betamaxHow many DCC manufacturers from the 1990's are still in business?
could you ask the same thing about PC manufacturers? The number of venders depends on the size of the market. (Does IBM still make PCs)?
I think Randy's comment about compatibilty was very interesting. A standard for wireless would help build such a market. Do you think any of today's wireless methods could be become an NMRA standard like Lenz's did?
I've wondered about expandability. The more expensive wireless decoders make sense for a small number of locomotives. At what point does someone trade in their wireless system for DCC?
when I worked at AT&T, I was told customers (e.g. Chase Bank) would often be unhappy with quotes for satellite earth stations (1980s) because AT&T quotes recognized that customers would quickly expand capacity. They became upset with the other venders when they understood that those quotes were for exactly what they asked for and they would have to replace equipment to expand.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
I believe that with the exception of one, the answer is all of them. And some of the components from that one company are compatible with NCE.
Well, two of them actually - Wangrow and Ramtraxx. PSI (Dynatrol) may have dabbled in DCC in the beginning, they have an NMRA manufacturer ID but they are gone today. Phoenix Sound is another that I think is gone. There is reference to them being called Ramfixx as well as Ramtraxx.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Wangrow bought out RammTraxx. Wangrow went out of business because they used software from NCE and the licence expired. They couldn't sell command stations or throttles if it needed a ROM licenced from NCE.
Ultimately, Wangrow chose not to use an NCE designed system to update their product line and NCE decided to go their own way. Basically NCE replaced Wangrow.
Jeremy,I don't think you're going overboard, I think you're just frustrated that somebody hasn't organized the available information in a way that is easy for you to digest. There are a complicated lot of variables to play with in DCC. Manufacturers feel they have little to gain by improving what they have already printed about them. Manuals may be terse, but I would be surprised if you found more than a few inaccuracies. Getting DCC running is "stupid easy"; getting more advanced DCC features running requires effort, experimentation, and sometimes tools like JMRI. The best support for DCC - and the hobby in general - typically comes from the community of model railroaders who are already using it and have figured out what works and what doesn't. Most folks are happy to share that information, as they do in this and other forums around the web.Digitrax themselves wrote The Digitrax Big Book of DCC (http://www.digitrax.com/products/digitrax-big-book-dcc/), applicable to any DCC system, which probably covers more than you ever want to know about DCC, in an understandable format - but you have to build your knowledge from the basics and work your way up to understanding the more advanced uses, of which there are many. Nearly everything that worked a decade or more ago still works the same way now, which is the beauty of a comprehensive standard. Plus for basic functionality, every manufacturer's decoder will work with every other manufacturer's equipment, so you're not stuck with Digitrax if you're not happy with them. The two sources I just mentioned are concentrated areas where you can get a lot of good and actionable information (in addition to the manuals, not instead of them). I have an NCE system and their manuals are brief, but usable. You still have to do a fair amount of thinking and doing in order to understand how everything works together. Like you, I am technically savvy, yet still have trouble piecing everything together to get what I want, because I want everything now. The supplied information is accurate, but room isn't made to explain things fully. There are far more non-tech-savvy people I know who make things work just fine. While it is indeed a shame that information is not presented better, it is adequate once you read and comprehend the supplied instructions. Your documentation may not be professional grade, but it was intended for hobbyists. Try to get rid of your preconceptions, be objective, follow the instructions, and you may find it quite easy.DCC will be around a long, long time. Bluerail may be the next big kid on the block, but I think rather than "destroy conventional DCC", you'll find it will be a viable alternative. Given a couple years, I bet they make hybrid decoders that will be both Bluetooth and DCC compatible. DCC isn't going away.I have a suggestion for you. Write down what you are having problems with and write to Digitrax. Products and manuals evolve. Maybe by sharing your information and wants, you can help them produce the kind of manual you are looking for. If you don't want to go that far, there are plenty of fellow modelers available you can ask questions of. I'm sure we'll do our part to help.--Ed EaglehouseModeling modern power
[Post edited by admin to remove mention of That Website Which Shall Not Be Named.]
What we have in BlueRail is a new beast. You may compare it to old attemps at changing the world but this is a new breed in the fact that the builders are techies and buisness wize, the partnered with one of the largest train manufactures, Bachmann. Since the begining of the year the evolution of it is increadable having added android chuf rate sync ect. and consisting is in beta along with a bunch of other stuff. As to those who talk about phones being a problem, soon there will be stand alone thottles for people to buy, they already offer them as add on for some phones to play games. The real game changer is dead rail and just months after starting to sell boards they already have prewired dead rail units available. I have played with DCC and never really liked it as every time it passes a dead spot, no mater how small, the sound gets interupted, yes I know about keep alives and that ussually solves that problem but you also have the problem of complexity many times at clubs etc. with DCC problems, so minor, some major. Others say they never have problems with DCC, but I have personally never met one of these people. What I have said before though is what can propel Bluerail beyond the me too's is their partnership with Bachmann and it should do for them what it has for On30, which used to be a fairly minor scale before Bachman entered the fray.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
rrebell it should do for them what it has for On30, which used to be a fairly minor scale before Bachman entered the fray.
... On30 is still hardly visible in the world of model railroading and even if Bachmann would offer the option of BlueRail for all their products, including Bachmann (UK), Graham Farish and Liliput, that would not be a critical mass to be accepted as a new standard, but continued to be seen as a proprietary system.
I see dead rail as the one and only chance for any other train control system, but even in this field, BlueRail is not without competition - see DelTang! Still, I can´t picture a layout of the size of the Miniatur Wunderland in Hamburg being battery operated and Bluetooth or R/C controlled. Just take a look of what effort these folks had to undertake to make sure their cars don´t "run out of gas" in hard to reach places!
What we are doing here has the quality of foreseeing the future by looking into a crystal ball. Currently, there is no system around which has the potential to succeed DCC in short order.
I understand Bachmann´s partnership with BlueRail as an attempt to draw more attention to Bachmann products by segmenting the market and offering a "techie-line". Others have tried that before.
betamax Wangrow bought out RammTraxx. Wangrow went out of business because they used software from NCE and the licence expired. They couldn't sell command stations or throttles if it needed a ROM licenced from NCE. Ultimately, Wangrow chose not to use an NCE designed system to update their product line and NCE decided to go their own way. Basically NCE replaced Wangrow.
Found some additional info on this: http://www.dccwiki.com/Wangrow
Also it appears that RamTraxx was what RamFixx called their system.
rrebell but you also have the problem of complexity many times at clubs etc. with DCC problems, so minor, some major.
Maybe you could elaborate on this. I belong to a club, and yes sometimes there are issues. But we converted from DC to DCC and I can't say the number of issues have increased.
maxman rrebell but you also have the problem of complexity many times at clubs etc. with DCC problems, so minor, some major. Maybe you could elaborate on this. I belong to a club, and yes sometimes there are issues. But we converted from DC to DCC and I can't say the number of issues have increased.
Sir Madog rrebell it should do for them what it has for On30, which used to be a fairly minor scale before Bachman entered the fray. ... On30 is still hardly visible in the world of model railroading and even if Bachmann would offer the option of BlueRail for all their products, including Bachmann (UK), Graham Farish and Liliput, that would not be a critical mass to be accepted as a new standard, but continued to be seen as a proprietary system. I see dead rail as the one and only chance for any other train control system, but even in this field, BlueRail is not without competition - see DelTang! Still, I can´t picture a layout of the size of the Miniatur Wunderland in Hamburg being battery operated and Bluetooth or R/C controlled. Just take a look of what effort these folks had to undertake to make sure their cars don´t "run out of gas" in hard to reach places! What we are doing here has the quality of foreseeing the future by looking into a crystal ball. Currently, there is no system around which has the potential to succeed DCC in short order. I understand Bachmann´s partnership with BlueRail as an attempt to draw more attention to Bachmann products by segmenting the market and offering a "techie-line". Others have tried that before.
The biggest "large" DCC issue was that the NCE radio systems just constantly chatter and overwhelmed any nearby Digitrax radio system - this sort of thing only happened at large exhibitions where multiple clubs would be set up next to one another. This is one of several reasons Digitrax went to 2.4GHz for their new system, another being the 900MHz range used by them and NCE is not legal in many European countries (or maybe just England) and 2.4GHz is.
As for Bluerail being a "new breed" - in what way? It's functionally identical to systems like Railpro, except that instead of a (I'm sure not custom) radio module it uses Bluetooth Low Energy. Theoretically they should be able to make the receivers cheap if they use the same chipsets used in smartphones since they are produced in the millions if not billions, but that hasn;t manifested yet. The microcontrollers typically used in DCC decoders are also made in the millions or billions, everything these days uses a microcontroller even for simple tasks like blinking a light. And with Bluerail you use your own smartphone for a throttle instead of a customer device like Railpro - however that's a con for probably as many potential users as it is a pro - a large segment of model railroaders prefer knobs to turn over swiping on a touch screen. A combination device like some of those DCC throttles or Ring's controller have the best of both worlds, a knob to control the train plus the ability to have context sensitive labels on the buttons used to perform other functions. And keep in mind the ability to use a smartphone with DCC has been around for a while now, at LEAST 5 years with no cost and I'm pretty sure actually a lot longer. So I stand by what I previously posted - Bluerail is not really all that different than any other of the currently available direct radio systems other than their particular choice of rf protocol. There are some, like Tam Valley's Dead Rail - that work WITH an existing DCC decoder - the Tam Valley syetem basically turns the DCC system from a track-based carrier control to an RF based wireless, it broadcasts the NMRA DCC signal via RF to receivers in the loco which are powered by battery packs and need no rail connection for power. It's even compatible with the CVP T5000 throttle.
rrebellIn this country On30 is very visible.
That I don´t challenge, but I assume the market share to be way below 5% and on a world wide basis much, much lower than that.
I am sure the tecnoligy will go down in price over time.
I guess a nice thing I've noticed about BlueRail is their system's non-reliance on hardware seems to lend itself well to continuous upgrades. In the last 6 months they have released a firmware update to 16 kHz pwm, chuff-rate calibration, ditch-lights as well as Android support. It seems every 2-3 weeks there is a new feature. Are there any other systems that release so many frequent updates?
Dressendorfer It seems every 2-3 weeks there is a new feature. Are there any other systems that release so many frequent updates?
It seems every 2-3 weeks there is a new feature. Are there any other systems that release so many frequent updates?
Course, that type of system lends itself to easier firmware updates than most DCC systems. And frequent updates don't necessarily equate to good products. For now, though, BR is working through the development of the firmware and interface so frequent updates are to be expected.
I do hope the product does well. It's going to take a lot of convincing and upside for me to switch from DCC; the interface being the largest undesireable hurdle.
Tom
Dressendorfer I guess a nice thing I've noticed about BlueRail is their system's non-reliance on hardware seems to lend itself well to continuous upgrades. In the last 6 months they have released a firmware update to 16 kHz pwm, chuff-rate calibration, ditch-lights as well as Android support. It seems every 2-3 weeks there is a new feature. Are there any other systems that release so many frequent updates?
Of course that ease of upgrade (just downlaod the latest app) is a double edged sword - who cares if it's fuly working, just get the fixes in the next version!
Ease of and/or need to upgrade isn't always a benefit. Older Digitrax stuff only ever had one firmware update, in that the earliest DCS100 systems messed up above F8 (at the time they were released, the NMRA spec only went to F8). But since then, they've seen expansion with additional detection and signalling modules, new throttles that went to F12 and now F29, a completely new radio system, new computer interfaces, etc - and not once have they needed a firmware update, due to teh way the system is designes to NOT need them. The newer systems have your typical flash memory firmware so the end user can download the latest file and update the device themselves - and there have been several updates to various new components to fix one bug or another.
The ability to update CAN be good though, see yet another reason I don't like Tsunami sound decoders. The new version has new features. But I'd have to take my locos apart and swap the decoder sna end up with a pile of the old ones that no one would want. Enter Loksound. Not only have they done refreshed new recordings for many of their sounds, they also have introduced similar dynamic motor sounds found in the other new decoders. The only difference is - I can update all my existing locos without openign them up, using the same decoder that's already installed, by merely flashing the firmware. Even if I didn't already own the Lokprogrammer device to do this, after 2 decoders, you've recouped the price of the hardware vs having to buy all new decoders. 6-10 locos already equipped? The programmer is a downright bargain compared to the alternative.
And I blame consumerism for much of the present situation. Like all the peopel who line up outside stores for the newest smartphones. WHen the one they are using while standing in line WORKS PERFECTLY FINE. Or the huge bloat in most software these days. Well the other guys added a feature, so we have to add 5 to ours so it stays 'better' Features used by who? 1/10000000 of your user base?
rrinkerconsumerism
That´s the name of the game - that´s what it is all about! When we talk about value added, it´s not meant to be for the customer´s benefit, but the company´s balance sheet!
Sir Madog rrinker consumerism That´s the name of the game - that´s what it is all about! When we talk about value added, it´s not meant to be for the customer´s benefit, but the company´s balance sheet!
rrinker consumerism
It seems like a more appropriate title for this thread would be "A bunch of people who've never tried BlueRail reaffirming their faith in DCC"
Dressendorfer It seems like a more appropriate title for this thread would be "A bunch of people who've never tried BlueRail reaffirming their faith in DCC"
You missed the whole point, a point made first by me at the beginning of this thread, and I don't use DCC.
Most people in this hobby are not going to rip out and replace something that is working fine for them - no matter how much "better" something new is.
That is why after 20 years DCC only controls about half of the HO/N scale market and even less in the other scales.
Sheldon
I don't disagree with your point. I was following another thread about BlueRail features that was deleted, and the point was made there is already another thread about BlueRail features in "Electronics and DCC". This thread doesn't seem to be about that train control system or its features. It has a provocative title and the majority of the posts are people vested in DC or DCC who are venting. I'm not sure why we were referred to this thread.
Or, how 'bout something like "Why do BlueRail fans get SO worked up or feel the need to take an antagonistic stance because some folks aren't interested in the technology???"
If you want to operate your layout with a smart phone or tablet - More power to you. If you like that sort of interface for running your locomotives - Go for it. Neither of those appeal to me; nor do I see it paying enough dividends to warrant a change from my Power Cab, which I can operate one-handed.
And I'm not afraid of technology. I'm using a wireless keyboard & mouse to type this post from my laptop so it's displayed on my 23" LED monitor. I just don't find every new "wrinkle" in technology either desirable or necessary. And it's okay to stick with something that works perfectly fine and should be around for a lonnnnng while - despite what the OP and other's opinions may be on the topic.
I can't tell that there is a single post in this thread from anyone who says they use BlueRail. It seems like the OP just made a thread with a provocative title and people jumped in.
BlueRail is very attractive for someone starting new and only needing a few locomotives as the costs are very competitive in that case and there are no sunk costs. However, to really take off BR will need to offer a very wide variety of RTR locos. Most modelers are scared to take the shell off their locomotives, much less replace a circuit board or <shudders and shakes> file or mill the frame to make space for a decoder/receiver. So adoption will be slow until someone (and Bachman has the resources) releases a full line of RTR locos.
Read the thread title objectively. Then consider THIS post as "How dare you people disagree with me?".
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Phoebe Vet Dressendorfer It seems like a more appropriate title for this thread would be "A bunch of people who've never tried BlueRail reaffirming their faith in DCC" Read the thread title objectively. Then consider THIS post as "How dare you people disagree with me?".
Let's face it, when you make a statement as aggressive as that one, you better have some good facts to back it up. I don't think that the OP does.
Destroy? That clearly implies that DCC will not only be surpassed by Bluerail, it will be replaced by Bluerail. Once that supposedly happens, DCC will never be used again.
The dictionary defines destroyed as "put an end to the existence of (something) by damaging or attacking it". Do you even need to try Bluerail to challenge the OP's assertion? I think not. DCC is too much of an innovation in the hobby to be dismissed that easily.
This thread is simply argumetative, nothing more.
Rich
Alton Junction
DCC, and for that matter, DC as well, will stay on as long as tracks are employed to supply power and transmit signals. And that´s going to continue for quite a number of years as the disadvantages of complex wiring (even with DCC) and the necessity to clean the tracks are outweighed by the advantages.
As long as the leading manufacturers in the world do not buy in into the idea of dead rail and bluetooth train control, DCC will prevail.