Well, Bachmann has bought into it, they're pretty major. That said, I don't see any of these systems gaining huge acceptance until there is a standard and you aren't dependent on one company. They can say they are in it for the long haul, etc., but companies come and go every day. The best of intentions can't overcome market forces.
ANd true, Bachmann selling the product lends some credibility to them. But also consider Bachmann's history of rebadging stripped down stuff - not full Tsunami decoders, but a lower cost missing some features "sound value" decoder. Dynamis is an ESU product with some features left off compared to the actual ESU product. Their original DCC motor only decoders which were bottom of the barrel Lenz decoders that Lenz knew better than try to sell, having discontinued them years ago. Etc.
DC and DCC are going no where. Nothing is going to "eat their lunch" at least in the near future. As seen in this thread, many of the things you can do with Bluerail can be done with existing DCC systems.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
As to Bachmann itself: I have a few of their locos. While they are decent looking I find that their pulling power is way less than other locos from different companies. At least thats what I have found
Someone needs to explain this BlueRail stuff to me. I looked at their website and it appears that the major offering is to be able to operate a model railroad with a cellphone/tablet.
Are we not already able to do that using a router, JMRI, and an interface between the router and the command station? If so, why would I want to purchase the new system?
maxman If so, why would I want to purchase the new system?
If so, why would I want to purchase the new system?
Used in conjunction with evolving battery technology, the potential of running your layout without the need of powering your track (aka dead rail). Where the batteries are going to be located in each locomotive (along with the BlueRail board) and how they will be conveniently recharged is up for discussion or debate - depending how you want to look at it.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Sir Madog DCC, and for that matter, DC as well, will stay on as long as tracks are employed to supply power and transmit signals. And that´s going to continue for quite a number of years as the disadvantages of complex wiring (even with DCC) and the necessity to clean the tracks are outweighed by the advantages. As long as the leading manufacturers in the world do not buy in into the idea of dead rail and bluetooth train control, DCC will prevail.
DCC, and for that matter, DC as well, will stay on as long as tracks are employed to supply power and transmit signals. And that´s going to continue for quite a number of years as the disadvantages of complex wiring (even with DCC) and the necessity to clean the tracks are outweighed by the advantages.
As long as the leading manufacturers in the world do not buy in into the idea of dead rail and bluetooth train control, DCC will prevail.
That still doesn't change the interface, rrebell; whose two-handed operation may appeal to some but not to me.
If you have already spent thousands of dollars on your DCC system, setup JMRI on your home layout, and are totally happy with it, this probably isn't the system for you. If you are a DC user or only lightly invested in DCC (and not heavily committed) this might be worth looking into. Remember there is no "system" to buy - you just buy a loco or a circuit board (for existing loco) and you can run it on any layout. I think the Bachmann association has given some people the impression that bluetooth low energy is "entry level", but the BlueRail app (which targets existing hobbyists) has added ditch lights, chuff-rate calibration, Android (and are apparently about to release consisting). The initial plugin board really seems to target HO steam tenders (or diesel/steam in scales larger than HO), but they have said they are working on a narrow board (for HO diesel), a higher amperage board, and onboard sound. BLE won't have much appeal for heavy JMRI owners until it begins to integrate more intimately with DCC, which I would imagine is not very far away.
I don't think people who run this with their iPhones or Android phones use 2 hands. People running it on larger tablets definitely do.
There are also some people to whom using a touch-screen or tablet will never have any appeal for. I respect that.
There are other people who have posted videos using a BlueRail board to power a DC train set and control layout lights, just so they can run things with a smart device.
rrebellBut I am also telling you that this is happening now.
Okay, now I am curious. You seem to be a big proponent. Are you using this to operate your model railroad?
passenger1955 I don't think people who run this with their iPhones or Android phones use 2 hands.
I don't think people who run this with their iPhones or Android phones use 2 hands.
Oh, yes they will: One to hold the smartphone; the other to touch or swipe the screen. While I also need two hands to use my Power Cab, speed control, horn, lights, and direction - functions I use the most - only require one-handed tactile operation; in most cases I can do this without even needing to look at it. I don't see this carrying over easily to a touchscreen.
There is a "tap above" feature on the app where you hold the phone in your right hand and use your right thumb to tap anywhere above the throttle graphic (right side of the screen) which moves your speed up one speed step. Tapping below brings you down one speed step. This feature was added so people could operate without having to look at their devices.
passenger1955 There is a "tap above" feature on the app where you hold the phone in your right hand and use your right thumb to tap anywhere above the throttle graphic (right side of the screen) which moves your speed up one speed step. Tapping below brings you down one speed step. This feature was added so people could operate without having to look at their devices.
Ok, how about direction change?, Horn?, Bell?
First of all, I'm a big NCE fan and love their controllers. Its a great standard for train control. When I use the horn, bell and direction change functions on the NCE control, I look down at the controller. I guess I haven't gotten good enough to run these without looking down. Maybe some day I'll get there.
maxman rrebell But I am also telling you that this is happening now. Okay, now I am curious. You seem to be a big proponent. Are you using this to operate your model railroad?
rrebell But I am also telling you that this is happening now.
All these new ideas that are going to kill DCC still have the same problem that plagued every command control system before and after DCC: That single point of failure which is the sole supplier of the system.
What happens when Bachmann demands a decoder for $10 less than the price they now pay? If it can't be supplied, they drop it. Or you end up with a stripped down basic decoder which many would find inadequate and replace with another decoder that costs just as much as a DCC decoder.
Or some patent troll comes along and demands big money because he holds a patent on controlling a train with a wireless device.
Accually I expect others to get in this game.
Relative to the motor in the loco, especially when pulling a train, the power consumption of the chipset for the BT radio is practically nonexistent. Even on the other side, at the smartphone - MOST of the battery power is used for the graphic chip to update the screen, and the CPU. The cellular radio is the biggest other power consumer, BT is WAY down there.
I still say the ideal throttle is like that new ESU one, except just the knob part, which you could connect to your existing smartphone via BT and then have a nice knob to turn to run the train, not touch screen sliders. Punch in numbers for a loco address, or hit function keys, with the type of context sensitive UI that you can do with a touch screen (the button labels change to reflect what you are doing, instead of buttoings with 3 fixed labels that you have to remember do 3 different things based on what 'mode' you might be in). That gets you the best of both worlds, and would be a generic product not specific to any one DCC system, and since it's really just a knob and direction switch with a simple micro and BT chip, it should be very inexepensive. I do have plans to experiment along these lines with Arduinos and a BT LE module to link it to the smartphone.
Jeremy: I have read and reread your original post a number of times, trying to get a handle on your point of view. I am not a fan overstatement or over the top predictions. And, in my opinion, you are guilty on both charges. Blue Rail may indeed be the control system of the future, but will it "destroy" DCC as we now know it? I have in my possession a number of trains in various scales that operate just fine on other than DCC and I still am to get parts to maintain those systems. And some of those trains and systems are nearing 100 years old! DCC did not destroy those systems - it merely added to the hobby universe. DCC and DC and will be here for decades to come. If you prefer BR over DCC by all means, by all means, use it and enjoy it. As for the DCC manuals that come with the current market inventories. Let me say this: I did not have any particular trouble with the manual that came with my NCE system. My older brother has a fairly early Digitrax system in which the manual is (admittedly) a little more geek friendly than I would like but, certainly still understandable. And both of these companies have on line customer service people who are most willing to assist you.Talk to them and talk to the service people at the decoder manfucturers. They want to help you enjoy your experience with their product(s).
Old Fat Robert
Old Fat Robert Jeremy: I have read and reread your original post a number of times, trying to get a handle on your point of view. I am not a fan overstatement or over the top predictions. And, in my opinion, you are guilty on both charges. Blue Rail may indeed be the control system of the future, but will it "destroy" DCC as we now know it? I have in my possession a number of trains in various scales that operate just fine on other than DCC and I still am to get parts to maintain those systems. And some of those trains and systems are nearing 100 years old! DCC did not destroy those systems - it merely added to the hobby universe. DCC and DC and will be here for decades to come. If you prefer BR over DCC by all means, by all means, use it and enjoy it. As for the DCC manuals that come with the current market inventories. Let me say this: I did not have any particular trouble with the manual that came with my NCE system. My older brother has a fairly early Digitrax system in which the manual is (admittedly) a little more geek friendly than I would like but, certainly still understandable. And both of these companies have on line customer service people who are most willing to assist you.Talk to them and talk to the service people at the decoder manfucturers. They want to help you enjoy your experience with their product(s). Old Fat Robert
Part of my post was "angry post", but everything about garbage manuals from Digitrax is true. I agree, plenty of people here agree and having discussions with people at the club tonight who have been using it for over 2 decades or so agree. By all accounts everyone has said the NCE manual is much nicer. I will first hand check out my friends next time we get together.
I have read all the manuals for my : Zephyr, DT402 and PR3 mobil decoder and sound manual.
So riddle me this, why can't they even explain something the same way in their own manuals for different products????????????????? They can't even do consistency in their own manuals.
People have complained about their manuals being poor for years. I know some who said it again last weekend in person.
I'm no fool, I learned code to tune ecms in cars, I can build and rewire harnesses for ecm's. I've run plants for making product and been involved with PLC stuff to a limited degree as well.
Here is the future reality. Turn phone on, turn track power on, open Bluerail(which I am sure will have an intuitive and friendly interaction) and go run your trains.
Here is the current reality. Turn Zephyr on, turn track power on, memorize button sequences after you hunted thru poorly written manuals making cheat sheets as you go and correcting as you find yet more flaws. Then get to run a train.
Repeat all the above quite a few times if you want to consist engines and properly dispatch them.
People will buy the one that sets up in 5 minutes everytime.
I'll talk to them eventually. Might last a while, might be a real quick call because it will depend on my mood whan I call. I tend to be pretty forward and say exactly what I think. I'm trying to wait until I am calm.
JEREMY CENTANNI Part of my post was "angry post", but everything about garbage manuals from Digitrax is true. I agree, plenty of people here agree and having discussions with people at the club tonight who have been using it for over 2 decades or so agree. By all accounts everyone has said the NCE manual is much nicer. I will first hand check out my friends next time we get together.
https://ncedcc.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/200906155-PH-Pro-5-amp-Starter-System
What amused me about this thread from the outset was a rant over the quality of the manuals leading to the conclusion that Bluerail will destroy DCC. Why? Because of the quality of the manuals?
Rich
Alton Junction
Went to club last night to discuss painting backdrops for them, they have two layouts, one in HO and one in N. The HO was not finished enough to run trains, the N was. N was not running because of Digitrax box that malfunctioned, person fixing it was well qualifed but could not get the info to fix, even online and he has the skill set to replace componets etc.
So, if I follow your train of thought as interpreted: A poorly written manual for your Digitrax Zephyr means that all DCC manuals are poorly written and therefore the current DCC technology will be destroyed? I wonder what will happen if (when) you have a negative experience with Blue Rail? As I said before: If you like it BR and it works well for you then be happy with it and enjoy your trains. You (and everybody else) will be pleased to learn that I am now out of this conversation. Happy Railroading!
This discussion reminds of my favorite computer manual "IBM 370 principles of operation ". A completely unintelligible book even to experts about the old mainframe compute. If I have to spend hours pouring though a manual I am not interested in that system BT or DCC.
Joe Staten Island West
joe323 This discussion reminds of my favorite computer manual "IBM 370 principles of operation ". A completely unintelligible book even to experts about the old mainframe compute. If I have to spend hours pouring though a manual I am not interested in that system BT or DCC.
Lets see, easy to use........
My DC advanced cab control took a year to design, and longer to build (only partly complete now).
But, I can explain to a new operator how to run a train in just seconds, especially if a dispatcher is on duty.
It works like this:
Here is your wireless throttle, that is your train. Moving to your left is west, this button to left makes you go that way. This button to the right makes you go east.....
This button at the top speeds up your train, this button below slows your train down, this other button stops your train quickly......
See the signals, if the signal is red, stop. If it is green you can go.
Even without a dispatcher, you only need know a few other things.
There are local tower panels, you will need to know your throttle number.
There is a little map on the tower panel, you push the button numbered for your throttle for the track section you are in, one button for the route through the interlocking you wish to take, and one button for the track section you will be entering.
Your signal will turn green, you can go....
At the next tower panel, select the route, one button. Select the next section, one button, your signal turns green, you can keep going.
There you have it, my complete operators manual for mainline operation......
Sheldon
rrebell joe323 This discussion reminds of my favorite computer manual "IBM 370 principles of operation ". A completely unintelligible book even to experts about the old mainframe compute. If I have to spend hours pouring though a manual I am not interested in that system BT or DCC. Most of the people seem to learn Bluerail by watching a Video.
Most of the people seem to learn Bluerail by watching a Video.
So you're saying BlueRail is too complicated to transfer it to manual form...??? Then you would have to peruse through a whole series of videos just to learn about the intricacies of BlueRail???
Seems more complicated and time consuming than writing a manual for such a proposed simplier setup.
No, it is so simple a manual is really not needed.
rrebellN was not running because of Digitrax box that malfunctioned, person fixing it was well qualifed but could not get the info to fix, even online
Any system involving any sort of electronics can potentially have a fault of some sort. You seem to think that this Bluerail thing will be perfect, and that operation using it will be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer. Yet I believe that you have not set up or used this yourself. So I'm afraid that I fail to see how you can be qualified to tell us how wonderful it is.
rrebell No, it is so simple a manual is really not needed.
In reality, rrebell - I find that difficult to believe.
What if you mess up a setup and you can't figure out how to get out of it or fix what you "broke"? It's so intuitive that that will NEVER happen? Are you going to wade through a bunch of YouTube videos to find out what the issue/fix is?
Me thinks you have waaaaay more wishful thinking about the technology as it relates to other users if you really think a manual is not needed.
rrebellNo, it is so simple a manual is really not needed.
Since you have indicated that you aren't even using BlueRail yourself, respectfully, how would you know?
The amount of BlueRail hype on this forum has become egregious. Many carelessly cite features that the developers admit will only be available far in the future (if ever) as current capabilities.
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