This thread is interesting and got me to thinking.
I started in DCC with a Digi Trax "Big Boy" in the late 90's. I still have it but I replaced it with an MRC Prodigy Advance.
I replaced the Digi Trax because I considered the hand held to be more complicated to use than the newer throttles. The documentation with the MRC was excellent and is still excellent. I solved the "programming" issue by using a Soundtraxx PTB100. The sound decoders are power hogs and this is not the fault of the control system.
I use Soundtraxx and LokSound sound decoders exclusively now and am replacing my QSI's and "other" OEM sound decoders (unless they are Soundtraxx or Loksound) with these.
The next step may be MRC Wireless but the tethered throttle has not presented it self as a problem that needs fixing.
The thought of using my cell phone (I6s) as a throttle is not even on my radar screen. Having said that I only use my phone to make phone calls, text messaging, and as a good camera.
My kids and grandkids do not describe me as a Techie or a Digi kat.
Chris
tstage ATLANTIC CENTRAL The Aristo throttle has a momentum setting, it would be interesting to know how your friend has that set. Even in the "zero" momentum setting, there is actually a small (fast) momentum action to the throttle. I noted that when I was using it, Sheldon. My guess is that the momentum was on the heavy side because it seemed to take a while to slow down the train. Tom
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The Aristo throttle has a momentum setting, it would be interesting to know how your friend has that set. Even in the "zero" momentum setting, there is actually a small (fast) momentum action to the throttle.
The Aristo throttle has a momentum setting, it would be interesting to know how your friend has that set. Even in the "zero" momentum setting, there is actually a small (fast) momentum action to the throttle.
I noted that when I was using it, Sheldon. My guess is that the momentum was on the heavy side because it seemed to take a while to slow down the train.
Tom
Yes, that may have been a problem. Personally, I have never cared for momentum on any throttle, so mine are set to the "zero" setting. That gives just the right "smoothness" to the throttle without any real delay, and I do like that smoothness.
One of the tricks to the Aristo throttle is also understanding the emergency stop button. Even thought it is an emergancy off, it too ramps down at a fixed rate, it is not like cutting the wire........so a train moving at a slow speed can be stopped smoothly at an exact spot by using that button.
Also slow speed switching moves can be done by changing direction while moving slowly, because the direction button will first ramp the throttle to zero, than there is a slight delay while the polarity changes, then it ramps back up to the previous setting.
All these freatures were designed into the throttle to provide both smooth operation, and to treat motors and gears gently.
Sheldon
tstageI noted that when I was using it, Sheldon. My guess is that the momentum was on the heavy side because it seemed to take a while to slow down the train. Tom
Tom,You may not like switching cars on my ISL due to the momentum and speed step.. In order to stop 5' scale feet beyond the switch point you will need to shut the throttle off before the engine starts going over the frog even though the engine is moving at a slow switching speed.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Actually, Larry, I would be fine with it. It would just take getting used to it. Since it was the first time I used an Aristo radio throttle and there was no display read-out feedback, the momentum delay made me question whether I was doing something wrong.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
tstage Actually, Larry, I would be fine with it. It would just take getting used to it. Since it was the first time I used an Aristo radio throttle and there was no display read-out feedback, the momentum delay made me question whether I was doing something wrong. Tom
Cool.. I'm a big fan of momentum,start volt and speed steps and that's my drawl to DCC. Of course momentum on my T-6 can be set in DC mode as well which extends my momentum enjoyment.
Tom, you would likely be beter off to get use to the Aristo without momentum, then increase the momentum to a level that works for you.
As for displays, I would rather not have any, they just distract me from watching the train....
I can understand that, Sheldon. I do like the simple display on my Power Cab because it gives me the important essentials at a quick glance - without it being a distraction. And, like the Aristo throttle, it's a one-handed operation to change speeds without having to look at anything.
tstage I can understand that, Sheldon. I do like the simple display on my Power Cab because it gives me the important essentials at a quick glance - without it being a distraction. And, like the Aristo throttle, it's a one-handed operation to change speeds without having to look at anything. Tom
The NCE throttle is one of the better designs, but still a little bulky to me.
Obviously by system design, DCC throttles need to give you some information, address, consisting, etc.
Of course for me, those functions are handled differently by the dispatcher and tower control panels.
I've been an industrial electrician ( I don't wire houses or commercial buildings ) for over forty years. For thirty five of those years, I worked in a rolling mill where huge slabs of metal were rolled ( think giant rolling pins ) into sheets of metal and rolled into coils. All this equipment ran on DC motors. Over 90% of the electric motors in the plant were DC. That means we had to convert the power companies AC current to DC. We did this with tube rectifiers, diodes, motor-generator sets and SCRs. ( Controlable diodes ). Working with the manuals and electrical drawings for this equipment, I thought converting to DCC would be relatively easy and straight forward.
Boy, was I wrong.
I bought a Digitrax Super Chief system. The manual must have been wrote by an eight year old. No rhyme, reason or logic to the manual at all. It took over an hour to deciper the manual and connect two wires to the layout and power supply, and get the throttle connected to a universal panel. It should have been twenty minutes.
Then there are the decoders. Who ever came up with the programing of these things must have got their inspiration from a nightmare while doing some serious drugs. 'Add up the numbers from Chart 5a and program them linto CVxx. This will turn on the rear light when you press F9" What? Wait...there are no 'F' keys on my throttle! And there are two columns. Which one? What are these 'Bits' I keep reading about? Program XX into CV29 and you engine will run with 28/128 speed steps ( which is it 28 or 128.-do these have anything to do with CV2,3,4,5,&6? ). DC will be off and the engine will run in reverse. Wait! Do I have to change this CV whenever I want to change the engines direction? Program XX into CV29 and your engine will use the speed tables. What? Where are these? Do I get a choice of what table gets used? Are these factory defaults?
Then there's consisting. This has to be the most convoluted setup ever. I managed to get a consist set up and running on my Digitrax system after about thirty minutes of button pushing. Getting the engines out of the consist was worse, an exercise in futility. I ended up putting the engines on a programing traack and resetting the decoder. Now I program all the engines with the same address and change the CV29 value to get the rear facing unit to run in reverse. Then leave the engines consisted.
I replaced the Digitrax system with an NCE system. This is 500% better than the Digitrax. There are buttons on the throttle for headlights, momentum, and horn. But you still have the stupid decoder. But NCE really improved the decoder programing mess.
But hands down easiest control system to set up and run is RailPro. This is the way the other systems should be. Consisting is unbelievably easy. There is no speed matching. The system handles it. Putting two engines at the front and two in the middle is no problem. There is no surging or stalling. The cars inbetween the engines have their coupler taunt at all time. I am moving all my consist to RailPro.
Bluerail? Cell phones are for talking and texting. And way too small. Plus you need a smartphone. I don't have a smart phone. More expense.
JMRI? Having this option just proves how convoluted the other systems are. But, this means an interface to the DCC system, cables to run and a computer. Really??
It seems several companies have tried making bluetooth controlled systems that allow you to operate your models using a smart phone or tablet. However, I dont think that this will become wide spread for several reasons. First, I think it is more of a gimmick to save costs. Many cheap rc toys use bluetooth, higher end models use remotes. For example cheap rc helicopters in regular stores use bluetooth, while high end quads (about $1000 or more) use a remote with a phone or tablet only being used for video. Second, controlling live things on a smart phone or tablet is hard for a variety of reasons. Touch screens are somewhat hard to use, may have to be pressed multiple times, and fragile. This is made worse when you add a screen protector (I am typing this post on an I-Phone with a suvivor case). The other issue with a common device is that other apps can pop up notifications that temporarily prevent the use of the controls. Finally, wifi or bluetooth can be unreliable in certain situations. I am on an FTC robotics team and we switched to using smart phones with wifi to control the robot this year. We use video game controllers for the input, but commonly have connection issues at competitions. The interference from other teams and spectators with smart phones (team members don't have phones on them to prevent interference) prevents the phones from making a connection. We have to connect them outside of the competition area and then keep the devices on to maintain connection. For clubs and operators at train shows, this could be a major issue.
On control systems themselves, I looked at the RailPro system by Ring Engineering. It seems like a great system, however, I see a few issues. One, it is one company with few employees it sounds like. If they go out of bussiness parts/products will be hard to find. Two, it has some customization but you need the company's tech support for some of it, and it seems limited compared to DCC. Third, it isn't supported by manufacturers. While many install DCC into their locomotives, it is also nice and sometimes cheaper to buy your new locomotives with DCC. The nice thing with DCC is that it is based on standards. I think the biggest and most popular disruption to the market will be a system that is compatible with DCC, but offers more features and is user friendly.
No sound, no care.
I don't see DCC going anywhere.
We have a poet and didn't know it...
SouthPenn JMRI? Having this option just proves how convoluted the other systems are. But, this means an interface to the DCC system, cables to run and a computer. Really??
SouthPenn,
I primarily use JMRI Decoder Pro for storing the CV values and decoder information of my locomotives in one convenient place. To me, it's equivalent to backing up the contacts on my cell phone or the files on my computer.
While JMRI is free, you are correct that there is an expense for the interface and cable. However, it's still less expensive than the 1TB Seagate Backup Plus for backing up my computer's hard drive. And, since I have Decoder Pro installed on my tablet, it too gets backed up when I back up my computer.
I still program my locomotives using my Power Cab so Decoder Pro is primarily a convenience rather than a necessity for programming. That said, it sure makes it handy for viewing all the CVs in one location.
gatrhumpy No sound, no care. I don't see DCC going anywhere.
DCC is only ONE way to control model trains with digital controls. There are others. It is called, competition.
Digital control is continually evolving.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
I so love the hyperbole. The FIRST PAGE (after the table of contents) of the Digitrax Super chief manual has a pictorial diagram of how everything hooks together. A CLEAR PLAIN PICTURE. The page after that has written words saying which wires to connect to which terminals, and then step by step which buttons to push to make a train go.
I'm sorry, but the "digitrax manuals suck" thing is about 15 years out of date now. You are no deeper into the manual than any of the other major systems to get to the part where it says "to get started, hook a wire here..."
As for Bluerail taking over - call me back when it becomes an established standard. We have at least 3 competing direct radio systems plus Bluerail, which in effect is just another direct radio system that happens to use Bluetooth LE for the wireless mechanism. None of these systems is compatible with the other. This is why there was no real takeup with command control systems prior to DCC when there were some that did nearly everything DCC does (and in some cases - did MORE than the earliest DCC systems). There were at least a dozen, probably more when you count ones that never were big enough to be listed in any sort of "round up" article in the hobby press. Many of them actually worked quite well. Some well-known modelers used systems, but not always the same ones. You couldn't take your loco and run it on your friend's command control layout unless they too had the same brand as you. Few if any of the early systems worked on DC once they had a command control receiver installed, you needed a jumper inside to switch back and forth. Those are just two of the things that the DCC standard solved. Until and unless there is a standard set for direct radio systems, I seem them being just a small niche market, smaller than DCC. There certainly is no reason to change from a working DCC system, you don't really gain anything that improves operation that be done just as easily with your existing DCC system.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker I so love the hyperbole. The FIRST PAGE (after the table of contents) of the Digitrax Super chief manual has a pictorial diagram of how everything hooks together. A CLEAR PLAIN PICTURE. The page after that has written words saying which wires to connect to which terminals, and then step by step which buttons to push to make a train go. I'm sorry, but the "digitrax manuals suck" thing is about 15 years out of date now. You are no deeper into the manual than any of the other major systems to get to the part where it says "to get started, hook a wire here..." As for Bluerail taking over - call me back when it becomes an established standard. We have at least 3 competing direct radio systems plus Bluerail, which in effect is just another direct radio system that happens to use Bluetooth LE for the wireless mechanism. None of these systems is compatible with the other. This is why there was no real takeup with command control systems prior to DCC when there were some that did nearly everything DCC does (and in some cases - did MORE than the earliest DCC systems). There were at least a dozen, probably more when you count ones that never were big enough to be listed in any sort of "round up" article in the hobby press. Many of them actually worked quite well. Some well-known modelers used systems, but not always the same ones. You couldn't take your loco and run it on your friend's command control layout unless they too had the same brand as you. Few if any of the early systems worked on DC once they had a command control receiver installed, you needed a jumper inside to switch back and forth. Those are just two of the things that the DCC standard solved. Until and unless there is a standard set for direct radio systems, I seem them being just a small niche market, smaller than DCC. There certainly is no reason to change from a working DCC system, you don't really gain anything that improves operation that be done just as easily with your existing DCC system. --Randy
Randy, agreed, but I will repeat a few simple themes from my earlier post.
I do think BlueRail and all the other direct radio new systems will have some small effect by "stealing" some of the growth in DCC. And they will have little effect in converting existing DC users.
Based on your posts, and the fact that we met once at a train show (you may not remember), I know you are involved in a club, and in that "interchange" world of the social side of the hobby.
And there is no doubt DCC will continue to grow and rule with that group of modelers in HO and N scale.
But not everyone cares if their trains will run on someone else's layout. Not everyone hauls their stuff to modular layouts at train shows or to club layouts.
Not everyone cares if their friends can bring locos to their layouts.
So people will buy these systems - people are buying these systems as marked by some of what we read on this forum.
If forum participation is as small as I think it is in terms of the total number of modelers out there, even the simplest extrapulation of the few "alternative" control system users we have on here means hundrerds or thousands are buying these other systems - and thereby not buying DCC......
I can think of one DCC evangelical ex forum member who must be having a heart attack - he surely did every time I said "DC".
Hyperbole?
At what point did I say that hooking it up was the problem? That is the easy part.
I can run a DCC loco, it even came with a "quickstart" sheet.
If you get into doing any single other thing, the instructions are somewhere in the manual. Problem being the manual is a lot better off for someone who already has experience with DCC than anew user to the system as I said earlier. Everything is there somewhere, but it has a very disjointed style and answer are multiple pages apart. Nothing is clearly written to build on something else it just assumes you know.
It is not written clearly for people who are not experienced. You have to do everything in a hunt and peck mode because certain steps are not included in a section when you are trying to do something unless you go back to another section and have a "Ah-hah!" moment. To me that is a stupid way to do business any way you slice it. I like it, I am learning how to use it and teaching the 6 yr old along the way and making cheat sheets for myself. A clear concise insturction manual should be mandatory in my book.
I'm not a newbie to technology nor stupid or ignorant as well. I've taught myself hex to decimal and back and how to read code to do tuning on my own cars well before all the "tuning" in a box kits that are available now. Talking real tuning here as well, not plug it in reflash, but actual proper tuning for cams, heads, intakes, etc. A lot of the same vehicles have been retrofitted as well where I cut/spliced/made harnesses and the like.
Jeremy - I was referring to SouthPenn, not you, with the hyperbole comment.
Sheldon - yes, at Timonium. As for the club, since I bought my house I've been not so much involved any more. The year I moved in, I took the vacation I usually used to spend the week at the Strasburg show to do the work I wanted and then move in, last year I kinda just didn't do it, nor did I this year again. I do still maintain my membership in the historical society (which the model club is part of), I just haven't been much of a participant lately.
If you are referring to Bob - unfortunately he passed away over a year ago now. Complete shock as I had just visited with him - he was from western PA near where my GF is from and the club he belonged to always had a show over the Christmas holidays so I always stopped by to chat for a while when we went out there. Never did get to see his home layout, but at the show he was usually working on a new structure for it. Was quite a shock when I got the email saying he had passed not long afterwards.
rrinker Jeremy - I was referring to SouthPenn, not you, with the hyperbole comment. Sheldon - yes, at Timonium. As for the club, since I bought my house I've been not so much involved any more. The year I moved in, I took the vacation I usually used to spend the week at the Strasburg show to do the work I wanted and then move in, last year I kinda just didn't do it, nor did I this year again. I do still maintain my membership in the historical society (which the model club is part of), I just haven't been much of a participant lately. If you are referring to Bob - unfortunately he passed away over a year ago now. Complete shock as I had just visited with him - he was from western PA near where my GF is from and the club he belonged to always had a show over the Christmas holidays so I always stopped by to chat for a while when we went out there. Never did get to see his home layout, but at the show he was usually working on a new structure for it. Was quite a shock when I got the email saying he had passed not long afterwards. --Randy
No, I was thinking of David.
Yes, having the space and time for your own layout can change your views on clubs.....I stopped spending time with our local group, and dramaticly cut back on forum activities specificly to better use my time for family and actual modeling.
Again, as I have said in all these discussions, I agree DCC is here to stay for a long while, if not effectively "forever".
But I do think the hobby will continue to become more "splintered", and control systems will continue to be one of the dividing factors.
I think Bluerail will be the system for the young people entering the hobby. They will identify with this system more than DCC. The Bluerail system will get even better in the future as the company continues to improve it to do updates.
I will probably never go to it but I am not the young person that will continue hobby into the future.
I use a NCE Power Pro that is intuitive and has a prompting display that leads you through programing. The first 4 pages of the manual will set you up to run trains.
Nick100 I think Bluerail will be the system for the young people entering the hobby. They will identify with this system more than DCC. The Bluerail system will get even better in the future as the company continues to improve it to do updates. I will probably never go to it but I am not the young person that will continue hobby into the future. I use a NCE Power Pro that is intuitive and has a prompting display that leads you through programing. The first 4 pages of the manual will set you up to run trains.
Once the smartphone crowd realizes that DCC/LCC offers a lot more than any limited proprietary system based around wireless technology, they will drop it like last years iPhone.
They are already accustomed to dumping their tech for something new and shiny every few years.
Everyone who complains that DCC is "too complicated" should complain to the maker of their system and ask for a better interface to DCC, as that is what they bought. Every manufacturer chooses to make his interface to DCC as simple or as complex as they want. The Europeans seem to be miles ahead on making a sophisticated yet simple interface on their DCC systems.
betamaxThe Europeans seem to be miles ahead on making a sophisticated yet simple interface on their DCC systems.
I am afraid that´s rather true!
Even the cheap Trix Mobile Station II is easy to handle and uses a simple menue with icons to let you configure the properties of your decoders. That system has a street price of below $ 100 in Europe!
betamax Once the smartphone crowd realizes that DCC/LCC offers a lot more than any limited proprietary system based around wireless technology, they will drop it like last years iPhone. They are already accustomed to dumping their tech for something new and shiny every few years. Everyone who complains that DCC is "too complicated" should complain to the maker of their system and ask for a better interface to DCC, as that is what they bought. Every manufacturer chooses to make his interface to DCC as simple or as complex as they want. The Europeans seem to be miles ahead on making a sophisticated yet simple interface on their DCC systems.
The poor design of the user interface on most systems is high on the list of reasons I am still using DC.
With my advanced cab control, I designed most of the user interface myself and in my case selected the Aristo wireless throttle as the throttle control user interface.
The European throttles do seem better - but I don't care for touch screens or icons.
Oh yes - actually, I barely noticed he was gone
There will always be DC. DCC has been around long enough now that there will always be DCC. The others will be a fragmented mess unless the manufacturers get together and help set a compatible standard as was done with DCC - granted, the various systems were debated until Bernd Lenz offered his design for free and then it was effectively over as far as the NMRA was concerned. If there ever is some direct wireless standard, then it may become a significant third option. Right now it's like Android vs iOS. Taken together, all the various Android phones outsell Apple by a huge margin. But no one ANdroid phone comes close by itself. It's not jsut that people would want to take their trains to the club, or to a friend's house - there's also the one manufacturer issue with potential orphaning of the system. We've seen manufacturers come and go with more than just control systems. While I wouldn't be too happy if Digitrax went belly up tomorrow, I could just pick up any other DCC system and connect it to me (currently imaginary) layout and all my locos would work just like before. If I buy a bunch of Bluerail receivers and outfit my loco fleet and THEY go belly up tomorrow, I'm hosed. I could switch to say Railpro, but I'd have to buy all new receivers and retrofit every loco - one of the same major obstacles to an established layout switching to DCC. That's one problem I didn't have since I started with essentially nothing and I just outfit my locos with DCC as I acquire them, there was no mass purchase to outfit an existing fleet.
Here is a question:
How many DCC manufacturers from the 1990's are still in business?