

Could be done, and would probably be far more valuable than a huge document comparing the systems. Since I do how-to videos for the hobby anyhow, maybe this would be a popular video topic. Of course the bad news is the video would be totally obsolete within a couple years.

Perfect idea! I'd buy one!

Although, I agree the obsolesence issue is there.

Len

[tstage]

Joe,

I haven't panned back through the thread. Did you ever get around to reviewing the Zimo DCC system? I know that you were "ailing" when you were reading through the manual. Just curious...

Tom

[jfugate]

Tom:

I started looking at the Zimo system manual and developed some first impressions, then that's where I left it for the moment, thinking I'd get back to it later.

First impression: overwhelming. The system is powerful -- looks to do everything including clean the kitchen sink. But like many European-based systems, the interface mindset is more complex than I would like to see.

Zimo fails my "can I figure out where to start by just looking at the handheld" test, which means I will need to pour over the manual for quite a while to be able to "think Zimo".

I'll get back to a more detailed review later, but for now the very friendly NCE user interface still rules supreme, I believe.

[tstage]

Thanks, Joe. BTW, thank you for the write up you gave on the NCE system back in early December. That review was pretty much instrumental in my deciding on upgrading from my Bachmann EZ-Command to the PowerCab - particularly the part about it being "intuitively" put together. I was also glad to see TTE give it an enthusiastic initial review on their web site. Now, if it will just come in the mail...[sigh]...

Tom

[aluesch]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rockythegoat

Bob: I agree with your comment above and also about obsolence. What I was thinking would be helpful is just a one liner about the system. Such as:

ABC Pro System = Updates? - Yes; Software-User. Something along those lines.

Len

Hi Len.

ZIMO command stations = update yourself via Internet, no charge.
ZIMO throttles = update yourself via Internet, no charge.
ZIMO decoders = update yourself via Internet, no charge.

Sorry, it's a three-liner [:)]

Regards,
Art

Zimo Agency of North America
http://www.mrsonline.net/

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by aluesch
Hi Len.

ZIMO command stations = update yourself via Internet, no charge.
ZIMO throttles = update yourself via Internet, no charge.
ZIMO decoders = update yourself via Internet, no charge.

Sorry, it's a three-liner [:)]

Regards,
Art

Zimo Agency of North America
http://www.mrsonline.net/

One thing that appears really well thought out about the Zimo system is it's essentially a PC designed to do DCC.

This means updating your system will involve simply downloading software upgrades. Someone comes out with a killer new feature that makes the other guys have to redesign their hardware -- not Zimo. Once they update the system software, you can get the new feature without having buy any new hardware.

It also means a Zimo system will generally cost more than the other systems (think of the cost of a nice PC and you will get the idea).

But as they say, you get what you pay for.

Darn clever idea for a DCC system to make it this way -- it makes for an almost infinitely flexible system. [swg]

[jwar]

Joe.... Could you elaborate on the radio aspect. Are some better then others, not dropping control, user friendly, will radio work in a Screen plaster sided helix with the tranmitter several feet away, ect.
Last year I was going to go with CVP, but other family matters curtailed that. About to bite the bullet in a month or so.. Kind of like the two cab CVP, My Yards are over one another with drill tracks on opposite ends, and the radio for wondering around with. Comparing prices for three cabs, dont sound too bad.

Thanks in advance Joe...You are a touch of class....John

[jfugate]

jwar:

I've used NCE, EasyDCC, and Digitrax wireless.

Digitrax requires you to plug in to acquire the loco, then you can unplug and walk around. Personally, I don't like the need to plug in. The reason I go with wireless is so I don't have to install a throttle bus around the layout. Digitrax makes me install the throttle bus anyhow.

NCE has suffered from wireless reliabiltiy issues because it is a duplex system -- meaning the radio throttles both send and receive. Duplex is limited by law to much lower power levels and this has plagued NCE's wireless system. Recently, NCE has released a half wave antenna system (instead of quarter wave), which makes the antenna twice as long. The longer antenna improves wireless reception. NCE also redesigned their wireless receiver to improve its reliability. Word is these improvements eliminates most of NCE's reception issues.

EasyDCC has had rock solid reception for me -- however it's limited to 8 distinct channels so if you need more than 8 wireless throttles, you need to have throttles start sharing channels. You can have up to 7 throttles share each of the 8 channels, for a total of 56 throttles before you max out the system.

Since I haven't needed to move beyond 8 throttles yet, I've not taken the plunge to sharing channels. Throttle response delay has thus been minimal and not an issue. However, I have heard that sharing channels begins to introduce delays that can be annoying if you have a lot of throttles sharing the same channel.

I will need more than 8 throttle eventually, so my thought has been to have 5 of the throttles use dedicated channels, and have 3 of the channels have shared channel throttles. If you are running a through train (where some delay in response will be okay) then you use one of the clearly marked shared-channel throttles.

But if you are running a local where you will be switching a lot and need instant response, you select one of the 5 dedicated channel throttles.

Is this the kind of info you were looking for?

[jwar]

Thank you Joe.. yes it was iinfo I was curious about. What I really need to do is quit reading and just get it.and get on with it...LOL...Thanks again...John

[jfugate]

Glad to help, jwar.

There've been some questions lately about NCE versus Digitrax, so I'm posting something to get this thread bumped up again.

[rockythegoat]

QUOTE: [i]

Hi Len.

ZIMO command stations = update yourself via Internet, no charge.
ZIMO throttles = update yourself via Internet, no charge.
ZIMO decoders = update yourself via Internet, no charge.

Sorry, it's a three-liner [:)]

Regards,
Art

Zimo Agency of North America
http://www.mrsonline.net/

Art:

Very good! That's what I was talking about in my original post a couple few back.

Now just do it for all of the 10-12 items I referenced, and for every system, and have it done by Friday, and we're set!!!![:p][:D][:p][:D]

Again, to all you guys out there that are taking the time to research and post comparison/review "stuff" on here, a big Thank You! [tup] I know I've been helped greatly by this, and I'm sure others have too.

Len

[jfugate]

Just wanted to give a quick update on my first Lenz Gold decoder I acquired recently.

I reported on here the decoder would not program on the programming track, and that puzzled me (and Lenz) greatly. I finally sent the decoder to Lenz and Debbie Ames herself sent me a personal note back along with a brand new decoder, explaining that my decoder was bad and they were replacing it for free. So I am now the happy owner of a fully functioning Lenz Gold decoder. [swg]

Now that's service, and I thought Lenz should get some kudos for their excellent support!

[jfugate]

More "which DCC system?" questions on the forum lately, so time to resurrect this puppy again. [swg]