Sir Madog I am following this thread with ever growing amusement! So we are seriously discussing a technology which has nothing really new to offer in terms of features and user benefit, will remain more or less proprietary for a time span exceeding my current life expectancy and, adding insult to misery, offers ergonomic disadvantages over the current, well received and well established technology, which has not yet reached the limits of usage. Oh well, so it be! I guess it is my limited understanding of today´s world, in which "new" does not necessarily means "better". So what´s wrong with the Model T? It got good gas mileage, was cheap to buy, easy to maintain and repair, didn´t need 4WD for the rugged country roads....
I am following this thread with ever growing amusement!
So we are seriously discussing a technology which has nothing really new to offer in terms of features and user benefit, will remain more or less proprietary for a time span exceeding my current life expectancy and, adding insult to misery, offers ergonomic disadvantages over the current, well received and well established technology, which has not yet reached the limits of usage.
Oh well, so it be! I guess it is my limited understanding of today´s world, in which "new" does not necessarily means "better".
So what´s wrong with the Model T? It got good gas mileage, was cheap to buy, easy to maintain and repair, didn´t need 4WD for the rugged country roads....
Don´t worry, I plan to stay around for another 20 years, despite a series of minor strokes, a couple of heart attacks, bad cases of pneumonia - you name it I´ve had it!
I bet DCC will still be around then...
Choops Nothing new to Offer? no signals in the rails. Customizable interface. battery operation.
Nothing new to Offer? no signals in the rails. Customizable interface. battery operation.
Battery operation - Again, no one has addressed where the batteries are going to go in HO- or N-scale diesel switcher and how easy/convenient will it be to recharge them?
And how expensive will battery technology be for each locomotive? Don't tell me that the price is going to eventually become pennies on the dollar. All we need to look at is the cell phone industry and battery replacements for those ubiquitous units are still $20 and up and have been for years.
Granted you may save the cost of a throttle by using your smartphone and have a convenient path for upgrading features. However, I see other unconsidered expenses creeping in that don't make it less expensive than current DCC technology.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Any discussion of new technology on hobby forums always turns into a battle between the people who are invested in older technology and the people who are willing to try new things and are open minded about new technology. If you are a DCC guy that is great - keep on using it! there is no reason to be as negative about something new as the comments I've read on this thread. I have controlled trains via DC, DCC and I own some of Bachmann's new EZ App locos. I believe the innovation of Bluetooth control lies in the fact that you do not have to purchase any hardware if you have a smart device capable of running the app - and yes I realize that some of you will never own a smart device or do not want to use one to control your trains - that is fine you guys can use DC or DCC and everyone will be happy. The other great thing about Bluetooth is its evolutionary nature. It is software based so the App and the firmware in the locomotive can be constantly updated with new features (which Blurail has been doing quite regularly). Having an option to use battery power is also a great feature. I love my iphone and use it for all sorts of things including running trains. I believe Bluetooth and DCC can live in harmony together - as a matter of fact I would not be surprised to see a day soon where the Bluerail app will run DCC equipment as well.
BuckscoThe other great thing about Bluetooth is its evolutionary nature. It is software based so the App and the firmware in the locomotive can be constantly updated with new features
That´s not new at all and not an exclusive BlueRail feature.
BuckscoHaving an option to use battery power is also a great feature.
It´s already done in DCC.
I just want to see the 80 year old gentleman crawling under his layout in the attempt to rertieve a locomotive with a dead battery providing it from emerging from "down below!"
BlueRail has nothing to offer DCC can´t already do, including operating your trains via iPhone, smartphone, tablet pc.
And no, I am not a DCC guru - I run my train (!) using a Gaugemaster throttle with momentum simulation and breaking - all of which I can handle blindfolded with one hand only.
Bucksco Any discussion of new technology on hobby forums always turns into a battle between the people who are invested in older technology and the people who are willing to try new things and are open minded about new technology. ... I believe Bluetooth and DCC can live in harmony together - as a matter of fact I would not be surprised to see a day soon where the Bluerail app will run DCC equipment as well.
Any discussion of new technology on hobby forums always turns into a battle between the people who are invested in older technology and the people who are willing to try new things and are open minded about new technology.
...
I believe Bluetooth and DCC can live in harmony together - as a matter of fact I would not be surprised to see a day soon where the Bluerail app will run DCC equipment as well.
Jack,
There's a great difference between willing to try new things and being open-minded about new technology vs. looking at that new technology and determining if the new thing:
I think the latter is a wise approach to any potential purchase or consideration. It's not being negative; it's being realistic.
I also agree that BlueRail and DCC can live in harmony side-by-side. The battle originally started with the opening post by the OP, who claimed that DCC would be "destroyed" by BlueRail. Therein lies the "open-minded" technology user.
Bucksco Any discussion of new technology on hobby forums always turns into a battle between the people who are invested in older technology and the people who are willing to try new things and are open minded about new technology. If you are a DCC guy that is great - keep on using it! there is no reason to be as negative about something new as the comments I've read on this thread. I have controlled trains via DC, DCC and I own some of Bachmann's new EZ App locos. I believe the innovation of Bluetooth control lies in the fact that you do not have to purchase any hardware if you have a smart device capable of running the app - and yes I realize that some of you will never own a smart device or do not want to use one to control your trains - that is fine you guys can use DC or DCC and everyone will be happy. The other great thing about Bluetooth is its evolutionary nature. It is software based so the App and the firmware in the locomotive can be constantly updated with new features (which Blurail has been doing quite regularly). Having an option to use battery power is also a great feature. I love my iphone and use it for all sorts of things including running trains. I believe Bluetooth and DCC can live in harmony together - as a matter of fact I would not be surprised to see a day soon where the Bluerail app will run DCC equipment as well.
Jack, Invested is the right word. People like myself, and others you may think are being negative about new technology, likely have good reason.
If you are just dabbling in model trains on a 4x8 with three locos and 25 freight cars, then trying out a new control system is no big deal.
BUT, if you have a 1000 sq room with 8 scale miles of flex track, 100 turnouts, a CTC panel, dectection, signals, 135 locomotives and a well established plan under which guest operators attend prototype operating sessions, then dabling in a new contyrol system is a whole different ball game.
I hear the stories on this forum, but still can't get my head around the idea of people who control some of their trains with controller X, and some of them with controller Y. That simply would not, could not, work for my layout.
For most people, when operating trains during any kind of prototype operating session, having to actually look at the throttle can be very distracting. Older people like myself cannot see small displays without out reading glasses, but can see the trains just fine without them.
So I need a throttle I don't have to look at, and I hate touch screens and they hate me.........
I have said over and over on this forum that some sort of direct radio throttle is the wave of the future in model train control, but not if the only throttle is a touch screen on a smart phone.
Remember, this thread started out claiming Bluerail would replace DCC - that is going to get people stired up.
And like I said in the beginning of this thread, in 20 years DCC has not replaced DC, Bluerail won't replace DC or DCC in 50 years.........
I'm all for others trying new technology, but don't tell me how it is going to make everything else obsolete before it is really even in the market yet.......
Sheldon
The discussion has proven two points:
So what else is new?
Can we now put the case to bed?
Sir Madog The discussion has proven two points: Old "pharts" like me are not easily thrilled by new technology and have a less enthusiastic, but more rational approach to it. Younger folks show a certain arrogance towards those still driving the Model T .... So what else is new? Can we now put the case to bed?
I honestly think you are generalizing and stereotyping people. My 87 year old mother uses an iPad everyday to do her email and skype with me and is quite enthusiastic about it.
As far as arrogance is concerned it is pretty arrogant to paint people young or old with such a broad brush....
Brings up a point, how old is everyone? I'm 63.
43
Nothing wrong with a model T. It's feul mileage is a poor reason to use to avoid new technologly.
Steve
Bucksco Sir Madog The discussion has proven two points: Old "pharts" like me are not easily thrilled by new technology and have a less enthusiastic, but more rational approach to it. Younger folks show a certain arrogance towards those still driving the Model T .... So what else is new? Can we now put the case to bed? I honestly think you are generalizing and stereotyping people. My 87 year old mother uses an iPad everyday to do her email and skype with me and is quite enthusiastic about it. As far as arrogance is concerned it is pretty arrogant to paint people young or old with such a broad brush....
Well, I'm not tech shy or tech phobic, but I also don't need new tech unless it really does something new or better that I actually NEED!
In the 1980's I wrote programs for some of the first industrial PLC's, My house has whole house automation for some features, my two new cars have bluetooth phone linkups and navigation, I have a tablet (not from Apple thank you), but I do not have a smart phone. I can't see them without my glasses, so there is no point, my flip phone works just fine, or I use the tablet.
There is a difference between using tech you really have use for and just "playing" with every new thing that comes along - I have no interest in the later.
As for age, I'm 59.
But again, even if Bluerail introduced a complete working and tested system tomorrow, I would not change, or even buy one to play with. I have too much money and time invested in what I have, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, what I have meets ALL my train control needs and wants.
And if you read my posts in this thread, I never said it was a bad idea, except for the phone/throttle part, I simply explained the realities of the model train business as it relates to stuff like this........having been at this for 49 years and also having worked in this business.....
Choops Nothing wrong with a model T. It's feul mileage is a poor reason to use to avoid new technologly. Steve
And there you have it: The use of the term "avoid" is problematic and in and of itself divisive. To avoid something is to not want to have anything to do with it because you're either scared of it, or you don't know how to use or deal with it. If I've looked at something to determine it's merits, demerits, and potential benefits, I wouldn't consider that avoiding it but determining it's worth - for me.
I don't use GPS. Why? Because I'm afraid of it? No, because a map gives me a MUCH better overall picture of how to go from Point A to Point B. GPS - while it does have it's usefulness and merits - only gives me a VERY limited view of where I'm at and where I'm going. A map gives me a bird's eye view and I actually learn something from it - e.g. where the road I'm traveling on is in reference to other points of interest. GPS doesn't teach me that at a glance. I would have to push a series of menu options to maybe achieve that and everything would only be viewable on a small screen. So, I use maps any chance I can.
So, let's stop painting people with a broad stroke who look at the next "great" technological breakthrough and who aren't interested (for legitimate reasons) as "avoiders". Perhaps some are; others may deem the new technology with a different set of eyes and see it holds little interest or benefit to them.
And, FWIW - I'm 57 and enjoy using my tablet. But I definitely prefer the efficiency of a mouse & keyboard for typing out things of this nature - even if it's done wirelessly.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL There is a difference between using tech you really have use for and just "playing" with every new thing that comes along.
Like
- Douglas
Tom, well said, completely agreed.
I use GPS, but I agree about maps and I still like to refer to the bigger picture of a map as well.
Yes, my keyboard is wireless, my mouse is wireless, my desktop is only a year old and has a BIG monitor, much easier to use than the tablet. I consider the tablet a mobile convenience, that's the only reason I have it.
Here is one I don't have, we don't have programable digital thermostats in our house. Someone is almost always home, and we are seldom away long enough for automatic adjustments to actually save money. Unless you are gone 12 hours or more, set it and forget it is the best energy policy with thermostats. We do however have five zones of heat and two zones of A/C in our Victorian "mansion"
Back to train control, I will repeat for those who do not know me, I use DC. A very complex and full featured version of DC with detection, signaling, CTC, one button turnout routing, and wireless throttles all intergated into one system - how much of that will Bluerail do for me?????
And again, I'm not tech shy, I considered DCC and computerized block control before designing my current system.
Bluerail does not slove any problems or do anything I need better than what I have - as it relates to MY needs and goals. Niether does DCC for that matter.
That does not make me a technophobe, quite the oposite, I designed and built most of my control system myself.........
Just need to add one more thing to what I said about the technologies. I really don't care for DCC. It is cumbersome and very difficult to use due to it's non-intuitive interface. What I really don't like is having to manipulate Configuration Variables manually - if only someone would come up with an easier way to change acceleration rates, deceleration rates, etc... with an easy to use intuitive (icon driven) interface....oh wait - that's what Bachmann and Bluerail are doing with the app! Seriously - the Bluetooth app is making it easier by making the interface modern and easy to use.
Bucksco Just need to add one more thing to what I said about the technologies. I really don't care for DCC. It is cumbersome and very difficult to use due to it's non-intuitive interface. What I really don't like is having to manipulate Configuration Variables manually - if only someone would come up with an easier way to change acceleration rates, deceleration rates, etc... with an easy to use intuitive (icon driven) interface....oh wait - that's what Bachmann and Bluerail are doing with the app! Seriously - the Bluetooth app is making it easier by making the interface modern and easy to use.
But Jack, have you read anything others have said.
You think a smart phone and icons is intuitive, maybe for you it is (or you think it is because you now have learned to think the same way as the programers who design that sort of stuff). I hate icons, my favorite icon is a button with a word on it........reading is fundmental......
I agree, some aspects of DCC are cumbersome. But a large number of people using DCC never remap an acceleration rate, or hardly change any CV's at all.
I still use DC, with pulse width modulated wireless radio throttles, I have yet to need to remap an acceleration rate, I don't need consisting, I have no need/desire to turn lights on and off.
I don't like or want tinny sounding onboard sound, so I don't need to control that either.
Yet nearly every train on my layout is pulled by more than one powered uint, often of different brands and in the case of steam, different wheel arrangements. It must be magic that allows me to do that without all this space aged tech......
I agree, most of the user interfaces in DCC are poorly designed, that is one of the things that kept me away from DCC. But I don't see a smart phone and a touch screen that I always have trouble with as an improvement.
You think it is easy to use, maybe for you it is, but if it involves a touch screen, I asure you it would not be easy for me.
You point of view assumes everybody needs and want the features you need and want - some of us understand that our needs are not the same as others needs.
Rumors of the demise of DCC are greatly exagerated... Blue rail may turn into something prety cool but there are a few hurdles to get past.
As some one who has a sizeable investment in time and money in the current DCC technology - anything that is going to replace it better offer significant advantages - so far Bluerail doesn't.
Guy
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Bucksco if only someone would come up with an easier way to change acceleration rates, deceleration rates, etc... with an easy to use intuitive (icon driven) interface....oh wait - that's what Bachmann and Bluerail are doing with the app! Seriously - the Bluetooth app is making it easier by making the interface modern and easy to use.
if only someone would come up with an easier way to change acceleration rates, deceleration rates, etc... with an easy to use intuitive (icon driven) interface....oh wait - that's what Bachmann and Bluerail are doing with the app! Seriously - the Bluetooth app is making it easier by making the interface modern and easy to use.
I've found icon-based interfaces still take time to learn and aren't necessarily more intuitive right off the bat than non icon-based interfaces. You get used to what you get used to.
Personally, I think the BlueRail interface is going to run into some of same issues with feature intricacies as those who decry DCC is difficult to use. Course, they won't have a manual to refer to because some say it doesn't need one. We'll see how long that lasts...
So I decided to take an updated look at the Bluerail web site which I had not been on in a while.
And this is what I found:
Lots of talk about still working out problems for us non Apple users - I'll never own an Apple phone of any kind, don't like the way they do business, every Apple phone my grown kids and/or grand kids have ever had has been a problem one way or the other.
The one board they make, I have no way to know if it will fit in any of my locos - 28 mm x 58 mm - all the rulers on my work bench measure in inches........or scale feet.
And I thought the "bug list" was interesting - trains not stopping - someone else can test this stuff thank you.......
We DCC users have been hearing about the "new thing" that will replace DCC for decades. In 2004 on the old Atlas Forum, someone told me that they would not be buying DCC because it was going to be replaced with a superior system within 5 years.
Since then, we've had Crest's Train Engineer, MTH's DCS, Ring Engineering's RailPro, and now Blue Rail.
I'm still waiting...
Paul A. Cutler III
ATLANTIC CENTRAL The one board they make, I have no way to know if it will fit in any of my locos - 28 mm x 58 mm...
The one board they make, I have no way to know if it will fit in any of my locos - 28 mm x 58 mm...
Roughly 1.1 x 2.3", Sheldon. Larger than any TCS or NCE HO-scale decoders; probably on par with S- or O-scale - at this point.
[Edit: NCE's O-scale D408 decoder is nearly the same size: 1.2 x 2.3" I'm sure the boards will eventually get smaller. However, that's where things are at presently.]
BuckscoI honestly think you are generalizing and stereotyping people. My 87 year old mother uses an iPad everyday to do her email and skype with me and is quite enthusiastic about it. As far as arrogance is concerned it is pretty arrogant to paint people young or old with such a broad brush....
... and you are taking it way too serious, mate!
Will someone please pull the plug on this sense- and useless discussion?
of course, in case some would wish to continue the discussion:
Paul3 We DCC users have been hearing about the "new thing" that will replace DCC for decades. In 2004 on the old Atlas Forum, someone told me that they would not be buying DCC because it was going to be replaced with a superior system within 5 years. Since then, we've had Crest's Train Engineer, MTH's DCS, Ring Engineering's RailPro, and now Blue Rail. I'm still waiting... Paul A. Cutler III
I think Paul is nailing it!
We have seen so many ideas popping up, which, in the end, proved to be all show but no stay. All arguments presented why DCC is supposedly moribund have not given any evidence of the patient actually dying, let alone being ill.
DCC is dead - long live DCC
To me, the only thing less exciting, less promising, about Bluerail is the Bluerail web site. There is little there informationally about the product, little there to convince me that it is the wave of the future, little there to even assure me that this is anyhing more than a backroom operation at this point.
Rich
Alton Junction