FORUM CLINIC: Picking the best DCC system

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by On30Shay

Exactly. That's why I haven't posted here again. If you've had it for two years, it's already way obsolete in the world of electronics. I've had my DIGITRAX ZEPHYR right at six months, and have already experienced a LOT of issues AND resolutions including some great customer service that no one will hear about here, because of the limitations put in this thread.

QUOTE: Originally posted by mbvan5

If you have two years experience with the system, it's already old, Whats the best in newer systems is what we are asking

Excellent, then tell us about it. Relax ... the 2 years limit is a guideline to get only those who have used their system a lot to post. If you have lots of good experience to tell us about and you've only had your system for a month, sheesh, for heaven sakes go ahead and post it. I promise I won't call the forum police on you ... [swg]

P.S. The problem with text email-like postings on the internet is you can't really see my attitude like you could if you were right here talking with me. My last remark about the forum police was in jest, with a great big wink and grin. If we were face-to-face, you would see that as far as I'm concerned if you have something useful to contribute to the discussion, we can show the rule-guy the door!

[jfugate]

People seem to be having a lot of heartburn over my suggested rules for posting to this thread, so I ask you to relax and realize any rules I suggest are just that ... suggestions. I rely on feedback from you to tell me if you think my suggestion stinks, which it appears several people feel about the 2 year thing. Not a problem, we'll just change it and make it official then.

Here's the new *suggested* posting guideline.

1. If you recommend a system, please tell us how long you have actually owned it (or your club owns it). Ideally, you have used your system regularly for at least 2 years, but if you have lots of good experience (both pluses and minuses) to share, then SHARE IT, no matter how long you have owned your system. But please do tell us how long you have had your system.

Okay, you guys who felt banned from posting before, I expect to see lots of postings listing what you have learned from your systems you've had for less than 2 years. Both good and not-so good experiences will balance your post, so make sure and share that too!

Waiting for your posts ... [:-^]

[jrbernier]

Joe,

I have had my Digitrax 'Chief' system since about 1997/1998? In all fairness, the system is 'over kill' for my layout. That said, I am a 'tech' type person and enjoy this stuff. After thinking about my purchase, I am glad that I went with a 'top of the product line' full feature system. No matter what manufacturer you choose, investing in something with 'growth' is not a bad idea.

o - I use the 'wireless' throttles(really like them for open houses).

o - I use the built-in 'fast clock' feature

o - I use the 'read back' capability for programming

o - I use the computer interface

None of these functions were at the top of my 'had to have' list when I made my purchasing decision, but purchasing something having the capability 'built in' was one of my better buying decisions!
My only other 'system' purchase was a Digitrax 'Zephyr' system that I got for 'dealer cost' when a LHS was shutting down. I thought that a $119 'investment' was good insurance if my 8 year old 'Chief' died in the near future.
I know 'cost' will always be a buying decision; but do not write off features that you feel are not useful right now. I spent about $100 more to get the 'top end' model. Over 8 years that is $12/year or about $1 per month.......

Jim Bernier

[jfugate]

TOPIC THIS POST: Continuing to rank the systems - Ease of use - Lenz

In this post we consider the Lenz system and its ease of use.

We'll use the Lenz Set 02 because it's priced as a starter system, which means many will consider it as their first entry into DCC. We also look at the Set 02 because it uses the more familiar knob on the handset for loco speed control. The Lenz LH90 is a mobile command station handset that allows you do some mobile decoder programming and to operate locomotives. Since programming on the main is becoming ever more popular, having a mobile command panel as part of a DCC system is a wise move.

Here's the Lenz LH90 handset.



Lenz uses an action - object paradigm (like NCE and EasyDCC, but unlike Digitrax), but with the very abbreviated keyboard even entering numbers requires multiple keystrokes. You won't get far with using this handset unless you first study the manual for a while. Here's a key section from the manual that is *required reading* before you can even get off the ground with using this system:


(click to enlarge)

So after looking at this keypad, how does one type the digit 9? Any guesses? Hardly what I call an intuitive user interface. It gets better ... it turns out pressing the number keys doesn't actually type numbers. Okay, back to the manual some more to figure out how to even enter digits.


(click to enlarge)

So you press the 4 to change the ones digit, the 3 to change the tens digit, and so on. Feels like what I have to do with my watch when I want to change the time. Fortunately, with my watch, I don't change the time *that* often.

To be fair, Lenz does have a keypad handheld with all the number keys, but it's missing a knob or slider of any kind for a throttle. You have to press the up or down arrow buttons to change loco speed. Here's a photo of both types of handhelds offered by Lenz:


(click to enlarge)

You either love the up / down buttons for speed control, or you hate it. For myself, give me a knob or slider any day for a throttle. The buttons just don't do it for me.


THE EASE-OF-USE TEST: MAKING A LOCO CONSIST
Lenz considers decoder consists to be the *only* kind of consist you can make with their Set 02 system. They call this type of consist an MU or "Multi-unit consists" in their manual. If you want to make a command station consist, you'll need their set 01, and look for what Lenz calls a "double header" in their manual. Lenz limits command station consists to a max of two locos.

Lenz: Setting up a consist
I first look for some obvious way to make a consist without referring to the manual. You won't get any help looking at the LH90 since it has a minimal number of buttons. Back to the manual, again.

STEPS FOR CREATING A CONSIST WITH LENZ
Here are the steps to create an MU consist (decoder-based only -- you can't make a command station consist with a Lenz Set 02).

1. Make sure the first loco to be consisted has been selected and stored in the loco stack in the handheld memory.

2. Select the second loco you want to add to the consist and add it to the loco stack in the handheld memory. Don't know how to do this? Time to check the manual ...

3. Go back to the first loco in the memory stack.

4. Press the shift key (the one with the up arrow and the plus on it), then press the O/M button to bring up a menu of operations you can perform. Keep pressing O/M until you see MU appear in the display (looks more like nu, but let's not get picky).

5. Enter an MU address, which must be between 01 and 99. Use the 4 key to alter the value of the ones digit, and the 3 key to alter the value of the tens digit.

6. Confirm the selected MU address by pressing the "A" key. The first locomotive you selected (the first loco in the internal memory stack of the handheld) is now part of the consist. Pay attention to the direction switch next to the display since that's what controls the loco's direction in the consist.

7. Scroll through the memory stack to the second loco you selected. Now repeat steps 4-6 to add the second loco to the consist ...

CONCLUSIONS
The Lenz LH90 gets a C- for ease-of-use. The set 01 is better (I'd give it a solid C), but the set 02 with the LH90 throttle takes dozens of non-intuitive keystrokes to even do basic loco addressing, much less to do consisting. Some things are very intuitive, like the use of the direction switch to control loco direction in the consist, but other things are a real pain -- like the need to go through all the button pushing gyrations done to add the first loco to a consist to likewise add each additional loco. Once you are in consisting mode, there is no reason why pressing a single button shouldn't add the next loco in the address stack to the consist.

The Lenz user interface *requires* keeping a manual handy (or making up a cheat sheet for yourself) since very few of the keystrokes needed to do anything are intuitive. Or do yourself a favor ... get a computer interface and do all your programming through your PC.

TOPIC NEXT POST: Continuing to rank the systems - Ease of use - Zimo

[jfugate]

Just some side notes since my first DCC system was a Lenz system purchased in late 1993.

I originally went with the Lenz system because I wanted a nice large "knobby" throttle, and at the time you could get some dandy knobby throttles for Lenz from a third party source.

One of the reasons I abandoned my original Lenz system in 2000 was because of the consisting limitations and the ease-of-use issues. Things have improved somewhat since that time, but not enough that I would consider going back to a Lenz system.

However, I absolutely *love* the Lenz boosters. I use exclusively Lenz boosters on my layout. They are reasonably priced and they work *great* with the 1156 light bulb short management (see my other DCC thread for more on this topic: http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=1&TOPIC_ID=36389 )

[jeffshultz]

Ah, I wondered where you got 3 Amp boosters from - I wasn't finding any less than 5 Amps in EasyDCC or Digitrax land.

[Anonymous]

Hello Joe - I just wanted to say thanks for doing this. I'm getting ready to purchase in the next month or two and have been doing a fair amount of research. What you've done here has been some of the most valuable information that I've gotten in terms of practical comparisons. I'm glad you're including the Zimo and I do look forward to that posting. At this point, I'm leaning toward NCE (but I was even before reading this thread), but both Zimo and Digitrax are still in consideration for me.

Thanks again,

A. P. Robinson

[Anonymous]

Joe,

First let me say thank you for the great job you've done on this and your other DCC clinic.

Now with that said can I make a request? I'd like to know the minimum $ amount to get started with each system you review. For example I've been looking at Digitrax Zephyr & Easy DCC. both have a stationary base station, and that's what I'm looking for to start. I can always add walk-around and leave the bases an the main yard.

Anyway what I've found is;
Zephyr, $160 includes all to get started.? (Tony's prices)
Easy, $130 + power supply $44 And you're ready to go? (CVP prices, can't find anyone who discounts this brand)

Add PC decoder prog. w/DecoderPro
Zephyr, $60 for Loco Buffer 2
Easy, $0

Add a throttle, or booster, or reverser, and so on. and what boosters/throttles can be used with what systems.

I know this is a lot of work but if others chime in I think it would be doable. It would be good to have it all in one thread here. and very helpful to newbies like me.

Thanks
Pat

[knewsom]

Joe,

Would you be opposed to someone else posting how to create a consist with one of the starter systems? For example I would be willing to take the time to post how to create a consist with the MRC Prodigy Advance since I already own it. If not I will be happy to post it as a separate thread. As an aside the PA interface is extremely similar to the NCE interface and it is very easy to use.

[tstage]

Pat,

Yes, the Digitrax Zephyr is a complete starter system and all you need to get up and going..

The Easy DCC is $229 for the starter set. And CVP is the sole distributor of their own products. The only additional item you would need to purchase (unless you already have one) is a 16 VAC power pack for the booster.

Tom

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by knewsom

Joe,

Would you be opposed to someone else posting how to create a consist with one of the starter systems? For example I would be willing to take the time to post how to create a consist with the MRC Prodigy Advance since I already own it. If not I will be happy to post it as a separate thread. As an aside the PA interface is extremely similar to the NCE interface and it is very easy to use.

Post away ... go for it! [swg]

[jfugate]

Bump ... I encourage others to post their experiences with various systems in between my official clinic posts.

Please try to balance your post with at least 1 issue or problem you encountered with your system.

[gregmc]

Joe just to correct some inacuraccies in your Lenz review. You have confused the Set02 with the Set90. The Set02 used the LH200 which is similar in appearance to the LH90 you reviewed in your article. The LH200 contained the command station for the Set02 and has been discontinued. The new Set90 has the same command station, the LZV100, as the Set100, which replaced the Set01/4.

I agree the LH90 could be a bit more user friendly. Definitely not a throttle for someone who doesn't like to read manuals. But it is not as complicated as it appears either. A few practice runs with it and can become quite proficient with it. I would say I can select an address as fast or faster as my friends can with their NCE Cab04s, but part of that may be they generally have to preform the select loco proceedure at least twice because the buttons don't make connections. Overall I give the throttle a C for selecting locos and building consists. As for operation once you get a loco or consist selected, I give it an A.

One other item, the LH90 is an engineers throttle and priced accordingly. Generally I see them being sold on the internet for some where around $70-$80. Most engineers throttles from other systems cannot preform any tasks other than running trains. So the LH90 can be a very powerful throttle once you have learned how to use it.


A little on Lenz consisting. First off it is true the LH90 throttle won't build an "old style" as NCE states it. Not really sure why you would want to anymore with every decoder sold on the market supporting CV19 advanced consisting. If your just now getting into DCC, then it is likely you will never come across a decoder that doesn't support advanced consisting. But if you feel you need it then it can be provided by the LH100 throttle but as Joe pointed out, it is limited to two locomotives per old style consist. The number of old style consists does not appear to have a limit other than a max of 256 locos total on the system. More on that later.

Advanced consisting can be performed by both throttles offered by Lenz. The LH100 is easier to use than the LH90 as pointed out by Joe. Lenz has taken an interesting approach to how advanced consists are handled. Remember the 256 locomotive limit. Well the reason for that is the command station stores info on all thoses locos such as consist and function status. So when a consist is built, the command station remembers which locos belong to which consists and automatically sends commands to the consist address. This allows you to operate your consist from any locomotive address in the consist. NCE has sort of incorporated this feature but limits it to the lead and trailing locos. MRC PA ignored this feature all together meaning you can only run a consist from the consist address.

Lenz has also taken an interesting approach to adding or deleting locos from a consist. Lenz handles this on an individual locomotive basis, meaning you select the loco then select the add or delete feature.


Overall I feel DCC systems have two important parts, there throttles and there operating software. Lenz has the operation software aspect down pat but there throttles leave something to be desired for the novice operator.

To me the perfect DCC system would include the wireless MRC PA throttle on the Lenz command station platform. The combination would blow everything else out of the water, but that's just my opinion.

Greg McCartney
Lenz Set100 and NCE Powerhouse Pro User for +3 years

[CrazyDiamond]

Joe, will you cover Zimo in here, or perhaps do a Zimo versus Digitrax someday in a new thread?

[jfugate]

Crazy:

Plan to review Zimo next ... but since I've never used it, I have to analyze the manual for a few days first. The original handheld manual I'm referencing is in German I believe, and the engli***ranslation is still being done. I finagled a recent pre-release engli***ranslation, and am reading that.

So the review will be coming this week I hope.

[jfugate]

Greg:

Great clarifications on Lenz, thanks for spelling things out in your post.

As to why someone would want to use a command-station (or double-head consist to use Lenz terminology), I can think of at least two reasons ...

1. Compatibility with older decoders.
Just because the latest crop of decoders will all do decoder-based consisting using CV19 doesn't mean there won't be older decoders out there for years to come. Forcing people to upgrade in order to consist their locos is heavy-handed and not customer-friendly.

2. Allows nesting consists, which opens up lots of flexibility
Having rich command-station consisting using the loco number as the consist address (which is possible with both EasyDCC and the Digitrax Zephyr) allows nesting consists. This makes it possible to create all kinds of useful consists, like the double-ended diesel consists I commonly use on my HO Siskiyou Line.

With a double-ended consist, you dial up the loco address on one end or the other, and that becomes the front of the consist. Forward on the throttle moves the lashup in the forward direction with reference to the addressed "front" locomotive. Press the function keys and the lights operate on the front loco, and the sound (horn, bell) operate as expected.

Dial up the other end, and now that's the front. Forward now operates the lashup correctly with reference to the new front end loco. The light function keys operate the headlights on the referenced front loco, and the sound functions all operate as expected. Very handy!

And it's all possible with nested consists (a command station consist layered over the top of a decoder consist), if the system allows for feature-rich command-station consisting that passes function key presses to consist members and so on.

=============================================================

EasyDCC remains firm that command-station consists offer a lot, so they keep enhancing command station consisting with new features with each system upgrade.

My only criticism is EasyDCC also considers decoder-based consisting to be fraught with problems so they have hobbled their system's ability to manage decoder-based consists. This mindset once made sense -- but as you say, most decoders on the market now fully support decoder consisting, function mapping to consist addresses, etc. So EasyDCC's bias has become more of an narrow-minded anachronism. They need to wake up and realize decoder-based consists now offer a lot as well -- and quit hobbling their system's support of decoder-based consisting so much.

Fortunately, you can circumvent most of this by simply programming CV19 directly yourself, which is quite easy to do via DecoderPro. Since EasyDCC's support of command station consisting is so rich, I'm still a pretty happy camper as to my choice of DCC system. [swg]

[gregmc]

I forgot about that. Around here, the two railroads I operate on we usually send a second crew for the second units, usually helpers. Neither railroad requires a push pull operation like you describe. Nesting consists is one area that Lenz could stand some improvement in there operating software. Right now you can't nest two consists together using the Double header feature which would be a great way of going about it.
One could do what you said with NCE but the engineer would need to be using a Procab if the need would arise to break it up.

Greg McCartney

[Anonymous]

Now, this is just opinion of course (every review-oriented post is), but I happen to like the object-action operation of digitrax. I have the system, read the manual once to learn how to consist and havent needed any refresher since then. To me, the object-action format makes sense. Its like saying, "Take loco A and MU with loco B." Not that action-object is bad (make consist, add loco A and loco B) but the object-action format seems more like a persons thought process. It would be better if the zephyr had an LCD screen to guide you through each step though.

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by JPM335

Now, this is just opinion of course (every review-oriented post is), but I happen to like the object-action operation of digitrax.

Yep, one man's meat is another man's poison, as they say.

That's why I wanted to offer enough details in my review that you could decide for yourself and not just take my word for it. Disagreeing is fine, and in fact it would be a pretty boring world if we all agreed on everything ... or to take a cynical viewpoint -- if we both agreed on everything, then one of us would be unnecessary. [swg]

So, JPM, if you like object - action, what would you grade the Digitrax Zephyr?

[Anonymous]

Great work Joe. Most helpful even though I have purchased a Digitrax Empire Builder based on the advise of a LHS. I wanted DCC and jumped in without basic evaluation. I am now going to upgrade the command station / booster to the "Chief" and use the existing commamd station as a booster.
Your consisting description of the Zepher was a good example of my difficulty with need to read manuals instead of running trains. My throttle is the DT400 which is nothing like the Zepher. My consisting so far is to assign each loco to one of the the two cabs and operate both cabs as one train. Very crude but I'm running a "consist" of two locos.
Thanks again for all your expertise. You are a valuable resource for hundreds of us.
Now, back to the manuals!!!

[tpatrick]

After 6 months or so with the NCE Pro R system, I have to agree with Joe's assessment of ease of use. At least it is designed for ease of use. In actual practice it will drive you nuts.

Example: I'm running two trains simultaneously, using the recall function to switch between locos. Works great until out of nowhere it recalls an engine I ran last week. Now I have a runaway train that has to be manually reselected to regain control. That brings up the next example: To control a loco you press "select loco," punch in the engine number digits and press "enter." Pretty easy except all too often it takes multiple tries to get it to accept a number. Four to six keystrokes will usually get you a cursor and several more keys will finally enter a number. But be careful because the next digit will often double enter and then you have to work your way back to the beginning. There is no "back" key for miscues. Meanwhile the runaway train is on the floor unless you use the emergency stop.

Example: Was running two trains toward a crossing. One had to stop to make way for the other. No problem. The through train is running fine and I am controlling the one which is to stop. Just roll the thumbwheel to slow to a smooth stop. But it isn't slowing. It isn't responding at all. The handset shut itself off! Two trains racing toward a collision and nothing to stop them. And before I could reach the master switch on my control panel the wreckage splattered about the layout.. I don't know why it quit. The batteries were strong. It wasn't far from the base station and the line of sight was clear. So I just don't know.

Last example: Last night I ran an engine onto a manual turntable. I gently and carefully laid the handset aside and turned the engine. I picked up the controller carefully and meant to move the engine off the turntable. For some God-only-knows reason the handset was now in program mode. And because I know what a screwed up piece of junk it is, I was very careful not to inadvertently touch any wrong buttons.

NCE has been supportive. They took back the entire system and repaired it once. I am on my second handset. The first one was destroyed in a moment of angry frustration. The second one tries my patience every time I use it. But I have a $600 investment. And I am very sorry I gave up Dynatrol for this. Dynatrol, although far less capable (no sound for example), is vastly more reliable and in many ways provides more realistic control. It's braking function is a real joy. But now I have DCC. Whoopee!

[Anonymous]

Joe

I am real confused. I have been lurking for a long time and have always enjoyed your posts. But your review of the Lenz systems left me confused. Greg helped out a lot but in my opinion but perhaps this thread could benefit from someone that actually uses the LH-90 for their throttle.

I purchased a Set-90 about 8 months ago and after reading your review I have to ask you as to if we are both using the same system because mine works much differently for me than what you post. I especially like the way consisting is handled and rate the LH90 as a B+. I tried to operate as many systems as possible before going with the Lenz and the Set 90 was the only system that my son and I could use without reading the manual each time. I also did not want a console but prefer walk around throttles.

QUOTE:
Lenz considers decoder consists to be the *only* kind of consist you can make with their Set 02 system.

Perhaps this is the way the Set-02 works. I do not know as I have never used one. But in the Set-90 the command station is fully aware of the consist.

With most systems you start with the consist and add locomotives. To me this is not very prototypical and is confusing because you think of the consist and not the locomotive you are operating.

The way it works for me is I select a locomotive and move it to the place where I want to build the consist. I then simply tell the system that the locomotive I am operating should be added to the consist. Next I get my next locomotive and move it to the consist location and add it to the consist.

What I like best is that with I can operate the consist from any locomotive address. I climb up into the cab and begin operation. With a shift A I can go to any of the other locomotives in the consist. You never need to even remember the consist number from session to session because you simply operate the train from any of the locomotive addresses which are on the side of the locomotive's cab. This provides seems to merge the advantages of both types of consisting.

The 8 locomotive stack within the LH90 is also very useful since a single key is used to scroll through the 8 stack positions.

One other neat feature you missed is the 3 position direction switch. The center position is a slow brake. When switching I leave the knob in a mid speed position and use the direction switch as a brake and do all operations just using the switch.

QUOTE:
The Lenz user interface *requires* keeping a manual handy (or making up a cheat sheet for yourself) since very few of the keystrokes needed to do anything are intuitive.

I purchased a second LH90 for my son because it is so easy to use. He is only 6 but has no problem operating and even builds consists when needed. And I do not believe he has ever read any part of the manual. (not real good at reading such things yet) The only time I use the manual is for programming CVs in decoders which I do not do very often.

Clearly we have very different opinions about the LH90. I am not sure why. Perhaps we just operate differently or perhaps they have changed a lot since you last used the system.

But for me this system is ideal and I also very much appreciate both the warranty and the fact that they seem to promote the whole DCC concept by having their systems tested by the NMRA. A real first class act.

---------

James
A happy DCC Set-90 user

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TommyToot

My throttle is the DT400 which is nothing like the Zepher. My consisting so far is to assign each loco to one of the the two cabs and operate both cabs as one train. Very crude but I'm running a "consist" of two locos.

All you have to do from there is press the MU button followed by the Y+.. Your locos will be MU'd on the active throttle and you can keep adding them To the consist by repeating the procedure.. To break one out of the consist, select the loco on the non-consisted throttle, press the MU button followed by the N-.. Do it once and you'll know it for life. I don't understand what's so difficult about it.. I've never used the Zephyr though.. Already had the Chief by the time the Zephyr was released.

Jeff

[tstage]

Well, since Joe encouraged others to share their experiences with other various systems, I'm going to pipe in with the Bachmann E-Z Command system. And, since we have confined the current discussion to setting up a consist, that is what I'll concentrate on. The following information is based on approximately 9 months of experince using the Bachmann.

REVIEW: Bachmann E-Z Command DCC System
With the simplicity of the Bachmann, setting up a consist is fairly easy, but not necessarily intuitive. Pictured below is an E-Z Command for clarification purposes:



Setting up a consist
As stated above, in and of itself, setting up a consist with the Bachmann E-Z Command system is not terribly difficult. But to try and figure it out without the manual, you would be hard pressed to accomplish it quickly.

It's easy from the stand point that, if you can program an address, you can program a consist. However, there isn't anything intuitive about the Bachmann that makes the consisting process jump out at you.

Programming or addressing
In order to assign an address other than 03 to your locomotive, you must go through the following process:

1. Activate the locomotive by running it a short distance on address 3
2. Press 3 AND the STOP button simultaneously and release. (Power LED will flash quickly.)
3. Choose another address and press the cooresponding button. (Locomotive will move slightly and the LED will flash more slowly to indicate that programming was successful.)
4. Press the STOP button again to exit programming mode.

The E-Z Command does NOT have any sort of display to either verify commands or prompt steps so Bachmann uses flashing LEDs to indicate that.

Programming a consist
To program a consist, place two or more locomotives on the same track and assign the locomotives to the same address using the above steps. To have one locomotive facing opposite the other locomotives in a consist, the odd locomotive(s) must be programmed separately in the following manner in order to orient it so that it runs in the same direction as the consist:

1. Choose and press address button (designated for the locomotive consist) and the STOP button simultaneously and release. (Power LED will flash quickly.)
2. Press the direction button you want to assign as "forward"
3. Press the locomotive address button again
4. Press the STOP button to exit programming mode.

Ease of use
The process of consisting with the Bachmann E-Z Command, once learned, is actually quite easy and quick. But, as stated already - without the manual - figuring out how to consist locomotives with the Bachmann E-Z Command would prove to be - literally and figuratively - a trying experience.

Also, since CVs can NOT be adjusted with the Bachmann E-Z Command system, unlike locomotives/manufacturers may still run into similar problems that others face running consists using DC - i.e. dissimilar speeds.

Overall rating for the Bachmann E-Z Command with respect to consisting: C-

Hope that's helpful...

Tom

P.S. Because of the limitations of the Bachmann, and the great help this thread has been (Thanks, Joe! [:D]), I have already reserved the soon-to-be-release NCE PowerCab from Empire Northern for my next DCC system. The 1.7 amps will serve my present needs quite well and is upgradable - whenever I eventually get around to needing to do that.

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tpatrick

After 6 months or so with the NCE Pro R system, I have to agree with Joe's assessment of ease of use. At least it is designed for ease of use. In actual practice it will drive you nuts.

Example: Was running two trains toward a crossing. One had to stop to make way for the other. No problem. The through train is running fine and I am controlling the one which is to stop. Just roll the thumbwheel to slow to a smooth stop. But it isn't slowing. It isn't responding at all. The handset shut itself off! Two trains racing toward a collision and nothing to stop them. And before I could reach the master switch on my control panel the wreckage splattered about the layout.. I don't know why it quit. The batteries were strong. It wasn't far from the base station and the line of sight was clear. So I just don't know.

And I am very sorry I gave up Dynatrol for this. Dynatrol, although far less capable (no sound for example), is vastly more reliable and in many ways provides more realistic control. It's braking function is a real joy. But now I have DCC. Whoopee!

tp:

Sounds like you are experiencing some of the woes of NCE wireless. I too have experienced loss of control with wireless NCE.

I am hoping the latest version of the NCE wireless receiver fixes this odd behavior.

I have to hasten to add that I seldom lose control of a loco with EasyDCC wireless, and their wireless works as close to perfect as one could hope for. CVP (the makers of EasyDCC) make a wireless throttle that works with NCE (you have to also get a CVP receiver and connect it to your NCEcommand station).

So it appears the best of both worlds may be an NCE command station with a handheld for programming, and CVP wireless receiver and CVP wireless engineer cabs for most operators. Unless the latest NCE radio receivers and wireless throttles have corrected the occassional "losing a loco" and "erratic behavior" problem that crops up now and then with their older wireless system.

Some people who own NCE and use wireless get great performance. But more than a few people, like yourself, have told me of odd behavior with NCE wireless. And I myself have experienced the wireless NCE odd behavior on other layouts I have visited as a guest operator.

Really makes me appreciate my very reliable EasyDCC wireless from CVP. I've had the system going on 6 years now and I can count the times we've had erratic wireless throttle behavior on one hand ... and I've always tracked it down to operator error (fat fingering some key combination on the throttle) or low batteries.

Ah, the joys of DCC ... nothing's perfect, is it?

[jfugate]

QUOTE: Originally posted by up-james2

Joe

Clearly we have very different opinions about the LH90. I am not sure why. Perhaps we just operate differently or perhaps they have changed a lot since you last used the system.

But for me this system is ideal and I also very much appreciate both the warranty and the fact that they seem to promote the whole DCC concept by having their systems tested by the NMRA. A real first class act.

James
A happy DCC Set-90 user

Well, James, there you go. Everyone's experience is different. It's good to get a counter view, to be fair to Lenz.

For some reason, Lenz's system and decoders never seem to hit it off with me. I owned a Lenz system for 7 years, but slowly grew more and more dissatisfied with it. I also have more issues with their decoders than any others, and again can't really say why. Yet I use exclusively Lenz power boosters because they work so well for me, and I appreciate their low amperage (I subscribe to the notion of more low amp boosters and power districts instead of fewer large amperage boosters).

I had not purchased a Lenz decoder for a long time, so I elected to try out one of their gold decoders, to see if finally Lenz would come through for me. Well, for some reason, and no one knows why at Lenz, I can't program the Lenz gold decoder on my EasyDCC programming track. It just refuses to take programming commands no matter what I do. (For some odd reason, Lenz decoders always seem to be unreliable for me. Go figure.)

So I set the Lenz gold decoder aside, intending to eventually figure out why it won't work for me. In the meantime, I go back to buying my standard Digitrax decoders, since they have a reliable track record with me. They just work! Again, go figure.

That's why I post the details of each system in the reviews and hesitate to post a lot of very subjective anecdotal experiences (although I'm throwing caution to the wind somewhat in this post by sharing more personal anecdotes). If you don't want to take my opinion in any of my official review posts, then you can look at the details of the review and judge for yourself.

Reality is, especially for the big four systems ... NCE, Digitrax, EasyDCC, and Lenz ... we're often down to splitting hairs. They all work pretty well, and to a certain degree, it's the old Ford and Chevy argument. I say I've had lots of good luck with Fords and you tell me all the stories of how the Fords you owned ran like crap.

Wished it was more clean cut, but at times it's just not. Basically you won't go wrong with any one of the big four systems, if you are into getting a DCC system with growth potential, rich features, and good support.

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tpatrick


Example: I'm running two trains simultaneously, using the recall function to switch between locos. Works great until out of nowhere it recalls an engine I ran last week. Now I have a runaway train that has to be manually reselected to regain control. That brings up the next example: To control a loco you press "select loco," punch in the engine number digits and press "enter." Pretty easy except all too often it takes multiple tries to get it to accept a number. ...

Example: Was running two trains toward a crossing. One had to stop to make way for the other. ... But it isn't slowing. ...The handset shut itself off! ... I don't know why it quit.

Last example: Last night I ran an engine onto a manual turntable. I gently and carefully laid the handset aside and turned the engine. I picked up the controller carefully and meant to move the engine off the turntable. For some God-only-knows reason the handset was now in program mode. ...I was very careful not to inadvertently touch any wrong buttons.

NCE has been supportive. They took back the entire system and repaired it once. I am on my second handset.

Wow!

I've never had any of the sort of problems you describe, except for the second example - the handset shutting itself off. This has happened to me. But if you take the time to read the NCE wireless supplement, you'll find that the throttle is designed to shut itself off after five minutes of inactivity. This is probably In order to keep the batteries from running down if you set the throttle down and walk off without turning it off. It can be adjusted to automatically shutoff from one to nine minutes, and you can also set it to never shut off. I'm not trying to be a wisenheimer here, but ease of use claims aside, it does pay to read the manual, particularly when it comes to operating in wireless mode, and also when the system does something you didn't expect.

The only problems I've had with recalling a loco are mine - Sometimes I forget which loco is which, and am not controlling the one I thought I was (three I have in the queue are BLI heavy Mikes - identical except for road number).

When I first got my NCE I had problems with losing settings every time I unplugged the system. NCE traced this to a bad reset chip and repaired the command station promptly, at no charge to me. Other than that, the system has performed flawlessly. I'm sorry to hear that you are having problems with yours - is NCE still working with you on it?

[tpatrick]

Brunton, thanks for the input, but my inadvertent shutoff was not due to inactivity. I was actively controlling two trains at one moment and in an instant the handset was off. This only happened once, but it is a part of larger pattern of erratic behavior that leaves me pretty unhappy.

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tpatrick

Brunton, thanks for the input, but my inadvertent shutoff was not due to inactivity. I was actively controlling two trains at one moment and in an instant the handset was off. This only happened once, but it is a part of larger pattern of erratic behavior that leaves me pretty unhappy.

Oh. That's a whole different ball of wax.

I've been running trains and not changed the speed (or rang the bell or blown the whistle) for five minutes and had my throttle shut off, but it never has done that other than with the auto-shutoff.

Do the problems disappear when running with the throttle wired into the command station?

With the problems you're having, it seems to me that NCE should just replace the entire system for you and see if the problem is solved that way.

In any case, I hope they haven't given up on helping you. I can understand your frustration in any case, though!

[tstage]

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