Your thoughts on the new TMCC II Legacy System

[Deputy]

For feature richness, DCS is clearly superior, and for controlling PS2 locos it's clearly superior, and some folks like the thumbwheel better than than the red dial of the cab-1.  

You pays your money, and do what you like :).

Bingo Neil!

I look very carefully at what I buy in the areas of locos. I have a couple of non-TMCC/non-DCS that are just "goofing around" locos. A NYC Lionel 6-28650 docksider and a Lionel 6-1502 Yard Chief trainset that has an 0-4-0 loco. I also have two Williams NYC GP-9s that I will most likely convert (or have converted) to Proto 2. Other than that, EVERYTHING I own is either TMCC or Proto 2 DCS. I have no urge to seek out a post-war Sante Fe F3 in mint condition or any other postwar loco (well...maybe a minty 682 Turbine). Even the locos I currently own that don't have DCS/TMCC will have boxcars with railsounds running behind them SOMEWHERE  

Dep

P.S. My power is one lonely Z-4000 MTH transformer. If I need more, that's what I'll buy again. 

P.S.S. Not sure about the battery comment, but if it refers to loco batteries, I am going to replace all mine with this one: http://www.jandwelectronics.com/

 

[ChiefEagles]

Power, I have 3 PW ZW's and 2 PW KW's and lots of 1033 bricks.  Don't need all that power but got it cheap.  I run big lashups [even bigger when I get the two room layout going].  One note, with TMCC [unless running in conventional mode] you don't need a battery.    Also, if they [TMCC equiped] are on an unpowered siding and I apply power, they don't startup [and MTH starts up immediately in conventional mode].   Now if MTH was wise, they would make upgrades that would handle these quirks.   To convert older non-command engines, very reasonable from Digital Dynamics and a little more from TAS.  DCS, dig out the money guys.  I've bought PS1 engines cheap, pulled the "guts" and added TMCC and Railsounds.  Cheaper than buying a new one from MTH with PS2.  Not slanting the subject toward TMCC, just facts.

[nblum]

The main problem with DCS in conventional mode is that the TIU variable output starting voltage is too high for some locomotives thus you get rabbit starts.  Speed range and precision in DCS conventional mode is also noticeably inferior to the TMCC/TPC/Powermaster equivalent technology.

The location of the fuses (which weren't present at all in the TIU at introduction) is another issue, but that's another list :).

My take,  Lionel is not only not playing catch up with TMCC II in some people's opinions, because for some issues (simplicity, reliability, sound quality,  conventional mode control), TMCC I is still superior to DCS even though it was introduced six years prior to DCS. 

For feature richness, DCS is clearly superior, and for controlling PS2 locos it's clearly superior, and some folks like the thumbwheel better than than the red dial of the cab-1.  

You pays your money, and do what you like :).

[Deputy]

Chief's not talking about buying new locos and running them with conventional, he's talking about running conventional locos along side TMCC locos.

For that, TMCC with a TPC is far superior to DCS. It has several hundred speed steps, plus can put up to 400 watts on the track, and even has preprogrammed button pushes for MTH's PS1 engines(which don't have command control). DCS is limited to 180 watts, plus I believe it only has 128 speed steps. The red wheel tends to be a lot better for controlling, as you can spin it fast and cycle through all several hundred steps quickly, or spin it slowly and go step by step. You have to click the wheel on DCS once for every step.

Well I am still mystified about the complaints. Where/why are you guys needing all this wattage??? Are you powering track accessories AND locos from the same connections? Are you using 80 watt transformers? And this weird speed complaint...I NEVER run my locos at full speed.

"A total of 120 speed steps are available in each Proto-Sound 2.0 equipped locomotive giving the user a theoretical speed range of 1 to 120 scale miles per hour."

 Are you guys running RACES with your locos or what???? I can see if you want your locos to run at prototypical SLOWER speeds. But that's not a problem with the controller...that's a problem with the design of old locos. Why in God's name would you ever need to go "through all several hundred steps quickly". Are you guys doing wheel burnouts with the locos or what?? If you can't effectively control multiple locos with the DCS, then maybe you are trying to control TOO MANY locos at one time. Again...not the fault of DCS...that's a human flaw. I just don't see the problems you guys are complaining about. Are you trying to run 5 trains simultaneously????

The ONLY problem I have with MTH, is I have trouble accessing their website.

As far as Proto 2 sounds..."The sound system uses a much wider dynamic sampling rate than anything else available to model railroaders. In plain English that means the high notes are higher and low notes are lower for a much more realistic sound range. When Proto-Sound 2.0 plays, you can practically feel the rumble of a passing train."

I can't argue with that. They sound just fine to me

Dep

[chuck]

Yes, the only thing you need DCS for and the only thing it does well is run PS-2 locomotives in a command control environment. If you want to run anything else, it does it anywhere from adequately to poorly.

There are a lot of folks that want to run their older trains with remote throttle capability and finer speed control without having to modify the locomotive or who work on club layouts that support really long trains with mu'd loco's and strings of illumintaed passenger cars that can pull more than 10 amps in a power block. If a vendor wants to ignore these potential customers, that's their perogative.

Note: Original MTH company recommended upgrade path for MTH PS-1 loco's was to remove the electronics package and install an aftermarket TMCC system from Digital Dynamics/Train America Studios, aka they had no upgrade path. Even the current upgrade path only allows for DC can motors with fly wheel support.

The best sound system is from Phoenix Sound Systems in Ann Arbor, MI:

http://www.phoenixsound.com/

These are menat to be used in larger scale models (on board amp is rated for 6 watts as opposed to the 1-1.5 watts is most current toy train sound systems) with larger speakers (aka Graden Scale 4-6 inch) and their electronics are primarily used in DCC installations although there is an analog trigger board available.

[ChiefEagles]

Outstanding Ben.  DCS is crap when trying to run conventional with remote.  I used the transformer handle and the whisle lever on the transformer.  DCS seemed as if it did not want to blow conventional air whistles.  Also crazy ramping up of voltage always started them off with a gallop.  I got introduced to the TPC by Roy M.  Man was that a change.  I run all my conventionals [PW mainly] with my TMCC remote.  Blows air whistles.  Starts up easier.  Can feather the speed [voltage] with the brake and boost buttons.   Use the aux and number 1 button to set minimum voltage and the aux and number 4 button to recapture that setting.  Aux and number 0 shuts power off and you go back with the aux and 4.  The red knob on TMCC responds faster than the wheel on the DCS remote.   Now when it comes to horns and diesel sounds, DCS and PS2 are junk.   I started with DCS.  I use it some.  I added TMCC and found a "new world".  I still recommend both systems for a complete operation. 

Posts like this really amaze me. Seems like people insist on trying to pat their head and rub their belly at the same time and then complain when they can't do it effectively. WHY FIGHT PROGRESS??? If you don't want to run trains with todays advanced controls, I can certainly understand the nostalgia thing. But buying a high-tech loco and then trying to run it the way they did over 50 years ago????
MTH already suggests you 'take your loco to your local dealer and let loose the advantages of DCS and Proto 2.' It's fairly obvious that the Proto locos are MADE TO RUN BEST ON DCS. I suspect MTH put conventional controls on the PS2 locos as a "temporary fix" for those who haven't upgraded to DCS. I doubt very much they expected people to spend hundreds of dollars on a PS2 loco and then CONTINUE TO RUN THEM in DCS forever. Considering the contortions you have to do to operate PS2 items on a conventional transformer, I think people would be just plain nuts to keep resisting the upgrade to DCS. Sure doen't make much sense to me.

As far as opinions about air whistles and horns...well...you know what they say about OPINIONS
From what I've heard of TMCC and Proto 2 locos, they both sound fine. I can't help wonder if some folks aren't listening to these sounds with "Lionel ears".

Dep

I hear with both ears!!!!!  You need to get the NY wax out of yours if you think PS2 sounds great.  I recommend both systems.  I think MTH needs to badly upgrade their sounds.  All the other, I speak from experience and not brand predigest [you notice I said I had DCS first]. 

[ben10ben]

Chief's not talking about buying new locos and running them with conventional, he's talking about running conventional locos along side TMCC locos.

For that, TMCC with a TPC is far superior to DCS. It has several hundred speed steps, plus can put up to 400 watts on the track, and even has preprogrammed button pushes for MTH's PS1 engines(which don't have command control). DCS is limited to 180 watts, plus I believe it only has 128 speed steps. The red wheel tends to be a lot better for controlling, as you can spin it fast and cycle through all several hundred steps quickly, or spin it slowly and go step by step. You have to click the wheel on DCS once for every step.

[Deputy]

Outstanding Ben.  DCS is crap when trying to run conventional with remote.  I used the transformer handle and the whisle lever on the transformer.  DCS seemed as if it did not want to blow conventional air whistles.  Also crazy ramping up of voltage always started them off with a gallop.  I got introduced to the TPC by Roy M.  Man was that a change.  I run all my conventionals [PW mainly] with my TMCC remote.  Blows air whistles.  Starts up easier.  Can feather the speed [voltage] with the brake and boost buttons.   Use the aux and number 1 button to set minimum voltage and the aux and number 4 button to recapture that setting.  Aux and number 0 shuts power off and you go back with the aux and 4.  The red knob on TMCC responds faster than the wheel on the DCS remote.   Now when it comes to horns and diesel sounds, DCS and PS2 are junk.   I started with DCS.  I use it some.  I added TMCC and found a "new world".  I still recommend both systems for a complete operation. 

Posts like this really amaze me. Seems like people insist on trying to pat their head and rub their belly at the same time and then complain when they can't do it effectively. WHY FIGHT PROGRESS??? If you don't want to run trains with todays advanced controls, I can certainly understand the nostalgia thing. But buying a high-tech loco and then trying to run it the way they did over 50 years ago????
MTH already suggests you 'take your loco to your local dealer and let loose the advantages of DCS and Proto 2.' It's fairly obvious that the Proto locos are MADE TO RUN BEST ON DCS. I suspect MTH put conventional controls on the PS2 locos as a "temporary fix" for those who haven't upgraded to DCS. I doubt very much they expected people to spend hundreds of dollars on a PS2 loco and then CONTINUE TO RUN THEM in DCS forever. Considering the contortions you have to do to operate PS2 items on a conventional transformer, I think people would be just plain nuts to keep resisting the upgrade to DCS. Sure doen't make much sense to me.

As far as opinions about air whistles and horns...well...you know what they say about OPINIONS
From what I've heard of TMCC and Proto 2 locos, they both sound fine. I can't help wonder if some folks aren't listening to these sounds with "Lionel ears".

Dep

[ChiefEagles]

"MTH is concentrating on AUTHENTIC whistles and sounds...not playing songs on the whistle."

"Authentic" whistles don't play a prerecorded crossing sequence every time you pull the cord. Lionel's whole way of going about putting the whistles together is a whole lot more "authentic" than MTH's because it's random and variable Basically, the Lionel boards have a big cache of snippets of whistle sounds. When you press the whistle button, it assembles them together randomly, so the whistle sounds (slightly) different every time. The ability to "play" the whistle as you can the valve on a real steam locomotive that has been added to Legacy should make things really "authentic".

"Why work on features for conventional control when the obvious move is to DCC/TMCC? Yeah THAT makes a lot of sense. "

At last count, only 25% of the people buying trains were using any form of command control. There are plenty of people, too, like myself, who use command control but also have large postwar collections and consider the ability to operate conventional trains very important. Lionel does a whole lot more for us as far as command control in this respect.

Outstanding Ben.  DCS is crap when trying to run conventional with remote.  I used the transformer handle and the whisle lever on the transformer.  DCS seemed as if it did not want to blow conventional air whistles.  Also crazy ramping up of voltage always started them off with a gallop.  I got introduced to the TPC by Roy M.  Man was that a change.  I run all my conventionals [PW mainly] with my TMCC remote.  Blows air whistles.  Starts up easier.  Can feather the speed [voltage] with the brake and boost buttons.   Use the aux and number 1 button to set minimum voltage and the aux and number 4 button to recapture that setting.  Aux and number 0 shuts power off and you go back with the aux and 4.  The red knob on TMCC responds faster than the wheel on the DCS remote.   Now when it comes to horns and diesel sounds, DCS and PS2 are junk.   I started with DCS.  I use it some.  I added TMCC and found a "new world".  I still recommend both systems for a complete operation. 

[Deputy]

Let me, then, state that 25% of the people currently operating 3-rail O gauge trains use command control, whether TMCC or DCS, in some capacity.

Again...be VERY careful about using numbers to prove a point. The latest Classic Toy Trains has a big article on Command Control (January, 2007, Page 81). They state:

"Today, according to our reader surveys, 35% of toy train operators use a command control system to operate their trains. That percentage has INCREASED (my caps) steadily over the years, and many readers report they use both MTH and Lionel systems."

That certainly seems to fly in the face of those that insist that Command Control is only used by a select few. Again...you have to be careful about the numbers because most folks who buy or subscribe to Classic Toy Trains are probably more "hard core" than the average Joe Shmoe who runs out the day before Christmas and buys a Lionel trainset for his kid. Then again...I wonder how many average Joe Shomes actually BUY the Lionel trainsets?

Dep

[csxt30]

The sounds are still available. This site has air horn sounds !! I think there are some sites with original whistle sounds too !!

http://atsf.railfan.net/airhorns/

http://www.dieselairhorns.com/collection.html

John

[ben10ben]

My mistake, but the study I was referencing only considerd 3-rail O gauge trains. That is a pretty localized study group.

Let me, then, state that 25% of the people currently operating 3-rail O gauge trains use command control, whether TMCC or DCS, in some capacity.

I suspect that the numbers are higher in HO and N(yes, N) gauge. Why? Have you ever heard of DCC? It's this huge open standard for command control that's used by pretty much all the manufacturers in these two scales, and there are a lot of them. And, why, pray tell, do you think that N scalers would not benefit from command control? They can get just as much benefit from it as we can.

" BTW...THESE ARE NOT REAL TRAINS!!!! Sheesh...get over it!"
I feel the same way. At the same time, though, you said that MTH was focusing on "authentic" sounds rather than gimmicks, and I couldn't help but point out how the so-called gimmicks made Lionel sounds more "authentic" to use your words.

[Deputy]

Hmmmm...I just got my copy of Greenberg's 2007 Pocket Priceguide. They have an interesting timeline that ends in 2004 with "Lionel LLC files for bankruptcy after rival MTH is awarded $40 million in a lawsuit over stolen blueprints." Maybe that's why the Lionel fans are so testy over mention of MTH. 

"At last count, only 25% of the people buying trains were using any form of command control. There are plenty of people, too, like myself, who use command control but also have large postwar collections and consider the ability to operate conventional trains very important. Lionel does a whole lot more for us as far as command control in this respect."

That's a REAL generalized statement. People buying WHAT trains? HO? G-Scale? N-Scale? Why would you need command control with a N-scale train? You gotta be REAL careful about those "counts" and data. Numbers can be distorted to proove the world is square if you try hard enough. Postwar Lionel WILL operate on MTH DCS controls. You just have to enter the loco manually. Actually, Lionel seems to be moving further and further AWAY FROM transformer control, other than it's very basic cheapy trainsets, considering the big push they are giving TMCC II. I see this opposition to TMCC and DCS as similar to the opposition people had to fuel injection over carburetion. It was just a matter of time before fuel injection won out and carburetion was TOTALLY eliminated from production autos. Even motorcycles are making the change. I don't doubt that only the most basic, cheapy Lionel sets will be transormer-only in the future.

I think I would rather pick and choose what I am told, rather than be spoon-fed obvious one-sided propaganda from Lionel devotees. I own both Lionel and MTH...I see benefits in BOTH. But I sure won't wave any Lionel loyalty flags. I've heard many samples of both Lionel and MTH sounds. Do they sound like real trains? They certainly do to me. At least, given the limitations of the speakers and sound systems in the toy trains they are installed in. Some obviously sound better than others. What I question are the personal opinions of those who say "this doesn't sound like what I heard back in 1952 when a steam engine went past my house". Yeah right. So people have photographic SOUND memories that don't disintegrate with age. And the simple fact is these are TOY TRAINS and the best you are gonna get is a digital recording sample of a real train. BTW...THESE ARE NOT REAL TRAINS!!!! Sheesh...get over it!

Dep

 

 

[ben10ben]

"MTH is concentrating on AUTHENTIC whistles and sounds...not playing songs on the whistle."

"Authentic" whistles don't play a prerecorded crossing sequence every time you pull the cord. Lionel's whole way of going about putting the whistles together is a whole lot more "authentic" than MTH's because it's random and variable Basically, the Lionel boards have a big cache of snippets of whistle sounds. When you press the whistle button, it assembles them together randomly, so the whistle sounds (slightly) different every time. The ability to "play" the whistle as you can the valve on a real steam locomotive that has been added to Legacy should make things really "authentic".

"Why work on features for conventional control when the obvious move is to DCC/TMCC? Yeah THAT makes a lot of sense. "

At last count, only 25% of the people buying trains were using any form of command control. There are plenty of people, too, like myself, who use command control but also have large postwar collections and consider the ability to operate conventional trains very important. Lionel does a whole lot more for us as far as command control in this respect.

[chuck]

"MTH is concentrating on AUTHENTIC whistles and sounds...not playing songs on the whistle."

Yeah, they (MTH) have been saying that since 1994 when they introduced PS-1, and again in 2001 when they introduced PS-2.  Wer'e about to enter 2007 and they still haven't delivered.  Oh, wait, I forgot about your other statement:

"Personally, I limit myslef to about 1/3 of what they print"

Good plan, this way you can pick and chose what you want to "believe".  If a magazine/newspaper missqouted me that badly and that often, I wouldn't talk to them, period.

BTW, real train horns and whistles are "playable".  I could tell who was behind the cab of the local commuter line I used to live near just by the way they handled the horn.

BTBTW, Command Control is still very much in the minority as far as toy trains are concerned and there are a lot of people who would like to control their conventional trains as realistically as possible without having to modify them for Command Control.  This is why you shouldn't overlook that part of the market.

[Deputy]

Mr. Wolf's coments/feelings re Lionel's publication of the codes and his refusal to release his own or license any of his technology are a matter of public record from interviews in CTT, OGRR, Inc, and several newspapers.

Re "catsup", let me know when MTH releases hardware/software upgrades to allow more than 180 watts of power per block/district, more than 32 speed steps in conventional control, starting voltages in conventional control less than 5.5 volts, the ability to "play" whistle/horns, single wire hookups, , literally 15 minute board swap upgrades, ...... 

Well if you believe EVERYTHING that the media prints...that's YOUR thing. Personally, I limit myslef to about 1/3 of what they print as the truth and the rest as hype to sell THEIR product. "Controversy sells".

As to those features you describe...if there were an actual NEED for them, perhaps MTH would release them. Why work on features for conventional control when the obvious move is to DCC/TMCC? Yeah THAT makes a lot of sense.
MTH is concentrating on AUTHENTIC whistles and sounds...not playing songs on the whistle. Single wire hookups...oh brother. Sure is complicated to hook up MTH's TWO wires. I'm sooooo confused. How about Lionel giving ACCURATE instructions on how to hook up their "cheapy" transformer in their low budget train sets? Since everyone seems to think the cheapy sets are what is keeping Lionel afloat, you'd think they'd at least issue a correction for those that buy them.

Dep

 

[chuck]

Mr. Wolf's coments/feelings re Lionel's publication of the codes and his refusal to release his own or license any of his technology are a matter of public record from interviews in CTT, OGRR, Inc, and several newspapers.

Re "catsup", let me know when MTH releases hardware/software upgrades to allow more than 180 watts of power per block/district, more than 32 speed steps in conventional control, starting voltages in conventional control less than 5.5 volts, the ability to "play" whistle/horns, single wire hookups, , literally 15 minute board swap upgrades, ...... 

[Deputy]

Geee...I didn't realize some people had investments in Lionel stock . I love the "rumor mill" and how it makes claims about what certain people said and did. Heck, just last week I heard from a guy that knows a guy that was present at the time a Lionel bigwig said "I wish Lionel worked as well as MTH". Sheesh!

Look at it this way...without the competiton from MTH and others, Lionel would take their own sweet time about releasing upgrades.

Personally, I STILL haven't seen anything about the "new" TMCC II that would make it worth spending a large chunk of cash to upgrade current locos or even buy new locos with the new system. Still looks like Lionel playing "catsup" with MTH.

Dep

 

[chuck]

"That's why MTH is so successful...they allow you to use BOTH DCS and TMCC within one system."

Yeah, that's why Mike Wolf made fun of Lionel for publishing their control codes and that's also why he threatens to sue anybody that tries to reverse engineer the DCS codes?

[nblum]

I think it's likely Lionel will ultimately license TMCC II to others after it has debuted. Right now, the system is owned not by Lionel but Lou Kovach and Neil Young's company CTC.  Obviously the decision to license will be made, in all likelihood by CTC and Lionel together.  No one licenses new technology like this to its competitors from the getgo.  As Chuck points out,
upgrading existing K-Line, Atlas, Weaver and 3rd Rail TMCC I locos to TMCC II may well be possible by adding the Lionel boards, which probably will be comparable in cost to what these competitors would have to charge to license the system.  Right now, Lionel's development of TMCC II is a sunk cost and the fastest way to get payback is selling lots of your own trains.  At some point in the year or two or three after introduction, licensing to Atlas, et al. is very likely is my guess.

As far as dubious business decisions, Lionel has no monopoly on these.  Can you say "closed system," "internal battery," "no upgrades will be available" and "serial port downloads only?"  ;)

[Deputy]

OK, you just spent $2 mil and 4-5 years developing something new and you're going to license the technology to your competitors?  This is after you spent money making sure their hacks of your original system that were done outside of the original license agreement will work under the new system? 

You are if you have any smarts and look into the future. They licensed their old system for use by other loco makers and Lionel didn't go under. Doing so encouraged people to buy TMCC-equipped locos and that means people also had to buy the components/system from Lionel to take advantage of it. Licensing the new suystem to competitors will ensure that the system is successful and has a long life span. And it will be an additional source of revenue for Lionel. Trying to keep technology secret and exclusive is just plain short-sighted and stoopid nowadays. Many computer companies allow their software to be open-ended and ENOCURAGE smaller companies to make add-ons and tweaks for the software. A perfect example is Microsoft Train Simulator. That program is still being used today, even though the original developers gave up on it YEARS ago. Second party software makers keep it alive by making add-ons for it. That's why MTH is so successful...they allow you to use BOTH DCS and TMCC within one system. I doubt very much that the limited offerings from Atlas are any threat to Lionel. But a technology alliance with Atlas and Williams would certainly give a boost to ALL THREE companies and would really put the squeeze on MTH...Lionel's only REAL competition. Then again...Lionel has a history of unwise business decisions. Restricting access to this would just be another in a long list of them.

Dep

[Anonymous]

Hmmm, I guess just one more reason to go DCC........

 

Smokebox

[chuck]

OK, you just spent $2 mil and 4-5 years developing something new and you're going to license the technology to your competitors?  This is after you spent money making sure their hacks of your original system that were done outside of the original license agreement will work under the new system? 

[Deputy]

I wonder if TMCC II will be offered to Atlas and the others.....

 

 

From what I've read, no.

WOW! There's a major marketing blunder! The current Atlas offerings have TMCC available. I can see them withholding the technology from MTH (who may already have it), but if they don't offer it to Atlas and other loco makers, well....that won't go over very well with the high end buyers. Way to go Lionel!

Dep

[chuck]

"I wonder if TMCC II will be offered to Atlas and the others....."

The original license is for the original system.  As an owner, you could swap out the receiver board for a legacy board when these become available. 

[Joe Hohmann]

I wonder if TMCC II will be offered to Atlas and the others.....

 

 

From what I've read, no.

[Anonymous]

I wonder if TMCC II will be offered to Atlas and the others.....

 

Smokebox

[Deputy]

In the future, all Lionel locomotives, or most all, will have TMCC II, so I suppose if someone were planning on buying Lionel locos in the future, waiting and purchasing TMCC II rather than investing in TMCC I would make sense.  Since I've been using TMCC I for 10 years + and am in no hurry, I'm happy to let others be the pioneers and deal with any teething issues :)>.

Neil: Yep...keywords are "in the future". Since I have a mix of Lionel/MTH/Williams, with the majority being MTH, and I already have the components for TMCC I, not much sense in me moving up to TMCC II. I'm with you in the idea of letting someone else be the trailblazers with dealing with any teething problems that might arise.

Dep

[nblum]

".unless you are buying a TMCC II loco, what's the point???"

In the future, all Lionel locomotives, or most all, will have TMCC II, so I suppose if someone were planning on buying Lionel locos in the future, waiting and purchasing TMCC II rather than investing in TMCC I would make sense.  Since I've been using TMCC I for 10 years + and am in no hurry, I'm happy to let others be the pioneers and deal with any teething issues :)>.

[Deputy]

Again...unless you are buying a TMCC II loco, what's the point??? $120 for TMCC which IS useable on current locos, or $250 for Legacy II which requires you also BUY a new loco to be able to use it's features fully...whatever they might be.

 

Ads...Target has ads for the Lionel train they are selling.

Dep