Your thoughts on the new TMCC II Legacy System

[RR Redneck]

I honestly think that Lionel is pullin a makin a mistake offerin it this soon. Dont get me wrong, I like it and am thinkin of buyin a system, but I would have waited a couple more years aleast to put it on the market.

[gvdobler]

Companies never want to wait to put something on the market.  They also don't want to say "We are getting ready to come out with something better than what we have" because people will stop buying the current product and wait for the better system.

Why would they want to wait 2 years to put out something they have now?

[chuck]

I honestly think that Lionel is pullin a makin a mistake offerin it this soon. Dont get me wrong, I like it and am thinkin of buyin a system, but I would have waited a couple more years aleast to put it on the market.

The original system was released just over 10 years ago.  The Legacy update allows for complete backwards compatibility (including simple upgarde paths for current modular board loco's) as well as support for many of the third party modifications to the original system.

What where they supposed to "wait for"?

[ChiefEagles]

Fine for me.  Looking forward to it. 

[csxt30]

Fine for me.  Looking forward to it. 

[CSXect]

But will DCS still be able to run the new TMCC??

[chuck]

It should be able to control whatever it did before, but may not be able to handle new features, aka a Legacy loco may be treated as an older TMCC unit?

[ben10ben]

I agree, what would you want them to wait for?

Although I think that the original TMCC is great, if nothing else a new handheld is long overdue. The CAB-1 first came out in '94, and the command base in '95. That's a pretty darn long time in the electronics world.

DCS has had TMCC beat feature-wise for five years now.

I think that it's admirable of Lionel to design a system that does everything that DCS does plus more, as well as maintain the inherent reliability of RF communication and keep everything totally backward and forward compatible.

I'll certainly be buying a base/remote kit, as well as a few upgrade modules for my TMCC engines. Hopefully I'll get a factory TMCCII engine before too long.

[brianel027]

Red, going back to your post on video games, I think the Legacy stystem should have been dumped all together in favor of new 027 products for the beginner market. Maybe an affordable, basic simplified version of TMCC, but for kids that could come with every train set.

Again, Legacy is just one more reason why this is not a kid friendly hobby and certainly not affordable for working class families with children.

But the train companies are more interested in the short term over the long term, and that means appeasing the adults who are nver happy with the last trains they got...... hmmmm, kinda like children. Neil Young says Legacy is going to revolutionize the hobby. You can't have a revolution if no one shows up.

What would revolutionize the hobby is if the TOY train companies started putting the emphasis and bulk of their efforts into making and marketing TOY trains and said the heck to YORK and all the adults.

And that my friends, would really start the fireworks.

[chuck]

The new PS-3 game system has a $500-$600 price tag.  The games for most of these sytems run more than our box cars.  While cost is often brought up as a reason people don't "buy" into the hobby,  I don't "buy" into that line of reasoning.  Other issues like time and space (or lack thereof) are more likely to "side track" potential new blood.

I've watched the Glancy group pass out CAB-1's to little kids at shows.  They all seem to pick up on how it works with little or no instruction.  If anything, they find it too simple so I don't see how a TMCC "light" is going to accomplish much.  If you hand a kid a remote for a:

1)Train
2)Car/Truck/Tank
3)Airplane/hellicopter

Which will they prefer to play with?  My monies on plane/chopper and then the car/tank and in last place, the train.  Two and three require almost no set up and just open space.  You need a layout for number 1.

[Buckeye Riveter]

We all know that kids can't run TMCC................

especially girls!    NOT!

[csxt30]

That's right Buckeye !! It took my Grandaughter at least 3 or 4 seconds to get the hang of it !! It's very complicated !!

 

These two really had a hard time learning to use it !! I didn't think they were ever gonna' figure it out !!  

Wait till Keith sees this  !! 

Thanks, John

[RR Redneck]

Well you fellas know where I could possibly get upgrades from? I mean is Lionel sellin them yet?

[ChiefEagles]

Probably March 07.  BTW: Ben10Ben, is the more features DCS has the slow response of the handheld, the poor sounds or the complicated soft keys.  Maybe its the long menu or typing in an engine name.   OH, its the slow response of the DCS remote wheel.  Buckeye and John, maybe I need to OIL my DCS remote wheel.

[Buckeye Riveter]

Probably March 07.  BTW: Ben10Ben, is the more features DCS has the slow response of the handheld, the poor sounds or the complicated soft keys.  Maybe its the long menu or typing in an engine name.   OH, its the slow response of the DCS remote wheel.  Buckeye and John, maybe I need to OIL my DCS remote wheel.

Chief, yes it is about that time of the year again when lubrication of the DCS remote is required.  This year I think you should try one of those new synthetic blends.  But first remember to soak the unit in soapy water to remove the residue.

[Nick12DMC]

As someone who has TMCC for just under a year I probably won't upgrade right away. I do aggree that the new CAB 2 is a nice looking bit of kit and has lots of intresting features.

My main concern however is if Lionel have done enough testing with the new system. For use on this side of the pond the system really needs to be 50Hz compatible. Orignal TMCC was and then the R2LC design changed and it caused quiet a few problems.

With recent history showing the CW-80 and Trainsounds not working correctly with 50Hz you can understand the concern.

I really do hope Lionel have tested TMCC 2 on 50Hz after all guys I guess its made in China and China has 50Hz mains power!

If you need a UK Beta tester let me know

Nick

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[thor]

I know very little about this stuff but my impression is that TMCC2 is like a new level of capabilities which has a lot more yet to come, like the difference between computer chips as they jumped 8 - 16 - 32 bit.

Right now its probably not worth having unless you can afford it and want it just because of whats being offered but a year or two later I reckon it'll be a lot better. In the meantime I'll stay with the old fashioned way but I probably would have bought TMCC within the next year had they not introduced the new one, so I'll just wait a bit longer thats all.

What I want if I'm going to make the switch, is a control board video screen about laptop size which shows my layout in diagram form with touch screen operation of the turnouts and acessories and onboard or trackside video feeds so you can see what the engineer or a train spotter would. 

Looking at that big desktop sized model that the CABs fit into on either side, the blank space seems to suggest a place for a future upgrade like I hope for.  The difference between DCS and TMCC reminds me of the early days of the Amiga/Atari ST versus PC clones with DCS being the former which came out ahead by a long way at first but in doing so backed themselves into a corner, development wise. I dont know enough to have anything to back up that impression though.

[trigtrax]

We all know that kids can't run TMCC................

It's not whether they can run TMCC.. It's whether they have an interest in toy trains at all.

Sure, drag your kids to a train show and they'll jump on any system just to use their fingers. What's their alternative? Walk from table to table to see the same trains on each one?

My opinion of Legacy will be on hold until it's actually on the market.. So far I've heard claims and hype but haven't seen the system. But for now I don't see any train or system coming close to the hysteria the PS3 created. And I don't see trains competing with the hand eye stimulation kids seem to thrive on from these video games.

DCC, DCS, TMCC I or II all belong to an age gone by. I saw a survey where our average age is either 52 or 55 ( don't quite remember, but it doesn't really matter<G>). For a variety of reasons this hobby doesn't attract the young. TMCC has been out for ten years and hasn't really had any effect on that.

[brianel027]

Good points Trigtrax. Hey, I never said kids can't run TMCC. The ones I know of that are allowed to use it, have picked it up rather quickly.

The big point I make is that they are more than likely using it on Dad's layout or Grandpa's layout, NOT THEIR OWN layout. Every single guy I know personally in the hobby today had a layout as a kid that was THEIR layout. NOT Dad's, not Grandpa's but their very own layout. And we were allowed to play on those layout's without Dad's immediate supervision.

My own postwar Lionel F3 took a good number of tumbles off our elevated trestle type layout and even a couple tumbles to the floor, yet survived and still ran, albeit with a few more scratches than previously exisited. I wonder if the kids above had a similiar mishap (again, on their own, no adult present) if the trains would hold up as well. I think not. Most TMCC equipped locos are not as rugged as were the engines most of us got as kids.... unless someone has put an upgrade into a Williams loco. And today's electronics are susecptable to failure or malfunction from simple prolonged derailments that can commonly happen when kids run trains. That wasn't the case with the locos of years gone by.

I'm not trying to start another debate on whether the trains today are better than of years gone by. Obviously most adults would say they're better today. But not necessarily better for the kids.

I sincerly doubt given the overall low market usage numbers for TMCC (and DCS which is prbably lower than TMCC) very many kids have their very own TMCC system with their very own TMCC loaded engines that they can play with on their very own layout without Daf's supervision. And I sincerly doubt that any of the kids shown above are more than wecomed to enter the train room and just start playing with trains as they wish, or to have their friends over and show them without an adult being present.

This is the big difference in the hobby today. Most layouts belong to Dad or Grandpa and the kids get to play on it sometimes, not the other way around.

It's not that TMCC in and of itself is that much more costly that a complete video game system. But when you buy the basic unit and controls, all that's left is the games. I think even most novice parents know that starting off in the train hobby is not just TMCC itself, but the layout board and lumber, the wire, the screws, the nails, the extra track, the buildings etc. etc.

The train hobby is more family participatory in my opinion, if a family is looking for that kind of activity to share together. But video games can be a useful babysitter for parents who are worn out from both working all day.

As has been discussed many times before, getting kids into the hobby is an uphill battle today. And there are lots of factors that play into it. In my opinion, newer more expensive operating systems and more expensive locomotives might make Dad and Grandpa happy (for a few minutes anyways until the next incompatible upgrade is announced), but it will do little to help grow the hobby with the youth market.

Lionel advertised a forth coming "Scout-Control" system in the 1996 catalog. It never came about though. I might guess it could have been something along the lines of the MTH IR system. I wish Lionel had put or would put the effort into a basic affordable RC system, instead of all this expensive stuff that does give many newcomers the impression (accurate or not) this is an unaffordable hobby.

[Joe Hohmann]

It's not on my "must have" list, since I only added TMCC to one of my loops on my small 5x8 layout a few weeks ago. The reason I added this is a bit unusual...it was so I could see my 100+ hand-painted MTH figures inside of my passenger cars at all times, under constant lighting. I also like the "brake" function...which lets me "squeal" the train to a stop at the station, and upon release of the button, it slowly starts-off again. This system has more features than I plan to use, so an "upgrade" would be lost on me. Yes, the TMCC engines I bought, semi-scale Lionel K4 and GG1, cost some bucks, but they will fill all my needs. The system itself cost me $100., and hooked-up with one wire to my...hold on to your hats...CW80 transformer! It works fine, and I'm pleased with this set-up. Joe

[1688torpedo]

Hello All!   CSXJohn- Your Tmcc Controller worked just fine after the Rotating Button was oiled & it sure makes a nice Fishing Reel as well!. My Tmcc System Consists of a Prewar "V" 150 watt Transformer & a Postwar ZW. No fancy handheld gimmicks for me! Take Care all.

[trigtrax]

The big point I make is that they are more than likely using it on Dad's layout or Grandpa's layout, NOT THEIR OWN layout.

Of course there's a big problem with "Their own layout" This Pennsy Freight Flyer for $200 is really an upgraded scout set. A parent isn't likely to buy junior a $1500 train set. Now as I look back on my own childhood, what I remember is my 2026 puffing away and my rotating beacon casting red and green lights on the wall.. Back in those days that was top toy technology.. It was thrilling, compared with what's available now. The kid is bored before he starts.

You hear collectors talk about a basic sets play value.. But what play value? You can take the barrels out of the gondola or turn the crank on the boom car? Fact is the train importers really need to rethink trains altogether if they want kids involved. Legacy's vibrator or five named speeds won't mean anything to children. And check whatever Big Box ads you find.. these sets are still being pushed at daddy not the kids.

[Deputy]

I'm with Joe Hohmann on this. I have TMCC only because the CAB control came for free in one of my Lionel NYC sets. So I bought the command base for $70 and I can use either TMCC or DCS.
At $300 samolies, I really don't see the pressing need for the Legacy II. It does seem to be a "jazzed up" version of the DCS system. And since the UP Big Boy is the only loco I see with Legacy II equipment, I'm not in a big rush to get it.

I see the "older/simpler is better" boys are back at it again   Glad to see all those pics of KIDS using the TMCC controllers. If a kid can master the intricate movements of Playstation and all those other button-pushing gizmos, CAB-1 should be "child's play". I also find the "lamenting" of the O-Gauge change from a kid's toy to an adults toy pretty amusing. WHAT DID YOU EXPECT??? Toy trains were displaced back in the 1960s when slot car racing nearly put them out of business. There hasn't been a return to toy trains by anyone but us old farts since then. Most kids have no idea what a steam engine is and couldn't care less. They are more interested in "pimping their rides" than seeing a Berkshire chugging along on some weird 3-rail track. I would bet that if a kid got a toy train for Christmas he probably wouldn't tell his friends for fear of being made fun of. Sorry...but that's just the way it is. While we used to spend HOURS watching our trains going in a circle or oval around the Christmas tree, kids today would rather watch Pokey Man or SpongeBob something-or-other on the boob tube. It's the 21st Century guys. While there may be a very few exceptions to the rule, kids just DON'T CARE for toy trains. Enter us old geezers who HAVE the $$$$ for the expensive toy trains. Actually, we entered a long time ago. I will not deny that I LOVE to get my hands on the fancy, high detail, fully-equipped locos. SO WHAT!!! I have the $$$$ to spend and why should I want a detail-less stripped-down loco when I can get one that accurately portrays what the original does and looks like? Last night I plunked down a grand on a Lionel Pennsylvania  6-38082  2-8-8-2 Y-3 Steam engine. I can hardly wait for it to arrive. Would I let a neighborhood kid operate it? Probably. But ONLY under my supervision. Why can't we let kids sit and play with toy trains on their own? One reason is too many kids have watched or remember Gomez Addams crashing trains together. And what is wrong with PARENTAL SUPERVISION??? Seems to me that is something VERY LACKING in kids of today anyway.

Dep

[cnw1995]

I'm interested in TMCC 2 only 'intellectually' as I don't have any command control trains: it is intriguing to see the command systems morph more closer to video game systems.

Dep, Can't wait to see a photo of your newest arrival! Certainly can't personalize everything but I got into the hobby not really because of any nostaglia for my misspent yout' but because I was able to afford a fairly low-end set as a young dad.. That said, my kids could care less about the trains in any sort of prototypical way. They love to race 'em but then I was the one who built a layout with two looooong straightaways.  They'd race anything just for the sake of seeing something go fast that they control - the trains are immaterial. The very youngest like 'em because of their size, sound, smoke and lights - the trains themselves are beside the point.

[ChiefEagles]

At $300 samolies, I really don't see the pressing need for the Legacy II. It does seem to be a "jazzed up" version of the DCS system. And since the UP Big Boy is the only loco I see with Legacy II equipment, I'm not in a big rush to get it.

Dep

Check your catalog.  Several new diesels come with it.  I have a NS GP40-2 ordered and it has it.  The only reason I am getting the II is because it comes with the Big Boy.  I do not have a quality modern steamer so I went for the Big Boy. 

[ChiefEagles]

Hello All!   CSXJohn- Your Tmcc Controller worked just fine after the Rotating Button was oiled & it sure makes a nice Fishing Reel as well!.

Keith, you must have remembered my picture I posted a couple of years ago.

[MartyE]

My turn!

I think Legacy is coming out at just the right time.  I have had TMCC for about 10 years now since I got my ACL F3s.  I love the system for it's simplicity and operation.  It has rarely given me any trouble.  As for DCS I have had it since it has come out.  It too has been trouble free minus 1 bad channel that was quickly fixed by MTH.  Where it is true that DCS has more feature, but to what end?  After the initial "That's Cool" I have probably accessed the feature just that one time other than the PFAs.  DCS gives you more but a lot of it is just "fluff".  That's not a bad thing just an opinion of some of the features.

DCS and TMCC work fine together on my layout but TMCC2 will be a must for me as I am a train techno junkie and like to play with my trains.  It sounds like TMCC2 will allow me more play value with the whistle, which whart kid doesn't love a good whistle, and such.  I like the display and become used to it on my DCS.  I know folks give MTH a lot of grief because of saying you look at the display instead of the trains but thats jsut not true in my case.  The display I glance at for reference.  The trains I watch consistantly.

TMCC2's HH is to me one of the biggest improvements with a display.  The rumble in it is one of those "Fluff" features.  I personally am looking forward to operating all 3 systems.

[dbaker48]

I definetly appreciate all the comments and opinions, BUT I AM REALLY LOOKING FORWARD TO LEGACY II

The Chief of course has a good back up plan as shown above,  (will have to come up with an optional rod adaptor), but Lionel definetly needs to release the Legacy II in response to DCS, and of course Mike will probably respond.  So who wins?  We do, more hobby features, more intrigue, bringing the technology to the hobby, even the economy.

Of course the "funnel" marketing model will probably prevail, but I am more optimistic about the future of the hobby.  Unlike some of the other toys, the trains offer a comprehensive 3d system, which continues to grow, through all the accessories etc.

I look forward to the enhancements, and being able to integrate all the old stuff too.  Where do we loose?

I'm getting my iPod capable to provide sound affects on our interium layout, while the DVD player is showing old John Wayne movies.

Dang the technology nothing ever gets finished!

[fjerome]

i agree with MartyE.

the new features sound like FUN stuff and that is my bag. if, as seems to be the case, older engines can be upgraded with some board swaps, all the better! it looks to me like Lionel has added good stuff without making it too complicated.

[Deputy]

At $300 samolies, I really don't see the pressing need for the Legacy II. It does seem to be a "jazzed up" version of the DCS system. And since the UP Big Boy is the only loco I see with Legacy II equipment, I'm not in a big rush to get it.

Dep

Check your catalog.  Several new diesels come with it.  I have a NS GP40-2 ordered and it has it.  The only reason I am getting the II is because it comes with the Big Boy.  I do not have a quality modern steamer so I went for the Big Boy. 

I see an SD40-2 with the new setup. No GP40 though. New locos aren't of much interest to me so it's still not a motivator. Newest diesel in my setup is a GP-20. I'm interested in your feedback on the Big Boy. Can't really see myself buying one, but it is kinda cool.

Dep