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Your thoughts on the new TMCC II Legacy System Locked

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Posted by Joe Hohmann on Monday, November 20, 2006 7:37 AM
It's not on my "must have" list, since I only added TMCC to one of my loops on my small 5x8 layout a few weeks ago. The reason I added this is a bit unusual...it was so I could see my 100+ hand-painted MTH figures inside of my passenger cars at all times, under constant lighting. I also like the "brake" function...which lets me "squeal" the train to a stop at the station, and upon release of the button, it slowly starts-off again. This system has more features than I plan to use, so an "upgrade" would be lost on me. Yes, the TMCC engines I bought, semi-scale Lionel K4 and GG1, cost some bucks, but they will fill all my needs. The system itself cost me $100., and hooked-up with one wire to my...hold on to your hats...CW80 transformer! It works fine, and I'm pleased with this set-up. Joe
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Posted by brianel027 on Monday, November 20, 2006 7:29 AM

Good points Trigtrax. Hey, I never said kids can't run TMCC. The ones I know of that are allowed to use it, have picked it up rather quickly.

The big point I make is that they are more than likely using it on Dad's layout or Grandpa's layout, NOT THEIR OWN layout. Every single guy I know personally in the hobby today had a layout as a kid that was THEIR layout. NOT Dad's, not Grandpa's but their very own layout. And we were allowed to play on those layout's without Dad's immediate supervision.

My own postwar Lionel F3 took a good number of tumbles off our elevated trestle type layout and even a couple tumbles to the floor, yet survived and still ran, albeit with a few more scratches than previously exisited. I wonder if the kids above had a similiar mishap (again, on their own, no adult present) if the trains would hold up as well. I think not. Most TMCC equipped locos are not as rugged as were the engines most of us got as kids.... unless someone has put an upgrade into a Williams loco. And today's electronics are susecptable to failure or malfunction from simple prolonged derailments that can commonly happen when kids run trains. That wasn't the case with the locos of years gone by.

I'm not trying to start another debate on whether the trains today are better than of years gone by. Obviously most adults would say they're better today. But not necessarily better for the kids.

I sincerly doubt given the overall low market usage numbers for TMCC (and DCS which is prbably lower than TMCC) very many kids have their very own TMCC system with their very own TMCC loaded engines that they can play with on their very own layout without Daf's supervision. And I sincerly doubt that any of the kids shown above are more than wecomed to enter the train room and just start playing with trains as they wish, or to have their friends over and show them without an adult being present.

This is the big difference in the hobby today. Most layouts belong to Dad or Grandpa and the kids get to play on it sometimes, not the other way around.

It's not that TMCC in and of itself is that much more costly that a complete video game system. But when you buy the basic unit and controls, all that's left is the games. I think even most novice parents know that starting off in the train hobby is not just TMCC itself, but the layout board and lumber, the wire, the screws, the nails, the extra track, the buildings etc. etc.

The train hobby is more family participatory in my opinion, if a family is looking for that kind of activity to share together. But video games can be a useful babysitter for parents who are worn out from both working all day.

As has been discussed many times before, getting kids into the hobby is an uphill battle today. And there are lots of factors that play into it. In my opinion, newer more expensive operating systems and more expensive locomotives might make Dad and Grandpa happy (for a few minutes anyways until the next incompatible upgrade is announced), but it will do little to help grow the hobby with the youth market.

Lionel advertised a forth coming "Scout-Control" system in the 1996 catalog. It never came about though. I might guess it could have been something along the lines of the MTH IR system. I wish Lionel had put or would put the effort into a basic affordable RC system, instead of all this expensive stuff that does give many newcomers the impression (accurate or not) this is an unaffordable hobby.

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Posted by trigtrax on Monday, November 20, 2006 6:40 AM

We all know that kids can't run TMCC................

It's not whether they can run TMCC.. It's whether they have an interest in toy trains at all.

Sure, drag your kids to a train show and they'll jump on any system just to use their fingers. What's their alternative? Walk from table to table to see the same trains on each one?

My opinion of Legacy will be on hold until it's actually on the market.. So far I've heard claims and hype but haven't seen the system. But for now I don't see any train or system coming close to the hysteria the PS3 created. And I don't see trains competing with the hand eye stimulation kids seem to thrive on from these video games.

DCC, DCS, TMCC I or II all belong to an age gone by. I saw a survey where our average age is either 52 or 55 ( don't quite remember, but it doesn't really matter<G>). For a variety of reasons this hobby doesn't attract the young. TMCC has been out for ten years and hasn't really had any effect on that.

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Posted by thor on Monday, November 20, 2006 6:40 AM

I know very little about this stuff but my impression is that TMCC2 is like a new level of capabilities which has a lot more yet to come, like the difference between computer chips as they jumped 8 - 16 - 32 bit.

Right now its probably not worth having unless you can afford it and want it just because of whats being offered but a year or two later I reckon it'll be a lot better. In the meantime I'll stay with the old fashioned way but I probably would have bought TMCC within the next year had they not introduced the new one, so I'll just wait a bit longer thats all.

What I want if I'm going to make the switch, is a control board video screen about laptop size which shows my layout in diagram form with touch screen operation of the turnouts and acessories and onboard or trackside video feeds so you can see what the engineer or a train spotter would. 

Looking at that big desktop sized model that the CABs fit into on either side, the blank space seems to suggest a place for a future upgrade like I hope for.  The difference between DCS and TMCC reminds me of the early days of the Amiga/Atari ST versus PC clones with DCS being the former which came out ahead by a long way at first but in doing so backed themselves into a corner, development wise. I dont know enough to have anything to back up that impression though.

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Posted by Nick12DMC on Monday, November 20, 2006 1:51 AM

As someone who has TMCC for just under a year I probably won't upgrade right away. I do aggree that the new CAB 2 is a nice looking bit of kit and has lots of intresting features.

My main concern however is if Lionel have done enough testing with the new system. For use on this side of the pond the system really needs to be 50Hz compatible. Orignal TMCC was and then the R2LC design changed and it caused quiet a few problems.

With recent history showing the CW-80 and Trainsounds not working correctly with 50Hz you can understand the concern.

I really do hope Lionel have tested TMCC 2 on 50Hz after all guys I guess its made in China and China has 50Hz mains power!

If you need a UK Beta tester let me knowSmile [:)]

Nick

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted by Buckeye Riveter on Sunday, November 19, 2006 11:20 PM

 ChiefEagles wrote:
Probably March 07.  BTW: Ben10Ben, is the more features DCS has the slow response of the handheld, the poor sounds or the complicated soft keys.  Maybe its the long menu or typing in an engine name. Question [?]  OH, its the slow response of the DCS remote wheel.  Buckeye and John, maybe I need to OIL my DCS remote wheel. Laugh [(-D]Laugh [(-D]

Chief, yes it is about that time of the year again when lubrication of the DCS remote is required.  This year I think you should try one of those new synthetic blends.  But first remember to soak the unit in soapy water to remove the residue.

Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum. Smile, Wink & Grin

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Posted by ChiefEagles on Sunday, November 19, 2006 10:27 PM
Probably March 07.  BTW: Ben10Ben, is the more features DCS has the slow response of the handheld, the poor sounds or the complicated soft keys.  Maybe its the long menu or typing in an engine name. Question [?]  OH, its the slow response of the DCS remote wheel.  Buckeye and John, maybe I need to OIL my DCS remote wheel. Laugh [(-D]Laugh [(-D]

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Posted by RR Redneck on Sunday, November 19, 2006 9:39 PM
Well you fellas know where I could possibly get upgrades from? I mean is Lionel sellin them yet?

Lionel collector, stuck in an N scaler's modelling space.

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Posted by csxt30 on Sunday, November 19, 2006 7:25 PM

That's right Buckeye !! It took my Grandaughter at least 3 or 4 seconds to get the hang of it !! It's very complicated !! Laugh [(-D]Laugh [(-D]Laugh [(-D]

 

These two really had a hard time learning to use it !! I didn't think they were ever gonna' figure it out !!  

Wait till Keith sees this  !!  Big Smile [:D]Big Smile [:D]

Thanks, John

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Posted by Buckeye Riveter on Sunday, November 19, 2006 7:03 PM

We all know that kids can't run TMCC................

especially girls!    NOT!

Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum. Smile, Wink & Grin

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Posted by chuck on Sunday, November 19, 2006 4:47 PM
The new PS-3 game system has a $500-$600 price tag.  The games for most of these sytems run more than our box cars.  While cost is often brought up as a reason people don't "buy" into the hobby,  I don't "buy" into that line of reasoning.  Other issues like time and space (or lack thereof) are more likely to "side track" potential new blood.

I've watched the Glancy group pass out CAB-1's to little kids at shows.  They all seem to pick up on how it works with little or no instruction.  If anything, they find it too simple so I don't see how a TMCC "light" is going to accomplish much.  If you hand a kid a remote for a:

1)Train
2)Car/Truck/Tank
3)Airplane/hellicopter

Which will they prefer to play with?  My monies on plane/chopper and then the car/tank and in last place, the train.  Two and three require almost no set up and just open space.  You need a layout for number 1.
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Posted by brianel027 on Sunday, November 19, 2006 4:30 PM

Red, going back to your post on video games, I think the Legacy stystem should have been dumped all together in favor of new 027 products for the beginner market. Maybe an affordable, basic simplified version of TMCC, but for kids that could come with every train set.

Again, Legacy is just one more reason why this is not a kid friendly hobby and certainly not affordable for working class families with children.

But the train companies are more interested in the short term over the long term, and that means appeasing the adults who are nver happy with the last trains they got...... hmmmm, kinda like children. Neil Young says Legacy is going to revolutionize the hobby. You can't have a revolution if no one shows up.

What would revolutionize the hobby is if the TOY train companies started putting the emphasis and bulk of their efforts into making and marketing TOY trains and said the heck to YORK and all the adults.

And that my friends, would really start the fireworks.

brianel, Agent 027

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Posted by ben10ben on Sunday, November 19, 2006 4:28 PM
I agree, what would you want them to wait for?

Although I think that the original TMCC is great, if nothing else a new handheld is long overdue. The CAB-1 first came out in '94, and the command base in '95. That's a pretty darn long time in the electronics world.

DCS has had TMCC beat feature-wise for five years now.

I think that it's admirable of Lionel to design a system that does everything that DCS does plus more, as well as maintain the inherent reliability of RF communication and keep everything totally backward and forward compatible.

I'll certainly be buying a base/remote kit, as well as a few upgrade modules for my TMCC engines. Hopefully I'll get a factory TMCCII engine before too long.
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Posted by chuck on Sunday, November 19, 2006 3:58 PM
It should be able to control whatever it did before, but may not be able to handle new features, aka a Legacy loco may be treated as an older TMCC unit?
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Posted by CSXect on Sunday, November 19, 2006 3:39 PM
But will DCS still be able to run the new TMCC??
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Posted by csxt30 on Sunday, November 19, 2006 3:35 PM

 ChiefEagles wrote:
Fine for me.  Looking forward to it. 

Sign - Ditto [#ditto]

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Posted by ChiefEagles on Sunday, November 19, 2006 3:33 PM
Fine for me.  Looking forward to it. 

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Posted by chuck on Sunday, November 19, 2006 3:24 PM
 RR Redneck wrote:
I honestly think that Lionel is pullin a makin a mistake offerin it this soon. Dont get me wrong, I like it and am thinkin of buyin a system, but I would have waited a couple more years aleast to put it on the market.


The original system was released just over 10 years ago.  The Legacy update allows for complete backwards compatibility (including simple upgarde paths for current modular board loco's) as well as support for many of the third party modifications to the original system.

What where they supposed to "wait for"?
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Posted by gvdobler on Sunday, November 19, 2006 3:21 PM

Companies never want to wait to put something on the market.  They also don't want to say "We are getting ready to come out with something better than what we have" because people will stop buying the current product and wait for the better system.

Why would they want to wait 2 years to put out something they have now?

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Your thoughts on the new TMCC II Legacy System
Posted by RR Redneck on Sunday, November 19, 2006 2:56 PM
I honestly think that Lionel is pullin a makin a mistake offerin it this soon. Dont get me wrong, I like it and am thinkin of buyin a system, but I would have waited a couple more years aleast to put it on the market.

Lionel collector, stuck in an N scaler's modelling space.

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